Announcement Dirty Little Secret - Shellder Suspect Test

[Envy]

"'I'll keep you my dirty little secret."

​

The LC Council has decided to suspect test Shellder.

Shellder has always been a source of controversy in this tier ever since we got the release of DLC. Counterplay to Shellder varies a lot through both the set it chooses to run itself, and on what specifically the opponent brings for it. With tera existing, Shellder gets to pick and choose its counters to a very high and consistent level. Typical options you could use such as Grookey to counter Shellder are very far from perfect withhaving reliable counterplay into it with many of Shellders options. Ice Shard bypasses typical counterplay such as Endure Vullaby, Grassy Glide Grookey, and Sucker Punch Stunky. Some of the most common counterplay to Shellder is Tera Water, however Shellder can make use of either Tera Rock Rock Blast or options like Tera Blast Grass or Ground to OHKO Tera Water or Steel users. Alongside that, it has multiple defensive Tera's that it can use well. Tera Ghost allows Shellder to be immune to Mienfoo's High Jump Kick and Fake Out. Shellder can also utilize a specially offensive set to get around Endure Vullaby, and secure KO's against more physically defensive options like Mienfoo alongside with having the luxury to run Overcoat with Tera Steel or Poison to be able to safely setup on Foongus and Grookey.

This being said, Shellder is not a flawless Pokémon. Shellder may struggle to get oppurtunities to setup into certain team compositions. Alongside that, the Shellder user does not know what counterplay their opponent to Shellder has and may make mistakes. If Shellder is lacking Ice Shard, Endure Vullaby and Grassy Glide Grookey may be pretty decent outs into it. If Shellder is lacking Rock Blast, Tera Water is very reliable counterplay into it. If Shellder is lacking a water move, Tera Steel is excellent counterplay into it. However, the opponent may not know the full Shellder set until it is too late and they have possibly exhausted all of their resources for Shellder over the course of the game. We encourage anyone who has an opinion to participate in the discussion and meet the requirements to vote!


NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Hacker, tazz, or a staff member.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/Hacker/tazz or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800

The period to get the suspect requirements will be <t:1773453600:F> with voting for the suspect going up after. Have fun laddering!

 

[Colin]

I expect that I will probably vote ban on shellder, but I believe there is an argument for it staying in the tier. Shellder with the correct set is broken, but it has to account for priority, it's standard counters, and defensive tera with its 3 move slots and tera. In most games, shellder will not get multiple turns to setup, and is usually not difficult to damage into priority range by attacking it on the setup turn. Crucially, shellder provides counterplay against choice scarfers, which are otherwise very difficult to punish. Shellder teams also struggle to fit as much immediate speed control, due to shellder requiring it's health to setup and therefore not contributing to a defensive core with the exception of the alolashrew and fire type matchups. Ultimately though, I believe that the uncertainty with the potential of terablast (cough, cough) or substitute sets pushes it over the edge of brokenness.

 

[Incognition]

I would like to share my personal thoughts on

This Pokemon is a fantastic late-game cleaner, the main purpose of this shell, but unlike in older gens, it has Tera, which makes it more unpredictable and therefore, threatening.

Because of Shellder, Mudbray is forced to run Tera Water most of the time, and Foongus/Mienfoo have to run Tera Steel/Water as well.

Shellder has the two most obvious moves in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast, utilising its Skill Link ability. However, players will have to guess the remaining sets:

• Ice Shard (to help with +2 Vullaby and other potential priority users)
• Protect or Tera Ghost (to prevent Fake Out pressure from Mienfoo)
• Substitute (usually on something that doesn't want to stay in against Shellder, giving it a free set up and then able to kill whatever it wants)
• Liquidation (hits harder for certain threats + STAB)
• Tera Blast (I recently saw Tera Ground Shellder to deal with steel teras etc)

Shellder can use Protect to scout potential tera types as well (e.g. Mienfoo and Foongus), enabling the player to play around it accordingly.

Shellder is also physically bulky, which helps with setting up, and paired with Pokemon like Memento Stunky, can be really difficult to deal with if you're not prepared.

Like any Pokemon, there are definitely ways around it, for example, Thunder Wave/Encore Tinkatink, predicting the correct tera type, scarf mons which outspeed +2 Shellder etc.

Although the bans are justifiable, I feel that Magby and Torchic were easier to play around than Shellder to an extent, and they were both banned. I personally think the meta will change and become healthier with different tera styles if this Pokemon were to be banned.

My proposal: BAN

 

[xzeroxman]

I would like to share my personal thoughts on

This Pokemon is a fantastic late-game cleaner, the main purpose of this shell, but unlike in older gens, it has Tera, which makes it more unpredictable and therefore, threatening.

Because of Shellder, Mudbray is forced to run Tera Water most of the time, and Foongus/Mienfoo have to run Tera Steel/Water as well.

Shellder has the two most obvious moves in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast, utilising its Skill Link ability. However, players will have to guess the remaining sets:

• Ice Shard (to help with +2 Vullaby and other potential priority users)
• Protect or Tera Ghost (to prevent Fake Out pressure from Mienfoo)
• Substitute (usually on something that doesn't want to stay in against Shellder, giving it a free set up and then able to kill whatever it wants)
• Liquidation (hits harder for certain threats + STAB)
• Tera Blast (I recently saw Tera Ground Shellder to deal with steel teras etc)

Shellder can use Protect to scout potential tera types as well (e.g. Mienfoo and Foongus), enabling the player to play around it accordingly.

Shellder is also physically bulky, which helps with setting up, and paired with Pokemon like Memento Stunky, can be really difficult to deal with if you're not prepared.

Like any Pokemon, there are definitely ways around it, for example, Thunder Wave/Encore Tinkatink, predicting the correct tera type, scarf mons which outspeed +2 Shellder etc.

Although the bans are justifiable, I feel that Magby and Torchic were easier to play around than Shellder to an extent, and they were both banned. I personally think the meta will change and become healthier with different tera styles if this Pokemon were to be banned.

My proposal: BAN

I agree that shellder needs to go. It is yet another offensive tera abuser that abuses its set vairation despite it's more up-front drawbacks. I'm not even sure that getting rid of tera blast would fix the issue in the current state (unless some mons where allowed back in because of the change). I think it just forces too many mons to be specific tera types and conserve tera defensively around what moves they *might* have. I think shellder leaving will open up opportunities for more mons to thrive and we'll see an increase in both team and tera diversity.

 

[genisu]

Shellder is fucking broken and has been since dlc 1 I've been saying this, no matter what ur team is there is a shelter set that 6-0s u and u end up set guessing and praying... Also forces all teams to carry 2-3 checks so will be interesting to see new builds. -biggest shellder abuser. P.S ban np on vullaby this set is so stupid like it's a 2hko into everything ur js fishing set/tera/rng cuz u don't have skill

 

[xzeroxman]

Shellder is fucking broken and has been since dlc 1 I've been saying this, no matter what ur team is there is a shelter set that 6-0s u and u end up set guessing and praying... Also forces all teams to carry 2-3 checks so will be interesting to see new builds. -biggest shellder abuser. P.S ban np on vullaby this set is so stupid like it's a 2hko into everything ur js fishing set/tera/rng cuz u don't have skill

There is no way they complex that lol

 

[No_safe_prayer]

Personally, I believe a Shellder ban would be a healthy move for the format. Although I'm relatively new to the tier, having played LC for about two months and peaking at around 1400 Elo, I find that facing Shellder is consistently problematic.

If your team isn't packing a specific priority move or a faster Pokémon with a super effective hit, Shellder becomes nearly impossible to handle once it gets going. If a team is even slightly weak to its coverage or lacks a reliable resist, it can snowball into a clean 6-0 sweep. This kind of dynamic feels unhealthy for competitive play and takes away from the strategic depth the tier should offer. Maybe I feel this way because I'm still new, but the meta just seems like it would be healthier without it.

 

[Eniigma]

I believe sheller can be countered by a variety of mons using tera or priority. But this thing can break the game based on its tera and set. So it's not completely broken but an overall ban seems better for the tier

 

[Coconut]

Shellder isn't busted. Almost every single top player knows this.

Shellder doesn't overcentralize teams. Checks are present and very capable, and its often pretty clear to both players what needs to happen in order for Shellder to win the game. It doesn't force specific Pokemon on teams, you were going to run something that's likely a check to it in some form anyway. It also has an array of counters and checks. Priority is present pretty much everywhere in the tier, and the two best users of priority still completely stop the clam. Shellder fails to score many key kills without tera, which means that you're likely chipping down several pokemon in order to have a chance to sweep a game.

The variety of options that Shellder has is vastly overrated. At the end of the day, Shellder has 4 moveslots and a tera slot. It cannot block Fake Out with Tera Ghost and score kills with Tera Water. It can't run both Ice Shard and Protect. Reading what Shellder has is also incredibly easy. You'll see these random arguments that Shellder can do all of these things on paper from people who just don't see the game at a high level. Admittely, sometimes the exact tera or the 4th move can be a little ambigous, but frankly the endgame line doesn't really change.

The reason that we're even having this discussion is twofold: we're bored. There's nothing for us to do and hasn't been for a while. This is a supposedly a low collateral option to shake up the tier. And two; some vocal players don't enjoy playing against Shellder because they think they're losing games because Shellder is broken, when they chip their check down signicantly in the first two turns and blow tera to beat a chipped Mudbray. Shellder promotes healthy resource management and forces players to actually play smart with what they bring and use. You cannot simply coinflip into endgames against Shellder and expect results. You will lose because the other person has a clear endgame and you do not.

The tera arguments drive me crazy as well. If you are anti tera as a player and want Shellder gone, you have a severe misunderstanding of what the problem actually is. Shellder normalizes several tera options. It forces people to bring defensive tera (the good kind) instead of offensive tera (the kind people hate). Throwing Tera Fairy and Tera Blast on your foo to blindside Vullaby sounds delightful. If you're not convinced, take a look at every Pokemon you think is banned because of Tera, and ask yourself if it's because of defensive tera or an offensive tera.

It's hard to find a top player that isn't lockstep on this one; Shellder isn't broken. Whether it gets banned or not is entirely dependant on if people want to play against it or not.

 

[Envy]

Shellder doesn't overcentralize teams. Checks are present and very capable, and its often pretty clear to both players what needs to happen in order for Shellder to win the game. It doesn't force specific Pokemon on teams, you were going to run something that's likely a check to it in some form anyway.

I agree: most teams would run a Shellder answer anyway, but that doesn't mean it can only be used to check shellder through the whole game, this ignores the fact that the opponent has other five Pokémon.

Your Mienfoo will have to check a lot of your opponent's Pokémon throughout the match and could be knocked or chipped, but it will die to Icicle Spear after rocks, but it could also be Tera Water Liquidation.
Your Mudbray (That you need to tera btw) will be chipped by a Vullaby, Stunky, Diglett, Glimmet or Elekid;
Your Foongus should live Rock Blast if you keep its Eviolite, but what if Shellder is Icicle Spear?
Your Mareanie should live Rock Blast if you keep its Eviolite, but it cannot get knocked, and well, if Mareanie is your Mienfoo check, it's likely to get knocked during the game, but shellder could also be Tera Rock or Ground Blast.
Your Chinchou could get chipped by Elekid and Vullaby.

It does limit teambuilding in one point; that being defensive tera, but this isn't a huge problem overall.

Priority is present pretty much everywhere in the tier, and the two best users of priority still completely stop the clam.

What would those be? Stunky and Mienfoo? A-Diglett? A-Sandshrew? I assume you are talking about Grookey, the one with the least usage of those. About Grookey, it's not really a good Pokémon and Glide doesn't even kill Shellder at full HP and -1 Def, and is also bad against Ice Shard. On Stunky, you can't just say it "completely stops" Shellder, because it simply doesn't; Not only Shellder can live Sucker Punch depending on how much HP it has, but it also can run a Fairy Tera, Substitute, Ice Shard, run a more bulky set and of course win the 50s.

Shellder fails to score many key kills without tera, which means that you're either chipping down several pokemon in order to have a chance to sweep a game.

I also don't think this is true, since it can KO Mienfoo (with rocks up), Vullaby, Foongus, Mudbray, Toedscool, Elekid, Glimmet, Stunky, Diglett-Alola and Gothita, while also being able to 1v1 Sandshrew-Alola and even live an Earthquake at -1 when it tries to revenge kill Shellder most of the time. Out of the 15 Pokémon ranked A- or higher, it can beat 11 of those with little support, no tera and a common moveset. (Other Pokémon are Mareanie, Tinkatink, Chinchou and itself)

The variety of options that Shellder has is vastly overrated. At the end of the day, Shellder has 4 moveslots and a tera slot. It cannot block Fake Out with Tera Ghost and score kills with Tera Water. It can't run both Ice Shard and Protect. Reading what Shellder has is also incredibly easy. You'll see these random arguments that Shellder can do all of these things on paper from people who just don't see the game at a high level. Admittely, sometimes the exact tera or the 4th move can be a little ambigous, but frankly the endgame line doesn't really change.

I personally don't like the argument of "you can't predict what is Shellder's set going to do because you aren't playing at a top level" but if it matters; at the very least tazz, kythr, Colin, Éric and myself (5/7 in the council, not sure about Laroxyl's and Hacker's takes) have the "if there's a Shellder, there's a way" mentality while facing one, basically meaning that we can't be sure about its set, and usually go through weird endgames, like "This wins if it's Liquidation but loses if it's Ice Shard", where there isn't and option that covers the three or four most used sets.

Shellder promotes healthy resource management

It's healthy if you know its set, but since we don't, the safest way is keeping your tera to answer Shellder, which creates an unfair dynamic — I can't use my mechanic until my opponent reveals their Shellder set, but they might have positions where teraing another mon will make huge progress, or your tera being useless against Shellder anyway (like Steel Foongus against Rock Blast, Liquidation Protect Shellder or Tera Blast Ground)

If you're not convinced, take a look at every Pokemon you think is banned because of Tera, and ask yourself if it's because of defensive tera or an offensive tera.

Banned Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera had a huge impact:
Scraggy, who clicked tera poison to setup Dragon Dances;

Snivy, can argue it's both offensive and defensive but clicking tera poison and substitute on a Foongus to wall its moves isn't really what we mean by offensive tera;

Magby, The Belly Drum Tera Ghost set — the one who got more people to agree on its ban — is both offensive and defensive, but I also would like to mention this one game where I only won because of special Magby using tera Psychic defensively.

Banned Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera hadn't much impact:
Eviolite sets could run tera Fairy but that wasn't really relevant for the ban by itself. (that set might've also been considered healthy by people at some point?)

Didn't matter.

Tera fire was a good defensive resource in Sandshrew-alola matchups but it was mainly to KO Foongus, Tinkatink and other Voltorbs.

Banned Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera was a decently relevant factor:
Tera Ground Blast was the most broken part, but it being able to setup against Mienfoo and Tinkatink's Thunder Wave was an important factor as well.

Suspected Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera had a huge impact:
Gothita was suspected mainly because of it's defensive tera set — Steel/Flying to setup against stuff it shouldn't.
Shellder also makes good use of defensive tera to setup, specially Ghost, Fairy, Rock and Ground but also Grass, Electric and Steel.

Legal Offensive Pokémon where Defensive Tera has a huge impact:
Sandshrew-alola's primariy set is tera Fairy, mainly to be able to wall Mienfoo (and live other stuff it shouldn't) and KO or Setup in front of it.
Tera Ghost Vullaby to live Fake Out is a classic, but we can also mention tera Dragon and Ground to live a hit and 1v1 Electric-types.
Tera Steel Sub SD set is also a classic and we know how much it auto-wins against many Foongus teams.

Legal Offensive Pokémon where Offensive Tera has a huge impact:
Tera Blast Ground sets to nuke Glimmet and Tinkatink.
Many options, like Flying, Ground, Stellar, Dark.
Again, many options like Psychic, Grass and even Ice.
Usually Ground to KO Chinchou, Mareanie and a chipped Tinkatink.
Tera Fire to KO everything in the late game.

You could argue that some of those Pokémon use their defensive tera to setup so it ends up being offensive after all but I disagree, in fact I don't think that offensive or defensive tera are much different, since both have the same purpose — beating stuff it shouldn't.

Example 1: You click tera Water on your Mienfoo at 50% against a Scarf Growlithe and KO it with HJK.
Example 2: You click tera Steel on your Foongus against a Shellder and KO it with Giga Drain.
Example 3: You click tera Psychic on your Elekid against a Mienfoo and KO it with Psychic.
Example 4: You click tera Ground on your Shellder against an Elekid and sets a Shell Smash.

I assume you would consider the first two as defensive, the third as offensive and the fourth as both, but as you can see, in the 4 examples, your opponent is the one with the momentum — 1- Your Mienfoo dies; 2- Your Foongus dies; 3- His Mienfoo lives 4- Your Shellder Dies — but with Tera, you nuke their threats and shifts the momentum. The only difference is: who's attacking first, but the tera user's goal is always the same — shift the momentum by nuking the opponent's threat. If that's the idea, the Offensive pokémon running a Defensive tera, so it lives the opponent's moves and therefore click a setup move to be able to beat it, shouldn't really be considered offensive, because they are not threatening an imediate KO.

I'll likely vote Ban on Shellder.

 

[xzeroxman]

You mean tera ground wingull to kill Chinchou right?

 

[Envy]

You mean tera ground wingull to kill Chinchou right?

Yes, I am stupid.

 

[xzeroxman]

Envy just to drive home your point slightly about shellder 50/50's and defend against the idea that good players know how to play around shellder and don't lose it it... I have a friend Birbary who does not play mons and wanted to learn LC. He touched the teir for less than 24 hours and beat Elfuseon when he's around 1570. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2514285361-k6pd4b48838pxxr5qqhy0vm7xtsb5uwpw

Elfuseon is a better player than me, he's higher on ladder and preforms better in tour and has beaten me. I suspect there are several who could say the same. Just food for thought is all I ask.

 

[genisu]

Shellder isn't busted. Almost every single top player knows this.

Shellder doesn't overcentralize teams. Checks are present and very capable, and its often pretty clear to both players what needs to happen in order for Shellder to win the game. It doesn't force specific Pokemon on teams, you were going to run something that's likely a check to it in some form anyway. It also has an array of counters and checks. Priority is present pretty much everywhere in the tier, and the two best users of priority still completely stop the clam. Shellder fails to score many key kills without tera, which means that you're likely chipping down several pokemon in order to have a chance to sweep a game.

The variety of options that Shellder has is vastly overrated. At the end of the day, Shellder has 4 moveslots and a tera slot. It cannot block Fake Out with Tera Ghost and score kills with Tera Water. It can't run both Ice Shard and Protect. Reading what Shellder has is also incredibly easy. You'll see these random arguments that Shellder can do all of these things on paper from people who just don't see the game at a high level.

Adding onto andres points, I think a mom is over centralizing when u need 3 tera water/steel/mares on ur team to not be considered weak to it, I don't think u can call any mon a counter to it, besides maybe koffing or tera water bray? Koffing is otherwise bad as a pokemon. Iirc the best 2 prio are foo and stunky, both of which can be shut down by the right set. There is no way to reliably predict the opponents set on shellder and I'm challenging you to prove this. It doesn't need tera water to score kills, spear and rock blast can kill most neutrals after rocks. There is no way to properly resource manage without knowing what set it is and without folding to the rest of a team. If you don't know which of your stunky, mare, foo, bray can counter the shellder, you can't manage this, especially on these pokemon that definitely need to come into the game without giving up other important things like getting rocks up/spinning/absorbing and your tera intact.