CAP 37 - Part 7 - Defining Moves

[kenn]

CAP 37 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• High Base-Power Moves
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)

Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).

With that, I hand this over to dex and expect ample discussion to be done!

 

[dex]

Hello! CAP 37 is coming into shape. However, our conversation about role and checks has still left a lot for us to define, and what's more defining than Defining Moves? Nothing, that's what. Let's get to it.

1. CAP 37’s typing, Dark/Flying, along with the desire to run Beak Blast, semi-locks its moveset. We essentially have two slots to work with. What should be CAP 37’s focus for its remaining move slots? Some categories I’d like to see discussion about are Recovery, Utility, Setup, Coverage, and Priority. Reminder that discussion of specific moves or coverage types is not open yet.
2. I’m going to immediately break my own rule here and pointedly ask about the move on everyone’s mind: Knock Off. There’s been a lot of dancing around the topic of this move so far this process, and for good reason. It’s a powerful tool, especially on a presumably physical Dark-type. My questions are this: should Knock Off be a defining/required move for CAP 37? How does Knock Off complement Beak Blast? Are there any concerns worth our time with the move?

 

[quziel]

I'm of the opinion that Beak Blast / Dark STAB (Knock Off is very good) / Recovery (Roost or Recover depending on how much we hate Equilibra) is a very set 3 slots, and then the 4th slot is cool as effectively a tech slot that we can adjust depending on what our team needs.

Hazards are extremely effective on us because we can hard swap in on Spin, reset hazards, and then basically dare our opponent to set them again. We have a positive typing matchup against several common spinners in the format, and this kinda dynamic where your setter is just really good at resetting hazards is a proven good.

Taunt is a universally assumed move, and provides major value here. Knock Off is sorta necessary to make it really good, but the ability to just Knock Garg, and then play 50/50s with it every subsequent switchin is a major upgrade to our ability to face it, and takes it from a hard loss to a mon that we're definitely not favored vs, but at the same time don't lose to nearly as hard. For this reason I'm in favor of listing Knock Off as a defining move, and frankly would debate listing it as a required move due to how strongly it cripples most Beak Blast checks.

I'm not in favor of setup on this mon. Opportunist already provides a bit of setup to us, and while yeah, it encourages an opponent to hit us now in order to limit our future strength, it just feels weird. Beak Blast being negative priority also just makes us incredibly weird to both play with and against in a hypothetical situation where we get boosting.

Coverage is weird. Taunt swings basically the same matchups that coverage does barring specific 4x hits aka Gliscor and Kingambit, two mons that don't really care too much about our main combo, though the latter has some truly wacky interactions with Beak Blast / Opportunist.

 

[spoo]

I think Knock Off should be an optional move - I’m usually in favor of giving stat submitters more freedom rather than less. Knock is definitely nice in conjunction with Beak Blast, given that some of Beak Blast’s best counterplay is simply switching out & Knock is good at punishing switches, but I don’t believe Knock Off is mandatory for our concept or viability. There are other Dark STABs that could easily take its place (some being more interesting than others).

Recovery is good for us, and is honestly something I’d make required. The difference between spreads with and without Knock Off is probably just a matter of higher stat limits, but the difference between spreads with and without recovery is much more drastic. The difference is not just in how recovery affects CAP 37’s strength, but how it affects its playstyle and gameplan. Recovery-less CAP37 will play fundamentally differently than routes that do include it, and I worry it would make the stat stages too unfocused if we left the door open to allowing both paths.

 

[N-Manifold]

Beak Blast is the obvious required move, and I'm of the opinion that it is the only required move here. I strongly believe that recovery should most definitely be optional for now, with BSR penalties for its inclusion. I understand that this would bifurcate the stats stage to some degree, as the inclusion or exclusion of roost (I assume it would be roost) would massively shift the overall shape and size of a stat spread. Perhaps it would be prudent to at least put it up to a poll, but I do think that this is unnecessary; a stats stage where we have multiple different options always appeals to me so long as it isn't too all over the place.

Stealth rock should also be optional. I feel that the zeitgeist is on the opposite side here, and fear that rocks will be nixed too early at this point. I think so long as it's included or excluded in a stat spread it will be fine, there is room for variety and debate in the stats stage here also. I think that cap37 should be allowed at most one set of hazards, but I don't feel strongly about this.

Strong dark coverage is definitely the interesting question here. The way I see it, we can either give it crunch/lariat/chop, or we can give it knock, but I don't think it makes much sense to leave this for the stats phase. I personally lean towards giving it knock, I fear this guy not having much to do a little bit and most dark types get knock anyway, but if we don't want it to have knock that should be decided now. The other dark type physical moves that are not utter garbage (e.g. payback or jaw lock) are mostly not amazing for us.

To finish off, I'm curious what kind of coverage people think this should get. In terms of flipping matchups, it really only would want ice or fighting coverage for glisc and gambit. I think it would be fine not getting any notable coverage moves to be honest. The only thing I would be interested in is ground coverage, mostly for tran and to a much lesser extent raging bolt, giving it ice punch or something feels uninspired.

 

[chartung17]

Knock Off should be a defining move; I would put it at optional, but I don't have any strong objections to making it required.

Recovery should be required. Without recovery, it's much harder to justify clicking Beak Blast (as opposed to switching out) when the opponent is clicking Knock Off.

Between Opportunist and the threat of Beak Blast burns, I think we're likely to force a lot of switches; as such, it might be good to have a utility move that can make progress regardless of what the opponent switches to, such as hazards, hazard removal, or pivoting.

If we want coverage rather than utility in the last slot, Ground seems like a good choice. Dark/Flying is pretty good coverage, but there are a few mons that resist both (including three on the CAP VR, namely Kingambit, Tyranitar, and Tinkaton), and all of them are weak to Ground.

 

[Rysachi]

Don't want to ramble on too much with what's already been covered as I'm pretty much in full agreement with Quiz and Chartung that Knock Off and Recover/Roost should be defining or required alongside Taunt being a universal move.

The main thing I do want to bring up as the coverage options as there's two typings that feel like good options that both cover a good handful of mons we currently struggle against.

The first one being ground coverage already mentioned by Chartung for the likes of Garganacl, Tinkaton and Kingambit.

The other coverage option if we want to tap into Opportunist slightly more, especially if we can target Bulk Up targets and still remains useful for the mentioned above as well as Equilibra, is Body Press. This also allows us to possibly focus on the defensive sides of Beak Blast which we can pretty much guarantee it being defining move.

As for hazards, I do believe we should make Stealth Rocks or Spikes optional as they do help round off CAP 37's set if we do want to skip out on giving it coverage. Toxic Spikes is completely anti-synergy and should be avoided.

Another optional I do want to throw out for this mon that saw only small conversation that would fit this really well without technically needing to give the mon hazards strictly is Ceaseless Edge. It is a weaker STAB that would not fully take the focus away from Beak Blast whilst putting on consistent pressure of punishing switches.

 

[Perturbo]

I think quziel's first post perfectly sums up almost everything I wanted to add to this stage. I agree that Roost (I assume) should be mandatory on this pokemon, and heavily in favor of listing Knock Off as a defining move. I'd also like to express support for hazards on CAP 37, whether that be Stealth Rock or Spikes.

I believe Sucker Punch has not been mentioned yet? I'm not in favor of this move, as I think it would dilute CAP 37's identity quite a bit, but I believe it should still be discussed.

 

[staygexxed]

I Agree with most of what has already been said here. I think recovery should be a required move to fit the role that cap 37 wants to play and allow it to take full advantage of beak blast. Knock off is something that I favor heavily a required move. Pivoting imo deserves to have a larger discussion but I do think it should be an optional moveslot.

It could be very interesting to see pivoting on a mon like 37 but I worry about potential stat limitations and potential issues with wanting to click pivoting over beak blast.

Hazards are something that would vastly help improve 37s utility and ability to provide progress against it's counters. I worry they might limit the process later but agree that 37 should have at least one of the hazard moves.

I also wanted to touch upon priority. Personally speaking I think most priority moves interact quite nichely with a mon designed around a negative priority move. It's not something i'm opposed to having as an optional vote but it's certainly not something that needs to be required.

 

[AzothBend]

1. CAP 37’s typing, Dark/Flying, along with the desire to run Beak Blast, semi-locks its moveset. We essentially have two slots to work with. What should be CAP 37’s focus for its remaining move slots? Some categories I’d like to see discussion about are Recovery, Utility, Setup, Coverage, and Priority. Reminder that discussion of specific moves or coverage types is not open yet.

Recovery

Recovery is a big boon for 37 and should be considered; though I'd prefer it to be optional. Knowing any progress made into 37's health is permanent could be useful in facilitating Beak Blast. It may be difficult to strike the right balance in stats, but leaving the possibility open is better than closing it off entirely.

Disruption

Disruption will also be greatly appreciated. 37 already gets Taunt through UAM so no need to really look at other options and weigh penalties; Taunt will suffice.

Hazards

Given our matchup into the metagame's common setters and Beak Blast's ability to punish Rapid Spin, Hazards would suit the 37 well. Some are perhaps a better fit than others, but I'll save specifics until later in this stage.

Pivoting

Beak Blast is likely to force switches. Pivoting moves would then serve 37 well in gaining momentum. With our matchup into common contact punishers, some pivoting moves are preferred over others.

Setup

Opportunist already makes setup a bit awkward, and we probably don't have room for it. But even if we did, Speed boosts are counterintuitive to Beak Blast. Phys. Defense boosts are counterintuitive to Beak Blast. Offensive boosts risk...counterintuitive situations like KO'ing the opponent we just burned with Beak Blast. Best avoided.

Coverage

Dark/Flying is an incredibly potent STAB combination for hitting neutrally into the metagame. And landing big super effective hits isn't really 37's goal anyway. To that end, we will not need other attacking moves and should focus primarily on utility with its remaing two slots.

Priority

There's good interaction with the negative priority of Beak Blast here, potentially allowing for 37 to land two hits before an opponent can move again. One example in particular shines as a pro for our conditional concept.

2. I’m going to immediately break my own rule here and pointedly ask about the move on everyone’s mind: Knock Off. There’s been a lot of dancing around the topic of this move so far this process, and for good reason. It’s a powerful tool, especially on a presumably physical Dark-type. My questions are this: should Knock Off be a defining/required move for CAP 37? How does Knock Off complement Beak Blast? Are there any concerns worth our time with the move?

On its own, Knock Off is a powerful move. When paired with Beak Blast, it gets even better -- punishing switches and removing items from the bulky Rock and Steel types or Fire types that may not fear Beak Blast. If further paired with hazards as is being floated, 37 becomes a fully self contained premier hazard setter, removal denier, and HDB remover. This is an incredibly fruitful path to go down.

Overall, I'm in agreement with most of what's already been said. I do think we all share a pretty cohesive formulation of what 37 will look like at this point. My only caution is that we not get too excited and close off some avenues early. For now, I'm leaning either Knock Off or Recovery as required but not both -- with the other being optional. Those two moves will have the largest impact as we move into stats.

The only other option that holds any weight is hazards. They're great for rounding off 37's kit but I don't know if they're quite required. Metagame already has great setters and ones that partner well with 37. There exists viable paths without them.

 

[Lectrys]

Since we're mentioning hazards, I have to warn that Toxic Spikes is by far the most anti-synergistic hazard to go with the Burn-inflicting Beak Blast, to the point that I'd ban Toxic Spikes from movepools if possible.

 

[Guingil]

Knock Off: After some internal debating, I support Knock Off here. The main worry regarding a move is if it competes with Beak Blast for a click, and Knock Off is the most free click ever in any situation. However, our current assumed kit of Beak Blast and Opportunist is undoubtedly situational, or at least shows its maximum efficiency when opponents play into our condition (by using a contact move while we're in, or a setup move on the switch) rather than around it. I have mentioned before that I think this occurs in the endgame, when opponent resources are depleted enough that they are forced to make concessions. Knock Off is most valuable when it can remove an item early-midgame, with diminishing returns as the game progresses. So, having a general utility at this stage of the game and then naturally transitioning to more Beak-focused strategies later on allows us to always have something to do, without much conflict.

No Knock Off, on the other hand, requires us to justify our general value in some other way. Might require huge stats, and still might not guarantee viability. Knock is simpler. Leaning required, but could be optional with big stats.

Recovery: Feels pretty necessary for us, plus Beak Blast shows maximum value when we are healthy enough to live a hit and hit back. Conversely, we have the free turns to use Recovery with Beak inducing switches. Us possibly taking some hazard damage if we get Knocked ourselves is a big weakness, so this helps ameliorate that to some extent.

No recovery builds could work if we go all-in on maximum impact on a few opportunities, but I'm not it's possible to do that with Opportunist as our ability. Assuming opponents play around Opportunist by not setting up on turns we are likely to switch in to them to copy their boosts, and hitting us with something instead, healing up allows us to play this game again.

Hazards: I agree we'd be a good hazard setter with our matchups into spinners, but my doubts lie with this giving us too many choices. On the turn the threat of Beak induces a switch, would you want to have all 4 moves competing for a click? Alternatively, with our difficulties switching in easily for fear of Knock, SE damage, status which some spinners like Tusk, Snaelstrom, Mollux threaten, do we see us having enough turns to use all 4 moves?

I think we're not as good a preventer of Rapid Spin precisely due to needing to click the hazard button again while being threatened both on the switch, and on the turn we are in, as well as being weak to SR ourselves. Gholdengo in contrast achieves the same outcome (hazards still on field) while minimising risk and having a freer move click. So not a fan, I'd prefer for us to be more streamlined.

Utility: Taunt seems like it's doing enough, and has great synergy with our other options.

Priority: Seems useful and expands the scope of Opportunist punishing to Swords Dance opponents. But I fear it overshadows Beak Blast, because in the endgame, against a physical contact sweeper, say, would you rather kill with priority or take some damage/faint to inflict a Burn? The latter is what I think we've been building up to and suddenly giving us a better option seems like it invalidates some of our previous decisions. Will say more when specific moves are allowed.

A lot of this is informed by the assumption that we build to explore Beak Blast's conditionality, and also that extra options have to be justified by necessity and not simply curiousity. If you disagree with this and think we are, say, exploring conditionality in general, that's very valid as well.​

 

[Robraf]

Recovery
As others have mentioned already, Recovery such as the anticipated Roost heavily facilitates the amount of BBs we are getting out and therefore allows for longevity that is much needed for us to function as a flying type in the metagame. Therefore I‘m also expressing support for Recovery as a required move

Utility
1. Hazards
Since 37 does a really good job against many of the common spinners, being able to reset hazards permanently sounds and seems very strong and it gives 37 a good way to make consistent progress. I‘m personally just afraid that Hazards shift the focus away from BB and give 37 an entire new identity. I see this as optional but definitely a strong contender. As already mentioned Toxic Spikes are entirely anti-synergetic and should be dismissed entirely for defining moves but honestly moves in general.

2. Removal
I‘m only really eyeing Defog here, as 37 has a really good MU into which would otherwise just block Defog. Funnily enough we do quite well into many Hazard Setters, so removal doesn’t even feel off. We saw in a great Removal user in the past.

3. Disruption
I feel like this can be explored a lot yet we shouldn’t lose the focus. I heavily support disruptive Utility that synergizes with BB. Since Taunt is a universally assumed move we already have one of the best disruptive utility moves anyway that can be slotted on most sets.

Pivoting
Frankly I don‘t really like this. I understand that we can force switches and make progress with momentum but firstly we will get Knocked eventually and if that happens we aren‘t really interested in just constantly pivoting around and having to deal with Rocks alll over again. I believe that on an opposing switch out we can generate way better progress such as the already mentioned hazards or even Knock Off (I‘ll get to this at the end of this post). All in all any type of Pivoting is a pass for me.

Setup
Azoth honestly pretty much summed it up for me. It‘s a pass for me here as well

Coverage
Not gonna lie I agree that Dark/Flying most definitely doesn’t need any coverage moves. If its attacking moves would only consist of Dark/Flying/Normal it would very likely still function great. Yet I do think that specifically Fighting coverage is quite interesting over the already mentioned Ground Coverage. Fighting is especially good into and but doesn’t just check everything such as I value how perfectly imperfect Fighting is in this case as it wouldn’t entice us to just drop one of our STAB moves. Ground has way more flawless synergies especially with Flying. Therefore I‘d vouch for Fighting Coverage if anything.

Priority
Looking at most priority moves I wouldn’t really understand most of them. The elephant in the room is obviously Sucker Punch. While I do believe that Sucker is a tempting option here I also feel like it would mislead the future processes into a direction that could likely end up in BB being dropped. I feel like this needs more discussion and I‘m currently torn. Optional for me.



Knock Off
I absolutely see this as a required move. It gives us a great tool in not just progress making by removing Items but it also does significant damage to top it off. It will be our main way in punishing switch outs. If we wouldn’t give it Knock Off I truely believe that 37 would fall to the gutter, as the other Dark Type options are just very underwhelming in what they accomplish. We want to utilize BB a conditional Move alongside Opportunist a conditional ability, therefore we need something in our kit that does actually do something consistently, that 37 can rely on.

 

[dex]

Hello movers.

News first. I am going to classify both Knock Off and 50% Recovery as required moves.

Knock Off very succinctly synergizes with Beak Blast's ability to force switches. It coincides with the "progress-maker" that we've designed so far and feels very necessary as a strong, secondary STAB move for CAP 37 to have access to.

It isn't hard to see why 50% recovery is so good here. More health means more chances to use Beak Blast. It also is an important tool for CAP 37 to keep up with other Flying-types, many of which have access to consistent recovery.

In doing this, we have essentially eaten up 3 of CAP 37's 4 moveslots. Taunt is already a given for CAP 37, as it is a Dark-type, and Taunt has already been discussed as a great tool for CAP 37. I am now opening up discussion around particular moves y'all would like to see listed as Defining Moves. Here are some questions to get started:

1. The go-to 50% recovery move for Flying-types is Roost, but that needn't be the case for CAP 37. Would CAP 37 benefit from having its recovery not take away its Flying type for a turn? Or is Roost a good balancing tool?
2. Hazards have been brought up a few times as a potential progress maker on forced switches. Are hazards worth it? Which ones would CAP 37 benefit the most by having access to?
3. Priority has been mentioned as a means of utilizing Opportunist better. How does priority figure into CAP 37's already packed moveslots? What priority moves would be most effective for it to have access to?
4. CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?
5. Pivoting moves have been talked about here as a means to capitalize on the switches Beak Blast forces. Are pivoting moves still enticing with Knock Off guaranteed? Which ones, yo?
6. Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

 

[Spammernoob]

The go-to 50% recovery move for Flying-types is Roost, but that needn't be the case for CAP 37. Would CAP 37 benefit from having its recovery not take away its Flying type for a turn? Or is Roost a good balancing tool?

I'd argue non-Roost 50% recovery is preferable for CAP37. If we consider the types Roost advantages us over (Rock, Ice, Electric), the common moves of these types are primarily non-contact. However, if we look at the types Roost leaves us vulnerable to (Bug, Ground, Fighting, Grass), there are a lot of notable moves on Pokemon we want to threaten. The biggest worry with Roost is getting hit with Body Press from Skarmory / Corviknight, Pokemon we decided we want to answer in the Threats discussion.

A counterpoint is that Roost incentivizes opponents to click these contact moves, giving more opportunities for Beak Blast to fish burn. I suppose that is a fine argument as well, but I prefer the consistency of non-Roost options (speaking of consistency, Moonlight and Synthesis should not be selected due to their interaction with Slowking-G and Chilly Reception).

Hazards have been brought up a few times as a potential progress maker on forced switches. Are hazards worth it? Which ones would CAP 37 benefit the most by having access to?

Toxic Spikes is somewhat redundant. Stealth Rock and Spikes both seem OK (SR is usually scarier for Fire types), since we can set hazards, knock HDB, and threaten spinners with Beak Blast. However, I'm not actually convinced we need all of this on the same Pokemon. I feel like running hazards as a 4th move (alongside Knock, Beak Blast, Recovery) means we don't actually beat Corviknight either (or at least it Defogs on us for a while before we beat it) so I'm not really convinced about it.

Priority has been mentioned as a means of utilizing Opportunist better. How does priority figure into CAP 37's already packed moveslots? What priority moves would be most effective for it to have access to?

The only slot really is 4th, alongside Beak Blast, Knock Off, and recovery. I don't see any priority as viable besides Sucker Punch, as non-STAB 40BP is simply too weak (we could give this Jet Punch I guess... bricked into Ogerpon-W though). Sucker Punch also has interesting synergy with Beak Blast, where Beak Blast incentivizes killing CAP37 before the negative priority move goes off, while Sucker Punch incentivizes bulk to tank Sucker. This gives CAP37 space to click Beak Blast into frail threats that threaten to KO CAP37 due to the pressure of Sucker, which is cool. It does mean we will get less suicide Beak Blast burns off which... can be a downside? I guess it depends on if you think getting burns is integral to fulfilling the concept of CAP37.

CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?

Encore is an obvious option, as it punishes attempts to set hazards or use recovery in front of CAP37 in a more reactive way than Taunt. Moves like Topsy Turvy or Clear Smog can further cement CAP37 as an anti-setup Pokemon. Cleric moves like Aromatherapy can solidify CAP37's matchup into Kitsunoh/Dragapult, Slowking-G, etc. that aim to beat CAP37 with status.

Pivoting moves have been talked about here as a means to capitalize on the switches Beak Blast forces. Are pivoting moves still enticing with Knock Off guaranteed? Which ones, yo?

CAP37 wants to preserve HP to trade with Beak Blast, so I don't think it is switching in very often. Getting CAP37 in front of a Pokemon it threatens with Beak Blast burn is a payoff, and our STABs are mostly unresisted, so it seems to be a waste to click a pivoting move.

Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

The most interesting coverage moves for CAP37 will be Fighting/Fire/Ground coverage. However, these encroach a bit on the mons we want to check CAP37, so I am not sure if we want to give access to these moves. I also don't really think they contribute much to fulfilling the concept. Ground coverage definitely feels the strongest out of the 3 at a cursory glance.

 

[N-Manifold]

The go-to 50% recovery move for Flying-types is Roost, but that needn't be the case for CAP 37. Would CAP 37 benefit from having its recovery not take away its Flying type for a turn? Or is Roost a good balancing tool?

I really don't like the idea of giving it recover, it kinda feels like pointless micro-optimization when there are vanishingly few flying types that get access to non-roost recovery.

Hazards have been brought up a few times as a potential progress maker on forced switches. Are hazards worth it? Which ones would CAP 37 benefit the most by having access to?

Giving it rocks is very appealing to me, though now that we have recovery and knock we aren't in need of ways to make progress anymore.

Priority has been mentioned as a means of utilizing Opportunist better. How does priority figure into CAP 37's already packed moveslots? What priority moves would be most effective for it to have access to?

The only priority that really makes sense here is sucker punch. I admit that roost/knock/BB/sucker is a cute duelist moveset, but I still personally feel that it not getting sucker punch would be more in line with my vision for what cap37 will end up doing. I don't think it needs to be a defining move. The only other priority worth mentioning is fake out which is more utility, I will mention it shortly.

CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?

I personally think giving it a bunch of good utility is a good idea. Encore was mentioned, but haze, roar, defog, etc are all good options here, I think that we don't have a lot to fear about dropping BB for them. One I want to mention is fake out, a fun fourth move that lets cap37 deal chip or scout a switch. Cap37 already wants to be able to eat hits with its negative priority stab, giving it a safe means to do chip feels pretty fun.

Pivoting moves have been talked about here as a means to capitalize on the switches Beak Blast forces. Are pivoting moves still enticing with Knock Off guaranteed? Which ones, yo?

If we end up slow, slowturn could be very strong especially if we have the ability to force switches. I don't love pivoting, if it is useful then it threatens to become too central to our gameplan, but I somewhat doubt it would end up being useful.

Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

The main coverage move I think looks interesting is body press, which allows us to more consistently pressure Gambit, and ground type coverage, which mostly pressures heatran and iron moth a little extra. I don't think either necessarily needs to be considered for stat limits, I don't really think cap37 should get any good coverage personally, but I don't think coverage is likely to influence what it does very much.

 

[viol and bass]

The go-to 50% recovery move for Flying-types is Roost, but that needn't be the case for CAP 37. Would CAP 37 benefit from having its recovery not take away its Flying type for a turn? Or is Roost a good balancing tool?

Don't think it matters that much honestly. Non-roost is probably strictly speaking better, but Roost can incentivize certain contact moves that we can take advantage of by clicking beak blast instead in a few marginal situations. Personally, Roost feels fine to me.

Hazards have been brought up a few times as a potential progress maker on forced switches. Are hazards worth it? Which ones would CAP 37 benefit the most by having access to?

I think hazards are a nice avenue. Punishing spin is a nice Beak Blast selling point. Rocks make the most sense to me right now since the "switch in on spin -> reset hazards as they switch out -> be forced out" interaction might be somewhat common and you probably get the most out of rocks in that scenario. You're not constantly keeping hazards up, you're just resetting them quite easily, which to me tips the balance in favor of rocks I think. Spikes are probably fine though. Tspikes and webs feel weird. Steelsurge is where its at though tbh

Priority has been mentioned as a means of utilizing Opportunist better. How does priority figure into CAP 37's already packed moveslots? What priority moves would be most effective for it to have access to?

I'm not sure there's room for priority on Roost builds. Could see Sucker as a 4th slot option in some cases but I'm not sold on it being our best option or particularly needed. Beak Blast can function vaguely like priority in certain cases anyway.

CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?

Not sure how viable it is on a Boots mon but Leech Seed is kinda interesting with our typing. Keeps Gliscor/Snael from regenerating health, you punish common Leech Seed switch-ins like Ghold and grasses via your stabs, and Leech has specific synergy with Beak Blast (One form of counterplay to Leech Seed is going out to a slow pivot and pivoting in something offensive that threatens out the Leech Seed user. Beak Blast punishes this with its negative priority hitting the switch-in). It also really appreciates Knock being on the set. Could be interesting, but it's a bit weird with boots and maybe not an amazing move in general so yeah.

Heal Bell is solid, but having both setup and status be largely removed as forms of counterplay to this mon makes me nervous. It's a relatively powerful option even though sacrificing your 4th slot means you're not breaking teams down as quickly and you're playing more of a long game / war of attrition which may not be the build most people are envisioning.

Pivoting moves have been talked about here as a means to capitalize on the switches Beak Blast forces. Are pivoting moves still enticing with Knock Off guaranteed? Which ones, yo?

Not hugely in favor of pivoting moves here. I don't think this mon is that good of a pivot for a few reasons, and Knock + pivoting move disincentivizes the Beak Blast click a bit. There are better ways to use the 4th moveslot for the build we're currently working with. Not worth including to me.

Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

I don't really see any coverage as particularly necessary given our typing, but to me Water has been a bit overlooked, hitting Garg, Gliscor, Libra, Ting-Lu and a few other things. Obviously Garg is on our "checks us" list but I imagine it's not getting broken immediately, it's probably a 2nd or 3rd switch-in thing. Again probably not really needed, this just strikes me as a decent option if we're contemplating coverage.

 

[AzothBend]

1. The go-to 50% recovery move for Flying-types is Roost, but that needn't be the case for CAP 37. Would CAP 37 benefit from having its recovery not take away its Flying type for a turn? Or is Roost a good balancing tool?

Non-Roost would be optimal. One of the reasons we chose Dark/Flying was it's neutrality to common contact moves like CC or U-turn. Forfeiting that with Roost diminishes the number of 'mons we can safely recover in front of. That said...it kind of doesn't matter? These exact same 'mons are prime Beak Blast targets. If we're in a position where 1) we have to click Roost, 2) they're not already burned, and 3) they're willing to risk the burn we've messed up somewhere along the way. Roost is sufficient, but maybe we allow other unconditional recovery with a minor penalty.

2. Hazards have been brought up a few times as a potential progress maker on forced switches. Are hazards worth it? Which ones would CAP 37 benefit the most by having access to?

I already touched on our great potential as a hazard setter in my prior post. It should absolutely be something we consider. Rocks, rocks, rocks are the way. We're going to get much more back against the Fire-types our threat of burns brings in. Spikes are also fine. Ceaseless is probably too much. Toxic Spikes should be avoided for interfering with burn.

3. Priority has been mentioned as a means of utilizing Opportunist better. How does priority figure into CAP 37's already packed moveslots? What priority moves would be most effective for it to have access to?

As mentioned, Negative priority Beak Blast into other priority moves is great for dealing lots of damage in quick succession. The clear standout here is Sucker Punch. It's STAB. It's pro-concept as a conditional move. It doesn't readily compete with Beak Blast thanks to its failure condition. And it extends Opportunist's range to 'mons that favor Swords Dance/Dragon Dance.

4. CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?

Encore is maybe slightly better, but like with Roost, it feels like we're over-optimizing. We have Taunt. Taunt works. If we want to open up the field with some penalty...go for it.

5. Pivoting moves have been talked about here as a means to capitalize on the switches Beak Blast forces. Are pivoting moves still enticing with Knock Off guaranteed? Which ones, yo?

Given that Beak Blast will be likely to bring in contact-punishing 'mons like Zapdos, Moltres, etc. U-turn and its clone are best avoided. Parting Shot could be interesting. It plays into our fantasy of weakening offensive threats and its technically pro-concept as conditional against Magic Bounce. Really though, pivoting could be nice; it probably won't be run over other options discussed, but there's no harm in allowing it.

6. Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

Coverage isn't needed. But if we wanted to give something, Fighting is preferred, with Ground a close second. Only three Pokemon resist Dark/Flying STAB ( , , ) and we're probably not staying in on the latter. Body Press is probably our best candidate for a general use Fighting-type move. As a bonus, it interacts with Opportunist and the rare Iron Defense/Bulk Up user.

Overall, 37 feels fairly straightforward at this point. The suggested moveset is Beak Blast, Knock Off, Recovery, and a fourth flex slot that can be any of Taunt, Sucker Punch, or Stealth Rock depending on the team; maybe Body Press and Parting Shot thrown in there as fourth and fifth flex options if we want to be a little crazy.

 

[spoo]

I’d personally caution against giving out strong Ground and Fighting coverage. This upends our C&C pretty hard, letting CAP 37 plow through Shox and more importantly Garg. Beating our counters is enticing on paper until there are no counters left and we’re in a nerf process 6 months later. Knock and Taunt already mean the Garg matchup is somewhat winnable longterm, and giving extra tools to beat other checks like Shox and bulky Steels is unnecessary for our success, if not outright dangerous. Maybe Body Press would be alright, but anything stronger should just be disallowed. We should stay within the bounds that we set for ourselves in the last stage.

I prefer Roost over other 50% recovery since it’s the standard option for the vast majority of Flying-types; the only Flyings to learn Recover are Ho-Oh, Lugia, Arceus, and Galarian Articuno. I guess you could call that a flavor argument, but only in the same way that disallowing legendary signature moves, having higher standards for normal signature moves, and mandating universally assumed moves are all things we do for “flavor.” We try (for the most part) to have our creations follow similar logic and patterns as real Pokemon, otherwise we are not actually creating a Pokemon at all, and in this instance I think there’s a clear distribution logic that Gamefreak employs. I also appreciate the interactions that Roost has with many of the contact moves we want to bait, and find this to be an interesting and pro-concept feature of the move.

 

[Amamama]

CAP 37’s typing, Dark/Flying, along with the desire to run Beak Blast, semi-locks its moveset. We essentially have two slots to work with. What should be CAP 37’s focus for its remaining move slots? Some categories I’d like to see discussion about are Recovery, Utility, Setup, Coverage, and Priority. Reminder that discussion of specific moves or coverage types is not open yet.

I’ll sort this by priorities 1 (high) to 3 (low)

Dark flying is very self sufficient wrt coverage so additional type coverage is mostly unnecessary or at least very low priority (3)
Set Up doesn’t super gel with Beak blast and what it asks of CAP 37, although there’s synergy with opportunist and could definitely work well on the typing. Still low priority (3)
Priority Moves are interesting especially as interact with beak blasts low prio as it can allow for hitting twice in a row (though with different types). It also adds more threat value to opportunist as it could allow to pick off a sweeper after copying a boost. Obviously Dark has STAB on a very powerful prio move. That said prio moves especially suckerpunch will compete against beak blasts low for clickability (has protential to significantly reduce the amount of times we use Blast) (1,5)
Utility is probably the highest prio, be it utility that creates new opportunities to abuse beak blasts like taunt or hazards or utility that can be used on the free turns we can create. (1)

should Knock Off be a defining/required move for CAP 37? How does Knock Off complement Beak Blast? Are there any concerns worth our time with the move?

Unless there are valid concerns that Knock off is anti concept in which case it should be banned from discussion, Knock off should definitely be a defining move. As currently the goal isn’t to build a moveset but to find the most defining moves for the stat stage there’s no way around knock. Knock if it is allowed will absolutely have a big impact on stats and thus is for sure a defending move at this stage.

Now if it is anti concept I’m unsure. Yes there’s the concern that knock being such an easy click might distract from beak blast as main move but idt there’s ever a world where knock replaces beak blast on a set outright and knock comes with its own limitations especially concerning damage, something that beak blast can provide and both synergies so well offensively as “big damage” progress moves, that it is hard to imagine a more coherent set than these two together.
I also think that Knock off is probably THE most powerful way to abuse the free turns beak blast is supposed to create and perfectly integrates into the gameplan we defined as pro concept, which use the threat of beak blast to create progress on forces switches.

 

[N-Manifold]

Maybe Body Press would be alright, but anything stronger should just be disallowed.

I'm going to strongly second this, I have been running more calcs and our ability to juice the attack stat gets pretty limited if we have ground coverage. Fighting coverage isn't so terrible, especially body press, but I concur and advocate for no notable coverage moves, dark/flying is a good enough STAB pair that cap37 can have buttons to click without coverage moves.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hello! CAP 37 is coming into shape. However, our conversation about role and checks has still left a lot for us to define, and what's more defining than Defining Moves? Nothing, that's what. Let's get to it.

1. CAP 37’s typing, Dark/Flying, along with the desire to run Beak Blast, semi-locks its moveset. We essentially have two slots to work with. What should be CAP 37’s focus for its remaining move slots? Some categories I’d like to see discussion about are Recovery, Utility, Setup, Coverage, and Priority. Reminder that discussion of specific moves or coverage types is not open yet.
2. I’m going to immediately break my own rule here and pointedly ask about the move on everyone’s mind: Knock Off. There’s been a lot of dancing around the topic of this move so far this process, and for good reason. It’s a powerful tool, especially on a presumably physical Dark-type. My questions are this: should Knock Off be a defining/required move for CAP 37? How does Knock Off complement Beak Blast? Are there any concerns worth our time with the move?

right. so here's my takes:

• recovery - this is a necessity on the mon. we want to be able to survive in the long term to get the most use out of beak blast, and recovery is by far the easiest way to do that. making this mon work without recovery would be very difficult and would probably result in it being pigeonholed into wish structures
• utility - very nice thing to have, and should probably be the main focus outside of stab. beak blast and a lot of dark moves are also good for utility, so extra utility moves would nicely lean into us being a utility-focused mon with good damage output
• setup - unnecessary. i think opportunist gives us enough chances to boost our stats as it is and we can operate perfectly fine without needing to be a big setup wincon
• coverage - honestly i think we can do without it. dark/flying stab is very good on its own and we do ideally want to have things that answer us.
• priority - i think priority would be nice and the one-two punch of beak blast negative priority into positive priority is very strong, but i don't really see our guy having much room to fit it. our bread and butter is very likely going to be stab + recovery + flex slot and i think something in the realm of utility would do much more for us in that flex slot. besides that, the only form of priority i could see it reasonably getting is one that discourages attacking, and while it can fit in the dark stab slot instead of the flex slot, it's also not something you want to be your only dark stab. that said, i don't think putting priority in its movepool would actively harm the mon or process in any way so i don't see much reason why not
• knock off - i honestly don't have much skin in this race. i can see the obvious upsides to having knock, it compresses reliable stab and a great progress-making tool and synergizes well with every utility move under the sun, but i could also see 37, and the process, working perfectly well without it. i'll leave this one up to the better judgment of my more experienced peers

 

[kenn]

Time to answer some questions! :muscle:

The go-to 50% recovery move for Flying-types is Roost, but that needn't be the case for CAP 37. Would CAP 37 benefit from having its recovery not take away its Flying type for a turn? Or is Roost a good balancing tool?

37 with Roost can be "checked" by the fact that it loses its Flying-type via Roost and have to take supereffective damage from U-turn or Close Combat (among other Bug/Fighting moves) while losing its Ground immunity, which may incite more contact moves to potentially spread burns via Beak Blast, but I believe this could be more or a Ho-Oh situation where we can leverage not just our bulk, but the aforementioned immunity plus the neutralities Flying-type provides coupled with Dark-type, to Bug and Fighting, to pressure the Pokemon we want to face, especially since we already deter contact moves being used by foes that fear the potential burn. Both are valid routes, but I think we have enough "conditional" situations with Opportunist + Beak Blast's burn that having that "set in stone" can make 37 more effective at checking what it needs (U-turn users and Revenankh) and lose to what it needs to (Shox and Garg).

Hazards have been brought up a few times as a potential progress maker on forced switches. Are hazards worth it? Which ones would CAP 37 benefit the most by having access to?

I think entry hazards are more of a distraction/afterthought imo strictly because, while they could work, 37 is pressed for moveslots with Knock and 50% recovery being required alongside Beak Blast and therefore I believe the 4th move is better off with other options to where something like Stealth Rock can be a viable option once the movepool stage comes around, but isn't necessarily needed to be on the defining moves list.

Priority has been mentioned as a means of utilizing Opportunist better. How does priority figure into CAP 37's already packed moveslots? What priority moves would be most effective for it to have access to?

This is a perfect example of an optional move because it would allow more freedom within the stat stages of this process and potentially come with a penalty if a stat submission goes for it, but it can easily be opted out of and still have a good statline for 37. More offensively inclined submissions might go for Sucker Punch as a 4th move to allow 37 the ability to circumvent the fact Beak Blast has negative priority while more bulkier submissions are not gonna care about the move as the utility is more important for that flex slot.

CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?

I think some deadly options like Encore could be interesting especially if we wanna punish setup sweepers even further, but with Opportunist and Taunt I think we do enough to where other utility moves aren't necessary but could be optional lol.

Pivoting moves have been talked about here as a means to capitalize on the switches Beak Blast forces. Are pivoting moves still enticing with Knock Off guaranteed? Which ones, yo?

I think with Knock Off required, the only pivot move that interests me is Parting Shot to allow 37 to bring in things that appreciate the -1/-1 to the foe, but honestly pivoting in and of itself is not the focus of 37 and shouldn't be "a given" as the other pivot moves make contact and are therefore making 37 liable to being fished on for burns or paralysis. I am ambivalent on the inclusion unless it is Parting Shot which I am not dead set on but like more than the others.

Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

I am throwing support for Body Press as it can be a neat (maybe niche) option that pairs well with both of our STABs, but overall I think coverage is unnecessary as Dark/Flying is really good STAB coverage itself and 37 feels like it wants to lean into abusing that or by opting for utility moves to achieve the use of Beak Blast/its kit as a whole.

 

[Robraf]

Coverage has gone by the wayside a bit in this conversation, but I still feel it is worth discussing if CAP 37 should have any defining coverage options. Are there any moves in particular that jump out as things to consider for stat limits?

Regarding Coverage, one move striked me as very much pro-concept with Focus Punch.
This move not only inherently synergizes with BB as it heavily incentivizes Attacking into us it also makes switch ins such as and or the likes of significantly more awkward. Additionally with a Set like Roost/Knock/BB/Focus Punch 37 would beat something like as it can’t Roost against a potential Focus Punch. Idk if this is a move that needs to be considered for Stats limit as I‘m unaware how it really changes things but I‘d love to see this move be considered. I do believe tho that adding another conditional move to the already existing BB is very likely not gonna make it as defining moves. So maybe this is more something for a later addition if anything


Regarding the other points I already talked about most of them in my previous post.

Regarding the Roost vs Recover case I personally feel indifferent about it. I wouldn’t even mind having the option of playing both. Roost can have specific better usecases for a Team than Recover tho like Recover will just be slotted way more than Roost.

 

[Guingil]

[Setup questions] + CAP 37 already has innate access to Taunt. Are there any other utility moves that could be useful for it to have access to?​

Oh what the hell, I'll bring up Swagger and Spicy Extract as pseudo-setup options for the fourth slot after Knock/Beak Blast/Recovery. I dislike Swords Dance's unconditional setting up for 37, as it does not interact in any way with the rest of our kit, but both these moves are options that work weirdly well precisely because we have the combination of Beak Blast and Opportunist.

On the assumption that Beak Blast is going to induce switches against the physically-based Pokémon that we check, we have either fat, specially based Pokémon coming into us on the switch, or stuff like Gliscor/Garganacl/Tyranitar. If it is the special mons, we get a downside-free boost to our offenses and increase our ability to make progress into them, or at least trade into them better. Even if we switch out immediately, we leave a confusion chance or a -2 defense on the opponent that might help our teammates. The threat of the other type of switch-in, however, does not make these moves entirely risk-free either, especially considering our most powerful move has negative priority, and we are getting hit before we can hit back. In practice, I also imagine there being scenarios in which the best move for our opponents might be to stay in and attack us with a contact move, which, of course, helps achieve Beak Blast's Burn conditional effect (sort of like Stakeout, but with more counterplay available to opponents).

The uncompetitive aspects of Swagger do give me pause, as even though we are not entirely relying on the confusion effect, the 85% accurate setup brings chance into this equation. Spicy Extract does not miss, but balancing it seems like a daunting task. So I guess stats would be meaningfully changed with consideration of these moves, and can't be slapped on a build balanced around other things, so they do count for this discussion of Defining Moves?

Another reason I think these are interesting is that they provide us a way to make offensive progress, and with Roost/Knock/Beak Blast we are already leaning pretty heavily into our utility-defensive strengths, so the fourth option giving us an alternative (especially in contrast to the more generally useful, universally-assumed Taunt) might open up interesting paths.​