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CAP 37 - Part 5 - Primary Ability Discussion

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Submitting two Abilities I've seen suggested a lot on the Discord but haven't seen suggested too much here. Sorry if this post is a bit all over the place; I've been down and out with the flu for almost a week now and am kinda playing catchup a bit here, but really wanted to throw my two cents in before preliminary slate drops.

:pmd/magnezone: :pmd/porygon-z: :pmd/starmie:

I'm honestly shocked that I haven't seen Analytic suggested too much yet considering how popular it seems to be in the Discord server, and even more shocked about the amount of people considering this a clone of/inferior to Stakeout. Analytic has incredible synergy with Beak Blast; Beak Blast has negative priority and Analytic doubles in power if the user moves last. What makes this Ability so uniquely good for CAP37, though, is that it's in a very unique position to actually make use of this Ability. Other Pokemon with this Ability are either too fast to make good use of it (Starmie and Porygon-Z) or have other Abilities they would prefer to use (Magnezone). The Beak Blast/Analytic synergy primes CAP37 to actually use Analytic as its primary Ability.

I also want to rail against Stakeout and explain why Analytic isn't just a counterpart to it. The main difference is that because Stakeout will proc whenever the opponent switches while Analytic procs whenever the user moves last. I prefer Analytic to Stakeout because in my opinion, Analytic will encourage us to use Beak Blast more and thus is more pro-concept. My worry with Stakeout is that it would just turn us into a wallbreaker who just so happens to run Beak Blast, or in the absolute worst case scenario, drop Beak Blast for something like Drill Peck due to the power boost that Stakeout provides. If we really do have to choose between Analytic or Stakeout, I'd take Analytic any day of the week.

:pmd/mamoswine: :pmd/walrein: :pmd/appletun:

Thick Fat is another Ability I'm stunned to have not seen suggested when it's really popular in the Discord server. It take the opposite approach from Analytic in being purely defensive focused while Analytic focuses more on offense. I do like Thermal Exchange quite a bit and would like to see this on slate but wanted to throw this one out there for one crucial reasoning: the way it transforms our matchup with Kyurem. Turning one of our guaranteed checks into a mon we can go toe to toe with, on top of maintaining the good matchups against Fire types like Moltres, Mollux, Ramnarok, and Iron Moth that Thermal Exchange already provided us with just makes this so much better in my eyes.
 
Hi everybody, as an update, I am planning on tomorrow for the preliminary slate, likely around 24h from now (apologies for the slight delay, my week's been nuts). Prior to that, I want to show my thought process on a few abilities and give a chance for people to discuss if they'd like.

First of all, I want to talk about Stakeout for a minute. It is pretty likely to appear on the preliminary slate. It’s an extremely popular option, for good reason. It punishes the opponent for an action that is otherwise very good counterplay to Beak Blast, switching out. It increases the differential threat of switching out vs. staying in, which can “pin” the opponent and force them to take a burn out of a lack of a better option. This is clearly pro-concept, and it’s fairly unique in this respect. I do however have some pretty significant reservations about this ability.

One is that it looks to me like it's heavily restrictive to future stages. Some degree of this is acceptable and normal, but I worry that this ability takes it to a different level. The rest of the TLT seems to be less concerned about this, so this has become lower on my list of concerns for that reason.

My primary concern is about how this mon actually ends up playing. We already have a near-unresisted STAB combination, and a 2x multiplier is nothing to be trifled with. Of the few existing Stakeout users, they've largely functioned as wallbreakers. Beak Blast, while strong, is not a great wallbreaking move, because moving last is not ideal for wallbreaking in most scenarios, and the burn effect becomes marginal if you’re aiming for kills. I think there’s a risk of Beak Blast being de-prioritized. My feeling is that your dark STAB is often likely to be more threatening and clickable outside of specific pinning scenarios. I also worry that we’re triangulated between exerting enough pressure in stay-in scenarios that aren't for example Tusk, and allowing for there to still be some form of counterplay (see Shnowshner's post above- my views are similar).

Despite the rocks weakness, I also think there’s some legitimate risk of us running a boosting item and really de-prioritizing Beak Blast. You have to keep in mind that with an ability like Stakeout, boosting items get into multiplier stacking territory. Even something like Black Glasses boosts the total multiplier on your dark move to 3.6 (factoring STAB) on the switch, or 4.8 with tera involved. Choice Band has a multiplier of 4.5, or 6 with tera, at which point some quad-resists can maybe only switch in once. As a point of comparison, Choice Band Proto Attack Tera Fire Gouging Fire in sun hits a lower multiplier (5.85). Completely different mons and our multiplier is conditional (:pimp:), but I'm trying to give a sense of the damage numbers we're putting up. Obviously you’re making really significant concessions running a boosting item, but I’m worried we’re kind of playing with fire. I'm not totally sure how likely sets like this are, and there are ways to curtail this risk, but they may involve heavily restricting other aspects of the mon. I’m not fully convinced overall that this ability is pro-Beak Blast.

Mostly posting this to facilitate some discussion and to make sure we really know what we’re getting into. Again, I am likely to include it on slate due to to widespread community support despite my reservations if nothing changes. It has a lot of appealing aspects, and I have a lot of trust in the process and our TLT and I'm sure we can pull it off if it wins.
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Magic Bounce is unlikely to see slate right now. The bar for an ability like this is pretty high, to me at least. It has undeniably pro-concept aspects in that it denies a lot of non-contact move options, and it makes switching in considerably easier. It also frees up your item slot since you can pretty freely switch into most hazard setters. But a Dark/Flying Magic Bouncer is very meta-warping for a lot of those same reasons. Magic Bounce completely changes the identity of mons that have it– to a certain extent they exist to be thrown onto the field when a hazard setter enters. I find the meta implications to be pretty intimidating. I think this distracts from Beak Blast in practice, and there are cleaner ways to deal with status, switching in, etc.
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A few abilities I would love to hear some more opinions on are Prankster, Thick Fat, and Comatose. Would also love to hear more opinions on if Thermal Exchange and Water Absorb are doing enough. I appreciate the feedback posts, keep em coming!
 
I’m defending Stakeout and Prankster because they give more flexibility with stats.

To me, a good Beak Blast needs too many high stats to work without an ability to patch one of those. It needs solid bulk to take hits, enough damage to discourage switches, and possibly a fast recovery+Taunt so that we are not just a blob. That's 5/6 stats, and unrealistic.

Stakeout works because we can build with lower offensive stats to cover for the risk of being a balancing nightmare. I'm visualising something like
Scream Tail with slightly less bulk and a bit more Atk. The threat of Stakeout pseudo-traps the opponent, and having a fast Taunt forces them to play the Beak Blast game.

Prankster lets us have lower Spe while keeping the fast recovery and Taunt. It also makes Beak Blast’s negative priority less punishing if we already have low Spe to begin with.

Not saying that we necessarily have to lower those stats, but these abilities definitely give more wiggle room to fine-tune according to our desired threatlist.
 
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Submitting an ability people are probably getting sick of hearing about an an ability that hasn't seen much attention.

Prankster is the poor man's combo pack of magic bounce and opportunist. Prankster+taunt is the only way for one ability to counter both boosting pokemon like bulk up great tusk/dragon dance dnite and status spreaders like will-o-wisp kitsunoh/dragapult. Additionally, it allows 37 to more consistently use any utility, recovery, or boosting moves it may get later on. Prankster is an ability that will likely make our later steps more interesting but not balance-threatening, due to increasing the viability of any nondamaging options we give it. However, prankster is still a fairly moderate ability. Unlike magic bounce or opportunist, prankster does not work on switch in, reducing the tax on the power budget. Additionally, prankster taunt can be predicted with a damaging move. This may seem to defeat the purpose of prankster, but imo this just looks like baiting contact moves to me, which is a net positive. It also has funny interactions with preventing kitsunoh will-o-wisps. The big downside is the gambit matchup. Unless it ends up running foul play/haze, 37 goes from a gambit burner to gambit fodder.

Stakeout... yeah, this exists. Everybody's spoken a lot about this, so there I'm not gonna yap much here. I would, however, like to offer up a counterargument to the common complaint that stakeout is too op if the user gets a good attack stat, but turns 37 into a sitting duck if the attack stat is too low because the opponent can just not switch and ignore the beak blasts. I don't think this is a particularly convincing argument. If the opponent isn't switching, we are doing our job. The not switching opponent is either boosting (if it even has a boosting move), and getting whacked by a beak blast/taunted, and still has no option to evade the burn, or just accepts the burn.

As for the fear that band/boosting items will be used... they might. But even if they are, beak blast is likely just as spammable as the dark stab. Beak blast is 100 bp, and negative priority is less of a priority when the huge multipliers only occur on switch, where speed doesn't matter. Additionally, choice band is a REALLY good item to knock off, and the fear of a band set can trick opponents into staying in or knocking into a beak blast, even if there's no threat. Finally, if this thing ever gets trick or switcheroo, band is somewhat pro-concept due to preventing status moves or locking in contact moves.

Also black glasses and band get eviscerated by rocks.

*I edited this before posting and for some reason it didn't save my changes; this was showing an old draft. Probably has something to do with my internet going out.
 
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Copying Dex's format word for word, bar for bar.

Abilities I really like:

Opportunist: I already gave my arguments for it but it 100% should make the slate.

Analytic: Boosts our damage while going last and while forcing the opponent to switch-out, two situations we will find ourselves in very frequently. Slate shouldn't proceed without it.

Stakeout: One of of the frontrunners and I find mentions than the power is too much to be completely overblown. We are a Flying Dark type, we are NEVER running band or life orb, enjoy getting chipped to death if you do so, as even something like black glasses is a big asked with very little payoff. Its firepower is very likely to give a very measurable role to 37 in "trapping" the targets of its beak blast out of fear of bb's resists getting destroyed by a particularly strong dark stab, meaning we actually get to use our move.

Abilities I kinda like:

Filter / Solid Rock: Very direct effect, having the ability to not get randomly blown back by a coverage move while we are charging our attack is very much appreciated and allows us to really be able to make the most of the turn the move is charging by letting the attack connect.

Magic Bounce: Restricting on the rest of the process, but I can definitely see the appeal. I disagree that it would be too distracting and not help focus enough on Beak Blast. This ability helps us deal with ghost type antics way easier as we can avoid wisps from pult, saps from Kitsunoh, and Hazards from the likes of Ting-Lu. Dismissing it for its strength would be a diservice to the mon as its typing actually appreciate the ability quite a lot and leads to some very interesting matchups.

Thermal Exchange: The more acceptable of all the status immunity abilities proposed so far. You actually get a marginal benefit from the fire moves you absorb and it mayorly improves the matchup against ghost types. Fire types shouldn't be a priority given we picked this typing but being an easier switch into the likes of Mollux or Cinderace is admitedly pretty nice.

Abilities that im indifferent towards:

Comatose: Its alright, I feel people are becoming way too paranoid on the status front with all these immunity abilities and this one is pretty restricting in the design, but admitedly its a very fair option when it comes to avoiding status in its entirity.

Mold Breaker: This looks like its heading into the mold breaker defog archetype and I don't really like that since I find it would distract from the goal of using Beak Blast. I will admit that there's some merit to it though, as we break through multiscale as well as being able to knock off absorbers like Hydrapple and Shox.

Abilities that Im not a big fan of:

Wonder Skin: Good as Gold's cousin Bad as Bronze. There's funny interactions to be had with this ability sure, but making everything a 50/50 is neither fun for the opponent nor is it fun for us to play with.

Thick Fat: Sure it does help a lot to prevent the ice typing weakness, and being able to tank hits from fire types is nice. But I think its very outclassed by other options, as filter does slightly better against general supereffective hits, and stuff like Thermal Exchange can actually absorb burns, which is the main issue we have against the typing as well as ghosts. The ice type neutrality is fine I guess, but most of the users of said moves go no contact so its not the best use of Beak Blast for them.

Abilities that should be vetoed from consideration:

Prankster: Very overrated ability for this concept and I really, really don't see the hype from this ability. We are likely to run 2 stabs + recovery, very much restricting our status options. People are talking about prankster options and none of them are interesting in the slightest, the best thing people are offering is taunt which a) takes a moveslot to deal with setup users when other abilities do a better job, b) makes you an easier switch for the likes of Kingambit and the rest of dark types in the tier. A lot of people are already assuming we should stay slow with our speed, when I argue some speed to have the secondary stab finish off stuff is an option we would locking ourselves out from exploring by picking this ability. There's better ways to deal with setup users than having to allocate a whole moveslot for it, while getting little benefit from the abilities other wise.

Sticky Hold / Magician / Pickup: Stop trying to decentivize people from wanting to take the gamble of a knock off, that's what justifies the gamble of clicking Blast in the first place.

Water Absorb + All other water immunities: We are already decently well against Ogerpon, Arghonaut and Snaelstrom. This ability doesn't help us with most other water types, as the likes of Cresseidon and Naviathan are still beating us pretty well. Completely unnessesary precautions to scald.

Most of everything else: Pretty much.
 
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Gonna go through the abilities mentioned here and shoutout some that are related but not mentioned.

Stakeout- While I support this over analytic, I am concerned about the volatility of the damage and what this could mean- I know people say it's easy to balance and it only flips a few matchup, but its hard to feel out how something is actually going to play. And while the playstyle we build for might be fine to play against, it wouldn't surprise me to less conventional uses overshadowing it and demanding a nerf- something like your example of dropping boots for a boosting item, maybe utilizing slow pivots wish and/or strong hazard prevention to allow for better wallbreaking. Not advocating for its removal, so this part is kind of pointless, but I'm just wary.

Prankster- I see some point to prankster? It makes it easier to run a tank spread and not invest in speed, and if we give it recovery roost coud create a pro-concept mixup (is that polljumpy? We've talked about the imapct of abilities on access to recovery idk). But I also think a higher speed tier that benefits from investment to create an interesting dynamic between speed and negative priority could do similar things. Ultimately I think its fine, but don't think it does all that much for us when our moveslots to abuse it are going to be limited. Honestly, if we actually give it the moves to abuse it this might be one of the abilities that is most risky in terms of dropping beak blast.

Thick Fat- Strongly support the inclusion of atleast one ability that changes our defensive profile. There was a lot of talk about one of our gaps being limited switch in opportunities, but now abilities that help it kind of feel like they've fallen off the radar. Thick Fat however is not going to be a top choice for me. While the fire type resist to make up for burn immunities is nice, I think we either want a defensive ability that gives us strong physical targets or helps shore up special attackers that could check us to lessen their impact as easy switch ins. I think I prefer Filter for that second purpose.

Comatose- I support anti status abilities, but don't think we need to go this far. I don't have a favorite but I much prefer any of the weaker ones including Thermal Exchange.

Would also like to support Opportunist. Beak Blast by itself makes us a capable physical check- but Pokemon that can just ignore us and set up repeatedly can ruin this plan. Opportunist helps us beat set up sweepers that can either take on our beak blast with recovery or tera.

And I'd once again like to make an appeal for Water Absorb from the crowd. Yes, it is narrow. But switch in opportunities was something we talked a lot about lacking, and this is a great stage to make up for it and let us add a key target. Ignoring the other benefits, Ogerpon is in A+ rank, and is one of the few physical attackers we can't reliably switch into and force out. While it is one mon, it has a large place in the metagame and being able to check most physical attackers instead of only some is very valuable for finding our place on a team and bets us better leverage Beak Blast reliably. I've also seen the argument that we already do well into Oger. My concern here is- we are aiming to be something like a tank, so that we can offensively leverage Beak Blast. This means that we are not aiming for full physdef investment. This combined with the lack of leftovers, Ogerpon's common usage of both knock off and u-turn, and Oger being a great and common tera user, means I do not have a lot of faith in this matchup. And while these tools do mean that even with water absorb ogerpon will still be able to hurt us- the damage will be limited and we'll still be able to reliably switch into it and force it out.
 
I'm not at all concerned about Stakeout's damage output on other moves. As I said in my earlier post, a lot of what makes a defensive Pokemon useful is having intrinsic utility in the moves you would want to click 90% of the time. Not giving it Knock Off is a fine approach to addressing this.

Viol mentioned that their calcs used Crunch, but as I said in my earlier post, just clicking raw damage-dealing moves as a defensive Pokemon is not a great gambit when you could be leveraging your position to make some form of progress or to disrupt. Beak Blast will not be disincentivized so long as we are conscientious its intrinsic utility with other moves as an offensive mid-ground.

viol and bass said:
A few abilities I would love to hear some more opinions on are Prankster, Thick Fat, and Comatose. Would also love to hear more opinions on if Thermal Exchange and Water Absorb are doing enough. I appreciate the feedback posts, keep em coming!
Click to expand...

Prankster I am very ambivalent on. I sort of see the vision with locking in setup or other forms of counterplay to Beak Blast with priority Encore but that's sort of it. I don't think it's cohesive enough outside of one or two situations. For this purpose I think Opportunist is probably better, especially into Zamazenta.

Thick Fat is inoffensive on paper I guess, but I think doesn't do enough or targets anything of particular value. I don't like it.

Thermal Exchange and Comatose I sort of get as Will-O-Wisp really ruins us. The Attack boost on Thermal Exchange could also come in handy for Beak Blast itself. I don't really know if it does enough for us though, and this is part of why I'm big on Guts as it gives us the ability to convert more situations into an offensive advantage, including those covered by Thermal Exchange. Comatose is a better defensive ability for this purpose in a vacuum and it probably is fine to slate, but I do like giving Beak Blast more oomph in the situations where it only inflicts damage.

I heavily dislike Water Absorb, as we already should 1v1 Ogerpon in most cases. IMO We should be using our primary ability to accentuate how we use Beak Blast, and all Water Absorb does is focus on one particular matchup that we are already threatening in anyway.
 
Responses:

Feel like Stakeout has sucked the oxygen out of room, my 2c:​
  • Even offensive Flying mons want to run Boots (offensive Zapdos, which would love Specs). This serves as an inherent limiter to Stakeout's power.​
  • For the Dark STAB, anything that is not overly clickable and lesser in power than Beak Blast will not overshadow it in clickability. Beak forces switches and 100 > 80.​
  • Chromera exists and STAB Tera Boomburst, which outputs similar level of power as a Stakeout Crunch, does not make it inherently broken. It can also use this power unconditionally. Comparison with 115 Atk and SpAtk:​
252+ SpA Tera Normal Chromera Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Shell Terapagos: 123-145 (32 - 37.7%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Stakeout Tera Dark Chromera Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Shell Terapagos: 141-166 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 100 Atk, fully invested, does not change our matchups significantly as my calcs in my previous post shows. If we get Stakeout, we have to go higher in power. To balance this, we might have to fully lean into the "perishable resource" route with big damage + Taunt. Denying recovery here is fine, or even pro-concept, as we encourage making permanent progress against us with damage.​
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Prankster is awkward with Taunt alone, as it would compete with Beak Blast for clicks. In a Kitsunoh vs 37 interaction, I mentioned that Kitsunoh would be able to switch out with U-turn sometimes because we can't really risk being Burned. However, if recovery of any status-y sort is allowed, this damage from U-turns, Knocks, and Hazards all become relatively smaller roadblocks to our strategy. So Prankster helps us in a "longevity" route, although our impact with every turn will probably be less. Regenerator can help us do this passively, at the cost of not patching the status vulnerability.
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Thermal Exchange helps us passively solve our one issue with faster status users we might beat with our kit otherwise (Kitsunoh, Dragapult;we are never beating Cresceidon anyway), making 37 "well-rounded". Comatose does too much, and eats into the power budget. On such a workable kit, I would rather highlight its strengths in a distilled form with moves/stats. Guts gives us more power, but then the decreased survivability with Beak Blast is awkward.
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None of the rest viol asks about seem particularly concept-adjacent.
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Throwing some more support behind Opportunist as it helps us be "anti-setup" in a way really distinct from Unaware. It is one of the few routes that encourages us to hard-switch, as timing the switch into something that is setting up is where we can extract maximum value. Bulk Up Revenankh and Iron Defense Zamazenta are versions of our targets that can possibly overpower us with Sheer Power/Tera, as well as things like Dragonite, and we can punish them or force out Teras. Getting punished on the switch or switching with no Boots hurts, so I still have some reservations.​
 
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Abilities I support:

Opportunist: Easily my top pick for this guy, I lean on addressing the issue of mons setting up on our Beak Blaster more so than the issue of dealing with status, as I think there's a very likely world where this mon just sucks because its targets set up on it and it isn't strong enough to threaten them out in time. Opportunist deals with this very cleanly, more so than Prankster Taunt would imo, and incentivizes usage of Beak Blast possibly the most of any ability listed because the opponent is now trapped between attacking the boosted 37 and potentially taking a burn, or switching out and taking the brunt of a potentially boosted Beak Blast. Beak Blast spam = very good with this ability.

Thermal Exchange/Comatose/Guts: While I care more about opps setting up on us, status IS a big deal and if we are wanting to deal with 37's existing issues, its gonna be that or status. All three of these feel pretty fine and have their own niches over each other. Comatose is definitely the strongest cause it means we're a complete status sponge, but I don't think its too strong of an effect (not as centralizing as Magic Bounce anywho). If it is deemed too much, Natural Cure is actually a great replacement for it and is being pretty underrated in the thread. If I had to pick, though, lowkey Guts? This mon isn't really going to run Flame Orb because of the Rocks weakness we have so I think we're safe from 37 pivoting to a Guts wallbreaking role. It deals with our Wisp problem very directly and gives 37 some great utility in deterring any Ghosts from clicking the move lest they want their team to be pelted with stronger STABs, including our Beak Blast.

Analytic > Stakeout: I wouldn't be mad if Stakeout was chosen, but I can't lie there is never going to be a balanced Stakeout mon that isn't dogshit (existing Stakeout mons) or heavily crippled in a way that would make it likely bad in CAP's meta. The damage output is really insane. Analytic just feels more balanced even though I think Beak Blast always being boosted is kind of a cheap way to make us spam it LOL

Abilities I don't particularly mind:

Filter/Solid Rock > Thick Fat: There's like, one contact Ice move that is used commonly. I don't see why we would want to solely target Ice-types for a better matchup when it likely won't help us that much. Filter and Solid Rock offer a more general buff to our defenses and would result in a better defensive mon.

Prankster: I like Opportunist a bit better in terms of giving our mon the ability to disrupt would-be counterplay, but I do like how this ability can target both setup and status at once with smart play. We also don't really struggle with the Dark-types in CAP except for Kingambit who I consider to be pretty trash and is very uncommon compared to regular OU.

Abilities I kinda really don't wanna see on that slate:

Water Absorb: While I like giving 37 more defensive niches considering Dark/Flying is a bit whatever in that regard, this just isn't the way. You don't really deal with Waters well except for Ogerpon, so this ability is really just for Ogerpon. Do we really need more Wellspring checks.... okay maybe but no you are going to use your Mollux, Dragons and Grass-types and you are going to like it.

Mold Breaker: Just not strong enough imo. Breaking Multiscale is cute and all but I don't think there's enough matchups affected by Mold Breaker to really let us stand out either defensively or as an offensive tank.

Sticky Hold: We need a stronger ability to stand out and I feel like this doesn't incentivize Beak Blast usage all that well.

Wonder Skin: just pick Magic Bounce before I smash my computer from getting 50% Wisped or something
 
Okay im going to make a second post about this,Have we considered Adaptability? It kind of checks off the same boxes analytic does in that it incentivises clicking the beak blast which is the entire thing we are going with here,making it stronger,plus the boost is similar to analytic's math wise
 
Hi everybody, here's the preliminary slate. While this was a very open stage, I think the ethos of "ether gain more switch-in opportunities, or exert more pressure when you're on the field" ended up predominating, and the slate reflects that. I'm very happy to answer questions about what got slated and what didn't. Feel free to discuss. If something wasn't included, it likely wasn't just overlooked. I really tried to think through everything submitted pretty carefully and can explain my reasoning, although there's obviously a lot of subjectivity and I'm human. Final slate will ideally be in about 24 hours, although I've got a music thing tomorrow night so there's a chance I'll need some sleep first, in which case maybe add another 11 hours or so.

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Opportunist
This is one of the few abilities suggested that tackles opposing setup, preventing mons such as Bulk Up Revenankh and Great Tusk from being able to boost up on us while taking little in return. It may also save us a moveslot, since the “universally assumed move” Taunt becomes less necessary. I was initially skeptical about this ability but it’s really neat here.

Stakeout
I’ve expressed my reservations with this ability, but it has undeniably pro-concept elements. It can scare the opponent into staying in, which can promote Beak Blast’s conditional effect. You can also sort of think of the power doubling as a conditional effect added onto our moves. Because one of our weaknesses is switching in, Stakeout is saying "let's get more value out of fewer entrances".

Analytic
This ability is more focused on Beak Blast’s general damage output, while also threatening opponents on switch-out. Depending on speed tiers it will boost Beak Blast in situations where our Dark STAB isn’t boosted, which can make the move more clickable. Like the above, it's focused on extracting value every time we enter the field.

Filter / Solid Rock
This ability helps us take super-effective moves like Ice Spinner or Stone Edge from physical mons we'd like to check more easily, but we also have a number of weaknesses to primarily special types, and discouraging special mons from dealing with us freely can be pro-concept. This is also a mon that will have to tank hits to get Beak Blast off, and this ability directly helps you do that.

Thermal Exchange
This ability's use is very focused, mainly existing to prevent burn from Kit, Pult, etc. It allows us to become a much safer switch-in to these threats which could be valuable as a Dark type trying to fill a teamslot. It can also boost attack on Fire hits– it's likely pretty difficult to activate the attack boost successfully, but when it happens the payoff is significant with our offensive typing. Because of the difficulty of safe activation, I don't feel that the attack boost will be limiting to future stages.

Comatose
Like Thermal, Comatose lets us switch into wisp users like Kitsunoh and Wisp Pult much more freely, but it also targets poison spreaders like non-NP Pecharunt & Slowking-Galar that are really nice to come in on freely as a Dark-type. As a whole this gives a ton of switch-in / stay-in opportunities, and the rest of our build can freely focus on what we accomplish when we're on the field.

Prankster
Bit of a wild card. This ability does not help with switching in, but in combination with the universally assumed move Taunt, it can prevent both status and setup, which we've identified as issues here. It also provokes opponents to attack us, which can create pro-concept interactions. This obviously opens up a lot of other status-category move options that can interact with our build in interesting ways. Although this is a late entry that hasn't received as much discussion, I felt that it offered enough unique traits that it merited inclusion.
 
Comatose providing full status immunity feels rather heavy-handed imo, it fully eliminates non-direct damage as a form of counterplay given we're running boots the majority of the time, meaning the opponent is forced to Knock into us or expend an available Trick user. I understand that removing status from the equation means more contact moves our way, so the vision isn't lost on me, it's more a matter of raw strength. CAP 37 now has a very easy time coming in on a variety of more defensive Pokemon, particularly when you can use Tera to augment your defensive profile. I don't think it needs that much help entering the field between its typing and the large amount of pivots in the metagame.

I would like to see Natural Cure > Comatose on the slate. Natural Cure provides a similar shield against Status moves but only once we've left the field, so the opponent can still use Status to temporarily debuff us if needed, or at least makes us wary of hard switching in. You also get the somewhat minor but applicable benefits of not losing HP every turn vs Darkrai and gain the option of Rest as full recovery with diminished drawbacks. I think Guts is also a fine replacement that punishes the opponent for statusing us rather than outright denying it, while not overdoing us on power given running Flame Orb on a Flying-type means you're exceptionally vulnerable to chip damage, and become even less inclined to come in on potential Knock Offs prior to activation.

Remainder of the slate looks good, I'm still wary of Stakeout overall but it's hard to overlook the synergy with Beak Blast. I'll be voting it below Analytic regardless.
 
I don't really have much more to add on Opportunist (it's a good choice!), Stakeout (it's the most concept-orientated as I see it, and if it's balanced on a mon with 120 Atk in ZU we're probably fine), and Comatose (though I also think swapping this to Natural Cure is valid). I am also glad to see that Analytic has been listed as its own thing - even if I think the ability isn't the right call here, the argument is there.

I really don't understand the value of Filter/Solid Rock, and I'm not hugely fond of it being slated. Like, we have an entire stats stage to reduce the damage of super-effective hits - and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in saying that if we choose F/SR we likely end up with slightly less bulk for tanking neutral hits in exchange? I mean, there is a coherent argument that 'taking damage at a more consistent level, even if we take slightly more from neutral hits, is better for our ability to consistently use Beak Blast', but I don't really see it - and the lack of arguments to that effect in the thread sort of tells me that nobody else sees it. If we do want an ability that helps us survive coverage blows, whilst also making use of our pro-concept ability to use BB at low health and encourage Knock Off into us even through the risk of Burn, please allow me to reintroduce Sturdy to the mix!

No I am not mentioning Ice Scales I am too tired to mention Ice Scales after a full day of teaching nope not happening

Not Speaking of signature abilities, I'm still yet to see an argument that Thermal Exchange is more pro-concept than Water Veil, and I would swap them in a heartbeat. Both block burns, but Thermal Exchange explicitly encourages us to enter play against Fire-types. The one type of mon which we cannot use our Conditional effect to burn. My main concern is that we create a Pokémon which ends up not wanting to use Beak Blast because it often enters into Fire-type damage... or we create a Pokémon which never uses that side effect of Thermal. Both the cases I can see are screaming 'just go Water Veil' to me.

Finally, Prankster! Definitely things to like - the impact on potential recovery is lovely - but as with Guingul's earlier post, I'm concerned about the play loop against two of the named targets, Kit and Drag. Kit and Drag are never switching into us, so my best vision for the cycle is "Pivot CAP37 in cleanly, then use Taunt (to block the debilitating attacks) as they use U-Turn". I'm concerned that our optimal plan with Prankster Taunt against those two is that we switch in, and then in an opportunity to use Beak Blast's Burn we instead have to play safe. Unless we think that the threat of Burn would be enough to force Kit/Drag to hard switch, I don't see much gained from the matchup that I seem to see the most commonly mentioned. That said from my perspective this is fine on the slate (it's a lovely slate!!!!! except where I don't like it obvs!!!!!) since Prankster has a ton of other benefits that are best discussed in Movepool, but since it's been such a relatively late entry I'd feel remiss not highlighting this.
 
I would like to suggest replacing Filter/Solid Rock with Intimidate. Intimidate helps CAP 37 get onto the field against Pokemon you want it in on more frequently. It does this by easing switching into all physical attackers, who are generally CAP 37's targets to leverage Beak Blast's power and effect to force switches. Filter, on the other hand, I do not think is as applicable in this regard. Many of CAP 37's weaknesses are special, like Moonblast users, Kyurem, and Raging Bolt. CAP 37's typing is designed to come in on physical attackers, and Intimidate lets it do that with more frequency, which in turn enables Beak Blast better.

I also follow the logic for Natural Cure over Comatose. I think that Natural Cure accomplishes a similar goal without being heavy-handed and I personally don't like the Darkrai interaction with Comatose.
 
First off, this is a great list. It hits most of the bases and selects mostly what are probably the most popular abilities of each potential ability 'role' (eg. status immunity, defensive, switch punishment, etc.) The initial slate is very well rounded.

There's a decent amount of support for intimidate over filter as the defensive ability choice, but I think that viol's initial decision was correct. The only commonly used contact options that get a meaningful power reduction from filter are:
Draining kiss, play rough, spirit break, ice spinner, ice punch, triple axle, and galvanize rapid spin/double edge.
The commonly used contact moves that get a meaningful power reduction from intimidate are:
All of them (except for draining kiss and infestation)
Intimidate does a good job of forcing switches against the wrong targets. We want the contact spammers to stay in and the special attackers to be forced out, not the other way around. Intimidate has the same issue as iron barbs/lingering aroma.

In defense of prankster, prankster taunt is weak to u-turn, and using taunt to deny the burn IS our safest play against a will-o-wisp mon. However, u-turn is not their safest play on us. Will-o-wisp is safer, due to OUR threat of burns from beak blast. They are in exactly the same situation as us, but their punishment for losing the predict is worse than ours, due to the 100 bp beak blast if they u-turn or being stuck against a dark type if they get taunted while will-o'ing.

I'd also like to support natural cure over comatose.
 
traceyscetchit said:
We want the contact spammers to stay in and the special attackers to be forced out, not the other way around. Intimidate has the same issue as iron barbs/lingering aroma.
Click to expand...
I think this is a very misguided idea. Beak Blast already forces out contact attackers due to its effect. There is no enticing them to stay in, they aren't staying in if they can't avoid the burn. Beak Blast in most scenarios is forcing a switch by itself unless the opponent is trading a burn for a KO, which is not a common scenario. The reason stuff like Iron Barbs is not good is for that reason; Beak Blast forces contact users out. What we should be wanting from these defense-boosting abilities is the ability to get CAP 37 more chances to switch in and force switches with Beak Blast. Intimidate does a much better job of this than Filter for the very reason you demonstrated; it just applies to more moves from the Pokemon we want to force out.
 
Thanks for your patience guys. Here is your final slate. Natural Cure > Comatose, rest is the same. In terms of other slot changes mentioned, these abilities mostly hadn't received enough support for me to feel good slotting them in, or in the case of Guts, there were some concerns raised.
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Opportunist
This is one of the few abilities suggested that tackles opposing setup, preventing mons such as Bulk Up Revenankh and Great Tusk from being able to boost up on us while taking little in return. It may also save us a moveslot, since the “universally assumed move” Taunt becomes less necessary. I was initially skeptical about this ability but it’s really neat here.

Stakeout
I’ve expressed my reservations with this ability, but it has undeniably pro-concept elements. It can scare the opponent into staying in, which can promote Beak Blast’s conditional effect. You can also sort of think of the power doubling as a conditional effect added onto our moves. Because one of our weaknesses is switching in, Stakeout is saying "let's get more value out of fewer entrances".

Analytic
This ability is more focused on Beak Blast’s general damage output, while also threatening opponents on switch-out. Depending on speed tiers it will boost Beak Blast in situations where our Dark STAB isn’t boosted, which can make the move more clickable. Like the above, it's focused on extracting value every time we enter the field.

Filter / Solid Rock
This ability helps us take super-effective moves like Ice Spinner or Stone Edge from physical mons we'd like to check more easily, but we also have a number of weaknesses to primarily special types, and discouraging special mons from dealing with us freely can be pro-concept. This is also a mon that will have to tank hits to get Beak Blast off, and this ability directly helps you do that.

Thermal Exchange
This ability's use is very focused, mainly existing to prevent burn from Kit, Pult, etc. It allows us to become a much safer switch-in to these threats which could be valuable as a Dark type trying to fill a teamslot. It can also boost attack on Fire hits– it's likely pretty difficult to activate the attack boost successfully, but when it happens the payoff is significant with our offensive typing. Because of the difficulty of safe activation, I don't feel that the attack boost will be limiting to future stages.

Natural Cure
Natural Cure allows us to shrug off status by switching out. It's not a perfect status solve, since we don't necessarily love switching around frequently (this is a mon that can only exert pressure when it's already on the field unlike something like Zapdos). However that's probably a good thing. This is a particularly strong ability into mons that have to fish for status like Slowking-Galar or Malignant Chain Pecharunt. It gives us more play into status mons without completely neutering status as an option against us.

Prankster
Bit of a wild card. This ability does not help with switching in, but in combination with the universally assumed move Taunt, it can prevent both status and setup, which we've identified as issues here. It also provokes opponents to attack us, which can create pro-concept interactions. This obviously opens up a lot of other status-category move options that can interact with our build in interesting ways. Although this is a late entry that hasn't received as much discussion, I felt that it offered enough unique traits that it merited inclusion.
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Thanks so so much for your contributions everyone! This is been a fun and interesting stage from the get-go, and I loved discussing and processing a ton of different options together as a community. Passing this on to earthflax for approval or evisceration.
 
I'm going to use my -1 on Stakeout.
Initially, I didn't see an issue with this ability, and I still think that a lot of the positives it would have for us are valid. However, after a lot of deliberation I believe that this ability is far too warping for the rest of the process; in short, I don't think that there is a large target for us to shoot for in terms of viability. Using up almost all of our power budget in this stage means that we are limited heavily in future stages, and I simply do not think that this is a winning strategy for CAP37, especially when looking at the similarities that Pokemon with similar typings and roles as CAP37 have in movepool and stats. The big issue for me, therefore, is uncertainty. We have the central move in our kit locked down, we have our typing locked down, we have a general role locked down, and yet there is still so little that I can conclude from what a Stakeout CAP37 would mean for the rest of the process and the metagame at large. When there are many other options for which that is not the case, and when considering the obvious strength and volatility of an ability like Stakeout, I can't, in good faith, keep it on the slate.

If you have further questions for me, feel free to ask them in the CAP Discord.
Let's roll to poll.
 
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