Oh yea makes sense. It does slap deo tho
I think yea. I kinda think it could possibly rise but it does make the most sense to remain b+
-
Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!
-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, kd458, Setsu, 658Greninja, FayaWizard, Heatranator, Shaymin Sky and TPP.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2025 Smog Awards!
Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1193))
- Thread starter Shaymin Sky
- Start date
A+ → S-/SPech has proved to hold the tier together by walling Dnite, Zama & Woger. it pivots with Ps and enters on any physical hit, it's able to do decent damage with Mc while also forcing others out due to toxic & confusion making anything wear down. it's bad match ups (Dengo & Gambit) can be checked with some pokemon (Ie: ting lu, great tusk, hamurott & more)
A- → AIt's unstoppable after 1 weak armor proc and it's almost impossible to wall. It's versatility also makes it somewhat hard to avoid the proc.
S → S-It's incredible don't get me wrong but it doesn't have that much to offer other than unpredictable sweeping, And to be properly S tier you need to be incredible and versatile to the meta.
A- → AIt's great support to any team thanks to grassy terrain, healing (almost) anyone and being able to make any pokemon have +1 def (grassy seed). It's also great offensively with 72bp priority, 156 bp stab with wood hammer, pivoting AND knock off. it's one of the easiest pokemon to just slap on offence (the best architype rn)
Edit 1:
A → A+nearly forgot this one, it just enters on so many pokemon it's INSANE on balance. BB lets it mess with woger while still doing decent damage to Tusk, Zama and frailer mons. U-turn let's it bring frailer mons in safely. defog is nice secondary hazard removal. all combines with the incredble typing makes it a consistent balanced pick
Edit 2
B+ → BI hate to say this but other than wogerpon & darkrai it doesn't have good matchups to any top tier.
It's mainly used to eat up Hyper offense but for that you can use a rock resist, faster, and number 1 Pokemon in the tier.
It still has a niche but it doesn't feel as good as any of the other B+ Pokemon.
Sorry my boy but you've fallen off..
A → A+Do I need to explain? People have already done it for me. It just has much utilit.
Last edited:
I super agree with this. Pech is such a great glue and I've almost never built a team without it in the past 3ish weeks. So so reliable rn.
Pech has proved to hold the tier together by walling Dnite, Zama & Woger. it pivots with Ps and enters on any physical hit, it's able to do decent damage with Mc while also forcing others out due to toxic & confusion making anything wear down. it's bad match ups (Dengo & Gambit) can be checked with some pokemon (Ie: ting lu, great tusk, hamurott & more)
This I am somewhat agree with but the point you made here doesn't have any logic. Boots ledge would be obvious and a lot easier to deal with as ledge is only really a threat when it has the weak armor boost.
It's unstoppable after 1 weak armor proc and it's almost impossible to wall. It's versatility make it hard to avoid the proc, you think it's sash so it won't switch on Sr? it's hdb and takes the hit and sweeps ya
Even so, there are a lot of common ways to deal w/this guy, dashed or not. Just get up rocks and have a decent special attacker / lando or Garg.
Dnite isn't only a sweeper tho. It's pretty good as a check to extremely common and major threats like woger. Multiscale also let's it check almost anything at full HP.
It's incredible don't get me wrong but it doesn't have that much to offer other than unpredictable sweeping, And to be properly S tier you need to be incredible and versatile to the meta.
Giga disagree. Rilla has terrain, sure, which nobody is denying is great. But it feels really unreliable. If the opp has molt or zap, two very good and common mons right now, it's almost entirely useless outside of its ability. Sure, it can knock them, but it can easily be paraed or burned. It's also checked by alot in the tier as grass isn't really the strongest or most reliable stab. Stuff it would want to revenge kill will most likely resist it's hit and ko it back
It's incredible support to any team thanks to grassy terrain, healing (almost) anyone and being able to make any pokemon have +1 def (grassy seed). It's also incredible offensively with 72bp priority, 156 bp stab with wood hammer, pivoting AND knock off. it's one of the easiest pokemon to just slap on offence (the best architype rn)
Not only this, but it's kind of a fake woger check.
This all being said rilla isn't bad, it's just insane to suggest moving up a mon two tiers that's honestly very flawed
Yea agreed, corv is def rly good rnEdit 1:
nearly forgot this one, it just enters on so many pokemon it's INSANE on balance. BB lets it mess with woger while still doing decent damage to Tusk, Zama and frailer mons. U-turn let's it bring frailer mons in safely. defog is nice secondary hazard removal. all combines with the incredble typing makes it a consistent balanced pick
Not sure if it should move up a tier necessarily but it's good and I can see why you'd do that
C+ -> B
C+ -> B
C -> BTap in to the rmt for more indepth explanation, but I think rain in general is very underrated right now. Barra and Overqwil work very well in tandem, and you can easily supplement them with other abuser like thunder/wball Raging Bolt to create extremely threatening offensive cores that are very hard to deal with for both HO teams due to the speed from swift swim and for fatter teams due to the raw power these two fishes possess.
Last edited:
A+ → S-/SPech has proved to hold the tier together by walling Dnite, Zama & Woger. it pivots with Parting shot and enters on any physical hit, it's able to do decent damage with Malignant Chain while also forcing others out due to toxic & confusion making anything wear down. it's bad match ups (Dengo & Gambit) can be checked with some pokemon (Ie: ting lu, great tusk, hamurott & more)
A- → AIt's unstoppable after 1 weak armor proc and it's almost impossible to wall. It's versatility also makes it somewhat hard to avoid the proc.
S → S-It's incredible don't get me wrong but it doesn't have that much to offer other than unpredictable sweeping, And to be properly S tier you need to be incredible and versatile to the meta.
A- → AIt's great support to any team thanks to grassy terrain, healing (almost) anyone and being able to make any pokemon have +1 def (grassy seed). It's also great offensively with 72bp priority, 156 bp stab with wood hammer, pivoting AND knock off. it's one of the easiest pokemon to just slap on offence (the best architype rn)
A → A+nearly forgot this one, it just enters on so many pokemon it's INSANE on balance. BB lets it mess with woger while still doing decent damage to Tusk, Zama and frailer mons. U-turn let's it bring frailer mons in safely. defog is nice secondary hazard removal. all combines with the incredble typing makes it a consistent balanced pick
B+ → BI hate to say this but other than wogerpon & darkrai it doesn't have good matchups to any top tier.
It's mainly used to eat up Hyper offense but for that you can use a rock resist, faster, and number 1 Pokemon in the tier.
It still has a niche but it doesn't feel as good as any of the other B+ Pokemon.
Sorry my boy but you've fallen off..
A → A+Magic bounce + good sp.at + versatility
B+ → BIt's just not that good
B+ → A-
Last edited:
Pinkacross Is gonna get mad at this.
Moth should drop to B btw, Moth Is so fraud and Booster speed Is so weak that it's not worth using
Yeah.
But moth has good sets that people just don't use for some reason. Booster sp.at agility, scarf uturn, bulky Tspikes spreader & absorber. So I'll keep it in B+ unless the other sets prove to be bad
C- -> C+I used to be a rain detractor in SVOU but now it's gaining more and more popularity to my surprise. My argument for Iron Mugulis to rise up to C+ is basically that Jugulis gives rain a lot of consistency and should be used more often in that archetype because of the role compression it has: it gives Rain a Ground immunity + a Ghost resistance, a Wellspring/Rillaboom offensive check with Hurricane and Taunt to stop hazard stack and Dragonite from setup sweeping and powering up through the team, which is a considerable problem for rain.
So basically Jugulis viability is tied to the viability of rain because it's mediocre otherwise, but people are starting to experiment more with this archetype and with metagame develop and experimentation rain could be considered a viable archetype again
Last edited:
Petition for Polteageist to get on the VR. Shell smash + stored power = budget espathra
-> B+ RankThis mon is decentish, but becoming deadweight when it gets Knocked Off is such a debilitating drawback. Potentially threatening a burn isn't enough in this meta where reliability is a concern imo. Not helping matters is the massive taunt epicdemic that has taken over recently, which also bad for this Pokemon in addition to the Knock Off Spam since it will prevent it from recovering. This Pokemon still occupies a valuable niche in the metagame, but I feel trends are going against it.
-> A+CB basically has no switch-ins and is crazy strong for how fast it is. Things are kinda playing out how they did in gen 8, where a good chunk of the ghost switch-ins get chipped by U-Turn / hazards over the course of a match. Being a Tera Sink is a bit problematic, but this mon still has its trusty utility / Specs sets which are as amazing as ever. Another perk about this mon is that Clear Body blocks cheese effects like Intimidate / Webs / Parting Shot, giving you another avenue to play around these Pokemon, with Infiltrator also being great on Specs sets for the veil spam.
-> A+This mon has become crazy busted again. As usual, Salt Cure Counterplay is basically non-existant besides running Cloak and Clefable (which is a great mon fwiw). Cloak kinda has more applicability now than it did in earlier iterations of the metagame, with it blocking some prominent cheese secondary effects like Malignant Chain, Psychic Noise, etc, but lets be real - running it is still a massive oppurtunity cost & this mon can just beat most of these Cloak mons like Pecharunt anyways if it swaps to running Curse - which is still amazing as usual.
-> AIts difficult to stop this mon from doing its shtick and getting all the hazards setup, esp w/ new variants that are running Flip Turn to chip down mons like Gweezing. The one set with Knock Off / Ceaseless / Flip Turn is espicially difficult for bulkier builds to pin down.
Last edited:
Ok the first one was hurtful to my heart, otherwise i agree with all of these
This mon is decentish, but becoming deadweight when it gets Knocked Off is such a debilitating drawback. Potentially threatening a burn isn't enough in this meta where reliability is a concern imo. Not helping matters is the massive taunt epicdemic that has taken over recently, which also bad for this Pokemon in addition to the Knock Off Spam since it will prevent it from recoverying. This Pokemon still occupies a valuable niche in the metagame, but I feel trends are going against it.
CB basically has no switch-ins and is crazy strong for how fast it is. Things are kinda playing out how they did in gen 8, where a good chunk of the ghost switch-ins get chipped by U-Turn / hazards over the course of a match. Being a Tera Sink is a bit problematic, but this mon still has its trusty utility / Specs sets which are as amazing as ever. Another perk about this mon is that Clear Body blocks cheese effects like Intimidate / Webs / Parting Shot, giving you another avenue to play around these Pokemon, with Infiltrator also being great on Specs sets for the veil spam.
This mon has become crazy busted again. As usual, Salt Cure Counterplay is basically non-existant besides running Cloak and Clefable (which is a great mon fwiw). Cloak kinda has more applicability now than it did in earlier iterations of the metagame, with it blocking some prominent cheese secondary effects like Malignant Chain, Psychic Noise, etc, but lets be real - running it is still a massive oppurtunity cost & this mon can just beat most of these Cloak mons like Pecharunt anyways if it swaps to running Curse - which is still amazing as usual.
Its difficult to stop this mon from doing its shtick and getting all the hazards setup, esp w/ new variants that are running Flip Turn to chip down mons like Gweezing. The one set with Knock Off / Ceaseless / Flip Turn is espicially difficult for bulkier builds to pin down.
Idk why Pult dropped in the first place, it's still amazing against cheesy screens and Offense which is trending these days
Garganacl Is annoying asf to deal with and there is almost no counterplay but there are many mons that can beat it consistently on a 1v1 like Hatterene and Gliscor, and being a tera hog limits it's viability since mono rock is very mediocre as a defensive type. But yea it's pretty good
Honestly H-Samurott Is really busted, but every time i use it i feel it a little too weak, a little too slow and a little frail lol. Flip Turn Is a cool addition to it's movepool, but i think it suffers a lot because of 4MSS, since you only have 3 slots to work: it wants Knock Off, pivoting in Flip Turn, Water stab in Aqua Cutter/Razor Shell, priority in Sucker Punch/Aqua Jet and coverage in the form of Sacred Sword
will not nom corv this time because FayaWizard begged for me to not expose his favorite mon once again for the bum it is. dont worry, i have takes
from A+ to S-
I think its time for this mon to be S-, it can do almost anything
wanna stall? sub tech to pp stall and be a momentum stopper
wanna stallbreak? mixed dd to laught at donzo
wanna wallbreak? specs kills almost anything with the right predict
wanna sweep? normal dd or with tblast
wanna trade? av with dragon tail or body press for dealing with sweepers
And it's not something like meowscarada for example, where it's mediocre at everything it does, no. kyurem can do every single role to a degree of real, genuine, undeniable tournament success and meta domination. I haven't even tackled the best part, and that is the fact that spamming ice moves in hopes of getting a freeze is genuinely viable. Because 3/5 you will have earth power which fucks with any steel not named corv. and every other mon is just Ice Beam/Freeze Dry value. Worst case scenario, you get chip, best case scenario, you win the game because of a fucking freeze omg bro. And this is still miles worse than dragonite btw
from B to B+
we are in another screens viable meta, i know deo-s is the primary setter, but this one is common enough
from A to A-
I'll be the first one to admit that I was too harsh on this thing because I was being too extremist. Even so, I still think this thing is slightly overrated because torn-t has a genuine tendency of missing stuff when you need him the most. I wouldn't bitch so much about this if this wasn't the best fat balance breaker in the tier but whatever. Also, I still don't get the appeal of AV and I havent gotten a real answer beyond "answering ghold" (it doesn't). People are starting to greed and put this on teams with 1 hazard removal, which will quickly overwhelm this set into nothing.
from A- to B+
If samu-h lands ceaseless, it can produce value
if theres no weezer galar, samu-h can potentially threaten removers that may not have rocky helmet with water moves
so when zapdos and moltres are in, you can potentially knock them with knock off and potentially not have crippling status
There's chance you may be able to do something vs kyurem + rilla teams
If Gholdengo doesn't use tera fairy dazzling gleam or focus miss, samu-h can potentially check it
outclassed as a spiker by gliscor, garchomp, chesnaught, oger-w, deo-s and ting lu. outclassed as a defensive dark-type by ttar, mandibuzz, kingambit, ting lu. outclassed as a bulky water by primarina, walking wake, ogerpon-w, mola
from B+ to B
specs is super weak because ting lu is everywhere, and you really need tera to have a chance to bust it open. AV is even worse. This thing really needs wish support to do anything, but while wish support is common, super viable and a lot of other mons also require it, you get more value out of them while iron crown feels like an absolute necessity. Unless, of course, you run the stored power set, whos probably the slowest stored power cheeser of all time
from B to B-
"This mon is doing Kyle Kuzma numbers." - ninth
I genuinely have 0 idea about basketball, but what I do know is that this mon has been producing nothing but stinkers lately. This is because while being the most important mon on stall / semi stall, it's the weakest overall, because the second he has to do ANYTHING other than wall encoreless dnite or lowkickless kingambit bro crumbles real bad. Notice how I specify sets because encore dnite and low kick kingambit both can potentially own donzo. The worst part is that rest + sleep talk is just a self-fulfilling death trap; any half-decent team will exploit that. What are you gonna do? slap wish support? Sure, except mola and donzo share the same typing, aka Oger-W victims. Oh and btw, the 2 featured shitmon of this season are AV Mola (aka the set donzo doesn't want to fuck) and Zarude (Literally on that Hoopa-U tier when it comes to breaking stall)
RE:
& 
AV Mola and Zarude are the featured shitmons of this season's SPL; therefore, it's only a matter of time before anyone talks about them here, so I'll be the first one to start the debate
from A- to A-
Yep, no changes; let me explain. AV Mola has been putting up decent numbers in high-level play, no doubt about that, but not without its drawbacks. It's somehow even more passive than Corviknight, because you have to literally receive an attack to fulfill half your niche (aka counter with Mirror Coat) and sure it can
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 20 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 405-477 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
What's the problem here? Well, to do this, you have to protect mola from literally everything: status, spikes, knocks, and any sort of indirect damage will make this thing useless, because then you can't stall and bait the incoming missile coming your way. Not to mention you can just attack it from the physical side and pray it doesn't hax you with Scald. You require perfect prediction and luck to hit Mirror Coat without getting pp stalled and you also need both skill and luck to hit Body Slam on the incoming Oger-W and actually para, but the opponent also needs perfect skill and luck to not put its attacker at risk. It's awkward as hell for both sides. It has reasonable pros and cons within the margin of acceptable, but still enough that I can't put it higher. And ngl, I just love wish passing with this thing lmao
from C to C+
This is easier to explain: BU/Swords dance + Synthesis + Knock + Power whip. If you're under sun you literally just 6-0 stall because status doesn't affect you with Leaf Shield and if you're not, you just pop tera. donzo doesnt wanna fuck with you, and in the absolute worst case scenario, you literally get free knock off value forever. Fat Balance isn't getting away easily either because this mf has 105 base speed, so you can outspeed Pecharunt while maintaining a decent amount of bulk and have adamant too. The problem is, you suck versus offense giga hard because U-turn is a move. But as long as that's not in the tables, Zarude does have enough stats to ball for a bit. Unless, of course, glowking is in the match, meaning Chilly Receptions cuts into his healing and also sometimes zarude is not on sun teams so you dont even have an ability to speak off. Not gonna say this is the second coming of Torn-T / Pecharunt into the tier but a small raise seems fine. I just hope people don't overexaggerate this one
from A+ to S-I think its time for this mon to be S-, it can do almost anything
wanna stall? sub tech to pp stall and be a momentum stopper
wanna stallbreak? mixed dd to laught at donzo
wanna wallbreak? specs kills almost anything with the right predict
wanna sweep? normal dd or with tblast
wanna trade? av with dragon tail or body press for dealing with sweepers
And it's not something like meowscarada for example, where it's mediocre at everything it does, no. kyurem can do every single role to a degree of real, genuine, undeniable tournament success and meta domination. I haven't even tackled the best part, and that is the fact that spamming ice moves in hopes of getting a freeze is genuinely viable. Because 3/5 you will have earth power which fucks with any steel not named corv. and every other mon is just Ice Beam/Freeze Dry value. Worst case scenario, you get chip, best case scenario, you win the game because of a fucking freeze omg bro. And this is still miles worse than dragonite btw
from B to B+we are in another screens viable meta, i know deo-s is the primary setter, but this one is common enough
from A to A-I'll be the first one to admit that I was too harsh on this thing because I was being too extremist. Even so, I still think this thing is slightly overrated because torn-t has a genuine tendency of missing stuff when you need him the most. I wouldn't bitch so much about this if this wasn't the best fat balance breaker in the tier but whatever. Also, I still don't get the appeal of AV and I havent gotten a real answer beyond "answering ghold" (it doesn't). People are starting to greed and put this on teams with 1 hazard removal, which will quickly overwhelm this set into nothing.
from A- to B+If samu-h lands ceaseless, it can produce value
if theres no weezer galar, samu-h can potentially threaten removers that may not have rocky helmet with water moves
so when zapdos and moltres are in, you can potentially knock them with knock off and potentially not have crippling status
There's chance you may be able to do something vs kyurem + rilla teams
If Gholdengo doesn't use tera fairy dazzling gleam or focus miss, samu-h can potentially check it
outclassed as a spiker by gliscor, garchomp, chesnaught, oger-w, deo-s and ting lu. outclassed as a defensive dark-type by ttar, mandibuzz, kingambit, ting lu. outclassed as a bulky water by primarina, walking wake, ogerpon-w, mola
from B+ to Bspecs is super weak because ting lu is everywhere, and you really need tera to have a chance to bust it open. AV is even worse. This thing really needs wish support to do anything, but while wish support is common, super viable and a lot of other mons also require it, you get more value out of them while iron crown feels like an absolute necessity. Unless, of course, you run the stored power set, whos probably the slowest stored power cheeser of all time
from B to B-"This mon is doing Kyle Kuzma numbers." - ninth
I genuinely have 0 idea about basketball, but what I do know is that this mon has been producing nothing but stinkers lately. This is because while being the most important mon on stall / semi stall, it's the weakest overall, because the second he has to do ANYTHING other than wall encoreless dnite or lowkickless kingambit bro crumbles real bad. Notice how I specify sets because encore dnite and low kick kingambit both can potentially own donzo. The worst part is that rest + sleep talk is just a self-fulfilling death trap; any half-decent team will exploit that. What are you gonna do? slap wish support? Sure, except mola and donzo share the same typing, aka Oger-W victims. Oh and btw, the 2 featured shitmon of this season are AV Mola (aka the set donzo doesn't want to fuck) and Zarude (Literally on that Hoopa-U tier when it comes to breaking stall)
RE:
& AV Mola and Zarude are the featured shitmons of this season's SPL; therefore, it's only a matter of time before anyone talks about them here, so I'll be the first one to start the debate
from A- to A-Yep, no changes; let me explain. AV Mola has been putting up decent numbers in high-level play, no doubt about that, but not without its drawbacks. It's somehow even more passive than Corviknight, because you have to literally receive an attack to fulfill half your niche (aka counter with Mirror Coat) and sure it can
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 20 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 405-477 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
What's the problem here? Well, to do this, you have to protect mola from literally everything: status, spikes, knocks, and any sort of indirect damage will make this thing useless, because then you can't stall and bait the incoming missile coming your way. Not to mention you can just attack it from the physical side and pray it doesn't hax you with Scald. You require perfect prediction and luck to hit Mirror Coat without getting pp stalled and you also need both skill and luck to hit Body Slam on the incoming Oger-W and actually para, but the opponent also needs perfect skill and luck to not put its attacker at risk. It's awkward as hell for both sides. It has reasonable pros and cons within the margin of acceptable, but still enough that I can't put it higher. And ngl, I just love wish passing with this thing lmao
from C to C+This is easier to explain: BU/Swords dance + Synthesis + Knock + Power whip. If you're under sun you literally just 6-0 stall because status doesn't affect you with Leaf Shield and if you're not, you just pop tera. donzo doesnt wanna fuck with you, and in the absolute worst case scenario, you literally get free knock off value forever. Fat Balance isn't getting away easily either because this mf has 105 base speed, so you can outspeed Pecharunt while maintaining a decent amount of bulk and have adamant too. The problem is, you suck versus offense giga hard because U-turn is a move. But as long as that's not in the tables, Zarude does have enough stats to ball for a bit. Unless, of course, glowking is in the match, meaning Chilly Receptions cuts into his healing and also sometimes zarude is not on sun teams so you dont even have an ability to speak off. Not gonna say this is the second coming of Torn-T / Pecharunt into the tier but a small raise seems fine. I just hope people don't overexaggerate this one
For the AV Mola calc I realize that's the Smogon spread, but that set has adapted to using even bulkier spreads where it lives +6 Nasty Plot with room to spare for hazards. They don't need to mess around with bulking up defense when Scald is available.
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 405-477 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 405-477 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ye, it was just an example to say that AV Mola can tank these hits, but all the akwardness of mirror coat + building makes it have it's fair share of pros and cons
Okay. People are too quiet for my taste. Time for some hot takes.
B → B+ it's in a really good spot right now, u turn wellspring feels for me rarer and rarer, making it a great check that can enter and outspeed, triple axel is a great fu¢k Dnite tool
B+ → B
Sorry kix, I love you. But when your main use is a counter to the thing the number 1 Pokemon counters you're in a rough spot.
A → A+
The defensive utility it has can't be explained. Flying steel is just that good for a pivot. Being a great secondary hazard removal is a nice bonus, checking IdPress Zama is great, punishing great tusk for existing with rocky helmet, need I say more?
A → A+
Magic bounce=good. Y'all already agree so I'm going to move on
A- → A
Av mola is just incredible against anything not named wellspring. And even than you can pair it with hydraplle for double regenerator.
B+ → A-
Balance killer + ivy cudgel eater +tera abuser = good. It's really splashable (meaning easy to fit on teams) and regenerator nasty plot is excellent wall braking. Assault vest is underrated imo
A+ → S
Holds the tier together.
B → B+ it's in a really good spot right now, u turn wellspring feels for me rarer and rarer, making it a great check that can enter and outspeed, triple axel is a great fu¢k Dnite tool B+ → BSorry kix, I love you. But when your main use is a counter to the thing the number 1 Pokemon counters you're in a rough spot.
A → A+The defensive utility it has can't be explained. Flying steel is just that good for a pivot. Being a great secondary hazard removal is a nice bonus, checking IdPress Zama is great, punishing great tusk for existing with rocky helmet, need I say more?
A → A+Magic bounce=good. Y'all already agree so I'm going to move on
A- → AAv mola is just incredible against anything not named wellspring. And even than you can pair it with hydraplle for double regenerator.
B+ → A-Balance killer + ivy cudgel eater +tera abuser = good. It's really splashable (meaning easy to fit on teams) and regenerator nasty plot is excellent wall braking. Assault vest is underrated imo
A+ → SHolds the tier together.
Last edited:
Haven't spoken here in a while but I'd like to make some noms:
To B-
I understand the hate for this mon, but it's honestly not as bad as people make it out to be. I've recently been using this guy a bit on higher ladder (1800+) (do not check my rank right now I've been loading some nonsense), and I think the mon has quite a bit of potential.
SD Lorb is a very viable set as its still faster than much of the meta and gains extra breaking power. The mon is a bit tera reliant but if you manage to slow / remove their speed control it can win very quickly. It has some issues with tusk but that's not too difficult a pokemon to force chip on (you can even chip it with boulder itself)
It has a lot of diversity surprisingly, for an SD set you can go with Cc, eq, zen headbutt, tera blast and go with tera fly, fight, or ground.
Choice band also has a lot of merit. Tera Rock mighty cleave is very strong, and the coverage it has is nearly perfect with it (zen headbutt, eq, cc)
Tldr, boulder fast, strong, has good and reliable rock stab.
Feels very hit or miss in alot of games, though.
A+
Nommed her before, I'll nom her again. Elite utility mon, great to support rock-weak teammates or just more hazard weak teams, which enables stuff like leftovers/ldice Dnite, kyurem, AV Torn, etc. nuzzle is also amazing for its ability to scare certain threats. You can also bait grounds and chip them as many will go gliscor or lando on the nuzzle.
pain split is insanely good as it lets you 1v1 lu and stay around for much longer than you normally should.
AV is also probably my favorite set, it lets it check special Kyurem, darkrai, and quite a lot of other mons, still helps vs hazards and stall, and it stays around due to draining kiss being broken.
to A+
Not much to say here. Hex + Twave / Wisp is good as ever, Band is the best set imo with genuinely one switchin (Gambit, who gets worn easily via hazards and uturn chip). Specs is also great being similar in strength but not as tera reliant. It's insane speed is also very useful.
To S-
This mon is so, so, so good. It checks everything you need it to, I think I could genuinely write an essay about how much Pecharunt checks. It feels like ting-lu in this regard. Not only this, but it's also a great check to the most scary threats in the tier such as Pon, Dnite, Some val sets, IronPress Zama. It's also an excellent spin blocker, and it being faster than tusk naturally is often overlooked. Foul play sets are also extremely viable as they can even check kingambit.
to A-
Sand is amazing, knock off is amazing. Ttar is insanely bulky and also serves as a very solid check to Kyurem. It can also offensively check gambit with low kick. Ttar also checks pult and ceruledge very easily.
to A-
Scizor is mostly seen as a check to Kyurem, but it's much more than that. Bullet punch being one of the strongest and most spammable priority moves is this things claim to fame, and it's still excellent for revenge killing honestly anything.
This guy can also easily force a knock on zap / corv / moltres, and still pivot out of consistently bad mus like the rare pex with U-Turn meaning it's very hard for this mon to be a useless Pokemon in a game.
Not sure why this dropped back to UU it's a very good mon
to B+
AV is excellent for making progress with knock / noise + its very customizable coverage. It's a tad tera reliant sometimes but it's also very bulky vs any special hit and will almost always be able to trade 1v1 with the opponent. Wishpass + this is also exceptional.
It's a niche pick but I do think it's worth it on those teams for its breaking and trading potential.
to A-
Still does moltres things, but a multitude of pokemon are able to force a knockoff on it and then it becomes effectively useless unless it burns them on that exact turn which, despite it sometimes feeling like it isn't, is more in the opps favor. I find Zapdos to be the better bird.
to A-
The most I ever see this guy do is be a cheap screens / rocks merchant. Fast taunt is nice, and I'll admit the plot set is very threatening but it's role as a rocker is done better by others, it's speed control also is in alot of cases and screens are only one team style that's sort of an mu fish.
to B
I love lati so much, it's so cool, but this thing is seriously not it rn. Dracos are strong but that's about it, it has a decent speed tier but 110 isn't allat rn, and it also severely struggles into many metagame staples such as ghold, ting-lu, hatterene, and kingambit. It's also quite easy to revenge non-scarf ones.
Cm is a pretty good set imo and levitate is great for it but idk, feels outdated and outclassed by other mons.
To B-I understand the hate for this mon, but it's honestly not as bad as people make it out to be. I've recently been using this guy a bit on higher ladder (1800+) (do not check my rank right now I've been loading some nonsense), and I think the mon has quite a bit of potential.
SD Lorb is a very viable set as its still faster than much of the meta and gains extra breaking power. The mon is a bit tera reliant but if you manage to slow / remove their speed control it can win very quickly. It has some issues with tusk but that's not too difficult a pokemon to force chip on (you can even chip it with boulder itself)
It has a lot of diversity surprisingly, for an SD set you can go with Cc, eq, zen headbutt, tera blast and go with tera fly, fight, or ground.
Choice band also has a lot of merit. Tera Rock mighty cleave is very strong, and the coverage it has is nearly perfect with it (zen headbutt, eq, cc)
Tldr, boulder fast, strong, has good and reliable rock stab.
Feels very hit or miss in alot of games, though.
A+Nommed her before, I'll nom her again. Elite utility mon, great to support rock-weak teammates or just more hazard weak teams, which enables stuff like leftovers/ldice Dnite, kyurem, AV Torn, etc. nuzzle is also amazing for its ability to scare certain threats. You can also bait grounds and chip them as many will go gliscor or lando on the nuzzle.
pain split is insanely good as it lets you 1v1 lu and stay around for much longer than you normally should.
AV is also probably my favorite set, it lets it check special Kyurem, darkrai, and quite a lot of other mons, still helps vs hazards and stall, and it stays around due to draining kiss being broken.
to A+Not much to say here. Hex + Twave / Wisp is good as ever, Band is the best set imo with genuinely one switchin (Gambit, who gets worn easily via hazards and uturn chip). Specs is also great being similar in strength but not as tera reliant. It's insane speed is also very useful.
To S-This mon is so, so, so good. It checks everything you need it to, I think I could genuinely write an essay about how much Pecharunt checks. It feels like ting-lu in this regard. Not only this, but it's also a great check to the most scary threats in the tier such as Pon, Dnite, Some val sets, IronPress Zama. It's also an excellent spin blocker, and it being faster than tusk naturally is often overlooked. Foul play sets are also extremely viable as they can even check kingambit.
to A-Sand is amazing, knock off is amazing. Ttar is insanely bulky and also serves as a very solid check to Kyurem. It can also offensively check gambit with low kick. Ttar also checks pult and ceruledge very easily.
to A-Scizor is mostly seen as a check to Kyurem, but it's much more than that. Bullet punch being one of the strongest and most spammable priority moves is this things claim to fame, and it's still excellent for revenge killing honestly anything.
This guy can also easily force a knock on zap / corv / moltres, and still pivot out of consistently bad mus like the rare pex with U-Turn meaning it's very hard for this mon to be a useless Pokemon in a game.
Not sure why this dropped back to UU it's a very good mon
to B+AV is excellent for making progress with knock / noise + its very customizable coverage. It's a tad tera reliant sometimes but it's also very bulky vs any special hit and will almost always be able to trade 1v1 with the opponent. Wishpass + this is also exceptional.
It's a niche pick but I do think it's worth it on those teams for its breaking and trading potential.
to A-Still does moltres things, but a multitude of pokemon are able to force a knockoff on it and then it becomes effectively useless unless it burns them on that exact turn which, despite it sometimes feeling like it isn't, is more in the opps favor. I find Zapdos to be the better bird.
to A-The most I ever see this guy do is be a cheap screens / rocks merchant. Fast taunt is nice, and I'll admit the plot set is very threatening but it's role as a rocker is done better by others, it's speed control also is in alot of cases and screens are only one team style that's sort of an mu fish.
to BI love lati so much, it's so cool, but this thing is seriously not it rn. Dracos are strong but that's about it, it has a decent speed tier but 110 isn't allat rn, and it also severely struggles into many metagame staples such as ghold, ting-lu, hatterene, and kingambit. It's also quite easy to revenge non-scarf ones.
Cm is a pretty good set imo and levitate is great for it but idk, feels outdated and outclassed by other mons.
Last edited:
Believe me specs psycho boost is strong
The most I ever see this guy do is be a cheap screens / rocks merchant. Fast taunt is nice, and I'll admit the plot set is very threatening but it's role as a rocker is done better by others, it's speed control also is in alot of cases and screens are only one team style that's sort of an mu fish
Other than that, moltres and iron boulder. I agree.
that's what they all say
I get the reference but I'm actually much stronger than deoxys-speed. Back in my day, id ohko glowking with any of my punches.
I mean I guess but it's a prediction reliant set that can probably be used as setup fodder for gambit or whatever once the set is scouted, this also doesn't really go against my other points
it's a good breaker / good speed control but it's pretty much outdone by others for this role besides maybe speed control, and even then it's kind of unnecessary to have that much speed on your team in most cases
Is this to say you disagree or agree with those two cos if you disagree why
I disagree on those two because
A. Moltres's flame body makes knock off a bad idea in the first place, and it counters the best mon in the format's best moveset (IdPress Zama)
B. Iron boulder just always sucks, genuinely. It's never successful in the long term
But really it's personal taste.
Knock is not a guaranteed burn, and even if it does burn, you've basically lost your moltres as it'll take 50% from rocks whenever it comes in. It's not a bad mon ofc but it's feels worse than the other birds imo.
Also tera fire is a pretty common Zama tera which beats molt very easily so it being your only check is kinda bad
This is not an argument at all "bad in the long term" can apply to alot of pokemon. Take lando, or hatt. These guys don't last forever but they're top tier mons
Horrible argument
Edit: this felt mean mb
Last edited:
if I can say anything abt Iron Boulder it's that I feel like it's difficult to find an opportunity to set up a Swords Dance because of its Typing so sometimes you just kinda revenge kill something, chunk another Pokemon and then die or Tera and then later die
Yea it needs to be positioned really well to wallbreak effectively
I meant outside of the game. It always loses viability. It's proven to suck beyond any doubt. Basically you were fighting with air with that.Knock is not a guaranteed burn, and even if it does burn, you've basically lost your moltres as it'll take 50% from rocks whenever it comes in. It's not a bad mon ofc but it's feels worse than the other birds imo.
Also tera fire is a pretty common Zama tera which beats molt very easily so it being your only check is kinda bad
This is not an argument at all "bad in the long term" can apply to alot of pokemon. Take lando, or hatt. These guys don't last forever but they're top tier mons
Horrible argument
Edit: this felt mean mb
As for the first point. The burn isn't worth it because the opponent still has at the moment a Moltre while unless you're name is Clefable getting burned makes you a sitting duck if you're a physical attacker. Aka. every knock user other than clef.
It’s why Banded Boulder might lowkey be the better set. Booster Speed is extremely tempting with its speed tier, but with its kind of mid unboosted attack and trouble setting up, it’s better to be able to immediately and consistently swing with it than bank on hoping your opponent is asleep at the wheel and let’s you get Swords Dance for free on your first Boulder switchin (while simultaneously not keeping their Gambit alive in the back).