Suspect Shared Power Suspect 8 - Blue Radiance (Sturdy)

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Bobsican

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:sv/nosepass::sv/carbink:
After clear concerns from the userbase after OMCL, the council has agreed on to suspect test Sturdy!
With a past suspect test overall confirming that the userbase prefers tiering action towards problematic aspects in Harvest teams over Harvest itself, certain Sturdy users have been developing as particularly problematic, clearly to the point that the ability itself is the problem.

Even though FEAR strategies and similar are typically considered unreliable at best, especially now that Berry Juice is dexit'd, in a Shared Power context, ability stacking enables Sturdy-based users to have legitimate longevity to end games on their own and have less flaws to exploit.

Their strategy can vary quite a bit, the most prominent user (Nosepass) makes progress with Pain Split, further raising its consistency by getting back to full HP in the process, then traps and wears down the opponent with Sand Tomb, even having a spare move slot for Gravity or Smack Down to still leave a mark against Levitate teams and Flying-types. Carbink instead tries a more direct FEAR approach with Endeavor alongside Sand Tomb + Gravity or Smack Down not unlike Nosepass.

Counterplay to Sturdy users, while varied, can be rather inconsistent as it's heavily limited and determined by the exact team structure of the opponent:

- Entry hazards can force the Sturdy user out of the game by disabling such ability with the chip damage, unless Endure is revealed, which ensures that they're not inherently out of the game by them, with Nosepass in particular requiring less support as its raw 11 HP at Lv 1 means that it won't need Cheek Pouch to get fully healed, and the odds for healing are in favor of the Sturdy user, as statistically Harvest triggers 75% of the time within 2 turns, Levitate can further help on this weakness by only leaving Stealth Rock as an effective hazard, although it can be anti-synergistic if paired with Gravity.

- Ghost-types can prevent Carbink from making progress with Endeavor and PP stall it out long-term, but Carbink teams often pair it with a Scrappy or Mind's Eye user to cover this exact flaw.

- Multi-hit move users like Dragapult, Maushold, and Iron Crown can directly OHKO regardless of Sturdy by nature, but have longevity issues as the offensive team structures that fit such Pokemon tend to grant them minimal openings to enter the field, with Tera Fairy (or Carbink) also limiting this form of counterplay by blocking Scale Shot and Dragon Darts, similarly Tera Ghost is also an option to block Population Bomb.

- Item disruption with Knock Off is generally expected and also immediately countered with Sticky Hold.

- Substitute users can stop Pain Split and Sand Tomb from wearing them down, but the prevalence of anti-Substitute options in Harvest teams like Ghost-user Curse (which ignores Substitute) and phazing can render them rather inconsistent. Infiltrator support can also render this useless altogether.

- Status spreading of burns or poisoning can end the usability of the Sturdy user in general, but Purifying Salt can prevent such flaw altogether.

- Aggressive play as to prevent the opposing team from properly setting up their pool of abilities to support the Sturdy user can be valid, but this strategy is heavily matchup and momentum reliant.

While the above methods are limited as softer forms of counterplay, more reliable ways to dispatch such Pokemon exist, such as ability-ignoring options (Mold Breaker users and Sunsteel Strike), but are rather limited to Steel spam teams (Solgaleo, Excadrill, Tinkaton) and situationally in Dragon spam (Haxorus), Unnerve prevents berry consumption altogether bar in specific cases like switching out and fainting, but it's only seen on Corviknight now that Calyrex-I is banned, and it's also rather niche and an opportunity cost over Pressure for every other matchup, and attacks that do lingering extra damage like Magma Storm, Thunder Cage, and Salt Cure can similarly bypass Sturdy.

In Sturdy's defense, at the same time it can be argued that there's plenty of natural forms of counterplay that'd be viable regardless of its place in the metagame, with it also being clear that no team can properly fit all abilities that benefit Sturdy users without then being limited on teambuilding and thus actively hindering the other Pokemon of its team, and Sturdy in return does also provide a way to wall a wide variety of Pokemon as to complement defensive cores for balance and stall teams, but the question remains on whether such answers are satisfactory for a healthy and competitively diverse metagame.

Requirements:

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

- Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Shared Power before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played Shared Power before the test, full stop).

- At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.

- Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid requirements, please contact Chessking, dhelmise, Giagantic or a member of OM staff.

- If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 with B=2, with a supermajority (>=60%) of ban votes being required to ban Sturdy from Shared Power. The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1773367200:f> Good luck to all!
 
BTW, there's going to be suspect test room tournaments in the OM room (my bad for the first one, it doesn't count as it wasn't organized properly to count as such), at the following dates:

<t:1772827200:f>

<t:1772938800:f>

The top 2 players in each of these tournaments earn voting requirements, so don't miss them out if you want a fall-back option over playing the ladder.
 
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9sharedpower-2554282449

LycanrocWastaken now qualifies for voting!

Mubbery's voting qualification is voided as they used an unregistered account and logged off before clarifying their Smogon account username, at least until they can register it then contact a PS Global Moderator (@) or above in Pokemon Showdown (list here) to corroborate their identity. If you're limited to contacting by the Smogon forum, for this purpose you'd want to contact a member of Senior Staff (list here) or a PS Global Administrator (~) (list here).
 
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T'was the night before votesmas, and all through the house, not a creature was stirring... Seriously where is everyone :worrywhirl:


:regidrago: :clawitzer: :porygon-z: :dialga-origin: :giratina-origin: :dragapult:
I am going to go out on a limb and say that this is a good team. I used it for a 18-1 run. I've topped the ladder with it before, and I won with it in OMCL. But actually, the team is a complete matchup fish because it auto-loses to tera fairy Nosepass. Okay, boo hoo. My favorite team has a bad matchup. That fact alone does not mean that Nosepass is broken or overcentralizing or uncompetitive. Pick your favorite Smogon legalese term.

:trevenant: :gastrodon: :garganacl: :giratina: :nosepass: :maushold:
What does make Sturdy bad for the meta is the restrictions that it imposes on teambuilding. This team is the strongest and most widespread use of Sturdy. With strong hazard removal, Nosepass can wall every special move in the metagame. A lot of interesting ways exist to get around this limitation, but they all require checking specific boxes in a way that, in my opinion, restricts teambuilding to an unreasonable degree. The options are to bring multi hit moves, hazards plus phazing to drag Nosepass over rocks, a fast Taunt that can prevent Defog and Tidy Up, or Mold Breaker/moldy moves. Photon Geyser is real!!! When a team has some of these tools, the strength of Nosepass does make for interesting games. Finnaggann and Iknowup, the biggest Nosepass users, are two of the strongest players our community has to offer. They force me to think about how to keep hazards up in a way that is unique in SP. If we ban Sturdy, I will miss those games. But when a team does not bring the proper tools, the games are less interesting. Specially-oriented offenses are unviable because of their lack of recourse against Nosepass. Any builds that can't consistently keep rocks up are also inevitably ground down. Hazardless teams are a non-starter. The effect is to limit teambuilding in a manner that is, in my opinion, too extreme. I have thrown out many promising ideas for the sole reason that they lose to Pain Split Sturdy.

Hazardless offense being unviable solely because of this matchup is important. Hazardless teams are more viable in SP than in other metagames. Lots of great ability donors do not have Stealth Rocks or Spikes. Porygon-Z, Lilligant-H, Quaquaval, Basculegion, Giratina-O, Regidrago, the list goes on. Hazards are important for breaking down fat teams or for placing opposing pieces into KO ranges. Both tasks can be accomplished by adding another ability to the team instead. For some teams, an extra 33% or 50% of damage from one of these ability donors is going to outweigh the benefit of 12% rocks chip from a worse-fitting pokemon. In my dragon spam above, Download Porygon-Z was the last member that I added. That extra 1.5 boost is important for providing mixed offense and blowing away bulky walls with Dialga. My options were to make my team usable into Sturdy or to make it better against everything else. That choice is not unique to my dragon spam. I will be voting ban on Sturdy.
 
T'was the night before votesmas, and all through the house, not a creature was stirring... Seriously where is everyone :worrywhirl:
I have been holding out on my decision for a while now. When this came up I was 50-50 of banning sturdy. Harvest makes FEAR strategies too strong requiring specific counters on teams as stated above. Where as in other meta games FEAR is generally walled by a simple ghost type or is used to remove 1 threat and maybe cripple another.

Here in SP, sturdy pokemon can often solo multiple team archetypes, priority spam, dragon(excluding scale shot), and stall due to pain split+sand tomb. Offense in SP teams often use high damage low pp moves (cc, sunsteel strike, draco meteor, and poltergeist) to make progress with how bulky teams are with abilities like fluffy, ruin abilities, harvest, unaware, and ubers level bulk available in the tier. These are the kind of moves that sturdy prevents from making progress. Using sturdy removes the need for slotting multiple resists on a team and becomes more of does the oppenent have a move to beat sturdy, if no then sturdy mon is free switch.

With teammates like gargancal or an aroma veil user oppenents lose ways to deal with pass. Something gargancal can easily wall most multi hit moves apart from bullet seed with stitrus healing, iron defense, and tera, removing 2 major counter play options to sturdy. Pass can then deal with big single hit moves that threaten gargancal like close combat or draco meteor.

Hazards are the only way majority of teams can deal with sturdy and the only hazard that is guaranteed to work is stealth rock. Spikes usage is already low with levitate being popular but this just removes a lot of potential answers like hammerout or meowscarada spikes. Paired with bulky defoggers like giratina or a bulky rapid spinner like terapagos hazards are extremely hard to keep on the field and again the only way to beat these bulky pokemon is big damage single hit moves that sturdy pokemon eat.

Multi hit is not reliable against sturdy because in general berry teams do very well against them. As they heal half way through a multi hit moves. Each hit needs to be doing at least 20% to even make a dent which is extremely hard to achieve part from mausholds population bomb where the sheer amount of hits can overwelm a berry mon. A single kee berry or ganlon berry user devastates a multi hit pokemon lowering the damage done after a single hit and healing the worst hit in the chain due to cheek pouch.

I do enjoy trying to break sturdy teams but the amount of planning it takes in the team builder to beat them is just too much when you need to 3 pokemon to be potential answers. For this reason I am voting to ban sturdy.

I do want to note 2 things that would enable more counter play to sturdy and prevent an out right ban. First the restriction of purifying salt enabling counter play with will o wisp, and toxic. Second and imo the worst option is the restriction of sticky hold allowing for knock off and trick to be used to break the chain but still gives berry teams counter play allowing them to switch to their sticky hold user. Purifying salt imo is the main problem and foundational block that makes sturdy broken and as I previously stated with the zamazenta ban is a major reason zamazenta was so hard to deal with. I think sturdy could be free with a purifying salt restriction. Visible proof of this is curse is a main way to break sturdy with giratina or houndstone then using shadow sneak to take it out. Something like will o wisp or toxic just give us more options. Even something like para to prevent the spamming of pain split/protect also helps.
 
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Two minutes to spare!

Definitely could have done better, but I’m happy with the final result. A lot of my losses were due to either me tilting (throughout today) or trying to use this dumpster fire of a Sand team (at the start of my run). Eventually I switched over to my OMCL Week 2 team, which performed a lot better. I even ended up improving it throughout the last day. I’ll provide the final version below, if anyone is curious (click on the icons for the team)-

:porygon-z: :cinderace: :lycanroc-dusk: :comfey: :groudon: :solgaleo:

Fun fact about this team: it is a rework of my first-ever serious Shared Power team. The original was quite a bit different (it had Great Tusk and Roaring Moon on it, if I remember correctly), and while laddering I swapped out the Flutter Mane I had brought in OMCL for a Download Porygon-Z, since it supported the rest of the team far better than Flutter Mane had. Towards the end, I changed Download to Adaptability, and I am very glad I did, since I didn’t like how little it felt that I could control what boost I got from Download. This may just be a skill issue on my part, however.

I may try topping the ladder and making an RMT with this team at some point, but I’m a little burnt out with Shared Power for the time being.

Notes for anyone who wants to use this team-
  • You can probably swap out Groudon for something else (Houndstone?), but I honestly felt that Groudon was so useful in almost every single game I played that I never felt the need to drop it. It’s ridiculously bulky on the physical side, to the point where it can easily 1v1 Swords Dance Crawdaunt if Sun is up.
  • Be careful with how you use Lycanroc-Dusk. It can save your ass in so many matchups, but only if you use it correctly.
  • The Nosepass stall matchup is awful for this team, sadly, and I’m still not exactly sure how to patch that weakness up. Luckily Nosepass stall teams are relatively rare on ladder as of now (I only saw one, which I badly lost to). My best advice for breaking Nosepass is to try to burn it with Will-O-Wisp on Groudon, or if that fails, you can try to fish for a burn with Pyro Ball on Cinderace or (if you are truly desperate) Tri Attack on Porygon-Z. However, even Groudon is sketchy into Nosepass teams (since it sets the Sun up, causing Harvest to always activate). EDIT: How the fuck did I forget that Solgaleo exists?

I’ll probably be voting ban on Sturdy, although something like Maushold might be a more pressing issue. I’m going to miss the funny Level 1 Nosepass teams if Sturdy does end up getting banned, but I also despised the one time I faced it, so I’m not sure how I’ll feel in the end.
 
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