Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[moore's law]

I don't know why are people arguing about what is the worst ground type. They all fit different roles on different team styles and are great in those roles.

Gliscor is also def the better ground/fly what? I don't even see how this is an argument- Lando's only better on more offensive structures which already have some sort of removal in glimmora/ace (or don't even use it) and don't need to use tusk for spinning, so lando can compress as a zama check + rocker + stopgap to some threats

Lando is great on offense and BO, which are the best team archetypes this gen. I also agree with this point raised in the post above - it and Gliscor fit completely different roles. Lando's role is to get deny hazards against slower leads, get rocks and then spam U-turn (or EQ if you have eliminated the opponents flying types/leviate mons.) It isn't supposed to last long - helmet + intimidate means that most Dnites that don't run Ice Spinner are going to be forced out because Lando denies them attack boosts and threatens to break multiscale with u-turn (attacking it also breaks multiscale if helmet and if their best move against it is Espeed, which is not that unusual - quite a lot of greedy DD/EQ/Espeed/Roost Dnites these days.) Intimidate + helmet annoys a lot of setup sweepers late game, this is a mon that gives utility to its team even as a sac. It has the defensive typing of Gliscor + the best bulk of the bunch with intimidate, uninvested Lando hits harder than max attack treads. It also has its special sets, but I am not as much of a fan of those with so many random AV mons running around atm. Lando is also the best speed control as a scarfer of the lot because of U-turn + its speed tier.

All of them are good on teams that appreciate them, Treads is a great check to Bolt for teams which are weak to it. I saw an OST replay (I think Vert vs clean) recently where a booster attack treads did ~40 to +1 Zama, which was pretty crazy as well, I think this mon has a lot of options. Gliscor has insane longevity and a great typing (but it has its own drawbacks, utility scor is primarily a balance or stall mon, SD is balance/offense.) SD gliscor is not an alternative as an offensive mon to Lando, their profiles are completely different - it is a stall and balance breaker. Tusk, like lando, is best on BO and offense, it is better on teams with stuff like Kyurem or boots less Nite that need the removal, is also a bit better into Gambit, and with booster attack can punch holes in your opponents team mid game, especially if it gets a spin off and outspeeds almost everything without a scarf.

When it comes to the ground types that are actually worse than these guys - what do people think about mold breaker drill's niche as a special defensive treads alternative? It is way stronger, has similar special bulk, and gets rocks up consistently against hatterene + ignores Nite multiscale. Obviously, this is not a good tradeoff in most cases, treads is more useful most of the time because its defense is so much better, notably giving it a chance to live +2 kingambit sucker punch in the late game and live all kinds of other stuff with tera ghost. Are there are any teams that could benefit from this?

 

[40kultra]

Cmon guys there is no way we are seriously trying t argue that Lando-T is worst than Iron treads...

Iron Treads is really good. OU.

it's good. really good is super glaze.

Iron Treads is really good. Being faster than Kyurem and ground steel typing are a big advantage over Great Tusk and other ground types.

-Citing Kyurem in a treads propaganda post when treads is a steel type that doesn't even resist ice beam and can't hit kyurem back for any damage unless it runs iron head(which barely anyone runs), not optimal for argument. don't get me wrong, ground steel is a good typing but the kyurem point is super wack.

Iron Treads is really good. Being faster than Kyurem and ground steel typing are a big advantage over Great Tusk and other ground types. It is also one of the better answers to Raging Bolt thanks to said typing which is great since not many things can switch in well against it without guessing correctly what move it will use. Lando T is worse because it has none of those advantages and has less role compression.

just because something has role compression, doesn't make it the better mon. iron treads is slop and a copium pick for teams whos weak to raging bolt. saying Lando has "less role compression" when it's literally a ground immune, electric immune, stealth rock setter, and pivot all at once while the only advantage iron treads has is that its better into raging bolt and immune to maliginant chain, not optimal for honest argument.

Gliscor has great longevity, spikes, knock off, and status which are all big advantages over Lando T.

Agreed, still doesn't make Gliscor better than Lando-t. Lando-t offers immediate damage and pressure and has a better Matchup into physical attackers thanks to its intimidate ability, also doesn't suffer from 4 move syndrome as much as gliscor. they both operate differently and benefit different structures more so you can't really say one is more outclassed than the other.

The only thing Lando T has over Great Tusk in most instances are intimidate and u-turn, both of which are good but don't always make it better. Edit: I forgot to mention taunt but that doesn't make a big enough difference.

you're undermining intimidate like it's something minor and unimportant, when it's actually a major factor. you also forgot to mention Lando-T being a ground immune. Lando-T and Great tusk don't even play the same role in the first place.

I agree but it is definitely something it would love to have to allow it to compete more with Great Tusk.

None of this is to say Lando T is bad as it is plenty viable still and special sets really helped it stand out but I think it is overall worse than the other ground types in OU.

For sure it would've been nice, but still definitely not the worst ground ranked OU.

I didn't even see that this guy said any of this stuff

Yea, can't believe it!

Lando, while still good, is definitely the worst ground in the tier.

Can we drop this take please

For starters, when looking for removal options, you will mostly land on treads / tusk. Using lando on the same team would just be stacking types, and is mostly unneeded when tusk can role compress what lando does anyways.

For starters, why is Lando-t in the convos of hazard removal when it's not even it's role?
2. teams with Tusk and Lando on the same team are viable. Tusk being rocks opens up for Lando to run scarf, Lando being rocks opens up great tusk to explore more offensive sets like bulk up speed booster, choiced tusk, 3 attacks spin tusk, etc.
3. Lando and treads on the same team is absolute insanity, shouldn't be happening.
4.How does tusk role compress what lando-t does when it cant even click u-turn and be immune to ground attacks.

Gliscor is also def the better ground/fly what? I don't even see how this is an argument

If you can't see, I dont know what to say at this point.

Lando's only better on more offensive structures which already have some sort of removal in glimmora/ace (or don't even use it) and don't need to use tusk for spinning, so lando can compress as a zama check + rocker + stopgap to some threats

again why is Lando being compared to mons with completely different roles.

lando is shiest and I love using it (for example on something like this https://pokepast.es/9957cd979143395f ) but there's a reason why I have scor / tusk on more teams.

This argument was about Lando-T somehow being worst than iron treads and we somehow ended up comparing it to great tusk, who was not involved at all as its obviously the premier ground of OU.

I don't know why are people arguing about what is the worst ground type. They all fit different roles on different team styles and are great in those roles.



Lando is great on offense and BO, which are the best team archetypes this gen. I also agree with this point raised in the post above - it and Gliscor fit completely different roles. Lando's role is to get deny hazards against slower leads, get rocks and then spam U-turn (or EQ if you have eliminated the opponents flying types/leviate mons.) It isn't supposed to last long - helmet + intimidate means that most Dnites that don't run Ice Spinner are going to be forced out because Lando denies them attack boosts and threatens to break multiscale with u-turn (attacking it also breaks multiscale if helmet and if their best move against it is Espeed, which is not that unusual - quite a lot of greedy DD/EQ/Espeed/Roost Dnites these days.) Intimidate + helmet annoys a lot of setup sweepers late game, this is a mon that gives utility to its team even as a sac. It has the defensive typing of Gliscor + the best bulk of the bunch with intimidate, uninvested Lando hits harder than max attack treads. It also has its special sets, but I am not as much of a fan of those with so many random AV mons running around atm. Lando is also the best speed control as a scarfer of the lot because of U-turn + its speed tier.

All of them are good on teams that appreciate them, Treads is a great check to Bolt for teams which are weak to it, Gliscor has insane longevity and a great typing (but it has its own drawbacks, utility scor is primarily a balance or stall mon, SD is balance/offense.) SD gliscor is not an alternative as an offensive mon to Lando, their profiles are completely different - it is a stall and balance breaker. Tusk, like lando, is best on BO and offense, it is better on teams with stuff like Kyurem or boots less Nite that need the removal, is also a bit better into Gambit, and with booster attack can punch holes in your opponents team mid game, especially if it gets a spin off and outspeeds almost everything without a scarf.

Nuance statement, common sense.

 

[Heatranator]

A big reason to run moltres is because it's the premier physical defense check in the tier. Spdef moltres is a set ony the privledge can run. also side note spdef moltres only really checks Subtect Kyurem(which isn't hard to check in the first place) it's cooked vs DD variants and specs variants.

If spdef moltres is a priviledge, then that isn't really good considering the fact that spdef is the main set that can do a very important attribute of molt (checking kyurem). Also molt checks both AV and subtect kyurem, which AV is an extremely popular set. Physically defensive molt also I wouldn't consider a premier physical defense check since so many things can just easily nuke it with not much trouble (as I have outlined in other posts).

I'm obviously not refering to tera fire zama. i'm refering to your other examples like stone edge dnite, stone edge tusk which are specifically to tech for moltres, also moltres is still the main reason why most physical attackers run tera fire, to avoid the most common burn spreader in the tier. obviously also has other uses, but trying to make it seem like hex pult and spdef corv is a major deal compared to moltres, not optimal for good take.

Both of those are not used just for moltres. Stedge dnite and tusk help them not proc static on zapdos while also having stronger hits on both Corv and Torn-t as well. These moves would not be used nearly as much if there only use was hitting molt. People run tera fire because not only is it a great defensive typing to help check fairy types like enam and val while also taking on fire type attackers like cinder and heatran, but also it makes sure the other wisp users in cinder and pult are setup fodder for these users. This is why i did not list stuff like rock slide kyurem, those are examples of moves used just to tech moltres.

It's not attitude, i'm just adressing a bad take.

Saying "this is not optimal for a good take" adds nothing to the arguement. It just makes people more annoyed.

what does blissey have anything to do with this? this is about dondozo specifically.

I am comparing your example of "dozo is not glue on stall" and you then citing teams running stall without dozo. Because the other glue mon, blissey, has been dropped on stall as well. See the whitequeen stall for an example of a blisseyless stall. But the reason why like, 90% of stall teams have blissey and dozo is because they check a large swathe of the metagame.

Citing an outdated RMT used for MU fishing on OLT ladder to try and justify ho dozo. not optimal for being convincing.

LOL. As the creator of that RMT, this is so not true in the slightest. I created that team a while before OLT even started. I've had people still use it in todays meta and would you guess, it works. Dozo on HO is used primarily because it can be an insanely great endgame mon that can also stop opposing setup sweepers in its tracks, allowing teammates to focus more on the bulkier teams that dozo may struggle with. Is it the most used pokemon on HO? No. But it can work and chalking it up to "MU fishing" is just funny.

 

[Ghoulish Champ]

Citing an outdated RMT used for MU fishing on OLT ladder to try and justify ho dozo. not optimal for being convincing.

is this u bro? No wonder u say its outdated u ain't high enough to get farmed by me, dont call a team an mu fish just cus u dont understand it.

Dozo has its uses on of stall and fat balance but it's not limited to that, 3d used tera ice resto chesto dozo in scl on a team made by lax. dozo outside of its usual structures is underexplored and it can be good on faster balances and HO.

for what I think is the worst ou mon I'd probably say primarina, at one point this mon was very good but that time has long since passed rn prima is in an awkward place av is still its best set but it gets chipped easily and vs bulky structures it struggles, cm has such a hard time getting setup in current meta I don't think it's good anymore.

honorable mention: iron moth when it doesn't get the fiery dance boost

 

[mcribs]

ok so i was gonna not yap but someone finally mentioned prim thank god

crown is still a decent pivot with av and specs can muscle through a lot of stuff with pure firepower using tera steel. I dont personally use booster crown but it is seeing a rise so good for it.

Molt def has taken a hit with the amount of knock + coverage / tera fire (or if youre dnite just pure muscle through with tb flying) but would i call it the worst? nah, guy still has use. its still doing the same stuff, just more stuff has to shove coverage up their ass for it, which costs a valuable moveslot(eg tusk run rock coverage which means its not running smth like knock or cc or rocks). spdef should not be the selling point for molt lol just use phydef, most i'd do is mixed bulk but thats a whole other thing.

Moth is wack with an *. booster special attack and max spa in general is way better. you muscle through a lot of stuff if you got the coverage. helps that heatran is starting to fall off so tb ground or water is really not that needed. just pls get the fiery dance boost. dont use booster speed its so dix

Dozo def isnt the best goober but its still an ok ish guy. sure you see it most on stall but theres still some instances of dozo outside of it.
https://pokepast.es/2049ae839df69072
blim balance features dozo and thats been a sample for a while using both phys def and spdef.
https://pokepast.es/763f33daba980d55
theres ofc the dozo veil. its been a while since ive seen it but its a neat team Heatranator add shell smash magcargo like Ghoulish Champ did on ladder one time and my life is yours
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2405401429-2lds5g4yn7eit6jrnf8odl5d5o3677vpw

RIlla is def not bad lmao. tb elec tb fire and tb rock rilla are all sets that are rising with sd lorb. gterrain teams are a sample now and even without being centered around hawlucha and whatever teams just generally like the healing. gets annoyed but birds but most physical attackers are annoyed by them so moot point anyways.

Enam is a favorite of mine to use. Scarf is very useful overall, and specs is just a really strong wall breaker. typing is still solid. does what it needs to which is clean, healing wish maybe, revenge kill, and check grounds. if anyone wants to use tb flying that would be cool.

Prim though? yeah it has some really deep flaws. its usually barely hanging on above the 4.52% cutoff for a reason. youd think prim would really love the meta since it trades so much, but balance slap glowking or av alo on everything, and offensive teams carry wellspring or smth that naturally outspeed and power through. av isnt bad per say but it gets overwhelmed very easily and barely lives a 1v1 with some special attackers like kyu and bolt. i rarely see cm at all and only the bulky one i really like. even then it takes forever to set up.

also the grounds are usually on the same footing in terms of viability. they can kinda do whatever a team wants and you can viably run double ground anyways.

 

[1LDK]

is this u bro? No wonder u say its outdated u ain't high enough to get farmed by me, dont call a team an mu fish just cus u dont understand it.

Dozo has its uses outside of stall in fat balance but it's not limited to that, 3d used tera ice resto chesto dozo in scl on a team made by lax. dozo outside of its usual structures is underexplored and it can be good on faster balances and HO.

for what I think is the worst ou mon I'd probably say primarina, at one point this mon was very good but that time has long since passed rn prima is in an awkward place av is still its best set but it gets chipped easily and vs bulky structures it struggles, cm has such a hard time getting setup in current meta I don't think it's good anymore.

honorable mention: iron moth when it doesn't get the fiery dance boost

Bro why are you prouder to use cheese donzo screens than real men moltres sun. bum ass fraud lmaoooooooooooooo

 

[Ghoulish Champ]

Bro why are you prouder to use cheese donzo screens than real men moltres sun. bum ass fraud lmaoooooooooooooo

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Yea, can't believe it!

Insult, and ego, not optimal for argument

Can we drop this take please

Asking to drop a take for no reason, not optimal for argument

For starters, why is Lando-t in the convos of hazard removal when it's not even it's role?
2. teams with Tusk and Lando on the same team are viable. Tusk being rocks opens up for Lando to run scarf, Lando being rocks opens up great tusk to explore more offensive sets like bulk up speed booster, choiced tusk, 3 attacks spin tusk, etc.
3. Lando and treads on the same team is absolute insanity, shouldn't be happening.
4.How does tusk role compress what lando-t does when it cant even click u-turn and be immune to ground attacks.

You're clearly missing my point here lmao, I'm saying that you have to stack grounds if you want removal on MOST teams which isn't good alot of the time. Lando does stuff tusk can't but it's difficult to justify stacking two different grounds on teams.
Bad debate, not optimal for argument.

is this u bro? No wonder u say its outdated u ain't high enough to get farmed by me, dont call a team an mu fish just cus u dont understand it.

Dozo has its uses outside of stall in fat balance but it's not limited to that, 3d used tera ice resto chesto dozo in scl on a team made by lax. dozo outside of its usual structures is underexplored and it can be good on faster balances and HO.

Highkey never seen these types of teams but I am pretty new to all ts
Mind dropping me them would like to try them out

for what I think is the worst ou mon I'd probably say primarina, at one point this mon was very good but that time has long since passed rn prima is in an awkward place av is still its best set but it gets chipped easily and vs bulky structures it struggles, cm has such a hard time getting setup in current meta I don't think it's good anymore.

I don't think it's worse than moth, but yea prim doesn't feel as good as it once was, doesn't do much to alo/gking
Real mons players run modest specs hydro pump to 2hko glowking
I still think it's a good pokemon tho definitely, it compresses as a check to alot of things

Also
The take for moltres as worst is crazy, I definitely think Zapdos is superior to it but it spreads burns, is a good pivot and check to quite alot of mons in the tier.
It is prone to being knocked so I won't say it's the best thing ever but yea

 

[Ghoulish Champ]

Highkey never seen these types of teams but I am pretty new to all ts
Mind dropping me them would like to try them out

https://pokepast.es/8c6805ab41069dfa this is the lax scl team 3d used
https://pokepast.es/34d29b6d8b072a11 this is dozo HOmade by heatranator i used in olt

I don't think it's worse than moth, but yea prim doesn't feel as good as it once was, doesn't do much to alo/gking
Real mons players run modest specs hydro pump to 2hko glowking
I still think it's a good pokemon tho definitely, it compresses as a check to alot of things

yeah rise of av mola was bad for prim and gking's always been there. specs prim is a funny set I've faced it on ladder a few times, catches you of guard. and my main problem with prim is its got a lot that it can check but often only ends up being able to check one or two mons cus its very easy to chip and has no recovery.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

https://pokepast.es/8c6805ab41069dfa this is the lax scl team 3d used
https://pokepast.es/34d29b6d8b072a11 this is dozo HO i used in olt

Alr ty

yeah rise of av mola was bad for prim and gking's always been there. specs prim is a funny set I've faced it on ladder a few times, catches you of guard. and my main problem with prim is its got a lot that it can check but often only ends up being able to check one or two mons cus its very easy to chip and has no recovery.

I used specs prim before, the issue is it's mostly worse than enamorus besides the fact that it can pivot + the water stab is nice I guess
And once the surprise factor is gone it's a lot less good

I feel like prims very easily overwhelmed, but into non-glowking/mola structures it does get to force a lot of progress

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

Thoughts on and on the current meta? I think that they have some important strengths but they are kind of niche overall

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

I honestly like many of the traits that brings to the table, such as being a pokemon that can check both , some variants of like Tera Flying or 3 attacks with Ice Spinner and with Will O Wisp, having Pain Split for walls like or , immunity to Spikes and TSpikes so it's harder to pressure with hazards and a powerful Volt Switch that can pressure pokemon such as or My main problem with this pokemon is that your physical pivot doesn't answer unless you tera, and it's defensive stats are starting to feel insufficient for a metagame as powerful as SVOU is. It doesn't help either that you give a free switch to unless you Volt Switch

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ground / Fire
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Tera Blast
- Glare
- Dragon Pulse / Substitute

Althought the competition for an offensive Grass type Is fierce, is an interesting choice because it has a lot of nice qualities, like Glare to cripple switchins like or and being a more offensive check with Contrary Leaf Storm. SubGlare is devilish on many matchups and Contrary also provides a Sticky Web anti cheese option. Basically my problem with this mon is that while it's not frail also it's not as bulky as it needs to be, and this can be a problem without Synthesis, and it has a notable 4MSS it wants Leaf Storm, Glare, Sub, Dragon Pulse, Tera Blast Fire and Ground, otherwise it will be always walled by something. If you don't have Dragon Pulse then turns you into setup fodder, if you don't have Tera Ground Blast good luck breaking through and without Tera Blast Fire walls you and it has the most free U-Turn ever

 

[JackRG]

Thoughts on and on the current meta? I think that they have some important strengths but they are kind of niche overall

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

I honestly like many of the traits that brings to the table, such as being a pokemon that can check both , some variants of like Tera Flying or 3 attacks with Ice Spinner and with Will O Wisp, having Pain Split for walls like or , immunity to Spikes and TSpikes so it's harder to pressure with hazards and a powerful Volt Switch that can pressure pokemon such as or My main problem with this pokemon is that your physical pivot doesn't answer unless you tera, and it's defensive stats are starting to feel insufficient for a metagame as powerful as SVOU is. It doesn't help either that you give a free switch to unless you Volt Switch

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ground / Fire
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Tera Blast
- Glare
- Dragon Pulse / Substitute

Althought the competition for an offensive Grass type Is fierce, is an interesting choice because it has a lot of nice qualities, like Glare to cripple switchins like or and being a more offensive check with Contrary Leaf Storm. SubGlare is devilish on many matchups and Contrary also provides a Sticky Web anti cheese option. Basically my problem with this mon is that while it's not frail also it's not as bulky as it needs to be, and this can be a problem without Synthesis, and it has a notable 4MSS it wants Leaf Storm, Glare, Sub, Dragon Pulse, Tera Blast Fire and Ground, otherwise it will be always walled by something. If you don't have Dragon Pulse then turns you into setup fodder, if you don't have Tera Ground Blast good luck breaking through and without Tera Blast Fire walls you and it has the most free U-Turn ever

Serp is pretty underrated tbh. Not as much of a tera hog as people think, Leaf storm / knock / synthesis / glare puts in a lot of work. Its basically the only cudgel switchin which also outspeeds it afterwards which is honestly a really valueable trait. It's also got that oger like trait of outspeeding most things and being able to take a hit from most of the things that outspeed it, albeit not to the same degree. Glare also means nothing is really going to be setting up on it afterwards

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Thoughts on and on the current meta? I think that they have some important strengths but they are kind of niche overall

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

I honestly like many of the traits that brings to the table, such as being a pokemon that can check both , some variants of like Tera Flying or 3 attacks with Ice Spinner and with Will O Wisp, having Pain Split for walls like or , immunity to Spikes and TSpikes so it's harder to pressure with hazards and a powerful Volt Switch that can pressure pokemon such as or My main problem with this pokemon is that your physical pivot doesn't answer unless you tera, and it's defensive stats are starting to feel insufficient for a metagame as powerful as SVOU is. It doesn't help either that you give a free switch to unless you Volt Switch

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ground / Fire
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Tera Blast
- Glare
- Dragon Pulse / Substitute

Althought the competition for an offensive Grass type Is fierce, is an interesting choice because it has a lot of nice qualities, like Glare to cripple switchins like or and being a more offensive check with Contrary Leaf Storm. SubGlare is devilish on many matchups and Contrary also provides a Sticky Web anti cheese option. Basically my problem with this mon is that while it's not frail also it's not as bulky as it needs to be, and this can be a problem without Synthesis, and it has a notable 4MSS it wants Leaf Storm, Glare, Sub, Dragon Pulse, Tera Blast Fire and Ground, otherwise it will be always walled by something. If you don't have Dragon Pulse then turns you into setup fodder, if you don't have Tera Ground Blast good luck breaking through and without Tera Blast Fire walls you and it has the most free U-Turn ever

I think these two are pretty solid, I ran a sand with washtom before and it's an effective pivot with a difficult to block volt switch, considering that no ground will take pump (not considering lu; you wisp this guy for days)
Its kind of frail compared to other pivots tho. However i do think it's OU viable yea
Washtom is also probably one of if not the best tusk check in the game as only a booster cc tusk really threatens it

Serp seems fun too, but I've yet to build around it

 

[UltraSword]

What are your hot takes this generation?

Mine is that CM Raging Bolt is not that great as people seem to think. It needs tera to not instantly crumble against every Ground type, and even with tera it takes so much damage from something like Tusk Headlong Rush that it becomes easy target for a priority user like Scizor or Dragonite. And if the opponent has a Fairy type with Encore like Tinkaton or Iron Valiant and you get one prediction right with Dragon Pulse basically your sweeper is worthless. The best strenght that i can see to this set is that it pairs well with Kingambit offensively since it can lure in Great Tusk, but most teams have usually more than one way of dealing with Gambit, like burns from Heatran, Moltres or Cinderace, Lando, Multiscale Dragonite or a very niche and uncommon pokemon named Zamazenta

Kyurem should be banned, partly because it limits a lot the special pivots that you can viably run and it forces a lot of constraint on the teambuilder to find consistent ways of handling it, specially building a consistent balance team feels almost impossible with Don Freeze-Dry rolling around OU. Also almost all of your options to handle Kyurem defensively (Glowking, Gholdengo, Iron Crown) leave you really vulnerable to Ghost and Dark types, except Tyranitar which is hard to fit into teams and if Kyurem really wants it can use Body Press on AV sets or Focus Blast on Specs, and SpD Moltres which doesn't take well Specs at all

Also it's not that hot but NP Pecharunt is underrated asf, this thing has like 2 checks in OU being Kingambit and Ting-Lu, and Clodsire that is in UU. The only real disadvantage is that you lose some defensive utility by the virtue of being OHKOed by a +2 Tera Water Ivy Cudgel from Wellspring, but if you can afford another way of dealing with Wellspring like Dragonite or Zama, NP Pecha becomes one of the most terrifying things you can see

My hot take is that Clefable is not very good. I don't think it is the worst pokemon in OU (tho I would consider it bottom 5) but it has a lot of problems. It is incredibly passive, it gets overwhelmed too easily (unless it is unaware but even then), moonlight is a flawed move especially with Ttar becoming popular (I know some people have been trying wish but my issue with that is it forces you to run protect), and Gholdengo is an incredibly good answer to it. Clefable still has a place on bulkier teams (especially in stall), but it does not feel like the same amazing wall it was in gen 6-8 (and 4 but that is not the point).

I don't know why are people arguing about what is the worst ground type. They all fit different roles on different team styles and are great in those roles.



Lando is great on offense and BO, which are the best team archetypes this gen. I also agree with this point raised in the post above - it and Gliscor fit completely different roles. Lando's role is to get deny hazards against slower leads, get rocks and then spam U-turn (or EQ if you have eliminated the opponents flying types/leviate mons.) It isn't supposed to last long - helmet + intimidate means that most Dnites that don't run Ice Spinner are going to be forced out because Lando denies them attack boosts and threatens to break multiscale with u-turn (attacking it also breaks multiscale if helmet and if their best move against it is Espeed, which is not that unusual - quite a lot of greedy DD/EQ/Espeed/Roost Dnites these days.) Intimidate + helmet annoys a lot of setup sweepers late game, this is a mon that gives utility to its team even as a sac. It has the defensive typing of Gliscor + the best bulk of the bunch with intimidate, uninvested Lando hits harder than max attack treads. It also has its special sets, but I am not as much of a fan of those with so many random AV mons running around atm. Lando is also the best speed control as a scarfer of the lot because of U-turn + its speed tier.

All of them are good on teams that appreciate them, Treads is a great check to Bolt for teams which are weak to it. I saw an OST replay (I think Vert vs clean) recently where a booster attack treads did ~40 to +1 Zama, which was pretty crazy as well, I think this mon has a lot of options. Gliscor has insane longevity and a great typing (but it has its own drawbacks, utility scor is primarily a balance or stall mon, SD is balance/offense.) SD gliscor is not an alternative as an offensive mon to Lando, their profiles are completely different - it is a stall and balance breaker. Tusk, like lando, is best on BO and offense, it is better on teams with stuff like Kyurem or boots less Nite that need the removal, is also a bit better into Gambit, and with booster attack can punch holes in your opponents team mid game, especially if it gets a spin off and outspeeds almost everything without a scarf.

When it comes to the ground types that are actually worse than these guys - what do people think about mold breaker drill's niche as a special defensive treads alternative? It is way stronger, has similar special bulk, and gets rocks up consistently against hatterene + ignores Nite multiscale. Obviously, this is not a good tradeoff in most cases, treads is more useful most of the time because its defense is so much better, notably giving it a chance to live +2 kingambit sucker punch in the late game and live all kinds of other stuff with tera ghost. Are there are any teams that could benefit from this?

I think this take is fair. All of the ground types have their own uses and Lando T is still definitely good. I just think it is the worst of the ones ranked OU because it has the least role compression.

just because something has role compression, doesn't make it the better mon. iron treads is slop and a copium pick for teams whos weak to raging bolt. saying Lando has "less role compression" when it's literally a ground immune, electric immune, stealth rock setter, and pivot all at once while the only advantage iron treads has is that its better into raging bolt and immune to maliginant chain, not optimal for honest argument.

Aside from pivoting, all the ground types in OU can also do those things. Considering Pecharunt and Raging Bolt are both very real threats these are both great reasons to use Iron Treads over other ground types. While I do agree that role compression doesn't always make a mon better than another with less, it is how a pokemon executes those roles that matter and Iron Treads does all of these things very well.

you're undermining intimidate like it's something minor and unimportant, when it's actually a major factor. you also forgot to mention Lando-T being a ground immune. Lando-T and Great tusk don't even play the same role in the first place.

Intimidate is very important I agree. It is probably the biggest reason Lando T is still viable. However, imo it isn't a big enough factor to make Lando T better than other ground types. Lando T and Great Tusk do not play the same role but Great Tusk's role on offense is usually much more desired.

For starters, why is Lando-t in the convos of hazard removal when it's not even it's role?

Because that is what makes Great Tusk and Iron Treads fit more on their teams than Lando T. Hazard removal is incredibly important and Lando T not having it automatically makes it less desirable on teams that don't want a defogger like Corviknight or G-Weezing.

-Citing Kyurem in a treads propaganda post when treads is a steel type that doesn't even resist ice beam and can't hit kyurem back for any damage unless it runs iron head(which barely anyone runs), not optimal for argument. don't get me wrong, ground steel is a good typing but the kyurem point is super wack.

My point wasn't that Treads could beat Kyurem. Being faster than Kyurem is good because it gets the spin off where Great Tusk can't in an emergency situation. Being neutral to ice beam is great for a ground type when all the others in OU (except Ting-Lu) get OHKOed without tera.

This argument was about Lando-T somehow being worst than iron treads and we somehow ended up comparing it to great tusk, who was not involved at all as its obviously the premier ground of OU.

We are comparing it to all ground types in OU. Obviously, we have to explain what makes Lando T worse than these other grounds on specific teams.

Prim though? yeah it has some really deep flaws. its usually barely hanging on above the 4.52% cutoff for a reason. youd think prim would really love the meta since it trades so much, but balance slap glowking or av alo on everything, and offensive teams carry wellspring or smth that naturally outspeed and power through. av isnt bad per say but it gets overwhelmed very easily and barely lives a 1v1 with some special attackers like kyu and bolt. i rarely see cm at all and only the bulky one i really like. even then it takes forever to set up.

I don't think it is the worst, but I can see why you say this. Whenever I try to use AV Primarina (still the best set imo) it doesn't do much.

Thoughts on and on the current meta?

I don't have strong opinions on either of them (especially since I haven't really used either in a long time), but glare is obviously great in Serperior's case and I kind of wish Rotom Wash was used more in a gen where the premier spinner isn't Excadrill.

 

[Bold School]

Bored of Talking about tiering action because obviously nothing stands out as "broken" or "unbeatable". although I see we were discussing who the worst OU mon is and I have seen some absolute horrendus takes

The worst OU mon is obviously Dondozo. lacks splashable outside of stall and certain fat balance teams. HO dozo is fake. Dondozo is not even mandatory on stall as we have seen developments of foul play usage on mons like mandibuzz, pecharunt, etc for example. The real glue to stall is gliscor+regen mon(mola/pex)+blissey/clodsire, not dozo.

Honourable Mention: Gweezing. Broken ability, but very lame mon. maybe If I see some heat like offensive gweez with overheat I will change my mind, but to me its nothing but a defog and status spam defensive bot with no reliable recovery. tspikes is also broken too but still, lame pokemon. last mon I would ever look at to put on my team.

Iron crown disrespect is so lame. obviously its a fringe but but I see a lot of narrow minded POVs about iron crown. if you actually utilize it as an attacker instead of a kyurem check bot with AV you will actually value out of it. speed booster calm mind, very threatening set, specs is still scary if you're not careful, still forces a decent amount of chip. maybe next time explore its good sets instead of using slop like AV iron crown to pretend you have a good kyurem check in the builder.

Iron Moth may feel mid, but it has decent set variety. even though speed booster moth may feel mid, a well positioned one can effeciently clean teams. There is also other decent sets like spatk booster, agility variants, tspikes variants, meteor beam variants, iron moth does indeed have a bag and is a decent edition on threat spam HO teams. we are very lucky this mon doesnt have real set up moves like quiver dance or nasty plot, otherwise it will be terrorizing the meta even more.

Calling one of the Premier defensive mons in the tier the worst OU ranked mon, absolute insanity.

no its not. if it has good defensive partners (pecharunt,tusk for example), spdef moltres is free to run. if moltres has to carry the team, it runs physdef, it's not rocket science.

Citing sets specifically designed to tech for moltres to try and argue in favour of moltres being the worst OU ranked mon, not optimal for base argument.

No it's not, it's common sense.

Dozo is Dozo on stall, but its not the glue. there have been stall teams without dondozo. not optimal for base argument.

?? how does this prove anything, nonsense argument.

calling Ttar the worst mon in the tier, insanity. calling Ttar budget ting lu when it has better attacking move options and access to knock off, insanity. Ttar also checks kyurem, somethign ting lu can't do unless it burns tera. The fact that pech is the first thing that comes to you mind when thinking about how Ttar impacts the meta should disregard your argument on this. The whole appeal of Ttar is that it's a strong attacker with good coverage, good defensive profile with +1 spdef boost in sand and utility moves in knock off, roar, twave, stealth rocks, synergizes well with a lot of mons like rillaboom,zapdos,etc and can disrupt playstyles and strategies with it's ability alone. not the worst pokemon in OU.

Calling one of the premier scarf users and moonblast spammers in a meta where a lot of teams don't pack proper fairy resist the worst OU ranked mon, insanity. calling scarf enam a fraud, insanity. saying iron valiant is better most of the time, not optimal for being honest.

Calling Lando-t the worst OU ground when iron treads exist, absolute insanity.


Calling gliscor the better flying/ground, absolute insanity.


Lando-T is fine without Defog.

saying offensive teams have better options, when there's no mons that can replicate what lando-T offers to offense, insanity.

Agreeing with this horrible take and adding more nonsense on top of that, not optimal for common sense.


Common sense.

Trying to imply that Latias is superior to enamorus, insanity.


Both sets are equally good and server their own purposes.

Enam isn't as frail as you're making it out be, it can live hits like Ival after taking rock damage and Oger cudgel from full for example. considering how many teams lack proper fairy resist its pretty easy for scarf enam to clean late game.

Saying a mon that resist gambit sucker punch and rillaboom grassy glide is easily revenge killed by priority, insanity.

again, idk how a mon that resist the most common priority users is vulnerable to priority.

Calling the only viable mon with the sandstorm ability outclassed, absolute nonsense.


doesn't mean much when you're bulky enough to take hits and trade with mons. also has a lot of important resistances like flying, ghost, and fire.

Calling a glue piece on bootspam and hazard stack teams the single worst ranked OU mon, bad opinion.


First of all, it can win games by itself. 2 winning games "by yourself" shouldn't be a criteria in the first place.

Trying to include rillaboom in this argument, absolute insanity

What crawled up your rear end and died? For some reason, insanity seems to be your favorite word. Are you ok? Do you need help? I'm genuinely asking because it looks like it could be a cry for help.

As for the arguments, I'm not going to break most of them down one by one when most what what you said amounts to, "Nah-ah. Insanity!" Make real arguments, please.

What you need to know is that I don't think any mon currently rated OU is bad per say. Just outclassed. I'm pretty sure I said as much, but either way, Rocks weak Enam is outclassed by the faster double threat Valiant, which also double resists Sucker Punch with better bulk from base 90 def. I said Scarf wasn't good because it isn't fast or particularly hard hitting for gen 9 standards, save for Tera Hog TB with the right timing and conditions. This doesn't mean the set can't be used, but it is niche as heck. Specs seems to give more cores issues as far as switching in. It's kind of like how Moth is better with BE Special Attack than Speed. Kind of. But at least Moth hits 110 base speed.

And yeah, Enam's paper defenses of 74 base HP and 70 defense take chunks from nearly any physical attack. I don't know why you are touting Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch as if they are the only priority in the tier. You have moves like E-speed, Thunderclap, and Shadow Sneak. Even the rare Weavile Ice Shard and Scizor Bullet Punch, which used to be more common. Heck, Jolly Ceruledge Shadow Sneak at +2 is a guarenteed 1HKO with Tera Ghost or without Tera if Rocks are up. That's an unresisted hit at 40 BP.

Furthermore, your talk about Enam resisting SP and GG is highly flawed. At +2 with no allies fainted, An Adamant Black Glasses Gambit will do 95.8 - 112.8% to Scarf Enam. Choice Band Rillaboom is going 58.4 - 68.8% to Enam with Grassy Glide, which is a lot for a resisted hit. And you don't need that much chip for other priority moves to KO, either. Enam takes a lot of chip, too, since it hates Rocks and its defenses are so poor. If you are relying on it to live priority, that isn't a great spot to be at most of the time.

As for Lando-T, yeah, it's fine without Defog. Just fine. Not anything more than that. It used to be the best Ground type and the king of role compression, which is part of why it was on everyone's teams in past gens. Now that's Tusk and even Treads has more role compression. We have way more good Ground options in gen 9 OU, lowering the niches where Lando-T is the best option after its lowkey nerfs. Tusk is the best role compression Ground while Ting-Lu is the best super fat Ground.

On the slower, bulkier end of teams, you have Gliscor with better sustain and more hazards. Spikes are especially sticky this gen, so it's always good to have that option. But Gliscor can be used even on offense, so it fits on more archetypes going from Stall to some offense teams. You could even run U-turn on it if you really wanted to use it as a pivot, although I would agree Lando-T fills the U-turn pivot niche a bit better. So don't jump ugly on me for simpy saying it's an option.

And on the faster, more Offense/HO side you see much more Treads since it has great tools for that. Treads actually has a lot more set diversity than this, but it is often outclassed by Tusk for those types of sets. Although, there is a little bit more there. The Steel typing is also pretty good in most cases. I do think it is better than Lando since, in addition to having both Rocks and hazard clear, Booster Energy allows you more options. Lando-T's old school way of using Scarf/Band in a lot of sets that could lead is generally outclassed by the BE mons who can switch up moves to set hazards and then not be forced out by choice lock.

Lando-T is best on specific team comps that trend more towards offense. It often plays like almost a slow motion sac mon, allowing you to generally be able to bring it in and pivot several times before it goes down. It needs fast paced teams to be worth it over the sustain of Gliscor or the insane bulk of Ting-Lu. But not too fast or you probably want Treads. Again, Lando-T is not bad. It's just that more teams have better Ground options than not this gen.

Raging Bolt is also an underrated problem for T, with mons like Gliscor, Treads, and Lu all being better switches into it. If you are a Ground type, and you risk getting destroyed by the premier Electric type in the tier on switch in, that's not the best. Tusk is also at risk of this, but it's also just the best overall Ground type.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Raging Bolt is also an underrated problem for T, with mons like Gliscor, Treads, and Lu all being better switches into it. If you are a Ground type, and you risk getting destroyed by the premier Electric type in the tier on switch in, that's not the best. Tusk is also at risk of this, but it's also just the best overall Ground type.

Super agree with everything you said, just want to add to the last part;
Earth power Lando can't really threaten Raging bolt anyways, and in my opinion EP is easily the better set since it can hit tusk harder, and lets it always 1v1 iron press zamazenta.

Lando is in no means bad it's js not as good as other grounds

 

[Eviolite Bisharp]

What crawled up your rear end and died? For some reason, insanity seems to be your favorite word. Are you ok? Do you need help? I'm genuinely asking because it looks like it could be a cry for help.

As for the arguments, I'm not going to break most of them down one by one when most what what you said amounts to, "Nah-ah. Insanity!" Make real arguments, please.

What you need to know is that I don't think any mon currently rated OU is bad per say. Just outclassed. I'm pretty sure I said as much, but either way, Rocks weak Enam is outclassed by the faster double threat Valiant, which also double resists Sucker Punch with better bulk from base 90 def. I said Scarf wasn't good because it isn't fast or particularly hard hitting for gen 9 standards, save for Tera Hog TB with the right timing and conditions. This doesn't mean the set can't be used, but it is niche as heck. Specs seems to give more cores issues as far as switching in. It's kind of like how Moth is better with BE Special Attack than Speed. Kind of. But at least Moth hits 110 base speed.

And yeah, Enam's paper defenses of 74 base HP and 70 defense take chunks from nearly any physical attack. I don't know why you are touting Grassy Glide and Sucker Punch as if they are the only priority in the tier. You have moves like E-speed, Thunderclap, and Shadow Sneak. Even the rare Weavile Ice Shard and Scizor Bullet Punch, which used to be more common. Heck, Jolly Ceruledge Shadow Sneak at +2 is a guarenteed 1HKO with Tera Ghost or without Tera if Rocks are up. That's an unresisted hit at 40 BP.

Furthermore, your talk about Enam resisting SP and GG is highly flawed. At +2 with no allies fainted, An Adamant Black Glasses Gambit will do 95.8 - 112.8% to Scarf Enam. Choice Band Rillaboom is going 58.4 - 68.8% to Enam with Grassy Glide, which is a lot for a resisted hit. And you don't need that much chip for other priority moves to KO, either. Enam takes a lot of chip, too, since it hates Rocks and its defenses are so poor. If you are relying on it to live priority, that isn't a great spot to be at most of the time.

As for Lando-T, yeah, it's fine without Defog. Just fine. Not anything more than that. It used to be the best Ground type and the king of role compression, which is part of why it was on everyone's teams in past gens. Now that's Tusk and even Treads has more role compression. We have way more good Ground options in gen 9 OU, lowering the niches where Lando-T is the best option after its lowkey nerfs. Tusk is the best role compression Ground while Ting-Lu is the best super fat Ground.

On the slower, bulkier end of teams, you have Gliscor with better sustain and more hazards. Spikes are especially sticky this gen, so it's always good to have that option. But Gliscor can be used even on offense, so it fits on more archetypes going from Stall to some offense teams. You could even run U-turn on it if you really wanted to use it as a pivot, although I would agree Lando-T fills the U-turn pivot niche a bit better. So don't jump ugly on me for simpy saying it's an option.

And on the faster, more Offense/HO side you see much more Treads since it has great tools for that. Treads actually has a lot more set diversity than this, but it is often outclassed by Tusk for those types of sets. Although, there is a little bit more there. The Steel typing is also pretty good in most cases. I do think it is better than Lando since, in addition to having both Rocks and hazard clear, Booster Energy allows you more options. Lando-T's old school way of using Scarf/Band in a lot of sets that could lead is generally outclassed by the BE mons who can switch up moves to set hazards and then not be forced out by choice lock.

Lando-T is best on specific team comps that trend more towards offense. It often plays like almost a slow motion sac mon, allowing you to generally be able to bring it in and pivot several times before it goes down. It needs fast paced teams to be worth it over the sustain of Gliscor or the insane bulk of Ting-Lu. But not too fast or you probably want Treads. Again, Lando-T is not bad. It's just that more teams have better Ground options than not this gen.

Raging Bolt is also an underrated problem for T, with mons like Gliscor, Treads, and Lu all being better switches into it. If you are a Ground type, and you risk getting destroyed by the premier Electric type in the tier on switch in, that's not the best. Tusk is also at risk of this, but it's also just the best overall Ground type.

Fr i agree on everything what you said, althought the Black Glasses Gambit is a very rare set nowadays. Lando has been suffering a lot because of the lack of support options and longevity. I think it's slightly better than Treads because of Intimidate, but overall it's kind of lacking on tools

I also have to admit that i'm not a great fan of using Ting-Lu, not because it's a bad pokemon, at all, but every time i use it i feel like lacking the option of hazard removal is so so bad for the kind of teams i build that i almost always go with the Donphans.

And i think that U-Turn is a very underrated choice on Gliscor, thanks for bringing it to the table

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Tried serp for a few games until my wifi gave way, using this
https://pokepast.es/164cc5b58b230fa3

What I've noticed is knock serp is actually an amazing knocker, most absorbers besides corv would not want to switch in on it, so it can easily force knock on mons like moltres or glowking.
This team is sort of a wip but it probably has some potential

 

[UltraSword]

Tried serp for a few games until my wifi gave way

That wasn't your wifi. The server seems to be down for everyone rn. I could be wrong though and I would like to know if there is someone that isn't having that problem.

I also have to admit that i'm not a great fan of using Ting-Lu, not because it's a bad pokemon, at all, but every time i use it i feel like lacking the option of hazard removal is so so bad for the kind of teams i build that i almost always go with the Donphans.

While I understand why it was briefly S and considered the best ground type, I think Great Tusk is overall slightly better for this reason. Ting Lu is sometimes too passive where Great Tusk is pretty much never passive in comparison.

 

[Magcargo]

Thoughts on and on the current meta? I think that they have some important strengths but they are kind of niche overall

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

I honestly like many of the traits that brings to the table, such as being a pokemon that can check both , some variants of like Tera Flying or 3 attacks with Ice Spinner and with Will O Wisp, having Pain Split for walls like or , immunity to Spikes and TSpikes so it's harder to pressure with hazards and a powerful Volt Switch that can pressure pokemon such as or My main problem with this pokemon is that your physical pivot doesn't answer unless you tera, and it's defensive stats are starting to feel insufficient for a metagame as powerful as SVOU is. It doesn't help either that you give a free switch to unless you Volt Switch

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ground / Fire
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Tera Blast
- Glare
- Dragon Pulse / Substitute

Althought the competition for an offensive Grass type Is fierce, is an interesting choice because it has a lot of nice qualities, like Glare to cripple switchins like or and being a more offensive check with Contrary Leaf Storm. SubGlare is devilish on many matchups and Contrary also provides a Sticky Web anti cheese option. Basically my problem with this mon is that while it's not frail also it's not as bulky as it needs to be, and this can be a problem without Synthesis, and it has a notable 4MSS it wants Leaf Storm, Glare, Sub, Dragon Pulse, Tera Blast Fire and Ground, otherwise it will be always walled by something. If you don't have Dragon Pulse then turns you into setup fodder, if you don't have Tera Ground Blast good luck breaking through and without Tera Blast Fire walls you and it has the most free U-Turn ever

I built a team with these guys a while back (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/serperior-rotom-w-skeledirge-hazard-spam-balance-top-50-peak-1930.3764225/) and they were pretty good. Ctc also made a really good team with them, using Tink / Deo-S over Ghold / Weavile.

 

[40kultra]

Okay, so unfortunately some people don't seem to get it.

If spdef moltres is a priviledge, then that isn't really good

I'm confused on what the start of this sentence is suppose to mean

considering the fact that spdef is the main set that can do a very important attribute of molt (checking kyurem).

citing checking kyurem as a main attribute of moltres when it only checks 2/5 of existing kyurem sets with spdef, absolute insanity.

Also molt checks both AV and subtect kyurem, which AV is an extremely popular set.

-AV kyurem mentioned, fair enough. good set.
-Honourable mention to sub-flash cannon tera steel Kyurem which moltres can also check with spdef, it's actually 3/6 of all kyurem sets spdef moltres can check consistently.
-still, none of these sets are super broken or hard to deal with, especially subtect kyurem which is currently the worst kyurem set right now.

Physically defensive molt also I wouldn't consider a premier physical defense check since so many things can just easily nuke it with not much trouble (as I have outlined in other posts).

-Half the sets you mentioned are niche sets you don't see on ladder like 80% of the time. tera fire gambit is like the least popular gambit tera type right now. stone edge tusk & dnite are also uncommon. tbolt val less uncommon compared to stone edge dnite but still not the most popular. obviously tera fire roar zama is standard so not included in this.

-If moltres was so easy to break past without trouble, we wouldn't be seeing tera fire, lum berry and rock coverage used as often, so this point is absolutely insane.

Both of those are not used just for moltres. Stedge dnite and tusk help them not proc static on zapdos while also having stronger hits on both Corv and Torn-t as well. These moves would not be used nearly as much if there only use was hitting molt.

-mainly it's used for moltres, dodging contact from zapdos static is also nice.
-citing corv and torn as main reasons to run stone edge on dnite/tusk, absolute nonsense.
-Close combat tusk is more optimal to hit corviknight, as it 2hkos with rocks up, rather than stone edge which doesn't even hit corviknight hard at all and has 50% accuracy. unless you're thinking about head smash which is a 3hko at best(not counting stat changes)
-stone edge does hit torn harder, however Torn already gets hit hard by ice spinner on non stone edge variants, so it's not a major reason why people run rock coverage.
-These rock moves would see way less usage if moltres didn't exist

Both of those are not used just for moltres. Stedge dnite and tusk help them not proc static on zapdos while also having stronger hits on both Corv and Torn-t as well. These moves would not be used nearly as much if there only use was hitting molt. People run tera fire because not only is it a great defensive typing to help check fairy types like enam and val while also taking on fire type attackers like cinder and heatran, but also it makes sure the other wisp users in cinder and pult are setup fodder for these users. This is why i did not list stuff like rock slide kyurem, those are examples of moves used just to tech moltres.

-I don't remember saying tera fire only has one purpose. my point on tera fire is that it's mainly used by physical attackers to avoid burns in which moltres is the most common burn spreader in the tier that happens to wall most physical attackers who use tera fire, without the tera fire. resisting fairies and moonblasts are also a reason but it's not as main of a reason as avoiding burns. if fairies were the main reason we might aswell use tera stell or tera poison instead.
-Heatran is a minor reason.
-So is hex pult, hex pult isn't as common nowadays.
-Cinderace, actually a major reason, fair enough.
-Not mentioning mickey sets like rock slide kyurem, optimal for saving argument.

Saying "this is not optimal for a good take" adds nothing to the arguement. It just makes people more annoyed.

I clearly explain how your point is not optimal for your argument

I am comparing your example of "dozo is not glue on stall" and you then citing teams running stall without dozo. Because the other glue mon, blissey, has been dropped on stall as well. See the whitequeen stall for an example of a blisseyless stall. But the reason why like, 90% of stall teams have blissey and dozo is because they check a large swathe of the metagame.

Again, this is you misquoting me again, this is missing some context.

The worst OU mon is obviously Dondozo. lacks splashable outside of stall and certain fat balance teams. HO dozo is fake. Dondozo is not even mandatory on stall as we have seen developments of foul play usage on mons like mandibuzz, pecharunt, etc for example. The real glue to stall is gliscor+regen mon(mola/pex)+blissey/clodsire, not dozo.

Notice how here, I said the glue to stall is gliscor+regen mon+Blissey/Clodsire, not just Blissey. obviously there has been stall teams without blissey because clodsire is an equally as good replacement. If you're running clodsire, you can run stall without blissey but if you're running stall without clodsire, you need blissey. you need at least one of the two for a stable stall team. the rest of the three slots are up to you but those 3 I mentioned are the pillars of a stable stall team.

LOL. As the creator of that RMT, this is so not true in the slightest. I created that team a while before OLT even started.

-Team only became relevant because of olt run and RMT

I've had people still use it in todays meta and would you guess, it works. Dozo on HO is used primarily because it can be an insanely great endgame mon that can also stop opposing setup sweepers in its tracks, allowing teammates to focus more on the bulkier teams that dozo may struggle with.

-I been laddering consistently in the 1800s-1900s for the past few months and have not seen a single HO dozo team since the start of this year, and only seen it once or twice since the end of OLT. if HO dozo was real I would actually be seeing it a fair amount rather than once in a while.

it the most used pokemon on HO? No. But it can work and chalking it up to "MU fishing" is just funny.

Because it's literally a MU fish. Dozo struggles to pick what it wants to lose to. it's a sitting duck easily crippled by Hazards, knock off, Encore, Trick, Taunt, etc, and any team with a competent utility mon and wallbreaker can easily go through dondozo. tera dark makes dozo prone to fairy moves like moonblast and fighting moves like close combats and low kicks. even pokemon Spdef tera dark dondozo is supposed to 1v1 like gholdengo & raging bolt can still threaten 2hkos on dozo with strong stabs like metal coat make it rains and draco meteors which dozo can't ingore unfortunately since unaware doesn't ignore Spatk drops. it gets grim especially if lefties are knocked off.

is this u bro?

Hi Ghoulish, yes that's me.
-I don't ladder on that alt anymore.
-Using outdated and inactive alt to try and roast my elo, optimal for banter

u ain't high enough to get farmed by me

-Mind you, you're roasting other peoples elos when you're currently sitting at 77 GXE, Shameless
-We are literally on the same amount o elo points, the only difference is that I have more Gxe and Glicko

(All love ghoulish, but this is peak shameless)

dont call a team an mu fish just cus u dont understand it.

Dozo has its uses on of stall and fat balance but it's not limited to that, 3d used tera ice resto chesto dozo in scl on a team made by lax. dozo outside of its usual structures is underexplored and it can be good on faster balances and HO.

It's literally a MU fish. the team with tera ice spdef dozo that you cited uses the common Balance core of AV torn+double removal. most mons can sneak into structure like this as it's an already solid structure. doesn't change the fact that HO dozo is fake.

for what I think is the worst ou mon I'd probably say primarina, at one point this mon was very good but that time has long since passed rn prima is in an awkward place av is still its best set but it gets chipped easily and vs bulky structures it struggles, cm has such a hard time getting setup in current meta I don't think it's good anymore.

honorable mention: iron moth when it doesn't get the fiery dance boost

Primarina is definitely on the fringe side, agreed, however I don't agree that it's the worst OU ranked pokemon. Primarina is a strong wallbreaker that can force awkward switch in situations against teams lacking Glowking and AV mola because of it's nearly unresisted stab moves(outside of toxapex and amoongus which get hit by psychic noise) AV prim is also a decent trader into a fair amount of mons like ghold,rai,val,kyu,specs pult and most importantly, owns walking wake in sun. CM sets feel awkward to use against faster paced teams, but it's still super good into fatter teams. this is not as bad of a take like the others ones although I personally disagree with it.

Insult, and ego, not optimal for argument

-Trying to copy my flow, not optimal for being original

Asking to drop a take for no reason, not optimal for argument

Because the take is terrible

You're clearly missing my point here lmao, I'm saying that you have to stack grounds if you want removal on MOST teams which isn't good alot of the time. Lando does stuff tusk can't but it's difficult to justify stacking two different grounds on teams.
Bad debate, not optimal for argument.

It's not hard to justify Lando-T and great tusk on the same team, especially if Lando is running choice scarf.

you have to stack grounds if you want removal on MOST teams

Also this is not true. Hazard removal exists outside of rapid spin. Glimmora,Hatterene,Cinderace, even gweez and corv to an extent are all usable and splashable non ground type hazard control which can be good partners for Lando-t

Obviously Great tusk Is the premier OU pokemon and is naturally going to be on most teams you see. However this does not mean that you have to stack ground types if you want removal.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

40kultra I'm NOT quoting that sorry gang too much stuff
First off:
1: Let me share your "not optimal for argument". not optimal for being nice
2: Yea as I said, more offensive teams with ace / glimm as removal appreciate lando more than others. However you don't really need lando if you're going to run other forms of removal (teams with geezing mostly do not run lando. Corv isn't good removal, it's only a secondary option mostly) Simply why it's not as good or splashable as other grounds lol
You kind of just ignored my point

Also about the bolt switchin thing neither are good for that role lmao
Be so fr
Also Glisc is spdef alot of the time, Lando is not taking it better unless it's spdef lefties which at that point why are you even using lando over gliscor

 

[40kultra]

40kultra I'm NOT quoting that sorry gang too much stuff
First off:
1: Let me share your "not optimal for argument". not optimal for being nice
2: Yea as I said, more offensive teams with ace / glimm as removal appreciate lando more than others. However you don't really need lando if you're going to run other forms of removal (teams with geezing mostly do not run lando. Corv isn't good removal, it's only a secondary option mostly) Simply why it's not as good or splashable as other grounds lol
You kind of just ignored my point

Also about the bolt switchin thing neither are good for that role lmao
Be so fr
Also Glisc is spdef alot of the time, Lando is not taking it better unless it's spdef lefties which at that point why are you even using lando over gliscor

Calm down, I posted 10 minutes ago and you responded within like 3 minutes while I was in the middle of editing, now you can easily see where I was talking to you. If you rushed I suggest you read it again.

1. I don't know what are you on about here
2. again teams aren't adding lando on their teams for hazard removal, so I don't get what you're trying to get at here.
3. I didn't ignore you point, I pointed out that your point is horrendus, your point was that most teams have to stack grounds if they want to add lando-t because of removal, which is simply not true. again read over properly.

4. i don't really get the last 3 lines of your post unfortunately.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Calm down, I posted 10 minutes ago and you responded within like 3 minutes while I was in the middle of editing, now you can easily see where I was talking to you. If you rushed I suggest you read it again.

1. I don't know what are you on about here
2. again teams aren't adding lando on their teams for hazard removal, so I don't get what you're trying to get at here.
3. I didn't ignore you point, I pointed out that your point is horrendus, your point was that most teams have to stack grounds if they want to add lando-t because of removal, which is simply not true. again read over properly.

4. i don't really get the last 3 lines of your post unfortunately.

Most teams besides offense would have to stack grounds for hazard removal + landorus. Offensive structures wouldn't because they can use glim, ace, etc..
That's all I'm saying like lando has to compete for roles with other grounds who can do what it does (rock, pivot, check certain mons) but either better, have more tools or are more splashable
Not saying lando is bad or anything it's just not that great compared to other guys on MOST structures

Also I am calm, apologies if I came off as something else
I tend to reply fast when I'm on my phone so yea oops

 

[40kultra]

Most teams besides offense would have to stack grounds for hazard removal + landorus. Offensive structures wouldn't because they can use glim, ace, etc..
That's all I'm saying like lando has to compete for roles with other grounds who can do what it does (rock, pivot, check certain mons) but either better, have more tools or are more splashable
Not saying lando is bad or anything it's just not that great compared to other guys on MOST structures

Also I am calm, apologies if I came off as something else
I tend to reply fast when I'm on my phone so yea oops

-Again, not true. Cinderace and hatteren also fit on BO and balance teams, which Lando can fit on as well so most teams are not forced to stack grounds to accomidate Lando-T. even then Great Tusk+lando-T on the same team isn't the end of the world.

-in terms of pivoting, it's not really a competition for lando. also your definition of better hasn't been clear.

all good, I probably added way too much on my original post.