Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[DaddyBuzzwole]

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(no this isn’t an invitation to discuss gen ten yet)

 

[JackRG]

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(no this isn’t an invitation to discuss gen ten yet)

I'm ngl lets just switch over to champions OU in april cuz lets be real who wants to have this be current gen for 5 years bruh (glad they are taking their time to make gen 10 good tho)

 

[powergo1]

1 more year of SV surely means time for more suspects right

 

[Eeveeto]

To not get bored before Gen 10, we should ban a random S or A+ rank Mon each month except Tusk, Nite, Zamazenta (healthiests out of the list).

 

[mothra_moth]

We should unban Solg-

red dot appears on my forehead

I mean, I think we should use the extra year of Gen 9 to further polish the meta game so future players can make the most of it and have enjoyment playing in it!

 

[RoyalDispenser]

November update: WIWA will be delayed until 2028 because we need time to add in mimikyu, we almost forgot

Real talk a whole year to conduct experiments on current SV OU and see what shit actually sticks in prep for how to handle gen 10.

 

[UltraSword]

We should unban Solg-

Whether you are joking or not I do think I should make it clear why Solgaleo will probably not get unbanned this gen unless a specific ban happens. Solgaleo is not actually broken imo but it is unhealthy for one specific reason. Solgaleo almost completely walls Pecharunt since it has clear body with a different name which in turn makes it way worse. Because of this it causes a domino effect that leads to Wogerpon becoming broken. I do not think Wogerpon is currently broken and unhealthy for a variety of reasons, but Pecharunt is easily the best answer to it in OU. With Pecharunt getting worse it makes Hydrapple the next best answer and not only does Solgaleo do kind of well against that too but since Pecharunt is no longer as good Wogerpon can use play rough much more. For all of these reason Solgaleo will probably not drop down to OU this gen unless Wogerpon is banned which will probably not happen. The most recent low survey score makes it very likely that Wogerpon will not only stay OU for the rest of the gen but will also probably not appear on any surveys in the future. The conclusions I have listed here are the same conclusions many of the people that wanted the Solgaleo ladder came to by the end of the month, so these thoughts are based on experience.

 

[June Heat]

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(no this isn’t an invitation to discuss gen ten yet)

Can't wait for Megas in Gen 9 OU

 

[Welcome to mars]

I’m actually glad we still got a good year of this metagame left because that gives this meta more time to really find its true footing.

Gen 9 OU saw alot of major change within the first few years of its existence and has had moments where things were pretty chaotic and the community was displeased as hell with its overall state, so calmer times for the tier is something I (who admittedly lost interest in competitive mons in late 2025) will look forward to.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

I’m actually glad we still got a good year of this metagame left because that gives this meta more time to really find its true footing.

Gen 9 OU saw alot of major change within the first few years of its existence and has had moments where things were pretty chaotic and the community was displeased as hell with its overall state, so calmer times for the tier is something I (who admittedly lost interest in competitive mons in late 2025) will look forward to.

I honestly think that despite how some people are upset over mons like woger / Kyurem or tera blast rn, the council did a great job at handling the insane amount of powercreep this gen
Sv ou feels like one of the most fun gens I've played yet

Also your signature is holy peak

 

[Magcargo]

SV has been a fine gen & council has done a solid job, but I also am just about ready to clock out to either the next gen or champions. This has already been one of the longest gens ever & while what's trendy has certainly shifted since Roaring Moon's ban a year ago, that also was the last piece of tiering action we had.

 

[40kultra]

Bored of Talking about tiering action because obviously nothing stands out as "broken" or "unbeatable". although I see we were discussing who the worst OU mon is and I have seen some absolute horrendus takes

First post here in a while but in y'alls opinion, what is the worst mon currently ranked OU?
I think it's Iron Moth personally, almost every team has at least two mons that beat it, and the booster set is kinda useless after it switches
It kind of feels like a potential man kind of mon but I haven't seen anyone really do anything like that with it besides something like specs under sun

The worst OU mon is obviously Dondozo. lacks splashable outside of stall and certain fat balance teams. HO dozo is fake. Dondozo is not even mandatory on stall as we have seen developments of foul play usage on mons like mandibuzz, pecharunt, etc for example. The real glue to stall is gliscor+regen mon(mola/pex)+blissey/clodsire, not dozo.

Honourable Mention: Gweezing. Broken ability, but very lame mon. maybe If I see some heat like offensive gweez with overheat I will change my mind, but to me its nothing but a defog and status spam defensive bot with no reliable recovery. tspikes is also broken too but still, lame pokemon. last mon I would ever look at to put on my team.

Iron Crown and I don't think it is really close. Imo it doesn't have very much to offer aside from being a good Kyurem check and even then, it doesn't really switch in well against earth power (it is cleanly 2hkoed by the sub+protect set without AV and still gets 3hkoed with it) and also has to worry about tera. I think it is too weak to dark types (especially Kingambit) to be truly great in OU especially when its best coverage against them is focus blast. That being said I don't think it is terrible since it has a good speed tier and tachyon cutter is a great STAB. It can definitely do some stuff in the right match up but I think overall it is not that good.

As for Iron Moth I feel like one of the reasons it is "bad" is because we aren't really seeing enough variation. I think it does have some genuinely untapped potential in certain areas (for example I don't know why no one uses booster SpA with agility and tb ground because I can see that cooking).

Iron crown disrespect is so lame. obviously its a fringe but but I see a lot of narrow minded POVs about iron crown. if you actually utilize it as an attacker instead of a kyurem check bot with AV you will actually value out of it. speed booster calm mind, very threatening set, specs is still scary if you're not careful, still forces a decent amount of chip. maybe next time explore its good sets instead of using slop like AV iron crown to pretend you have a good kyurem check in the builder.

I think it's Iron Moth personally, almost every team has at least two mons that beat it, and the booster set is kinda useless after it switches
It kind of feels like a potential man kind of mon but I haven't seen anyone really do anything like that with it besides something like specs under sun

Iron Moth may feel mid, but it has decent set variety. even though speed booster moth may feel mid, a well positioned one can effeciently clean teams. There is also other decent sets like spatk booster, agility variants, tspikes variants, meteor beam variants, iron moth does indeed have a bag and is a decent edition on threat spam HO teams. we are very lucky this mon doesnt have real set up moves like quiver dance or nasty plot, otherwise it will be terrorizing the meta even more.

If I had to give an answer, I'd say its Moltres ngl.

Calling one of the Premier defensive mons in the tier the worst OU ranked mon, absolute insanity.

Moltres is just stuck in a hard place rn. It wants to be spdef to actually check Kyurem (one of its main mons it can answer), but it also wants to be phys defense to check the variety of physical attackers like Gambit, Zama and Dnite.

no its not. if it has good defensive partners (pecharunt,tusk for example), spdef moltres is free to run. if moltres has to carry the team, it runs physdef, it's not rocket science.

Okay, going to adress this, but it really struggles with a good amount of these IMO. ID Zama it straight up loses to if its Tera Fire, an extremely common Tera type since it also can help beat HexPult and resist the multiple Fairy type attacks aimed at it. Dnite commonly runs either Tera Blast Flying (which straight up 2hkos so if Molt doesn't have Wisp it just loses on the spot, nevermind Lum variants) or Rock Slide/Stedge which also nukes Moltres. Kingambit also runs Tera Fire a decent amount of the time and it can STILL lose to burned Gambit if its not physically defensive (+2 burned with like, two overlord boosts 2HKO's). Val can commonly run Tbolt on its Calm Mind sets (the primary set Molt is answering, SD it just hates Knock Off) which either 2HKO's it or nearly OHKO's depending on the spread. Stedge is definetely a set, particularly on Booster Speed BU sets with Taunt, which are incredibly scary for faster paced teams but can also put in work against defensive teams. Molt just loses to this so the Tusk player has a lot easier time clicking Headlong. Lando can just Taunt Molt but people have even started experimenting with options such as Rock Tomb or Smack Down, which just completely ruin Molt. Hexpult is indeed its best MU, but if its spdef molt, then its struggling to switch in consistently against Darts, as they are doing 35-40% consistently, forcing Molt to Roost in order to stay healthy enough to answer it. Kyurem has been running AV a lot more which it just HATES. Not only does Flamethrower do less, but also Kyurem can commonly run Modest, which means that Moltres is also taking way more damage, where phys def is getting 2HKO'd by Ice Beam while Spdef is still taking 30% and doing a measly 20% back. Nevermind that if it has Draco, it can just nuke it from half health. And ghold IDT I have to explain, since you already said its only sometimes.

The primary issue with Molt currently is that its very easy to get around it without even trying, a lot of the techs to beat Moltres are also techs you would just naturally fit on teams because they are good techs. People didn't use Stedge Tusk just because it nails Molt, but it also hits Zapdos, Waterpon, Kyurem, Torn-T etc. Val is running Tbolt to help against AV Mola, Torn, Spdef Corv etc. I think you get the point. I'm not saying that Molt is some dogshit mon that should be C rank, rather that it heavily struggles in the current meta because a lot of the techs and general trends do not favour it. Compare that to Crown and Moth, both of which I think are much more favourable into current trends (Crown really likes Kyurem being popular and also enjoys Hatt/Val being good rn. While Moth appreciate Ghold, Pecha, Sun etc.) and I think Molt is kinda just worse then the other two.

Citing sets specifically designed to tech for moltres to try and argue in favour of moltres being the worst OU ranked mon, not optimal for base argument.

Calling Dozo the worse mon in the tier is such a bad take lol

No it's not, it's common sense.

It is the glue that hold stall teams together, acting as a superb check to so many physical attackers. It's not just a case of "only a stall sample team uses it", I don't think I've seen a stall team without it because it offers way too much in one slot.

Excluding Teras on both sides, we got Kingambit, DD Kyurem, Ceruledge, Cinderace, Physical Pult, Dragonite, SD Gliscor, BU Tusk, Zamazenta etc etc I could go on but you get the point. Sure some of these mons have potential ways to win, like Dnite running Encore or how Ace will always U-Turn (tbf Dozo shouldn't be your Ace button) but the point here is without this fish, stall gets run over so easily.

Dozo is Dozo on stall, but its not the glue. there have been stall teams without dondozo. not optimal for base argument.

I'd argue the fact that Dozo is as high as it is in usage despite being only on stall teams with stall being ROUGH to play this gen, really shows how vital it is to the playstyle.

?? how does this prove anything, nonsense argument.

Now if you want my opinion, I'd say its Ttar. Being honest, I don't even know how its OU, I think I've seen Ttar maybe once or twice. Maybe it helps out with dealing with Pech or something? So curious question, what does Ttar even do in this tier, is it not just a worse Ting Lu as a more bulky hazard setter or an outclassed physical attacker that can't even tera to avoid taking damage from its own ability.

calling Ttar the worst mon in the tier, insanity. calling Ttar budget ting lu when it has better attacking move options and access to knock off, insanity. Ttar also checks kyurem, somethign ting lu can't do unless it burns tera. The fact that pech is the first thing that comes to you mind when thinking about how Ttar impacts the meta should disregard your argument on this. The whole appeal of Ttar is that it's a strong attacker with good coverage, good defensive profile with +1 spdef boost in sand and utility moves in knock off, roar, twave, stealth rocks, synergizes well with a lot of mons like rillaboom,zapdos,etc and can disrupt playstyles and strategies with it's ability alone. not the worst pokemon in OU.

I think all of them are at least pretty good, but it might be Enam. The speed tier just isn't impressive for a pure offensive mon. It is also really choiced reliant, making playing around it easier. The main thing that saves it is Specs Moonblast and EP coverage being hard to switch into. Some team structures just lose to that. Even then, it's pretty easy to RK. Scarf sets are a fraud. Stellar Scarf can catch you by surprise, maybe, but it still is highly situational and a Tera hog. Iron Valiant is just better most of the time.

Calling one of the premier scarf users and moonblast spammers in a meta where a lot of teams don't pack proper fairy resist the worst OU ranked mon, insanity. calling scarf enam a fraud, insanity. saying iron valiant is better most of the time, not optimal for being honest.

I can't believe I am saying this, but Lando-T is probably the worst ground type left in OU.

Calling Lando-t the worst OU ground when iron treads exist, absolute insanity.

Gliscor is just the better Flying/Ground.

Calling gliscor the better flying/ground, absolute insanity.

Lando-T just hates not having Defog

Lando-T is fine without Defog.

It still has a place on some more offensive teams. But I also think most offensive teams have better options if they don't really need another pivot and/or Ground immunity.

saying offensive teams have better options, when there's no mons that can replicate what lando-T offers to offense, insanity.

Lando T is definitely the worst ground type yeah. It is definitely carried a lot by both intimidate and a serviceable special attack, but I can definitely see it drop to UU in the next gen unless it gets a really big buff.

Agreeing with this horrible take and adding more nonsense on top of that, not optimal for common sense.

Anything that drops webs is the worst mon in the tier.

Every web setter historically drops and raises all the way from NU to OU and vice versa depending on the popularity of webs playstyle itself. They’re all suicide leads and nothing else really.

And even if webs is some op strat, then there comes a game where even the webs are useless cause everything is boots/levitate/flying and you’re essentially playing 6v5 with an NU mon.

Back when araquanid had toxic you could say the game is less of a 6v5 cause araquanid could do some silly shit either with it’s damage or crippling beyond just webs but araquanid is not doing much of value besides spooking gliscors if it’s not getting webs up.

It’s kinda testament to webs themselves how valuable they are when a Pokémon flip flops between NU and OU depending on how many web players are active that month and there isn’t even enough with access to webs to just play a consistent OU one over something that doesn’t even stick in nearby tiers below OU. Iron moth and friends would at least stick UU or BL.

Common sense.

Ok. You have a point about Choice Scarf for Healing Wish. I would still rather use something like Latias for HW, though, since the speed tier and bulk is better. Latias also gets Trick, which is quite handy on choice sets.

Trying to imply that Latias is superior to enamorus, insanity.

That aside, Specs is just better on Enam. It's far harder to switch into. The reason why I stated Tera Stellar is because that is the one thing that has real snowball potential with Scarf Enam, gimmick though it may be. Tera Ground is good, but any Scarf that isn't running Stellar is just lacking in juice.

Both sets are equally good and server their own purposes.

Using a mon with less than 110 base speed for Scarf in this gen is very... Well, stuff like Tusk (even though it's more of a Net Dex thing) or Kyurem can work since they have power and bulk. But if you are going with paper defenses like Enam, it's kind of tragic to see yourself still get outsped by a Deo-S, BE speed Moth, Trailblaze Wellspring, or virtually every boosted mon that is actually fast this gen. And it's even worse if you don't run Timid because, let's face it, Scarf Timid hits like a wet paper bag by gen 9 OU standards.

Enam isn't as frail as you're making it out be, it can live hits like Ival after taking rock damage and Oger cudgel from full for example. considering how many teams lack proper fairy resist its pretty easy for scarf enam to clean late game.

Enamorus also gets revenge killed by most priority pretty easily, making the speed tier even less reliable. Many teams pack priority because of how threatening setup sweepers are this gen, so this isn't exactly a rare occurance.

Saying a mon that resist gambit sucker punch and rillaboom grassy glide is easily revenge killed by priority, insanity.

You might wonder why Specs would be better when it isn't as fast. The point of specs is damage, though. The point of Scarf is speed, which is sabotaged by your sub base 110 speed and fragile constitution making you vulnerable to priority. With Specs, all that matters is that your opponent has trouble switching into it when you bring it on something slow. You play it like a kinda fast wall breaker.

again, idk how a mon that resist the most common priority users is vulnerable to priority.

Tyranitar. It's almost always outclassed by another mon regardless of what set it's running.

Calling the only viable mon with the sandstorm ability outclassed, absolute nonsense.

Also, the fact that it's weak to 60% of the tier is pathetic.

doesn't mean much when you're bulky enough to take hits and trade with mons. also has a lot of important resistances like flying, ghost, and fire.

Haven,t played much OU recently, but if I had to choose a single worst Mon, I would go with Clef.

Calling a glue piece on bootspam and hazard stack teams the single worst ranked OU mon, bad opinion.

but rarely wins games by itself and rarely stops biggest offensive threats.

First of all, it can win games by itself. 2 winning games "by yourself" shouldn't be a criteria in the first place.

Another answer to consider:



Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet). It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds. Offensive teams also have plenty of 'mons that can check it and exert pressure back (Zama, 'Nite, Kyurem, Moth, etc.).

All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.

It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.

Trying to include rillaboom in this argument, absolute insanity

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

What are your hot takes this generation?

Mine is that CM Raging Bolt is not that great as people seem to think. It needs tera to not instantly crumble against every Ground type, and even with tera it takes so much damage from something like Tusk Headlong Rush that it becomes easy target for a priority user like Scizor or Dragonite. And if the opponent has a Fairy type with Encore like Tinkaton or Iron Valiant and you get one prediction right with Dragon Pulse basically your sweeper is worthless. The best strenght that i can see to this set is that it pairs well with Kingambit offensively since it can lure in Great Tusk, but most teams have usually more than one way of dealing with Gambit, like burns from Heatran, Moltres or Cinderace, Lando, Multiscale Dragonite or a very niche and uncommon pokemon named Zamazenta

Kyurem should be banned, partly because it limits a lot the special pivots that you can viably run and it forces a lot of constraint on the teambuilder to find consistent ways of handling it, specially building a consistent balance team feels almost impossible with Don Freeze-Dry rolling around OU. Also almost all of your options to handle Kyurem defensively (Glowking, Gholdengo, Iron Crown) leave you really vulnerable to Ghost and Dark types, except Tyranitar which is hard to fit into teams and if Kyurem really wants it can use Body Press on AV sets or Focus Blast on Specs, and SpD Moltres which doesn't take well Specs at all

Also it's not that hot but NP Pecharunt is underrated asf, this thing has like 2 checks in OU being Kingambit and Ting-Lu, and Clodsire that is in UU. The only real disadvantage is that you lose some defensive utility by the virtue of being OHKOed by a +2 Tera Water Ivy Cudgel from Wellspring, but if you can afford another way of dealing with Wellspring like Dragonite or Zama, NP Pecha becomes one of the most terrifying things you can see

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Bored of Talking about tiering action because obviously nothing stands out as "broken" or "unbeatable". although I see we were discussing who the worst OU mon is and I have seen some absolute horrendus takes

The worst OU mon is obviously Dondozo. lacks splashable outside of stall and certain fat balance teams. HO dozo is fake. Dondozo is not even mandatory on stall as we have seen developments of foul play usage on mons like mandibuzz, pecharunt, etc for example. The real glue to stall is gliscor+regen mon(mola/pex)+blissey/clodsire, not dozo.

Honourable Mention: Gweezing. Broken ability, but very lame mon. maybe If I see some heat like offensive gweez with overheat I will change my mind, but to me its nothing but a defog and status spam defensive bot with no reliable recovery. tspikes is also broken too but still, lame pokemon. last mon I would ever look at to put on my team.

While I will stand with the moth take (as in moth is mid), dozo is def the worst mon. I honestly just forgot about it lmao

Def worst mon. Ultra passive momentum sink that's only good on a honestly horrible archetype

It kind of works as a wincon but it's inconsistent and a lot of the stuff it "checks" can run sets to beat it (dark tera gambit as an example) and it's really prone to being knock fodder and chipped by hazards. Overall just not a good mon.

Geezing take I sort of agree with. I don't really know why it's in OU, it kind of just fogs, is also sort of easily knocked and kind of just sits there in alot of mus. I definitely don't think it's bad like dozo tho, it will invalidate any mola on opps team, can help vs other regens as well, and having a consistent removal option is amazing for some semistalls

Iron crown disrespect is so lame. obviously its a fringe but but I see a lot of narrow minded POVs about iron crown. if you actually utilize it as an attacker instead of a kyurem check bot with AV you will actually value out of it. speed booster calm mind, very threatening set, specs is still scary if you're not careful, still forces a decent amount of chip. maybe next time explore its good sets instead of using slop like AV iron crown to pretend you have a good kyurem check in the builder.

AV crown is pretty decent actually, tho I think the best set is probably specs. Crown feels like heatran in the way that it's a great mon its just not as splashable as others if you get what I mean

 

[tommytt22]

Bored of Talking about tiering action because obviously nothing stands out as "broken" or "unbeatable". although I see we were discussing who the worst OU mon is and I have seen some absolute horrendus takes

The worst OU mon is obviously Dondozo. lacks splashable outside of stall and certain fat balance teams. HO dozo is fake. Dondozo is not even mandatory on stall as we have seen developments of foul play usage on mons like mandibuzz, pecharunt, etc for example. The real glue to stall is gliscor+regen mon(mola/pex)+blissey/clodsire, not dozo.

Honourable Mention: Gweezing. Broken ability, but very lame mon. maybe If I see some heat like offensive gweez with overheat I will change my mind, but to me its nothing but a defog and status spam defensive bot with no reliable recovery. tspikes is also broken too but still, lame pokemon. last mon I would ever look at to put on my team.

Iron crown disrespect is so lame. obviously its a fringe but but I see a lot of narrow minded POVs about iron crown. if you actually utilize it as an attacker instead of a kyurem check bot with AV you will actually value out of it. speed booster calm mind, very threatening set, specs is still scary if you're not careful, still forces a decent amount of chip. maybe next time explore its good sets instead of using slop like AV iron crown to pretend you have a good kyurem check in the builder.

Iron Moth may feel mid, but it has decent set variety. even though speed booster moth may feel mid, a well positioned one can effeciently clean teams. There is also other decent sets like spatk booster, agility variants, tspikes variants, meteor beam variants, iron moth does indeed have a bag and is a decent edition on threat spam HO teams. we are very lucky this mon doesnt have real set up moves like quiver dance or nasty plot, otherwise it will be terrorizing the meta even more.

Calling one of the Premier defensive mons in the tier the OU ranked mon, absolute insanity.

no its not. if it has good defensive partners (pecharunt,tusk for example), spdef moltres is free to run. if moltres has to carry the team, it runs physdef, it's not rocket science.

Citing sets specifically designed to tech for moltres to try and argue in favour of moltres being the worst OU ranked mon, not optimal for base argument.

No it's not, it's common sense.

Dozo is Dozo on stall, but its not the glue. there have been stall teams without dondozo. not optimal for base argument.

?? how does this prove anything, nonsense argument.

calling Ttar the worst mon in the tier, insanity. calling Ttar budget ting lu when it has better attacking move options and access to knock off, insanity. Ttar also checks kyurem, somethign ting lu can't do unless it burns tera. The fact that pech is the first thing that comes to you mind when thinking about how Ttar impacts the meta should disregard your argument on this. The whole appeal of Ttar is that it's a strong attacker with good coverage, good defensive profile with +1 spdef boost in sand and utility moves in knock off, roar, twave, stealth rocks, synergizes well with a lot of mons like rillaboom,zapdos,etc and can disrupt playstyles and strategies with it's ability alone. not the worst pokemon in OU.

Calling one of the premier scarf users and moonblast spammers in a meta where a lot of teams don't pack proper fairy resist the worst OU ranked mon, insanity. calling scarf enam a fraud, insanity. saying iron valiant is better most of the time, not optimal for being honest.

Calling Lando-t the worst OU ground when iron treads exist, absolute insanity.


Calling gliscor the better flying/ground, absolute insanity.


Lando-T is fine without Defog.

saying offensive teams have better options, when there's no mons that can replicate what lando-T offers to offense, insanity.

Agreeing with this horrible take and adding more nonsense on top of that, not optimal for common sense.


Common sense.

Trying to imply that Latias is superior to enamorus, insanity.


Both sets are equally good and server their own purposes.

Enam isn't as frail as you're making it out be, it can live hits like Ival after taking rock damage and Oger cudgel from full for example. considering how many teams lack proper fairy resist its pretty easy for scarf enam to clean late game.

Saying a mon that resist gambit sucker punch and rillaboom grassy glide is easily revenge killed by priority, insanity.

again, idk how a mon that resist the most common priority users is vulnerable to priority.

Calling the only viable mon with the sandstorm ability outclassed, absolute nonsense.


doesn't mean much when you're bulky enough to take hits and trade with mons. also has a lot of important resistances like flying, ghost, and fire.

Calling a glue piece on bootspam and hazard stack teams the single worst ranked OU mon, bad opinion.


First of all, it can win games by itself. 2 winning games "by yourself" shouldn't be a criteria in the first place.

I don't have too many strong opinions on worst mon but I think dondozo can do some cool things outside stall. For example, you can use it as a win condition on offense, if you prioritize removing special attackers, then you essentially just win.

Also having a dondozo is always awkward for the opponent because they're reluctant to setup with physical attackers and will also be reluctant to play aggressively with their special attackers because they know they have to preserve them.

There's not too many win conditions that force you to preserve a counter, otherwise you instalose, the ones that do are all top rank (kingambit, zamazenta). Does that make dondozo top rank as well? Obviously not. But it's got a weird thing going where even though it does the same thing every game, that thing can have a different impact depending on the context of the team.

 

[40kultra]

Everything this 'mon does is exploitable. Grassy Terrain is cool, but in a screens meta it serves as a double edged sword, and often benefits the opponent more than its teammates. We're also seeing a ton of rocky helmets recently, which punishes pivot spamming (not to mention Rilla often just kills itself with wood hammer recoil into helmet).

How is Rillaboom exploitable? Grassy Terrain isn't a Double edged swords, rillaboom has knock off and U-turn as decent midgrounds into most checks and rocky helmets.

It hates facing common defensive staples like Pech, G-Weez, Hydrapple, or any of the birds.

so do most physical attackers

Another answer to consider:




All its sets have very exploitable downsides, which makes it hard to teambuild around.
- Band is heavily prediction reliant and serves as easy setup fodder even when you do click the correct move.
- SD Life Orb sets are powerful, but only ever get one chance for setup, and are easily answered by common anti-offense options due to limited coverage. You can run Tera Blast for this, but then the sets become extremely tera reliant.
- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.
- Boots helps with longevity problems, but you really feel the lack of power, and it needs specific support to work.
- Scarf exists only for the surprise factor, and suffers from the same damage issues Boots does. Once it's revealed it becomes even easier to play around than band.

-Band has 2 decent midground moves in in U-turn and Knock off, which makes it not as predict reliant?
-Rillaboom can find way more than one opportunity to set up, Ttar,ting lu, great tusk
-grassy glide, knock off, high horsepower, terablast is not limited coverage.
-boots isn't used outside of bootspam
-why is scarf even mentioned.

- Terrain Extender enables some neat synergy, but gterrain teams are extremely mediocre and rarely worth the teambuilding restrictions.

Calling Gterrain teams mediocre and restrictive in the teambuilder, not optimal for good takes.

It is not surprising at all that Rilla has by far the lowest winrate of any OU mon when you consider this SPL and last SCL. It was brought to 13 games this SPL and managed to only win one of them (7% winrate), with a 33% winrate last SCL over 18 games to boot. The meta is just not favorable to it at all right now.

Unironically using tournament winrate % as an argument when determining the viability of a mon in the ferocious 2026, not optimal for good argument.

Absolutely could have said this, it's not as bad as moth imo but the guy is kind of just useless into alot of the meta
I don't think it's bad or anything tho, but for the reasons you mentioned I definitely think it's just not allat, it has a lot of fundamental flaws that kind of make the mon in itself kind of weird
I will say tho 2hkoing Zapdos with tera grass wood hammer is insane, and it CAN revenge some stuff, along with knocking.
I think knock kind of saves this because otherwise it wouldn't ever be able to make progress versus a team with one of its trillion checks (pech, zap, molt, corv, heatran, torn, Dnite) and even so it kind of js does that and nothing more into such mus
Last time I mentioned ts mon I got 3 laugh reacts but yea based take

Trying to call a mon that is a glue to a lot of offense cores useless in the meta, absolutely crazy.

If we are going "worst in OU mons that are OU" -- I put them in two separate categories. The first is offensive pokemon that just got outclassed by something better even if what outclasses it doesn't serve as a direct substitute. Iron Moth for example has OU quality offensive traits, but it offers little defensive utility. To compensate, it would have to outspeed the entire tier consistently and that almost never happens even with a Booster Energy boost. I could run other offensive threats and get similar utility (Iron Valiant, Dragapult, etc) unless I wanted to stack them on HO. Iron Crown, Enamorus, and Rillaboom also fit the "good but not broken good" category that traps them in low OU / UUBL purgatory. The other category is walls or balance pokemon that are overpowered too often to justify a slot on a standard SV OU team. Clefable comes to mind here -- incredible movepool, great defensive traits, fun abilities...and then it has to stand up against Dragapult or Kyurem to justify its slot and that's not a guarantee. Dondozo would get my "worst in OU" vote only because Alomomola took its "Water Wall" role in the metagame and can't run enough moves to both heal itself and not flounder as a lame duck outside of stall. It never seemed to recover reputationally from Breaking Swipe Gouging Fire tearing into it even after Gouging Fire left the tier. Might as well pivot with Alomomola with AV or a Rocky Helmet chip instead.

Actual Nuance argument. but a few things
-Iron Moth does offer defensive utility to offense teams. it serves as a fairy resist so HO/offense teams don't immediately lose to iron val, enam, etc. it's also a fighting resist, a freeze dry switch in and tspike absorbtion. so it does have some defensive utility that it offers to offense teams.
-Clefable is easy to justify a slot, especially if you need a knock absorber for your bootspam, an additional stealth rock setter or potential wincon with CM flamethrower moonblast. although I agree you can't just randomly slap it on any balance team.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

What are your hot takes this generation?

Not sure if this is considered a hot take at this point but ogerpon-wellspring is absolutely not difficult to deal with at all. I also believe that unless you're building around terrain tealpon > rillaboom

Mine is that CM Raging Bolt is not that great as people seem to think. It needs tera to not instantly crumble against every Ground type, and even with tera it takes so much damage from something like Tusk Headlong Rush that it becomes easy target for a priority user like Scizor or Dragonite. And if the opponent has a Fairy type with Encore like Tinkaton or Iron Valiant and you get one prediction right with Dragon Pulse basically your sweeper is worthless. The best strenght that i can see to this set is that it pairs well with Kingambit offensively since it can lure in Great Tusk, but most teams have usually more than one way of dealing with Gambit, like burns from Heatran, Moltres or Cinderace, Lando, Multiscale Dragonite or a very niche and uncommon pokemon named Zamazenta

Yea I kind of agree with this one. Cm bolt with booster also feels a bit annoying because it becomes a lot worse once forced out, and yea, it loses to any ground, it loses to mostly any encore stuff, etc. specs is the best set by far in my opinion, but CM bolt isn't bad or whatnot- if you can remove said grounds it almost always wins on the spot, it works as a check to ceruledge on some offense teams, and the priority is very useful considering how strong a base 137 modest special attack + a 1.3x boost from booster energy really is
Band adamant bolt in sun best set trust me

Kyurem should be banned, partly because it limits a lot the special pivots that you can viably run and it forces a lot of constraint on the teambuilder to find consistent ways of handling it, specially building a consistent balance team feels almost impossible with Don Freeze-Dry rolling around OU. Also almost all of your options to handle Kyurem defensively leave you really vulnerable to Ghost and Dark types, except Tyranitar which is hard to fit into teams and if Kyurem really wants it can use Body Press on AV sets or Focus Blast on Specs

Absolutely not
Kyurem has switchins, first off. You have:
Ttar (body press is rare) crown, scor, AV hatt (fav special Kyurem check) (most decent mons with AV check it) and some other stuff
You can also run spdef molt, corv, or pivot glowking in
Even if it didn't have any switchins, let's say, it's still not banworthy.
You can easily out offense it, considering that Kyurem is extremely weak to rocks (they almost never run boots and if you do you're missing out on alot) it's also a relatively slow pokemon compared to alot of the meta
It's not too difficult to play around, you just gotta give it less free switchins and not let the Kyurem player gain the upper hand

Also it's not that hot but NP Pecharunt is underrated asf, this thing has like 2 checks in OU being Kingambit and Ting-Lu, and Clodsire that is in UU. The only real disadvantage is that you lose some defensive utility by the virtue of being OHKOed by a +2 Tera Water Ivy Cudgel from Wellspring, but if you can afford another way of dealing with Wellspring like Dragonite or Zama, NP Pecha becomes one of the most terrifying things you can see

Idk about this one, not because I disagree I just don't know, every time I make a np pech team I always end up wanting the pivot set because nothing really does pech's job quite like it

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Calling Gterrain teams mediocre and restrictive in the teambuilder, not optimal for good takes.

Unironically using tournament winrate % as an argument when determining the viability of a mon in the ferocious 2026, not optimal for good argument.

You sound like those mfs on tiktok who say "slumped posture. Not optimal. Eating eggs. Optimal."

Trying to call a mon that is a glue to a lot of offense cores useless in the meta, absolutely crazy.

Meant like, attacking wise, ts just takes rocks chip, does 20 to lu, gets ohkoed. Its pretty much useless once phased or forced out, and doesn't even have the damage output to do much
The booster speed set at least; I haven't really seen anything else on ladder get used so I can't really say that moth's other sets are good or bad.

 

[Heatranator]

no its not. if it has good defensive partners (pecharunt,tusk for example), spdef moltres is free to run. if moltres has to carry the team, it runs physdef, it's not rocket science.

I can say this about like, every single mon in the tier lol. A big reason to run moltres as I stated is to check kyurem, which if its not spdef, it struggles to do. But if you are not phys defense, you struggle to soft check the physical attackers that you really need to.

Citing sets specifically designed to tech for moltres to try and argue in favour of moltres being the worst OU ranked mon, not optimal for base argument.

I find this incredibly funny btw, I specifically listed sets that are used for reasons other then just beating Moltres. Which I also said in the post.... Like, you aren't using tera fire zama just for moltres, you are also using it for the wisp pult mu and for the fairy resist. You also have AOA zama using stedge for stuff like Zapdos and Torn too. You use Tbolt Val to help into AV mola, spdef corv and AV torn. Most teams will have these sorta techs which make moltres a lot more difficult to pilot in games. Also idk where the attitude is coming from?

Dozo is Dozo on stall, but its not the glue. there have been stall teams without dondozo. not optimal for base argument.

This is also not a good arguement. There have been stall teams without blissey as well, the issue is that you are having to heavily compensate for the sweepers that each mon beats. These teams thus end up losing to a lot of random sweepers, which is not exactly ideal. Dozo is a decent mon that can be used not only on stall, but also on balance and even offense (I used it on veil in an RMT a while back, it is not a fake mon on those teams as it can be incredibly annoying to take down while stopping opposing offense).

Finally, rilla is in no way or shape the worst mon by a long shot. If you just focus on the offensive attributes, its going to be ass. Rillaboom's primary reason for being used is that even in mu's where it doesn't do much, it supports teammates incredibly. Let's also not use wr as a statistic, darkrai has like, 20% winrate currently in SPL and if you tried to argue darkrai is bad you would genuinelly be laughed out of the room.

 

[40kultra]

I can say this about like, every single mon in the tier lol. A big reason to run moltres as I stated is to check kyurem, which if its not spdef, it struggles to do. But if you are not phys defense, you struggle to soft check the physical attackers that you really need to.

A big reason to run moltres is because it's the premier physical defense check in the tier. Spdef moltres is a set ony the privledge can run. also side note spdef moltres only really checks Subtect Kyurem(which isn't hard to check in the first place) it's cooked vs DD variants and specs variants.

I find this incredibly funny btw, I specifically listed sets that are used for reasons other then just beating Moltres. Which I also said in the post.... Like, you aren't using tera fire zama just for moltres, you are also using it for the wisp pult mu and for the fairy resist. You also have AOA zama using stedge for stuff like Zapdos and Torn too. You use Tbolt Val to help into AV mola, spdef corv and AV torn. Most teams will have these sorta techs which make moltres a lot more difficult to pilot in games.

I'm obviously not refering to tera fire zama. i'm refering to your other examples like stone edge dnite, stone edge tusk which are specifically to tech for moltres, also moltres is still the main reason why most physical attackers run tera fire, to avoid the most common burn spreader in the tier. obviously also has other uses, but trying to make it seem like hex pult and spdef corv is a major deal compared to moltres, not optimal for good take.

Also idk where the attitude is coming from?

It's not attitude, i'm just adressing a bad take.

This is also not a good arguement. There have been stall teams without blissey as well

what does blissey have anything to do with this? this is about dondozo specifically.

Dozo is a decent mon that can be used not only on stall, but also on balance.

I did acknowledge that dozo can be used on balanced teams.

outside of stall and certain fat balance teams.

Here^

and even offense (I used it on veil in an RMT a while back, it is not a fake mon on those teams as it can be incredibly annoying to take down while stopping opposing offense).

Citing an outdated RMT used for MU fishing on OLT ladder to try and justify ho dozo. not optimal for being convincing.

Finally, rilla is in no way or shape the worst mon by a long shot. If you just focus on the offensive attributes, its going to be ass. Rillaboom's primary reason for being used is that even in mu's where it doesn't do much, it supports teammates incredibly. Let's also not use wr as a statistic, darkrai has like, 20% winrate currently in SPL and if you tried to argue darkrai is bad you would genuinelly be laughed out of the room.

Agreed. Tournament usage shouldn't be unironically used in viability arguments.

 

[UltraSword]

Calling Lando-t the worst OU ground when iron treads exist, absolute insanity

Iron Treads is really good. Being faster than Kyurem and ground steel typing are a big advantage over Great Tusk and other ground types. It is also one of the better answers to Raging Bolt thanks to said typing which is great since not many things can switch in well against it without guessing correctly what move it will use. Lando T is worse because it has none of those advantages and has less role compression.

Calling gliscor the better flying/ground, absolute insanity.

Gliscor has great longevity, spikes, knock off, and status which are all big advantages over Lando T.

saying offensive teams have better options, when there's no mons that can replicate what lando-T offers to offense, insanity.

The only thing Lando T has over Great Tusk in most instances are intimidate and u-turn, both of which are good but don't always make it better. Edit: I forgot to mention taunt but that doesn't make a big enough difference.

Lando-T is fine without Defog.

I agree but it is definitely something it would love to have to allow it to compete more with Great Tusk.

None of this is to say Lando T is bad as it is plenty viable still and special sets really helped it stand out but I think it is overall worse than the other ground types in OU.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Iron Treads is really good. Being faster than Kyurem and ground steel typing are a big advantage over Great Tusk and other ground types. It is also one of the better answers to Raging Bolt thanks to said typing which is great since not many things can switch in well against it without guessing correctly what move it will use. Lando T is worse because it has none of those advantages and has less role compression.


Gliscor has great longevity, spikes, knock off, and status which are all big advantages over Lando T.


The only thing Lando T has over Great Tusk in most instances are intimidate and u-turn, both of which are good but don't always make it better.


I agree but it is definitely something it would love to have to allow it to compete more with Great Tusk.

None of this is to say Lando T is bad as it is plenty viable still and special sets really helped it stand out but I think it is overall worse than the other ground types in OU.

I didn't even see that this guy said any of this stuff
Lando, while still good, is definitely the worst ground in the tier. For starters, when looking for removal options, you will mostly land on treads / tusk. Using lando on the same team would just be stacking types, and is mostly unneeded when tusk can role compress what lando does anyways.
Gliscor is also def the better ground/fly what? I don't even see how this is an argument- Lando's only better on more offensive structures which already have some sort of removal in glimmora/ace (or don't even use it) and don't need to use tusk for spinning, so lando can compress as a zama check + rocker + stopgap to some threats

lando is shiest and I love using it (for example on something like this https://pokepast.es/9957cd979143395f ) but there's a reason why I have scor / tusk on more teams.

 

[moore's law]

I don't know why are people arguing about what is the worst ground type. They all fit different roles on different team styles and are great in those roles.

Gliscor is also def the better ground/fly what? I don't even see how this is an argument- Lando's only better on more offensive structures which already have some sort of removal in glimmora/ace (or don't even use it) and don't need to use tusk for spinning, so lando can compress as a zama check + rocker + stopgap to some threats

Lando is great on offense and BO, which are the best team archetypes this gen. I also agree with this point raised in the post above - it and Gliscor fit completely different roles. Lando's role is to get deny hazards against slower leads, get rocks and then spam U-turn (or EQ if you have eliminated the opponents flying types/leviate mons.) It isn't supposed to last long - helmet + intimidate means that most Dnites that don't run Ice Spinner are going to be forced out because Lando denies them attack boosts and threatens to break multiscale with u-turn (attacking it also breaks multiscale if helmet and if their best move against it is Espeed, which is not that unusual - quite a lot of greedy DD/EQ/Espeed/Roost Dnites these days.) Intimidate + helmet annoys a lot of setup sweepers late game, this is a mon that gives utility to its team even as a sac. It has the defensive typing of Gliscor + the best bulk of the bunch with intimidate, uninvested Lando hits harder than max attack treads. It also has its special sets, but I am not as much of a fan of those with so many random AV mons running around atm. Lando is also the best speed control as a scarfer of the lot because of U-turn + its speed tier.

All of them are good on teams that appreciate them, Treads is a great check to Bolt for teams which are weak to it. I saw an OST replay (I think Vert vs clean) recently where a booster attack treads did ~40 to +1 Zama, which was pretty crazy as well, I think this mon has a lot of options. Gliscor has insane longevity and a great typing (but it has its own drawbacks, utility scor is primarily a balance or stall mon, SD is balance/offense.) SD gliscor is not an alternative as an offensive mon to Lando, their profiles are completely different - it is a stall and balance breaker. Tusk, like lando, is best on BO and offense, it is better on teams with stuff like Kyurem or boots less Nite that need the removal, is also a bit better into Gambit, and with booster attack can punch holes in your opponents team mid game, especially if it gets a spin off and outspeeds almost everything without a scarf.

When it comes to the ground types that are actually worse than these guys - what do people think about mold breaker drill's niche as a special defensive treads alternative? It is way stronger, has similar special bulk, and gets rocks up consistently against hatterene + ignores Nite multiscale. Obviously, this is not a good tradeoff in most cases, treads is more useful most of the time because its defense is so much better, notably giving it a chance to live +2 kingambit sucker punch in the late game and live all kinds of other stuff with tera ghost. Are there are any teams that could benefit from this?

 

[40kultra]

Cmon guys there is no way we are seriously trying t argue that Lando-T is worst than Iron treads...

Iron Treads is really good. OU.

it's good. really good is super glaze.

Iron Treads is really good. Being faster than Kyurem and ground steel typing are a big advantage over Great Tusk and other ground types.

-Citing Kyurem in a treads propaganda post when treads is a steel type that doesn't even resist ice beam and can't hit kyurem back for any damage unless it runs iron head(which barely anyone runs), not optimal for argument. don't get me wrong, ground steel is a good typing but the kyurem point is super wack.

Iron Treads is really good. Being faster than Kyurem and ground steel typing are a big advantage over Great Tusk and other ground types. It is also one of the better answers to Raging Bolt thanks to said typing which is great since not many things can switch in well against it without guessing correctly what move it will use. Lando T is worse because it has none of those advantages and has less role compression.

just because something has role compression, doesn't make it the better mon. iron treads is slop and a copium pick for teams whos weak to raging bolt. saying Lando has "less role compression" when it's literally a ground immune, electric immune, stealth rock setter, and pivot all at once while the only advantage iron treads has is that its better into raging bolt and immune to maliginant chain, not optimal for honest argument.

Gliscor has great longevity, spikes, knock off, and status which are all big advantages over Lando T.

Agreed, still doesn't make Gliscor better than Lando-t. Lando-t offers immediate damage and pressure and has a better Matchup into physical attackers thanks to its intimidate ability, also doesn't suffer from 4 move syndrome as much as gliscor. they both operate differently and benefit different structures more so you can't really say one is more outclassed than the other.

The only thing Lando T has over Great Tusk in most instances are intimidate and u-turn, both of which are good but don't always make it better. Edit: I forgot to mention taunt but that doesn't make a big enough difference.

you're undermining intimidate like it's something minor and unimportant, when it's actually a major factor. you also forgot to mention Lando-T being a ground immune. Lando-T and Great tusk don't even play the same role in the first place.

I agree but it is definitely something it would love to have to allow it to compete more with Great Tusk.

None of this is to say Lando T is bad as it is plenty viable still and special sets really helped it stand out but I think it is overall worse than the other ground types in OU.

For sure it would've been nice, but still definitely not the worst ground ranked OU.

I didn't even see that this guy said any of this stuff

Yea, can't believe it!

Lando, while still good, is definitely the worst ground in the tier.

Can we drop this take please

For starters, when looking for removal options, you will mostly land on treads / tusk. Using lando on the same team would just be stacking types, and is mostly unneeded when tusk can role compress what lando does anyways.

For starters, why is Lando-t in the convos of hazard removal when it's not even it's role?
2. teams with Tusk and Lando on the same team are viable. Tusk being rocks opens up for Lando to run scarf, Lando being rocks opens up great tusk to explore more offensive sets like bulk up speed booster, choiced tusk, 3 attacks spin tusk, etc.
3. Lando and treads on the same team is absolute insanity, shouldn't be happening.
4.How does tusk role compress what lando-t does when it cant even click u-turn and be immune to ground attacks.

Gliscor is also def the better ground/fly what? I don't even see how this is an argument

If you can't see, I dont know what to say at this point.

Lando's only better on more offensive structures which already have some sort of removal in glimmora/ace (or don't even use it) and don't need to use tusk for spinning, so lando can compress as a zama check + rocker + stopgap to some threats

again why is Lando being compared to mons with completely different roles.

lando is shiest and I love using it (for example on something like this https://pokepast.es/9957cd979143395f ) but there's a reason why I have scor / tusk on more teams.

This argument was about Lando-T somehow being worst than iron treads and we somehow ended up comparing it to great tusk, who was not involved at all as its obviously the premier ground of OU.

I don't know why are people arguing about what is the worst ground type. They all fit different roles on different team styles and are great in those roles.



Lando is great on offense and BO, which are the best team archetypes this gen. I also agree with this point raised in the post above - it and Gliscor fit completely different roles. Lando's role is to get deny hazards against slower leads, get rocks and then spam U-turn (or EQ if you have eliminated the opponents flying types/leviate mons.) It isn't supposed to last long - helmet + intimidate means that most Dnites that don't run Ice Spinner are going to be forced out because Lando denies them attack boosts and threatens to break multiscale with u-turn (attacking it also breaks multiscale if helmet and if their best move against it is Espeed, which is not that unusual - quite a lot of greedy DD/EQ/Espeed/Roost Dnites these days.) Intimidate + helmet annoys a lot of setup sweepers late game, this is a mon that gives utility to its team even as a sac. It has the defensive typing of Gliscor + the best bulk of the bunch with intimidate, uninvested Lando hits harder than max attack treads. It also has its special sets, but I am not as much of a fan of those with so many random AV mons running around atm. Lando is also the best speed control as a scarfer of the lot because of U-turn + its speed tier.

All of them are good on teams that appreciate them, Treads is a great check to Bolt for teams which are weak to it, Gliscor has insane longevity and a great typing (but it has its own drawbacks, utility scor is primarily a balance or stall mon, SD is balance/offense.) SD gliscor is not an alternative as an offensive mon to Lando, their profiles are completely different - it is a stall and balance breaker. Tusk, like lando, is best on BO and offense, it is better on teams with stuff like Kyurem or boots less Nite that need the removal, is also a bit better into Gambit, and with booster attack can punch holes in your opponents team mid game, especially if it gets a spin off and outspeeds almost everything without a scarf.

Nuance statement, common sense.

 

[Heatranator]

A big reason to run moltres is because it's the premier physical defense check in the tier. Spdef moltres is a set ony the privledge can run. also side note spdef moltres only really checks Subtect Kyurem(which isn't hard to check in the first place) it's cooked vs DD variants and specs variants.

If spdef moltres is a priviledge, then that isn't really good considering the fact that spdef is the main set that can do a very important attribute of molt (checking kyurem). Also molt checks both AV and subtect kyurem, which AV is an extremely popular set. Physically defensive molt also I wouldn't consider a premier physical defense check since so many things can just easily nuke it with not much trouble (as I have outlined in other posts).

I'm obviously not refering to tera fire zama. i'm refering to your other examples like stone edge dnite, stone edge tusk which are specifically to tech for moltres, also moltres is still the main reason why most physical attackers run tera fire, to avoid the most common burn spreader in the tier. obviously also has other uses, but trying to make it seem like hex pult and spdef corv is a major deal compared to moltres, not optimal for good take.

Both of those are not used just for moltres. Stedge dnite and tusk help them not proc static on zapdos while also having stronger hits on both Corv and Torn-t as well. These moves would not be used nearly as much if there only use was hitting molt. People run tera fire because not only is it a great defensive typing to help check fairy types like enam and val while also taking on fire type attackers like cinder and heatran, but also it makes sure the other wisp users in cinder and pult are setup fodder for these users. This is why i did not list stuff like rock slide kyurem, those are examples of moves used just to tech moltres.

It's not attitude, i'm just adressing a bad take.

Saying "this is not optimal for a good take" adds nothing to the arguement. It just makes people more annoyed.

what does blissey have anything to do with this? this is about dondozo specifically.

I am comparing your example of "dozo is not glue on stall" and you then citing teams running stall without dozo. Because the other glue mon, blissey, has been dropped on stall as well. See the whitequeen stall for an example of a blisseyless stall. But the reason why like, 90% of stall teams have blissey and dozo is because they check a large swathe of the metagame.

Citing an outdated RMT used for MU fishing on OLT ladder to try and justify ho dozo. not optimal for being convincing.

LOL. As the creator of that RMT, this is so not true in the slightest. I created that team a while before OLT even started. I've had people still use it in todays meta and would you guess, it works. Dozo on HO is used primarily because it can be an insanely great endgame mon that can also stop opposing setup sweepers in its tracks, allowing teammates to focus more on the bulkier teams that dozo may struggle with. Is it the most used pokemon on HO? No. But it can work and chalking it up to "MU fishing" is just funny.