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Resource Draft League Simple Questions, Simple Answers
- Thread starter Hacker
- Start date
Hello! I'm helping run a small casual league of 20 players split into two pools with seperate docs. On the other guys doc we are noticing an issue on the match stats tab where some of the numbers are not turning green for the win differential as seen on the attached image.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZQpCChd0I1plKQcKuousrgV7QvDvJeCmaNMGdMMDlaA/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZQpCChd0I1plKQcKuousrgV7QvDvJeCmaNMGdMMDlaA/edit?usp=sharing
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Not quite sure if i get your question but if you have a copy of the doc, mons prices can be changed in the pokedex tab by finding the mon and adjusting the number in the SV column. but also your example confuses me since Skarm is 8 points in DWL so if youre looking at a different board there might be some other differences in the doc.
if you're looking at the samples 24-25 doc that one is a bit outdated and we have a new one in the works but i think it is not ready yet.
i'm talking about the given sample one yeah, that one has skarm 12 and like grimm 11 and other stuff
i know i can change the mon values manually but im asking if i can copy paste the entire list of mons and their price from the DWL board into a copy of the sample board or if i need to manually adjust each pokemon's value (since the DWL board seems to sort tera captains based on pick rate)
I am starting a SV NatDex draft league with some friends, and we have some questions and concerns about the sample draft board from this post. Before we actually draft, could someone help us understand some of the decisions?
- Some prices are very weird
- Some Ubers are allowed
- Megas and base Pokemon are listed separately
Gonna try to walk through your questions here one by one but after this If you have any further questions feel free to ask me or another staff member on the Smogon Draft Discord server.
The tier list we use is made by experienced tournament level players that play this format consistently, and the prices are based on usage and performance. As such stuff like Mega Gallade is worth 20 points for being one of the best mons in this metagame. Same goes for the other, the tier list is constantly being adjusted based on tournament results so it can be as accurate as possible. Important to note that this Draft board was built with Tera and Z-Moves both banned on all mons.
Its important to note tha Draft is its own metagame, wheter a mon is Uber, OU or NU has no impact at all on our tiering. Pokémon like Chi-Yu and GDarm like you mentioned are strong attackers but they dont do much more than that, they can feel quite one-dimensional and for that reason they end up rarely being meta relevant in Draft Metagame.
Yes they could, but with the rule of each player only being allowed to have one mega, that means that megas are tiered with opportunity cost in mind. Garchomp is generally considered better than mega Garchomp so for mega garchomp to feel worth picking when it occupies the mega slot on a team and is also item locked compared to regular garchomp means it has to be cheaper for it to be a viable pick. Same applies to most other megas, If theyre not popular meta threats such as Gallade or Diancie they tend to be cheaper on purpose to account for the huge opportunity cost of not taking a better mega.
Mega Gallade is extremely flexible in draft. It has access to three viable setup moves in Bulk Up, Swords Dance, and Agility, excellent coverage to hit almost everything super effectively, amazing STABS in close combat, low kick and drain punch, excellent speed and power letting it 'cheat' on attack investment to run heavily bulk invested sets, lots of utility moves like will-o-wisp, toxic, knock off, encore, taunt, destiny bond, magic coat, thunder wave, etc.
Great tusk offers more role compression than Landorus because it has access to rapid spin and can viable fit it, meaning that you can remove hazards without removing them from the other side as with Defog. I'd price them equally tbh but tusk over lando is very real.
Gholdengo suffers from the exact opposite as Gallade- it has very little flexibility. You're going to run make it rain/shadow ball/focus blast/recover/twave/nasty plot almost every week invariably, maybe with some coverage moves or hex thrown in. It's also slow, gets chipped down easily because of being an easy target for the ever-prevalent knock off, and is THE spinblocker your spinners want to beat. Unfortunately, most of the good spinners can beat it easily. Cyclizar gets overheat AND temper flare, Excadrill/Tusk/Treads are obvious, and Tentacruel can just knock you and pivot forever.
Chi-yu and Garm are slower than you'd imagine, often being forced to run choice scarf sets while being easily exploited by hazards unless they run boots. Garm is a special case because you can often put Protect on your ice-weak pokemon and it is immediately unable to U-turn off of them safely due to Gorilla Tactics being immediately scouted. Both also hate the prevalence of bulky waters that can fit either rocky helmet for Darm which cripples it even faster or again protect + perhaps leftovers to help gain extra free healing in between dark pulses. Plus you can always scarf your faster guys and just force a sack war, or add a resistance berry/heavy investment to lure them (especially chi-yu because it can't spam U-turn, and it also gets lured by surprise assault vests). For example, choice scarf Chi-Yu actually needs around 20% chip to kill Assault Vest darkrai reliably (it can kill back) and Darmanitian can be tricked into Icicle Crashing a yache berry latios who kills back.
Megas are listed seperately because some of them really are just worse than the base form. Garchomp absolutely adores running leftovers, sitrus, rocky helmet, resist berries, loaded dice, etc, and being completely itemless is crippling.
I'm totally a casual though, trust the guy above me's opinion more than mine :3
... and the guy below me. LOL!
sigh I'll just send mine anyways.
jscurf or Ryan&Ditto could have more to say about NatDex tiering, but I can help with a few points:
- Mega Gallade has great stats, multiple setup options (notably gaining Agility after gen 7), good coverage, and some nice tools in knock/encore/taunt/wisp/twave/toxic/hypnosis. I think it might be overpriced by 1-2 points but it deserves to be near the top
- Tusk is probably just a bit overpriced
- Gholdengo is oppressive in a lot of tiers where it's legal, but draft tends to lean towards offense mirrors so it's less useful here (people won't be relying entirely on status moves on defensive teams or trying to stop hazards with defog if they know you have Gholdengo etc). Still a good pick, just not meta-defining
- Chi-Yu also suffers from draft being more offensive- it's never really going to be blowing through teams because it's easy to outspeed or check with an Assault Vest, not to mention its weakness to hazards. Galar Darm has similar issues, has to deal with Rocky Helmet Water types, and people can run Protect on frail mons to scout its Gorilla Tactics move and/or bring priority to handle Zen Mode
- The Megas that seem cheap are often that low due to opportunity cost- if you take Mega Garchomp, you can't get one of the top megas, and in Garchomp's case, you can never run Yache Berry or Rocky Helmet or Loaded Dice, so it's clearly worse at being a regular Garchomp. You can definitely do it though
The three above have answered the rest but to expand on Odin's point about opportunity cost, it's not just the opportunity cost to you, the singular player, that's weighed up here - these boards tend to be built for 8-12 coach draft pools, in other words only 8-12 Mega Evolutions can be drafted in a singular draft. Mega Garchomp is rarely competing with regular Garchomp but instead is competing with other Mega Evolutions, and given its awkward Speed tier and lack of an item slot, it's often passed over in favour of other Megas, which in turn means its price falls as its not worth drafting at a higher price.
Generally speaking, these boards are largely usage based - if something seems absurdly low in price, it's most likely because it sees little usage at higher prices and has been dropped accordingly. The aim is to have most Pokémon feel worth drafting at their price.
Thank you for the responses, everyone! My group and I feel a lot better about the board after I sent them this thread. I have one other question about a specific pokemon. I don't see a metagame thread for NatDex, but I can move the conversation somewhere else if that's better.
Roaring Moon still seem very strong, and for only 16 points! It seems versatile with setup, utility, coverage, and great speed. Even with dedicated draft counter-teaming, it seems like a lot to handle. I know that the sheet has been tested by many great players before me, so what holds it back?
Roaring Moon still seem very strong, and for only 16 points! It seems versatile with setup, utility, coverage, and great speed. Even with dedicated draft counter-teaming, it seems like a lot to handle. I know that the sheet has been tested by many great players before me, so what holds it back?
Roaring Moon is an excellent pokemon in draft.
It also really wants more items than it has slots, because hazards will chip it down really quickly unless it's just going for game you need lum for status you want chople/yache so often you want booster for speed but also power at the same time etc.
Red Card burns booster and stops setup if you can survive a hit, and can be procced with Endure if needed.
Endure+Custap can do much of the same thing but with killing moon instead.
Fairies soft force iron head and steels soft force earthquake.
Strong priority can often kill moon after chip like ice shard from weavile or banded espeed from dnite.
Resist berries are especially good at beating it, because colbur not only weakens knock off but is consumed, making every other hit weaker.
Status moves that cripple you are everywhere in natdex, especially twave and toxic that force it to sweep or die.
Megas are naturally resilient to knock off which is probably your best stab, you hate dropping knock on any set.
finally its just not that strong without booster even at +1, most designated moon checks will be able to take one and hit back hard with strong coverage or status. Examples include fini, mola, azu, glisc, landot, pex, amoong (needs coba prob), etc.
update: amoong totally doesnt need coba if you simply get luckier +1 252+ Atk Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 374-442 (86.7 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
and then you spore and its like forced out basically.
and some other reasons that I'm sure better players than myself will cover
sorry for the rambling I'm not really focused rn fire emoticon hope this helps
Hi! ND Draft tiering lead here to provide some clarity:
Roaring Moon is an excellent Natdex mon which is reflected by it's 16 point price tag. This price mostly comes from it having a lot of competition and it's competition beating it head on for the most part. Although 119 base speed is excellent, other high tier dark types such as Darkrai, Meowscarada, Greninja, which all outspeed and beat it are taken early. Furthermore, many high-tier pokemon keep it directly in check that you will see often drafted r1-2 such as LandoT, Ting Lu, Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Great Tusk and more. Ohter common ways it is kept in check are through the abundance of ND fairy types, strong priority (most teams naturally have a Vacuum Wave user), and other things like hazards and status wracking up.
My team in DWL (the highest level team tour with Natdex) has a Roaring Moon team which has performed well and looks like this:
A very strong early-round 2 pick, no doubt, and it could potentially be fine at 17 points; however, it is quite balanced at 16.
Ultimately a draft board is just a suggestion and tiering is always at least somewhat subjective. I have taken hundreds of data points and performances to create these tiers so they are about as accurate as the tournament community has found to be possible. Do not be afraid to make minor tweaks at all though and gl on your season!
Mega Gallde has been the 2-3 pick overall in most high level ND for quite some time. It's blend of strength, speed, bulk, and utility are great for a draft context, especially when you can tailor your perfect coverage. This mega is known to destroy balance teams. Tusk and Lando-T are very similar, however, Tusk's access to spin has historically given it a slight edge. I personally pick Lando-t before it, regardless, it is simply a price point. Ghold is great on ladder, however, it is harder to actually spinblock in draft, and easier to fit coverage for Ghold when you know it is coming.
As said by others, ladder and draft are just different. Hard counters to these Pokémon can easily be created when you know they're coming. Chi-Yu and Gdarm are very one-dimensional. In a draft where flexibility is king, these mons really just fill one role and the opposing team can prepare for that specific sequencing and play. It is easier in draft to deny removal and bring stealth rock which also just severely hinders them. It is also very common to have a fighting-type priority user which they both lose to.
A lot of the Mega Chomp value is literally running it as itemless as you say lol. A chomp without a berry or choice item, or lefties is just a bit worse. This also can be your only mega slot so it is removing strength from your roster elsewhere, hence opportunity cost which has been mentioned.
Roaring Moon is an excellent Natdex mon which is reflected by it's 16 point price tag. This price mostly comes from it having a lot of competition and it's competition beating it head on for the most part. Although 119 base speed is excellent, other high tier dark types such as Darkrai, Meowscarada, Greninja, which all outspeed and beat it are taken early. Furthermore, many high-tier pokemon keep it directly in check that you will see often drafted r1-2 such as LandoT, Ting Lu, Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Great Tusk and more. Ohter common ways it is kept in check are through the abundance of ND fairy types, strong priority (most teams naturally have a Vacuum Wave user), and other things like hazards and status wracking up.
My team in DWL (the highest level team tour with Natdex) has a Roaring Moon team which has performed well and looks like this:
A very strong early-round 2 pick, no doubt, and it could potentially be fine at 17 points; however, it is quite balanced at 16.
Ultimately a draft board is just a suggestion and tiering is always at least somewhat subjective. I have taken hundreds of data points and performances to create these tiers so they are about as accurate as the tournament community has found to be possible. Do not be afraid to make minor tweaks at all though and gl on your season!