Announcement Dirty Little Secret - Shellder Suspect Test

[Envy]

"'I'll keep you my dirty little secret."

​

The LC Council has decided to suspect test Shellder.

Shellder has always been a source of controversy in this tier ever since we got the release of DLC. Counterplay to Shellder varies a lot through both the set it chooses to run itself, and on what specifically the opponent brings for it. With tera existing, Shellder gets to pick and choose its counters to a very high and consistent level. Typical options you could use such as Grookey to counter Shellder are very far from perfect withhaving reliable counterplay into it with many of Shellders options. Ice Shard bypasses typical counterplay such as Endure Vullaby, Grassy Glide Grookey, and Sucker Punch Stunky. Some of the most common counterplay to Shellder is Tera Water, however Shellder can make use of either Tera Rock Rock Blast or options like Tera Blast Grass or Ground to OHKO Tera Water or Steel users. Alongside that, it has multiple defensive Tera's that it can use well. Tera Ghost allows Shellder to be immune to Mienfoo's High Jump Kick and Fake Out. Shellder can also utilize a specially offensive set to get around Endure Vullaby, and secure KO's against more physically defensive options like Mienfoo alongside with having the luxury to run Overcoat with Tera Steel or Poison to be able to safely setup on Foongus and Grookey.

This being said, Shellder is not a flawless Pokémon. Shellder may struggle to get oppurtunities to setup into certain team compositions. Alongside that, the Shellder user does not know what counterplay their opponent to Shellder has and may make mistakes. If Shellder is lacking Ice Shard, Endure Vullaby and Grassy Glide Grookey may be pretty decent outs into it. If Shellder is lacking Rock Blast, Tera Water is very reliable counterplay into it. If Shellder is lacking a water move, Tera Steel is excellent counterplay into it. However, the opponent may not know the full Shellder set until it is too late and they have possibly exhausted all of their resources for Shellder over the course of the game. We encourage anyone who has an opinion to participate in the discussion and meet the requirements to vote!


NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Hacker, tazz, or a staff member.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/Hacker/tazz or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800

The period to get the suspect requirements will be <t:1773453600:F> with voting for the suspect going up after. Have fun laddering!

 

[Colin]

I expect that I will probably vote ban on shellder, but I believe there is an argument for it staying in the tier. Shellder with the correct set is broken, but it has to account for priority, it's standard counters, and defensive tera with its 3 move slots and tera. In most games, shellder will not get multiple turns to setup, and is usually not difficult to damage into priority range by attacking it on the setup turn. Crucially, shellder provides counterplay against choice scarfers, which are otherwise very difficult to punish. Shellder teams also struggle to fit as much immediate speed control, due to shellder requiring it's health to setup and therefore not contributing to a defensive core with the exception of the alolashrew and fire type matchups. Ultimately though, I believe that the uncertainty with the potential of terablast (cough, cough) or substitute sets pushes it over the edge of brokenness.

 

[Incognition]

I would like to share my personal thoughts on

This Pokemon is a fantastic late-game cleaner, the main purpose of this shell, but unlike in older gens, it has Tera, which makes it more unpredictable and therefore, threatening.

Because of Shellder, Mudbray is forced to run Tera Water most of the time, and Foongus/Mienfoo have to run Tera Steel/Water as well.

Shellder has the two most obvious moves in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast, utilising its Skill Link ability. However, players will have to guess the remaining sets:

• Ice Shard (to help with +2 Vullaby and other potential priority users)
• Protect or Tera Ghost (to prevent Fake Out pressure from Mienfoo)
• Substitute (usually on something that doesn't want to stay in against Shellder, giving it a free set up and then able to kill whatever it wants)
• Liquidation (hits harder for certain threats + STAB)
• Tera Blast (I recently saw Tera Ground Shellder to deal with steel teras etc)

Shellder can use Protect to scout potential tera types as well (e.g. Mienfoo and Foongus), enabling the player to play around it accordingly.

Shellder is also physically bulky, which helps with setting up, and paired with Pokemon like Memento Stunky, can be really difficult to deal with if you're not prepared.

Like any Pokemon, there are definitely ways around it, for example, Thunder Wave/Encore Tinkatink, predicting the correct tera type, scarf mons which outspeed +2 Shellder etc.

Although the bans are justifiable, I feel that Magby and Torchic were easier to play around than Shellder to an extent, and they were both banned. I personally think the meta will change and become healthier with different tera styles if this Pokemon were to be banned.

My proposal: BAN

 

[xzeroxman]

I would like to share my personal thoughts on

This Pokemon is a fantastic late-game cleaner, the main purpose of this shell, but unlike in older gens, it has Tera, which makes it more unpredictable and therefore, threatening.

Because of Shellder, Mudbray is forced to run Tera Water most of the time, and Foongus/Mienfoo have to run Tera Steel/Water as well.

Shellder has the two most obvious moves in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast, utilising its Skill Link ability. However, players will have to guess the remaining sets:

• Ice Shard (to help with +2 Vullaby and other potential priority users)
• Protect or Tera Ghost (to prevent Fake Out pressure from Mienfoo)
• Substitute (usually on something that doesn't want to stay in against Shellder, giving it a free set up and then able to kill whatever it wants)
• Liquidation (hits harder for certain threats + STAB)
• Tera Blast (I recently saw Tera Ground Shellder to deal with steel teras etc)

Shellder can use Protect to scout potential tera types as well (e.g. Mienfoo and Foongus), enabling the player to play around it accordingly.

Shellder is also physically bulky, which helps with setting up, and paired with Pokemon like Memento Stunky, can be really difficult to deal with if you're not prepared.

Like any Pokemon, there are definitely ways around it, for example, Thunder Wave/Encore Tinkatink, predicting the correct tera type, scarf mons which outspeed +2 Shellder etc.

Although the bans are justifiable, I feel that Magby and Torchic were easier to play around than Shellder to an extent, and they were both banned. I personally think the meta will change and become healthier with different tera styles if this Pokemon were to be banned.

My proposal: BAN

I agree that shellder needs to go. It is yet another offensive tera abuser that abuses its set vairation despite it's more up-front drawbacks. I'm not even sure that getting rid of tera blast would fix the issue in the current state (unless some mons where allowed back in because of the change). I think it just forces too many mons to be specific tera types and conserve tera defensively around what moves they *might* have. I think shellder leaving will open up opportunities for more mons to thrive and we'll see an increase in both team and tera diversity.

 

[genisu]

Shellder is fucking broken and has been since dlc 1 I've been saying this, no matter what ur team is there is a shelter set that 6-0s u and u end up set guessing and praying... Also forces all teams to carry 2-3 checks so will be interesting to see new builds. -biggest shellder abuser. P.S ban np on vullaby this set is so stupid like it's a 2hko into everything ur js fishing set/tera/rng cuz u don't have skill

 

[xzeroxman]

Shellder is fucking broken and has been since dlc 1 I've been saying this, no matter what ur team is there is a shelter set that 6-0s u and u end up set guessing and praying... Also forces all teams to carry 2-3 checks so will be interesting to see new builds. -biggest shellder abuser. P.S ban np on vullaby this set is so stupid like it's a 2hko into everything ur js fishing set/tera/rng cuz u don't have skill

There is no way they complex that lol

 

[No_safe_prayer]

Personally, I believe a Shellder ban would be a healthy move for the format. Although I'm relatively new to the tier, having played LC for about two months and peaking at around 1400 Elo, I find that facing Shellder is consistently problematic.

If your team isn't packing a specific priority move or a faster Pokémon with a super effective hit, Shellder becomes nearly impossible to handle once it gets going. If a team is even slightly weak to its coverage or lacks a reliable resist, it can snowball into a clean 6-0 sweep. This kind of dynamic feels unhealthy for competitive play and takes away from the strategic depth the tier should offer. Maybe I feel this way because I'm still new, but the meta just seems like it would be healthier without it.

 

[Eniigma]

I believe sheller can be countered by a variety of mons using tera or priority. But this thing can break the game based on its tera and set. So it's not completely broken but an overall ban seems better for the tier

 

[Coconut]

Shellder isn't busted. Almost every single top player knows this.

Shellder doesn't overcentralize teams. Checks are present and very capable, and its often pretty clear to both players what needs to happen in order for Shellder to win the game. It doesn't force specific Pokemon on teams, you were going to run something that's likely a check to it in some form anyway. It also has an array of counters and checks. Priority is present pretty much everywhere in the tier, and the two best users of priority still completely stop the clam. Shellder fails to score many key kills without tera, which means that you're likely chipping down several pokemon in order to have a chance to sweep a game.

The variety of options that Shellder has is vastly overrated. At the end of the day, Shellder has 4 moveslots and a tera slot. It cannot block Fake Out with Tera Ghost and score kills with Tera Water. It can't run both Ice Shard and Protect. Reading what Shellder has is also incredibly easy. You'll see these random arguments that Shellder can do all of these things on paper from people who just don't see the game at a high level. Admittely, sometimes the exact tera or the 4th move can be a little ambigous, but frankly the endgame line doesn't really change.

The reason that we're even having this discussion is twofold: we're bored. There's nothing for us to do and hasn't been for a while. This is a supposedly a low collateral option to shake up the tier. And two; some vocal players don't enjoy playing against Shellder because they think they're losing games because Shellder is broken, when they chip their check down signicantly in the first two turns and blow tera to beat a chipped Mudbray. Shellder promotes healthy resource management and forces players to actually play smart with what they bring and use. You cannot simply coinflip into endgames against Shellder and expect results. You will lose because the other person has a clear endgame and you do not.

The tera arguments drive me crazy as well. If you are anti tera as a player and want Shellder gone, you have a severe misunderstanding of what the problem actually is. Shellder normalizes several tera options. It forces people to bring defensive tera (the good kind) instead of offensive tera (the kind people hate). Throwing Tera Fairy and Tera Blast on your foo to blindside Vullaby sounds delightful. If you're not convinced, take a look at every Pokemon you think is banned because of Tera, and ask yourself if it's because of defensive tera or an offensive tera.

It's hard to find a top player that isn't lockstep on this one; Shellder isn't broken. Whether it gets banned or not is entirely dependant on if people want to play against it or not.

 

[Envy]

Shellder doesn't overcentralize teams. Checks are present and very capable, and its often pretty clear to both players what needs to happen in order for Shellder to win the game. It doesn't force specific Pokemon on teams, you were going to run something that's likely a check to it in some form anyway.

I agree: most teams would run a Shellder answer anyway, but that doesn't mean it can only be used to check shellder through the whole game, this ignores the fact that the opponent has other five Pokémon.

Your Mienfoo will have to check a lot of your opponent's Pokémon throughout the match and could be knocked or chipped, but it will die to Icicle Spear after rocks, but it could also be Tera Water Liquidation.
Your Mudbray (That you need to tera btw) will be chipped by a Vullaby, Stunky, Diglett, Glimmet or Elekid;
Your Foongus should live Rock Blast if you keep its Eviolite, but what if Shellder is Icicle Spear?
Your Mareanie should live Rock Blast if you keep its Eviolite, but it cannot get knocked, and well, if Mareanie is your Mienfoo check, it's likely to get knocked during the game, but shellder could also be Tera Rock or Ground Blast.
Your Chinchou could get chipped by Elekid and Vullaby.

It does limit teambuilding in one point; that being defensive tera, but this isn't a huge problem overall.

Priority is present pretty much everywhere in the tier, and the two best users of priority still completely stop the clam.

What would those be? Stunky and Mienfoo? A-Diglett? A-Sandshrew? I assume you are talking about Grookey, the one with the least usage of those. About Grookey, it's not really a good Pokémon and Glide doesn't even kill Shellder at full HP and -1 Def, and is also bad against Ice Shard. On Stunky, you can't just say it "completely stops" Shellder, because it simply doesn't; Not only Shellder can live Sucker Punch depending on how much HP it has, but it also can run a Fairy Tera, Substitute, Ice Shard, run a more bulky set and of course win the 50s.

Shellder fails to score many key kills without tera, which means that you're either chipping down several pokemon in order to have a chance to sweep a game.

I also don't think this is true, since it can KO Mienfoo (with rocks up), Vullaby, Foongus, Mudbray, Toedscool, Elekid, Glimmet, Stunky, Diglett-Alola and Gothita, while also being able to 1v1 Sandshrew-Alola and even live an Earthquake at -1 when it tries to revenge kill Shellder most of the time. Out of the 15 Pokémon ranked A- or higher, it can beat 11 of those with little support, no tera and a common moveset. (Other Pokémon are Mareanie, Tinkatink, Chinchou and itself)

The variety of options that Shellder has is vastly overrated. At the end of the day, Shellder has 4 moveslots and a tera slot. It cannot block Fake Out with Tera Ghost and score kills with Tera Water. It can't run both Ice Shard and Protect. Reading what Shellder has is also incredibly easy. You'll see these random arguments that Shellder can do all of these things on paper from people who just don't see the game at a high level. Admittely, sometimes the exact tera or the 4th move can be a little ambigous, but frankly the endgame line doesn't really change.

I personally don't like the argument of "you can't predict what is Shellder's set going to do because you aren't playing at a top level" but if it matters; at the very least tazz, kythr, Colin, Éric and myself (5/7 in the council, not sure about Laroxyl's and Hacker's takes) have the "if there's a Shellder, there's a way" mentality while facing one, basically meaning that we can't be sure about its set, and usually go through weird endgames, like "This wins if it's Liquidation but loses if it's Ice Shard", where there isn't and option that covers the three or four most used sets.

Shellder promotes healthy resource management

It's healthy if you know its set, but since we don't, the safest way is keeping your tera to answer Shellder, which creates an unfair dynamic — I can't use my mechanic until my opponent reveals their Shellder set, but they might have positions where teraing another mon will make huge progress, or your tera being useless against Shellder anyway (like Steel Foongus against Rock Blast, Liquidation Protect Shellder or Tera Blast Ground)

If you're not convinced, take a look at every Pokemon you think is banned because of Tera, and ask yourself if it's because of defensive tera or an offensive tera.

Banned Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera had a huge impact:
Scraggy, who clicked tera poison to setup Dragon Dances;

Snivy, can argue it's both offensive and defensive but clicking tera poison and substitute on a Foongus to wall its moves isn't really what we mean by offensive tera;

Magby, The Belly Drum Tera Ghost set — the one who got more people to agree on its ban — is both offensive and defensive, but I also would like to mention this one game where I only won because of special Magby using tera Psychic defensively.

Banned Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera hadn't much impact:
Eviolite sets could run tera Fairy but that wasn't really relevant for the ban by itself. (that set might've also been considered healthy by people at some point?)

Didn't matter.

Tera fire was a good defensive resource in Sandshrew-alola matchups but it was mainly to KO Foongus, Tinkatink and other Voltorbs.

Banned Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera was a decently relevant factor:
Tera Ground Blast was the most broken part, but it being able to setup against Mienfoo and Tinkatink's Thunder Wave was an important factor as well.

Suspected Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera had a huge impact:
Gothita was suspected mainly because of it's defensive tera set — Steel/Flying to setup against stuff it shouldn't.
Shellder also makes good use of defensive tera to setup, specially Ghost, Fairy, Rock and Ground but also Grass, Electric and Steel.

Legal Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera has a huge impact:
Sandshrew-alola's primariy set is tera Fairy, mainly to be able to wall Mienfoo (and live other stuff it shouldn't) and KO or Setup in front of it.
Tera Ghost Vullaby to live Fake Out is a classic, but we can also mention tera Dragon and Ground to live a hit and 1v1 Electric-types.
Tera Steel Sub SD set is also a classic and we know how much it auto-wins against many Foongus teams.

Legal Offensive Pokémon where Offensive Tera has a huge impact:
Tera Blast Ground sets to nuke Glimmet and Tinkatink.
Many options, like Flying, Ground, Stellar, Dark.
Again, many options like Psychic, Grass and even Ice.
Usually Ground to KO Chinchou, Mareanie and a chipped Tinkatink.
Tera Fire to KO everything in the late game.

You could argue that some of those Pokémon use their defensive tera to setup so it ends up being offensive after all but I disagree, in fact I don't think that offensive or defensive tera are much different, since both have the same purpose — beating stuff it shouldn't.

Example 1: You click tera Water on your Mienfoo at 50% against a Scarf Growlithe and KO it with HJK.
Example 2: You click tera Steel on your Foongus against a Shellder and KO it with Giga Drain.
Example 3: You click tera Psychic on your Elekid against a Mienfoo and KO it with Psychic.
Example 4: You click tera Ground on your Shellder against an Elekid and sets a Shell Smash.

I assume you would consider the first two as defensive, the third as offensive and the fourth as both, but as you can see, in the 4 examples, your opponent is the one with the momentum — 1- Your Mienfoo dies; 2- Your Foongus dies; 3- His Mienfoo lives 4- Your Shellder Dies — but with Tera, you nuke their threats and shifts the momentum. The only difference is: who's attacking first, but the tera user's goal is always the same — shift the momentum by nuking the opponent's threat. If that's the idea, the Offensive pokémon running a Defensive tera, so it lives the opponent's moves and therefore click a setup move to be able to beat it, shouldn't really be considered offensive, because they are not threatening an imediate KO.

I'll likely vote Ban on Shellder.

 

[xzeroxman]

You mean tera ground wingull to kill Chinchou right?

 

[Envy]

You mean tera ground wingull to kill Chinchou right?

Yes, I am stupid.

 

[xzeroxman]

Envy just to drive home your point slightly about shellder 50/50's and defend against the idea that good players know how to play around shellder and don't lose it it... I have a friend Birbary who does not play mons and wanted to learn LC. He touched the teir for less than 24 hours and beat Elfuseon when he's around 1570. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2514285361-k6pd4b48838pxxr5qqhy0vm7xtsb5uwpw

Elfuseon is a better player than me, he's higher on ladder and preforms better in tour and has beaten me. I suspect there are several who could say the same. Just food for thought is all I ask.

 

[genisu]

Shellder isn't busted. Almost every single top player knows this.

Shellder doesn't overcentralize teams. Checks are present and very capable, and its often pretty clear to both players what needs to happen in order for Shellder to win the game. It doesn't force specific Pokemon on teams, you were going to run something that's likely a check to it in some form anyway. It also has an array of counters and checks. Priority is present pretty much everywhere in the tier, and the two best users of priority still completely stop the clam. Shellder fails to score many key kills without tera, which means that you're likely chipping down several pokemon in order to have a chance to sweep a game.

The variety of options that Shellder has is vastly overrated. At the end of the day, Shellder has 4 moveslots and a tera slot. It cannot block Fake Out with Tera Ghost and score kills with Tera Water. It can't run both Ice Shard and Protect. Reading what Shellder has is also incredibly easy. You'll see these random arguments that Shellder can do all of these things on paper from people who just don't see the game at a high level.

Adding onto andres points, I think a mom is over centralizing when u need 3 tera water/steel/mares on ur team to not be considered weak to it, I don't think u can call any mon a counter to it, besides maybe koffing or tera water bray? Koffing is otherwise bad as a pokemon. Iirc the best 2 prio are foo and stunky, both of which can be shut down by the right set. There is no way to reliably predict the opponents set on shellder and I'm challenging you to prove this. It doesn't need tera water to score kills, spear and rock blast can kill most neutrals after rocks. There is no way to properly resource manage without knowing what set it is and without folding to the rest of a team. If you don't know which of your stunky, mare, foo, bray can counter the shellder, you can't manage this, especially on these pokemon that definitely need to come into the game without giving up other important things like getting rocks up/spinning/absorbing and your tera intact.

 

[xonks]

Hi I just got reqs and here are my thoughts on counterplay (that I tried to organize). I will update this soon tm.

Priority
I am a very big Grookey fan, but it definitely has issues, mainly with its Vullaby and Foongus matchups. Grookey is the most consistent Shellder check IMO, as the main way Shellder can beat it is with defensive Teras like Steel, Poison, Grass, etc. Defensive Teras are more manageable IMO, as counterplay such as your own walls and defensive Tera check it. Again, Grookey is not a perfect mon, and I think it really struggles with Torchic banned, Dig-A usage trending down, and Larvesta being used more, but it is a very good Shellder check.
I'm a bit iffy on Sucker Punch, as you are inherently playing 50/50s every turn. While the chance the Shellder user gets every 50/50 right in a row, options like Smashing again, Ice Shard, Tera Fairy, or Sub can swing key turns (and the game) in their favor. Dig-A can invite Shellder in and I think you need to EQ then Tera Dark Sucker after the Smash to KO Shellder.
Fake Out loses to Protect and Tera Ghost and requires you to sacc or Tera 50/50 (if Rocks are up) after clicking Fake Out.
Underrated IMO. I'm a fan of Timmy and it has a good Shellder matchup with its bulk and Mach. Like Grookey, it's not a perfect mon, and really struggles with Special Attackers and Mienfoo competition for a fighter.
Shellder would probably need to Tera or be super chipped for Ice Shard to KO.

Yes, priority is usually effective counterplay, but the variety of sets I think makes it much harder. Do you Fake Out a potential Tera Fairy 3A set, or do you risk wasting a turn and potentially losing the game vs Tera Ghost or Protect?

Fat
There are defensive checks, but they'll most likely get worn down: Mienfoo is KOed after Rocks, Mare will likely be knocked, etc. Mudbray is awesome but if it is in jail the whole game for Shellder then you'd likely be missing out on a lot. Endure Vull is nice but can lose to Shard sets. Chinchou lives a +2 Rock Blast but you would need to preserve it for the whole game, and TBlast Grass/Ground can break it.

Tera
Tera Water/Steel can usually check it, but Tera is bilateral. Tera Rock/Ice/Water/Stellar or TBlast Electric/Grass/Ground can break through defensive Teras, and there's no way to consistently guess the Shellder set.

Jank/Less Common
Eniigma classic.
Tera + Bulletproof can check it I guess but if your name isn't kythr you'll probably struggle to get Chespin value.
Taunt can stop setup but only if Shellder is trying to smash in front of a specific mon.

Shellder does have effective checks but I’m also a big believer in if there’s a Shellder there’s a way. There will be a set that beats your checks, and I think the guessing element of your opponent's Shellder set potentially pushes it over the brink into broken. So I’m in the ban boat but probably only slightly.

 

[mm]

voting ban, i think Missing Focus summed it up best here

 

[CitroSucks]

Didn't mean it like that at all. There is a metagame discussion channel for broad statements. As for why tera unfortunately cannot be touched atm.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion.3710868/post-10853556
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion.3710868/post-10822149

I'm also really uninformed on this topic and I think this would have a lot of sway in how I vote; is there still a possibility of banning tera blast rather than tera itself? I think limiting the potential of Shellder's tera blast electric/ground sets could do a lot in keeping it in check without a full ban, and it could also let us reexamine some previous bans where tera blast was a large factor.

 

[glowbrogang]

chewtle:

shellder:

teams i used:
https://pokepast.es/51ada289e517bf38
https://pokepast.es/dbca4b6a8b9aeb36
https://pokepast.es/e005d8ca1379fbcf ty mm
https://pokepast.es/4d8d75a65cf0e213
https://pokepast.es/e33b8ad816b9266d (though i changed ice spinner - >> waterfall and giga drain - >> dgleam)

after taking a bewildering 376 games to get reqs here is how i view shellder on each of its issues

set variety: now, its no secret that shellder is very versatile, from having great attacks without drawback with help from skill link in icicle spear and rock blast, to reliable STAB in liquidation, and even priority in ice shard! (as well as being able to run tera blast or special with overcoat), it's set variety is what makes it unique as a sweeper, a nasty plot vullaby wll be tera blast ground endure or tera ghost with heat wave, or you see a alolashrew and you would know it likely has swords dance rapid spin triple axel and earthquake (or even ice shard). WIth shellder not being confined to one set, it is very easy for it to seem overwhelming, as your checks could not check it, since it could be a set you didn't account for. Now, this is very frustrating and understandable, as it seems like you have no counterplay or way to account for EVERY shellder set, which, there will be a vullaby set that can 6-0, a shellos set, and even a shroodle set. The difference is, these other sets for these aforementioned pokemon is that their sets which can steal games are niche (aside from np vullaby but i was thinking mainly about npid). Shellder can always steal a game if it's the right set. You have a nymble? protect. you're going to fake out cycle it? it has tera ghost and shell smashes again, you think you can revenge kill it with grookey? tera ice ice shard (real set).
The amount of perceived counterplay that can be stopped if the shellder just has that one move, like tera blast ground for example for tera steels, and there is more and more makes me believe it is broken, but here's the thing, you cant be every shellder set at once, all of them have a weakness, you just need to figure out how to build your team to be able to withstand it so you can figure out which set it is so you can check it (also wanted to add something how icicle spear and rock blast are great moves and dont need the tera boost but the tera boost can just win games like ohkoing mare/chou).

The argument that shellder forces defensive tera is true to some extent, but we see this in many cases, such as diglett-alola forcing grass tera types on pokemon like mareanie, and flying on chinchou there's also steel on mienfoo to resist wingull hurricane and elekid psychic as well as escape a gothita trap. This is no new thing, a pokemon that is threatening will force new defensive counterplay, now the question is the amount of defensive counterplay shellder forcing healthy? in my opinion, despite loving the mon, no, it is not healthy, as even with great defensive counterplay such as tera water mudbray, you can just get tera blast grass/electric'd, showing how shellder can do a lot in the right matchup, however the wrong set will not do a lot in the same matchup.

what will lc look like is shellder is gone?
if shellder leaves, finally, we will see an influx of sand and rain (2 best weathers) as well as a new challenger to take it's place...

THAT IS RIGHT
chewtle will be the new premier shell smasher, now what makes chewtle more chadlike and less broken than shellder
it also has an ability boosting its moves, however not having many moves that are affected (ice fang and crunch) which arent the best (though ice fang is good) makes it more managable
not being to ohko mienfoo from full hp, no tera needed from mienfoo
being able to ko pokemon such as mareanie and chinchou without tera, this shows how shellder is weak, not able to do this while chewtle can with stomping tantrum
isnt chewtle too weak? some people may ask
now, chewtle is not weak by any measure, this pokemon is great and can do great things! he is also very cute and bonesmashmaxxes + looksmaxxes daily! this gives us a good reason to ban shellder to give chewtle a place in the meta
next onto sand
sand's biggest problem was getting set up, just to get stopped again, this can be stopped by pokemon such as tera water mudbray, shellder, fake out mienfoo stalling turns, and switching between pokemon to stall turns, as well as priority threatening the sweeper out such as grookey. the reason shellder is such a problem for sand is that it is so physically bulky that it will be able to withstand boosted pokemon such as even a +2 drilbur in sand (though not diglett), secondly it can counterlead the hippopotas, and if you get the turn wrong between it clicking shell smash or icicle spear, it is not going to be looking good for you, so that is a reason to support the shellder ban so sand rises
lastly, rain
rain is an archetype that is very misunderstood, and i was even using a pokepaste with rain that i did not link hear, because i fear it may be too strong, but shellder being banned will help rain in 3 ways - less protect stalling from shellder, one less water resist to worry about, and less FUCKING WATER TERAS ON EVERYTHING
this will help rain to become an even stabler archetype, though i feel that people are using the wrong abusers

conclusion - shellder lowk isnt broken but ill probably vote ban just so that rain, sand, and chewtle will rise


shoutouts
shoutout to the 15th amendment for prohibiting federal and state governments from denying a citizen the right to vote based on race, color, or previous condition of servitude
for this month, for being womens history month
and smallville and coconut water for increasing me to a ltn to a htn

tldr; mons not broken, run priority or some shit and save your tera, this mon feeds off teams that wasted tera early, still voting ban (however voting the same as certain ltns as well as certain smogoncels is demeaning to a htn like myself)

 

[Agera]

I'll vote to BAN . The oyster is powerful mainly due to the movepool and tera options it gets to run. I also see a lot of "checks", but that changes with some progress in the game.

Guessing Game
Before I start yapping, I want to point out an important detail on why is very oppresive. Let's play a game shall we? Just try to guess the set of the in the replays down below FROM PREVIEW ONLY. (If you've seen the replays, then just skip over this part.) GO! :

Starsama vs Wail Wailord, SCL Semifinals

Answer

Shellder
Tera Type: Steel
- Liquidation
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash
- Substitute

Greedy vs myself, LCWC Quarterfinals

Answer

Shellder
Ability: Overcoat
Tera Type: Electric
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Shell Smash
- Tera Blast

Fernanch vs Corck, LCWC Week 6

Answer

Shellder
Tera Type: Rock
- Liquidation
- Protect
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash

teamo vs Hoennspetile, LCWC Week 5

Answer

Shellder
Tera Type: Ghost
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Shell Smash
- (did not see last)

hxmo ❤ vs myself, PTSL Week 5

Answer

Shellder
Tera Type: Ground
- Icicle Spear
- Protect
- Shell Smash
- Tera Blast

NOTE : I did crit to win, so I believe hax just won the game, not the fact I played well.

I don't think it's super fair to take guesses in the dark and try to play around with that guess. After all set guessing would imply that you could be wrong. One wrong guess and you gave a win to your opponent without realising. In my opinion it's very hard to cover every set in the tier that can run.

"Checks"
I feel like in lc, there isn't something that can wall every single set that has. Like many other op mons (for example ), it gets to pick its checks. There are 5 different sets to cover and all have different answers as shown in the 5 replays,. So what I am really trying to say is that the tier has more "temporary" checks. What I meant by "temporary" is it can wall a few sets on preview. An example is , it has very good bulk and it's literally the most used mon in the tier, all it takes is one Protect or Tera Ghost on high jump kick to get rid of 50% of its HP. Something that I would say and I think many would agree here, tera is the reason behind these "lack" of checks. Mons like or or can all live a +2 rock blast, liquidation or icicle spear from IF THEY ARE AT FULL HP AND WITHOUT TERA BOOST/TERA BLAST HIT. I feel like Tera is to blame here, not , but until we still have that mechanic, it's a reason to get rid of it.

Priority
So I feel like priority is a dual sided blade here. Yes, it can help, but it depends on the situation :
Fake out -> Good if no tera ghost or protect
Sucker Punch -> Good into most teras, and you also need to play sub / protect mindgames.
Ice Shard -> Good into neutral tera, but still is resisted without tera
Mach Punch -> Good if no tera ghost or resistance to the move
Grassy Glide -> If terrain turns are low, you can stall that out + you need to get a high roll

Calc

236 Atk Grookey Grassy Glide vs. -1 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Shellder in Grassy Terrain: 14-20 (70 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Movepool
So here is a list of moves that can run (exlucding shell smash) without really being punished :
Protect / icicle spear / rock blast / substitute / liquidation / ice shard / tera blast / hydro pump / ice beam

Once again its a guessing game as of which combination will the have and can maybe result in a lost if incorrect. Something I would like to add here is that most of its common teras can also help get KO isn't meant to get. Making the moves even harder to tank / counter / prep for.

Tera
I don't think I need to explain what tera is. I would rather like to explain how much it's helping be insane.

• Defensive Tera : Steel / Ghost / Fairy
  So all these tera allow to live longer and sometimes get 1 or 2 extra KO it should of never got.
  
  
• Offensive Tera : Water / Rock / Electric / Ground / Grass :
  Can boost some moves to claim KOs it couldn't get beforehand, or act as a good offensive tera blast type.

So I would like to point out that out of the 18 typings in the game, can run 8. Once again, gl guessing the tera.

Once more, I do not feel that is entierly broken, but Tera is making it broken, and until that is still in LC, we need a BAN.

Thx Leroipolux for help!

 

[cpt.kraken]

New LC enjoyer here. I don't think Shellder is the main issue of the tier, however yes it's definitely broken. Even if there are some kind of counterplays due to the big issue of the gen9 mechanic you have to guess the set and the potential tera making every sweepers especially with access to a good natural bulk boosted by eviolite and a priority totally dumb.

I have built and played mainly a screens team with it and the bulk becomes litteraly insane allowing to play even kinda bad while still destroying a lot of things. I think Ice Shard is way better than standard sample set with Liquidation tho I have even met an user playing Life Orb reaching dumb amount of damages on bulky mons.
+2 236+ Atk Life Orb Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 20-25 (86.9 - 108.6%) -- approx. 27.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fortunately without Tera Ground most Steel-types like Tinkatink or Cufant are a stop to it and without Ice Shard Grookey can stop but how can you know which set is it before losing against it once ?

I still think a black bird is even worst than Shellder and won like 80% of my games.

Obviously a ban here.


Special shoutout to Molemitts and Flabeauf for extra teams