Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 16: BIRDS OF A FEATHER | Espathra Suspect Test

Yoda2798

Blood on the Clocktower is the best
is a Community Leaderis a Top Community Contributoris a Top Metagame Resource Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Doubles Leader
Birds of a feather, we should stick together, I know
I said I'd never think I wasn't better alone
Can't change the weather, might not be forever
But if it's forever, it's even better

:sv/espathra:

Following its rise in usage and performance in recent tours, the DOU Council has decided Espathra is deserving of a suspect test!

Despite a rather subpar statline, Espathra fulfills a unique role due to its combination of Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and Baton Pass. This allows Espathra to pass boosts in Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed (along with optionally Defense if using Grassy Seed with Rillaboom) to a teammate such as Gholdengo or Primarina to benefit from. While Baton Pass strategies are typically lackluster in doubles from being too slow and exploitable, Espathra however is quite effective, requiring only a turn or two to set up for it to achieve a threatening number of boosts.

Espathra is deceptively bulky, as Speed Boost allows it to invest heavily in bulk, while still moving before opponents to reduce incoming damage with Calm Mind, or Baton Pass before being targeted. Meanwhile, the aforementioned option of Grassy Seed with Rillaboom softens physical blows, with Intimidate from Incineroar also providing defensive cover. Both these teammates also importantly provide Fake Out, helping to safely create the one turn Espathra needs to start snowballing. Together, the two can even cycle Fake Out by switching between each other while Espathra Protects. Stored Power provides another angle to Espathra besides Baton Pass, as after boosts begin to rack up, Stored Power and therefore Espathra itself quickly becomes a threat on its own. Gholdengo is probably the strongest beneficiary of Baton Pass, as a strong spread special attacker immune to Fake Out and phazing, but other special attackers such as Primarina, Raging Bolt, or more, can also take advantage of Espathra's boosts.

As a Pokemon reliant on boosts, either for its own benefit or for a teammate, Espathra struggles if prevented from being able to set up successfully. With Espathra teams typically being built around supporting and benefitting from it, neutralising Espathra will usually also cripple the team as a whole. Calm Mind provides reliable damage mitigation on the special side, but Espathra's physical side is more vulnerable, particularly if not running Grassy Seed. Pokemon like Chien-Pao, Incineroar, and Roaring Moon all threaten serious damage against Espathra with their STAB attacks while being naturally immune to Stored Power, with Roaring Moon also outspeeding +1 Espathra and having Tailwind to outspeed it beyond that. Espathra's reliance on Fake Out support means Pokemon immune to it can cause problems; Gholdengo can set up itself or threaten with a super effective Shadow Ball, Dragonite can use Extreme Speed to hit Espathra before it uses Baton Pass no matter how high its Speed is, or (Covert Cloak) Tornadus can impair Espathra with a Prankster Taunt. Phazing such as Whirlwind from Ting-Lu can force out Espathra or a non-Gholdengo beneficiary and remove their boosts. One last option to deal with Espathra is Trick Room, turning its Speed boosts against it and allowing practically any Pokemon to move before it or the Pokemon it Baton Passes into.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Espathra.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2980 (using a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this).
The suspect laddering period will begin <t:1774656000:F> and the deadline for getting requirements is <t:1775433600:F>.

Additionally there will be 2 live suspect tournaments in the Smogon Doubles Showdown room. The winner of each of these tournaments will qualify for suspect voting, and should reach out to me, or another member of staff so we can verify and add them to the voting pool.

Suspect Tournament Times
<t:1774713600:F>
<t:1774814400:F>

Espathra will be legal during this suspect.
 
Last edited:
The laddering period has now begun, please follow the instructions in the OP for using the new system.

Once qualified, please make sure your name appears here.
 
To the uninitiated, the choice to suspect Espathra may seem random, brash, or unnecessary. However Espathra's had this day coming for a long time, having caused a decent amount of trouble in the tier for two years now and obviously completely breaking singles formats since the start of the generation. The bird has always been lurking in the background, an ever-present threat to the metagame that has recently seen enough usage to warrant this:

Espathra usage stats through the year in OSDT, Derby, Teamballo, EPL and Ladder Tour
| 44 | Espathra | 55 | 2.65% | 61.82% |
OSDT Alone
| 42 | Espathra | 50 | 2.65% | 60.00% |
+ ---- + --------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + --------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 749 | 36.08% | 49.13% |
| 2 | Incineroar | 696 | 33.53% | 52.44% |
| 3 | Gholdengo | 625 | 30.11% | 51.52% |
| 4 | Landorus | 610 | 29.38% | 48.52% |
| 5 | Rillaboom | 545 | 26.25% | 52.48% |
| 6 | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 463 | 22.30% | 49.68% |
| 7 | Chien-Pao | 449 | 21.63% | 51.00% |
| 8 | Roaring Moon | 440 | 21.19% | 48.41% |
| 9 | Sinistcha | 402 | 19.36% | 54.48% |
| 10 | Tornadus | 388 | 18.69% | 44.59% |
| 11 | Kyurem | 376 | 18.11% | 54.52% |
| 12 | Iron Hands | 359 | 17.29% | 49.58% |
| 13 | Raging Bolt | 325 | 15.66% | 48.31% |
| 14 | Diancie | 304 | 14.64% | 51.97% |
| 15 | Ninetales-Alola | 299 | 14.40% | 54.52% |
| 16 | Okidogi | 298 | 14.35% | 56.38% |
| 17 | Glimmora | 290 | 13.97% | 54.48% |
| 18 | Ursaluna | 262 | 12.62% | 48.85% |
| 19 | Dragonite | 256 | 12.33% | 54.30% |
| 20 | Ting-Lu | 248 | 11.95% | 58.06% |
| 21 | Gouging Fire | 247 | 11.90% | 56.28% |
| 22 | Indeedee-F | 225 | 10.84% | 45.33% |
| 23 | Chi-Yu | 216 | 10.40% | 45.83% |
| 24 | Moltres-Galar | 198 | 9.54% | 58.59% |
| 25 | Torkoal | 184 | 8.86% | 47.28% |
| 26 | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 171 | 8.24% | 47.95% |
| 27 | Amoonguss | 142 | 6.84% | 41.55% |
| 28 | Farigiraf | 130 | 6.26% | 49.23% |
| 29 | Iron Crown | 126 | 6.07% | 42.06% |
| 30 | Grimmsnarl | 106 | 5.11% | 58.49% |
| 31 | Cresselia | 105 | 5.06% | 52.38% |
| 32 | Regidrago | 105 | 5.06% | 47.62% |
| 33 | Primarina | 94 | 4.53% | 57.45% |
| 34 | Kingambit | 94 | 4.53% | 37.23% |
| 35 | Landorus-Therian | 93 | 4.48% | 52.69% |
| 36 | Bronzong | 77 | 3.71% | 41.56% |
| 37 | Sneasler | 77 | 3.71% | 48.05% |
| 38 | Walking Wake | 70 | 3.37% | 40.00% |
| 39 | Hatterene | 69 | 3.32% | 53.62% |
| 40 | Volcanion | 59 | 2.84% | 45.76% |
| 41 | Volcarona | 58 | 2.79% | 50.00% |
| 42 | Tyranitar | 57 | 2.75% | 47.37% |
| 43 | Hoopa-Unbound | 56 | 2.70% | 51.79% |
| 44 | Espathra | 55 | 2.65% | 61.82% |
| 45 | Heatran | 54 | 2.60% | 46.30% |
| 46 | Whimsicott | 51 | 2.46% | 49.02% |
| 47 | Sinistcha-Masterpiece | 51 | 2.46% | 52.94% |
| 48 | Mew | 41 | 1.97% | 48.78% |
| 49 | Spectrier | 40 | 1.93% | 55.00% |
| 50 | Zapdos-Galar | 39 | 1.88% | 51.28% |
| 51 | Lilligant-Hisui | 33 | 1.59% | 48.48% |
| 52 | Baxcalibur | 33 | 1.59% | 57.58% |
| 53 | Ogerpon-Cornerstone | 32 | 1.54% | 46.88% |
| 54 | Excadrill | 32 | 1.54% | 46.88% |
| 55 | Smeargle | 31 | 1.49% | 48.39% |
| 56 | Porygon2 | 29 | 1.40% | 37.93% |
| 57 | Pelipper | 25 | 1.20% | 44.00% |
| 58 | Houndstone | 23 | 1.11% | 52.17% |
| 59 | Clefairy | 22 | 1.06% | 40.91% |
| 60 | Orthworm | 22 | 1.06% | 50.00% |
| 61 | Sylveon | 21 | 1.01% | 42.86% |
| 62 | Iron Valiant | 20 | 0.96% | 45.00% |
| 63 | Manaphy | 19 | 0.92% | 52.63% |
| 64 | Pecharunt | 19 | 0.92% | 52.63% |
| 65 | Basculegion-F | 19 | 0.92% | 42.11% |
| 66 | Comfey | 17 | 0.82% | 41.18% |
| 67 | Latios | 17 | 0.82% | 35.29% |
| 68 | Entei | 17 | 0.82% | 52.94% |
| 69 | Cinderace | 15 | 0.72% | 60.00% |
| 70 | Kommo-o | 15 | 0.72% | 40.00% |
| 71 | Metagross | 14 | 0.67% | 28.57% |
| 72 | Arcanine-Hisui | 14 | 0.67% | 57.14% |
| 73 | Sableye | 13 | 0.63% | 46.15% |
| 74 | Chandelure | 13 | 0.63% | 38.46% |
| 75 | Araquanid | 13 | 0.63% | 46.15% |
| 76 | Armarouge | 12 | 0.58% | 41.67% |
| 77 | Deoxys-Speed | 12 | 0.58% | 50.00% |
| 78 | Dondozo | 11 | 0.53% | 27.27% |
| 79 | Scrafty | 11 | 0.53% | 63.64% |
| 80 | Dragapult | 11 | 0.53% | 18.18% |
| 81 | Iron Bundle | 10 | 0.48% | 30.00% |
| 82 | Kingdra | 10 | 0.48% | 30.00% |
| 83 | Indeedee | 10 | 0.48% | 30.00% |
| 84 | Garganacl | 10 | 0.48% | 50.00% |
| 85 | Suicune | 9 | 0.43% | 33.33% |
| 86 | Dudunsparce | 9 | 0.43% | 55.56% |
| 87 | Donphan | 9 | 0.43% | 55.56% |
| 88 | Brute Bonnet | 9 | 0.43% | 22.22% |
| 89 | Scizor | 9 | 0.43% | 33.33% |
| 90 | Corviknight | 8 | 0.39% | 12.50% |
| 91 | Scream Tail | 8 | 0.39% | 25.00% |
| 92 | Registeel | 7 | 0.34% | 85.71% |
| 93 | Garchomp | 7 | 0.34% | 42.86% |
| 94 | Iron Boulder | 7 | 0.34% | 57.14% |
| 95 | Meowscarada | 7 | 0.34% | 28.57% |
| 96 | Murkrow | 6 | 0.29% | 16.67% |
| 97 | Kleavor | 6 | 0.29% | 50.00% |
| 98 | Magmar | 6 | 0.29% | 33.33% |
| 99 | Enamorus | 6 | 0.29% | 33.33% |
| 100 | Empoleon | 6 | 0.29% | 83.33% |
| 101 | Latias | 6 | 0.29% | 0.00% |
| 102 | Tsareena | 6 | 0.29% | 16.67% |
| 103 | Keldeo-Resolute | 5 | 0.24% | 40.00% |
| 104 | Milotic | 5 | 0.24% | 40.00% |
| 105 | Necrozma | 5 | 0.24% | 20.00% |
| 106 | Snorlax | 5 | 0.24% | 80.00% |
| 107 | Wo-Chien | 5 | 0.24% | 40.00% |
| 108 | Palafin | 5 | 0.24% | 40.00% |
| 109 | Weezing | 5 | 0.24% | 0.00% |
| 110 | Ninetales | 5 | 0.24% | 40.00% |
| 111 | Deoxys | 4 | 0.19% | 25.00% |
| 112 | Enamorus-Therian | 4 | 0.19% | 0.00% |
| 113 | Skeledirge | 4 | 0.19% | 25.00% |
| 114 | Gallade | 4 | 0.19% | 25.00% |
| 115 | Maushold-Four | 4 | 0.19% | 50.00% |
| 116 | Abomasnow | 4 | 0.19% | 0.00% |
| 117 | Ribombee | 4 | 0.19% | 100.00% |
| 118 | Regigigas | 4 | 0.19% | 0.00% |
| 119 | Krookodile | 4 | 0.19% | 50.00% |
| 120 | Muk-Alola | 4 | 0.19% | 0.00% |
| 121 | Toedscruel | 4 | 0.19% | 25.00% |
| 122 | Azumarill | 4 | 0.19% | 25.00% |
| 123 | Clefable | 4 | 0.19% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Weezing-Galar | 3 | 0.14% | 0.00% |
| 125 | Sudowoodo | 3 | 0.14% | 66.67% |
| 126 | Sneasel-Hisui | 3 | 0.14% | 33.33% |
| 127 | Primeape | 3 | 0.14% | 33.33% |
| 128 | Talonflame | 3 | 0.14% | 0.00% |
| 129 | Rotom-Wash | 3 | 0.14% | 33.33% |
| 130 | Gardevoir | 3 | 0.14% | 33.33% |
| 131 | Hitmontop | 3 | 0.14% | 66.67% |
| 132 | Venusaur | 3 | 0.14% | 66.67% |
| 133 | Glastrier | 3 | 0.14% | 33.33% |
| 134 | Fezandipiti | 3 | 0.14% | 66.67% |
| 135 | Toxapex | 2 | 0.10% | 100.00% |
| 136 | Golurk | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 137 | Persian-Alola | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 138 | Hydrapple | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 139 | Stonjourner | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 140 | Shaymin-Sky | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 141 | Rhyperior | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 142 | Lurantis | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 143 | Politoed | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 144 | Great Tusk | 2 | 0.10% | 100.00% |
| 145 | Regieleki | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 146 | Zarude | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 147 | Charizard | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 148 | Mudsdale | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 149 | Whiscash | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 150 | Typhlosion-Hisui | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 151 | Slowking-Galar | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 152 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 153 | Raichu | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 154 | Oranguru | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 155 | Meloetta | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 156 | Blaziken | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 157 | Conkeldurr | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 158 | Malamar | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 159 | Terrakion | 2 | 0.10% | 50.00% |
| 160 | Lucario | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 161 | Goodra-Hisui | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 162 | Arboliva | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 163 | Articuno-Galar | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 164 | Zoroark-Hisui | 2 | 0.10% | 0.00% |
| 165 | Chansey | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 166 | Ogerpon | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 167 | Umbreon | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 168 | Tornadus-Therian | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 169 | Zarude-Dada | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 170 | Zapdos | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 171 | Flamigo | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 172 | Sceptile | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 173 | Duraludon | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 174 | Iron Jugulis | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 175 | Qwilfish-Hisui | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 176 | Tinkaton | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 177 | Klefki | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 178 | Morgrem | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 179 | Jumpluff | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 180 | Barraskewda | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 181 | Gyarados | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 182 | Bellossom | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 183 | Exeggutor | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 184 | Scovillain | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 185 | Maushold | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 186 | Gengar | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 187 | Jolteon | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 188 | Vikavolt | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 189 | Electrode | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 190 | Delphox | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 191 | Serperior | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 192 | Bruxish | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 193 | Thundurus-Therian | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 194 | Dugtrio | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 195 | Thundurus | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 196 | Arcanine | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 197 | Charjabug | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 198 | Vivillon-Fancy | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 199 | Espeon | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 200 | Raikou | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |
| 201 | Ceruledge | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 202 | Haxorus | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 203 | Forretress | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 204 | Swalot | 1 | 0.05% | 0.00% |
| 205 | Medicham | 1 | 0.05% | 100.00% |

These numbers might seem low but considering that Espathra has the highest winrate of any pokemon with significant usage this year and its nature as a matchup fish/cheese strategy I think we can lay the bird to rest and doing so would improve the metagame immediately. But allow me to recall this demonic bird's history in the tier, how I unearthed it and why it took so long for it to become a serious problem. Or, rather, recall how Espathra has always been ban-worthy, and has simply slipped under our noses while greater metagame developments took place.


Origins

:espathra: - :archaludon: - :landorus: - :rillaboom: - :incineroar: - :politoed:
DPL X was my first real teamtour, being a lowly 3k slot on Akaru and SMB's ducks team. I was hungry to prove my potential, and looked everywhere for potential ways to innovate in the format. Archaludon was clearly broken to me but very unsolved in the early DLC metagame, a little too slot and a little to vulnerable on the special side. Developments in the singles metagames still had a decent hold on me, and I remembered the very brief era of OU featuring Espathra setup teams, and found it was an easy way to fix Archaludon's only exploitable flaws. The team made it's debut against a very unfortunate Val16 after never losing a test game, and Espathra was officially introduced to DOU. This team saw a few more games in that DPL and a few games in other tours such as OSDT and PSPL and was solidly successful, eventually prompting the first suspect of Archaludon after it and other cheese teams flooded ladder for a bit. This Espathra structure was commonly cited in that suspect thread as the main pain point for players in respect to Archaludon. Well this team was built by a low elo noob who'd barely managed to go even in sv slot 3 of DPL so it wasn't as optimized as it could have been and Archaludon failed to get banned, with few top players beign interested in optimizing Espathra out in favor of optimizing pao offense in SCL or Arch-sini later that year. However the groundwork had been laid, and for the next year Espathra would continue to make dotted appearances in tournament and ladder games while the tier's top brass worked on solving pao, ting-lu, snow and archaludon compositions. A variant with sylveon was developed and used by a few players in this time period, but it never caught on too hard due to not being as oppressive as Archaludon.


Resurgence
2024 came and went and 2025 was on the closing end and Espathra had only seen a couple dozen games through that time since the first archaludon suspect and usage of Espathra teams died down. With myself not wanting to devote time to optimizing its structures rather than growing more generally strong in the builder/in battle and most others not being interested in running cheese strategies Espathra fell by the wayside for a bit. But eventually the bird did battle once more, under sealife's wing in 2025's last chance tour, earning a few notable wins
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2472737228-253ffvtujrin245bu12mgc71rntu66ipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2472735324-up3ilmt971t1csm45qk8eb2gpywxf1jpw

Sealife would also spread Espathra to natdex alongside Astro Nation Shoe during the concurrently running natdex ladder tour, where I also contributed to the fray of Espathra teams that would lead to a swift and popular quickban in that tier after just a couple months of passing boosts to Mega-Gardevoir. This paled in comparison to the stage Nails was about to put Espathra on, however.


SCL V brought many surprises and among them was the big dumb bird making the biggest stage DOU has to offer. This game wasn't really close and set off alarm bells for a lot of people, such an egregious cheesing happening in a tour of this calibre by a pokemon long known to be problematic was unacceptable, bringing us to now. In the time since this game Espathra has exploded into its own archetype with a littany of support pieces and pass targets all boasting different counterplay and checks. Espathra has become the highest winrate pokemon of anything with more than 1% userate in tour play in 2026. It has continued to seep into the tier and win games , even when it has no right winning them against players that theoretically are prepared for it. To illustrate this, let's look at some replays where Espathra looks too strong.

:espathra: :ting-lu: Luisin vs Akaru :ursaluna-bloodmoon: :sableye:
Espathra faces off against lostbox sun, a mix of Hyper Offense and setup and simply beats down on it with utility + damage mitigation

:espathra: :ting-lu: Luisin vs Repeat :ting-lu: :glimmora:
Repeat tries to call that Ting-Lu will deter Espathra lead and gets it wrong, Incineroar prevents Ting-Lu from resetting the baton pass setup and wins before repeat gets to set up any of his gameplan.

:espathra: :landorus: Ratpacker vs Troutinspace :ting-lu: :mew:
Trout tries to lead Ting Lu into Espathra, gets immediately forced out by Rilla + Landorus and Espathra gets in freely and passes out before Ting-Lu has a chance to phase/damage it and Gholdengo Sweeps

:espathra: :primarina: One of many Zee Espathra paste OSDT Replays :ogerpon-hearthflame: :incineroar:
Notable because Gholdengo got passed to, died, and Espathra swept with its own boosts on second entry anyways. Good showcase of the style's resilience by virtue of having such solid and basic supporting pieces.

:Espathra: :primarina: Lucky-sama vs Schister :chi-yu: :cresselia:
Self-malding, couldn't out-dps the espathra with Chi-Yu, lost rapidly.

:espathra: :raging bolt: Tenzai vs Repeatt :diancie: :iron hands:
Repeat tries to set early trick room to out-offense the Espathra setup but taunt on Incineroar shuts it down and puts him too far behind. Boosted bolt stat-checks Lando-I. one wrong turn and the game is over.

:espathra: :kommo-o: AIRedzone vs Yoda2798 :grimmsnarl: :glimmora:
Redzone opts out of espathra lead and supports his gholdengo with just the baseline support of the team, leaving the bird to come in later and clean the game out after sufficient progress is made.

:espathra: :kommo-o: Schister vs Pigwarrior :zapdos-galar: :dragonite:
Espathra gets forced out early by overwhelming pressure from zapdos-dragonite but manages to find space to get back onto the field mid-game and gets a successful pass off to Kommo-O, showcasing the flexibility of gameplans the structure has.​

1774678467902.png
1774678656331.png

It is exceedingly clear to me that Espathra, while having a common gameplan among all variants, is not linear and is flexible and resilient against common counterplay. It only takes 1 or 2 turns to get in and scale out of control and this can happen at any stage of the game. Still, it's not invincible, often KOed or forced out through various means but it is so straining and varied that I have to encourage voting ban. A lot of the high-level games where the bird loses are often due to misplaned gameplay or surprise factors that out-cheese the Espathra as well, further showcasing the degenerative effect this pokemon has on gameplay in this tier.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2565633457 - Smeargle + chi-yu out-offenses/sets up the espathra. Cheese-off
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-912645 Espathra doesn't get led and genies make too much early progress
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-920670 Espathra gets caught by a surprise tera blast from opposing setup
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-920438 Opposing volcarona applies more immediate pressure vs team that didn't lead espathra
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2564880027-0evue2cbpxgawh64epl5ihixuf6mf1opw How.

As the person who first unleashed Espathra on the tier, it's time to leave it behind and push the tier towards more honest and skillful gameplay. The only people who benefit from Espathra being in the tier are the lucky souls that land games where they can cheese strogner opponents who weren't prepared enough for being hyper-cheesed. Everyone else gains nothing from reducing the tier to this support slop archetype , and it certainly doesn't leave a good impression to prospective new players of the format. Please vote ban, free me of this sin.
 
Last edited:
qualified instead of having dinner ggs, been playing more DOU because of OSDT and I gotta say I hate this emu and the playstyle it represents with the passion of a hundred suns. boost spams are always a little bit degenerate, but the synergy Espathra gets for free with Rilla and the speed with which it snowballs out of control is overwhelming for many teamstyles to deal with reasonably, as was seen in the Madara vs Nails replay. Similarly snowbally threats like Archaludon which were determined to be too much for the tier still didn't get the opportunities to just start setting up at a moment's notice the way Espathra does. I'll be voting ban on the bird, and good riddance.
 
:espathra: Some Thoughts on Espathra :espathra:

I am not voting in this suspect. I have no dog in this race, and I do not think it's fair for me to skew the vote in either direction when it doesn't and will never affect me. That being said, I went through the trouble of getting reqs anyway, hoping to play against some Espathra players and get a better idea of how it feels to both use and to play. I plan to do this multiple times to get the best picture of this Pokémon's matchups as possible, but despite only having completed 1 out of my 3 planned runs I've decided to just write this now, as I feel like I've seen enough and my opinion won't be drastically changed by my later runs (I will still finish them and will edit this post if I find something worth adding to this conversation).

My stance on Espathra

Do I think Espathra WILL be banned? Yes. Espathra teams are pure unapologetic cheese, and because people view it as something cheesy that takes no skill to win with it feels better to just remove it instead of building teams playing in a way that better deals with it. Regardless of whether or not Espathra is broken, it is annoying, which in a suspect test is even worse than being broken. Something can be overtuned but have interesting counterplay and skill expression that makes people want to keep it around, but if a Pokemon is annoying? Even if better teams or plays could be made to deal with it, people simply don't WANT to learn the matchup because it's not fun. I'm not going to make any comment on whether or not this is a good way to go about voting, this is a children's video game and the primary objective is to have fun + like I said earlier in the post I don't care either way, but it's something to keep in mind.

Do I think Espathra SHOULD be banned? Now this is a much more interesting question, and to answer it I'm going to talk about Polteageist.

:mr mime: :polteageist: :latias: :indeedee-f: :heatran: :necrozma:
The closest thing I can think to relate Espathra to is Shell Smash Polteageist guy from last generation's ladder. This team is something that's stuck in my memory for a long time because of how deceptively difficult it is to play into it. Back in Kartana meta there was a particular ladder player who I'm going to call Polteageist Guy because I can't remember his name and all the replays of this team were purged. The team uses Mr. Mime's specific role compression of having all of Fake Out, Follow Me and Wide Guard to enable Polteageist to get off a Shell Smash and either Stored Power through your entire team or pass those boosts to an Expanding Force Necrozma or Eruption Heatran in the back. This looks like a shittily build gimmick team you would see on 1100 on the ladder, but because of how deceptively flexible the team's game plans were and the fact that the person playing it was a relatively solid player by ladder standards, they ended up staying relatively high on the ladder. While there obviously is counterplay in the form of moves like Haze, Roar/Dragon Tail Dark-types, Prankster Encore + another terrain, and so on, these were really uncommon and hard to fit on teams during this specific era of SS (Late Kartana meta), forcing you to learn how to outplay with the tools you have in order to win games.

Now you may be wondering what this has to do with Espathra, and the point I'm trying to get at is that when I look at and play against Espathra teams I see a lot of parellels between it and the cheese strats you would come across last gen... and the gen before that.... and the gen before that. Baton Pass and Stored Power combined with Fake Out and Follow Me support allow Espathra to have flexibility in it's lines depending on what its fighting. There is counterplay like Covert Cloak in combination with Roar and Taunt, opposing setup, Dragonite, and so on, but these options seem to either be things that are either hard to fit in SV or require much more finesse to use against a good Espathra player than the user would originally think. My question is really just what separates Espathra from every cheese strat that has literally ever existed, both in this generation and past ones?

All of the things I've seen commonly cited as reasons Espathra is broken either actually have nothing to do with Espathra specifically, but rather the Pokemon around it, or can be said about any cheese strategy thats existed in past generations:
"Espathra passing to Gholdengo and being supported by strong supportive pieces makes it too difficult to stop its setup"
Then your problem actually has nothing to do with Espathra, its with anything that can Baton Pass + Setup and fill a similar role. Espathra being wheelchaired by Incin/Rilla/Gholdengo/Lando can be done with anything that gets a speed and special attack boosting move and learns the move Baton Pass, nothing that Espathra specifically is doing contributes to this talking point.

Additionally, I don't believe you. Fake Out is easier to answer in Gen 9 than it EVER has been before with Covert Cloak and Tera Ghost (balanced mechanics), and the Fake Out pieces in this gen have been directly nerfed compared to last gen to make them less capable of providing value outside of Fake Out. With how high the power level of this format is the more resources you dedicate to supporting the Espathra the worse your team will be if your opponent out-offenses you or finds a way to deal with your setup in a unique way you didn't think to cover for. Espathra teams cannot dedicate the level of support needed to make sure their shitmon is not instantly blown up by the offensive power of this format and still have a team that's good into everything, or even a solid chunk of the things they could reasonably face.

"Baton Pass makes Espathra's lines and game plans too flexible"
Then ban Baton Pass.

"Espathra adds nothing and not banning it only benefits Espathra players"
A pokemon doesn't need to add anything or benefit anyone to be not banworthy, otherwise we would've banned Shuckle and Weak Armor Armarouge by now. The response to cheese has always been to fit more counterplay onto your teams and play better to utilize that counterplay, and I have yet to see convincing arguments for why that doesn't apply here other than not liking it

"If a team doesn't have a dedicated way to stop Espathra, it becomes a nightmare"
So does every Pokemon ever. If you don't have a check to a Pokemon you lose to it. Pull up to an SV game with no Ground resists or no Gholdengo answers and you're going to get blown up, same applies to Espathra. This is not inherently unhealthy this is how cheese (not even cheese this is just how Pokemon in general works) has always worked.

"Espathra can outplay/ourprepare you even if you have techs for it"
So can most setup Pokemon. Setup Pokémon have never been answerable by just bringing a move or bringing a Pokemon, otherwise they wouldn't be good. You don't just put a Wood Hammer Rillaboom on your team and automatically never lose to Tapu Fini, or it wouldn't be a good Pokemon. You can't just bring a Landorus and automatically win against a Calm Mind Raging Bolt. You have to play well to position those counters and deny your opponent setup opportunities, whether that be through aggressive play and reads or strong positional play and use of disruption options like Fake Out and Taunt. Getting outplayed by Espathra isn't evidence that it's broken, you just got outplayed, and that's okay.

I'm not saying all this to call SV players bad at the game or to act like I understand this tier any better than anyone else, I just genuinely do not understand what makes Espathra different from the cheese strategies that have literally ALWAYS existed and will always exist.

The only real compelling argument I can think of is Espathra is winning tournament games and other strategies aren't. While I don't think tournament games are the end all be all of whether or not a Pokemon is broken (There are plenty of replays of it losing to the exact things I've talked about like offensive pressure and positioning hard techs to beat it, and players are not immune to just getting outplayed or unlucky even if it is a tournament game), but even if I do just take this at face value I don't see that as evidence that Espathra should be banned.

From what I've played Espathra is a Pokemon with PLENTY of hard techs and bad matchups to counter it, and while Espathra can tech their team to matchup fish and be strong into some counters, it can't have good matchups into all of its counterplay at the same time, and will still have games where it rolls a bad matchup or loses to a team with multiple soft checks... like every other setup strategy ever.

My Suspect Runs + Games against Espathra (will be updated later)
I'm aware these replays matter less than actual tournament results but I'm not putting myself through this 3 separate times for nothing
My first suspect reqs run was done with a Ting Lu + Dondozo team. This wasn't done intentionally to counterteam Espathra (I genuinely just found the archetype interesting and wanted to learn it), but the team I used does happen to have a good matchup between Covert Cloak Ting Lu, Unaware Dondozo (which I later changed to Oblivious anyway) and Inner Focus Extreme Speed Dragonite. I played 2 Espathra teams in my entire run and won both times:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2569313684?p2 won with the Covert Cloak Taunt hard tech + paonite generally being good into these teams
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2569295569?p2 almost lost because I didn't play around Tera properly, didn't actually have much to do with the Espathra at all

[all other runs are still in progress, will be edited later]
For my second run I decided to use an Espathra team myself. 1 played 1 Espathra mirror and won (I did lose to a team that had Espathra on it but it was never sent out
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2569422883-difxos4jathwj9mkb9q4ybn0yso0nu5pw won with more proactive positioning and aggressive play
 
1774704182219.png

just got reqs, didn't run into a single espathra the whole time. laddering was pretty easy too since loading ursaluna just feels like a free win.
I don't have much to add to the espathra argument but I do agree it should be banned since it does often cut out skill expression and makes many matchups come down to a fish (some teams like typical snow kinda just autolose for example).
Here's the team i used have fun: :cinderace::torkoal::rillaboom::ursaluna::farigiraf::diancie: someone thought i was chris lmao
 
I can't remember when the last time I got reqs for a suspect was, but SV DOU is just too much fun. This Pokemon is obviously messed up though and needs to go.

I just wanted to respond to one critique of the arguments for banning:
"Espathra passing to Gholdengo and being supported by strong supportive pieces makes it too difficult to stop its setup"
Then your problem actually has nothing to do with Espathra, its with anything that can Baton Pass + Setup and fill a similar role. Espathra being wheelchaired by Incin/Rilla/Gholdengo/Lando can be done with anything that gets a speed and special attack boosting move and learns the move Baton Pass, nothing that Espathra specifically is doing contributes to this talking point.

Additionally, I don't believe you. Fake Out is easier to answer in Gen 9 than it EVER has been before with Covert Cloak and Tera Ghost (balanced mechanics), and the Fake Out pieces in this gen have been directly nerfed compared to last gen to make them less capable of providing value outside of Fake Out. With how high the power level of this format is the more resources you dedicate to supporting the Espathra the worse your team will be if your opponent out-offenses you or finds a way to deal with your setup in a unique way you didn't think to cover for. Espathra teams cannot dedicate the level of support needed to make sure their shitmon is not instantly blown up by the offensive power of this format and still have a team that's good into everything, or even a solid chunk of the things they could reasonably face.
I think this misses the important point that Espathra is (with the exception of Blaziken) the only Pokemon capable of passively boosting its Speed stat in conjunction with other stats at the same time. Counterplay becomes way more limited as a result. Any other Pokemon that boosts its Speed and Special Attack and learns Baton Pass can at least be slowed down via things that are common: targeting with Fake Out, getting up Tailwind to out-offense it in time, etc. But these do not apply to Espathra because its Speed stat gets boosted safely behind Protect, which drastically limits your options. After it Protects it'll typically be faster than most unboosted Pokemon, so now it'll be able to get up a Calm Mind boost and limit the damage that can be dealt, and one CM boost can be all it takes for you to just lose to the ultimate counterplay-obviator in Gholdengo. This means that it's just not as simple as targeting via Fake Out to reposition yourself (compared to other setup Pokemon that can Baton Pass) - Espathra can make progress every turn in a wide variety of MUs, including when it is not lead with, as demonstrated in some of Schister's replays. Even the very common Tailwind is shaky since it only works if Espathra has no boosts to begin with and can often fail since Espathra would only need 2-3 Speed Boosts (once again, very easy to obtain with Protect). Everything I just mentioned is very trivially known, but at the end of the day it's clear that nothing is really like Espathra, or fulfills a similar role to it; its demonstrated effectiveness clearly puts it in a different category altogether. There's a reason this Pokemon is getting use compared to all other "shitmons".

The above is assuming that it's getting the bare minimum team support, which leads to all those dire replays. Further considerations like Covert Cloak and Tera-Ghost to limit support are unhelpful because those things alone are not enough to actually deal with Espathra. Those are only meaningful answers if the Pokemon utilizing it can actually do the job of stopping the setup, and while in some cases the surprise is enough to do the job, things like Grassy Seed / Intimidate / etc. lead me to think that this is just theorymonning. Above all, it just seems vague; there appear to be plenty more examples of the Espathra user bypassing a difficult matchup than there are clear and easy examples of it getting owned by sufficiently standard stuff. More concrete examples of such clever countermeasures - that are not obviously useless otherwise -would make the case more convincing.

Just on personal experience using the vanilla version of that team a few times, it was absurdly trivial to identify auto-win MUs within 5 seconds of loading team preview (against pretty standard-looking teams), and these were the majority of games I played with it. I lost more games because I kept clicking Gholdengo to switch in on my second Pokemon instead of Baton Passing to it than I did to any intelligent means of stopping the setup. Granted I'm not very good and the sample size was far from large, but it was really glaring how easy it was. I think just off of that experience alone I'd vote ban. It's obviously not some invincible strategy but it seems so unreasonably effective that it should not be part of the tier.
 
I'll be voting ban on espathra, longer explanation in the video above but as a tldr: Espathra adds a pretty unenjoyable and unhealthy constraint to the builder and its existence basically only makes the tier worse. I think SV will be looked on far more favorably as an oldgen if it's removed now, which is something I think should carry a lot of weight given that the tier is otherwise very stable currently. While it might not have the largest impact on the tier by usage rate, I think it's still something that should be banned by virtue of being uncompetitive and purely reductive to the gameplay experience (similar to something like snow cloak/evasion abilities, which had even less usage before its ban).
 
got recs once my coil finally started showing up

didnt run into a single espathra on ladder but i think this bird should 100% undoubtably get nuked and ill be happy to see it go. none of the non-ban arguments are in any way compelling to me, many boiling down to misunderstandings of tiering systems (e.g. ban baton pass when espathra is the only problematic user rn, i dont think it adds anything but afaik the tiering policy doesnt allow for a ban in such a case - also even if im wrong on policy this is also just an admittance that espathra is overwhelming and uncompetitive in itself), misunderstandings of how espathra functions and its difference from more regular sweepers, or at points just ignorance of the replays/problems that espathra has caused. this is not to say that there isn't any counterplay to espathra or no valid ban arguments i just havent seen any yet. espathra adds nothing on substance to the tier and trivialises many a match while being a pain and a half in the builder, not a mon that should stay in this tier.
 
:sv/espathra:
1774998372333.png

Removing any lens of bias and strictly looking at it through a competitive lens, yeah this mon is definitely not healthy for the metagame, but I don't entirely believe it's Espathras fault. In my opinion Espathra is actually quite healthy if you ban Baton Pass instead, as the games where I couldn't get to Gholdengo and was just relying on Espathra to sweep, it was extremely fun and felt fair both as the user and as the opponent (this also happened to another soldier on ladder I was facing o7)
Personally I think Espathra has flaws and as IcyPenguin2 so gracefully put it, "if you’re playing someone good it turns into a fun momentum battle" and I wholeheartedly agree. The push and pull dynamic is very fun to play around and is quite skill intensive. Espathra is also like, veryyy fun to pilot and it's prolly the most fun I've had doing a suspect.

Shouts on Schister for the team, peace

Fuck ladder tho omg, like 11 of my loses were just people critting a fully set-up Espathra/Ghold, ts is INFURIATING
 
1774996539877.png

honestly one of the best suspect tours i have ever played not gonna lie. but i vote to BAN Espathra. honestly with baton pass cheese the support it gets is absolutely crazy, yes you can beat it im not saying it's a unbeatable team like haze hard counters it. ive seen it a TON while laddering too like 1/4 games ive seen the thing trying to wreak havoc on sv dou and im tired of it. shoutout ting-lu for the hard counter on these teams https://pokepast.es/644511ec8e9859f2
 
Will be voting to Ban the bird, can't say it much better than Schister and Eragon's posts. This mon is just uninteractive and adds an extra element of cheese to the format, while we don't really gain anything from keeping it in the tier.

Want to take a moment to reiterate what some others have said about not seeing Espathra on ladder at all. This is a pure tournament mon (yes it is a fish), and highlights a flaw with some of the current system for tiering. Not to distract from Espathra, but this is a perfect example of why the current system is unideal. Players laddering for this suspect may not see how devastating Espathra can truly be on the builder and the very specific counterplay it requires if they have not played against it during ladder, OSDT, or another tour on the site. Hopefully in Gen 10 we can get a revamp to the suspect system because the current methodology isnt conducive to how the tier is actually playing in tournaments, which makes it hard to get real tiering action done in cases like this.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to preface this post by saying that I have a lot of respect for the council for letting espathra actually play out in the meta before suspecting it. While a lot of people would have liked for it to be quickbanned from the tier or suspected much earlier (including me), I think that giving it time to develop its team styles and opponents to find its checks has let players scale the extent of its power much more accurately. I will be voting ban on Espathra, but since my last post on this pokemon, I have gained far more experience playing against Espathra and therefore have developed a different perspective on it. I'm also going to try to bring up points that haven't been talked that heavily about above, since a lot of the people have put forward really strong and good arguments and if I reiterated them that isn't really meaningful.

1. What actually separates Espathra from other sweepers?
At first glance, Espathra looks like it isn't too different to other sweepers in the metagame such as Raging Bolt and to a lesser extent Volcarona. All three of these pokemon boost the same offensive stats, and all three of them have a form of speed control to let them become bigger threats - Espathra with Speed Boost, Volcarona with QD, and Bolt with T-clap. But what separates Espathra's speed control is that it is far, far harder to stop it than for both the other pokemon mentioned. Volcarona is prone to getting doubled and killed before it can set up a quiver dance, and thunderclap can be redirected, shut down by psychic terrain, or outplayed on the 50/50s. On the other hand, if you threaten to outspeed and OHKO Espathra with things like Landorus or Regidrago, Espathra can stall a turn with protect, get a speed boost first, and then set up while being faster. On top of that, it can attack opponents with things like stored power while knowing that it will get more threatening by the end of the turn. The thing about this is that it adds an extra layer of passive speed control, which makes Espathra really dangerous as a setup sweeper because you can't play too slowly around it. While this is a very strong concept in a vacuum, the reality is that if this was all Espathra had, it would still be niche at best if these were its only qualities because it has extremely subpar stats. The opponent can often simply chip it down and trade against it with common pokemon like incineroar, gholdengo, or paonite. What actually elevates Espathra is its access to Baton Pass, one of the most gimmicky yet frustrating moves in the game. This allows Espathra to serve as not only an incredible form of speed control for its boost receivers, but also lets multiple pokemon benefit from one singular boosting slot. The issue with this concept is that you can no longer just keep chipping down Espathra to eventually kill it, because it can baton pass its boosts for other pokemon to keep the momentum. The problem with this is that it's not like the pokemon it passes the boosts to are bad pokemon; they are meta-defining threats that are already extremely powerful without having 2-3x their normal longevity and power. Overall, the reason Espathra is being suspected is because of its ability to snowball not only on its own, but with multiple pokemon using the same boosts.

2. Why is counterplay to Espathra considered uncommon?
This is something that I have thought about for a while, because it feels like it shouldn't be that hard to stop Espathra. There are a lot of tools like covert cloak, taunt, phazing, encore, etc. which can help slow down the bird enough that it can be picked up by a teammate eventually. Taunt, Encore, and Phazing especially (via Roar/Whirlwind, will talk about Haze in a bit) all seem like alternatives that should be more common because of their ability to shut down other boost sweepers alongside working against Espathra. However, I think that a huge reason that none of these are seen as often is the presence of Gholdengo in the tier. Good as Gold blocks all these status moves, and while these are all forms of counterplay that work against Espathra (a far more niche pokemon), they won't work against Gholdengo (a Tier 1 threat present on over 50% of teams). Because of this, using Taunt on your Incineroar or Roar on your Ninetales-A becomes much less common, because you can't stop the most common sweeper and can get much more value out of a different move. As for Haze, the move is not distributed widely enough for it to be mainstream, and when you use things like Murkrow then you don't only reduce the general value that you could be getting out of your pokemon slot, but also telegraph your counterplay to your opponent. You may have noticed that I haven't talked about covert cloak yet, and the main reason for that is cloak is a pretty niche item that isn't standard for most pokemon. Things like Ting-Lu who want to whirlwind espathra generally get far more value out of items like leftovers or grassy seed, Landorus who can OHKO Espathra is significantly better with life orb generally, roar Ninetales-A is much stronger with Light Clay, etc. Yes, cloak does provide a lot of utility and is great on pokemon like Tornadus and Okidogi. But the key issue with cloak is that it doesn't address a lot of the other issues like the incredible amount of utility from moves that Espathra teams will carry outside of fake out. If the sole reason you use up your item is for a slight improvement in an already niche matchup, you often aren't getting the most value from the item. Often times this causes people to get caught off guard by Espathra,

3. Is Espathra actually the problem here or is it Baton Pass?
This part of the argument had me extremely torn on whether I should vote DNB on Espathra or not, and is the main reason I'm posting this a few days after I got my reqs. The thing about Baton Pass is that it has made even pokemon like Eevee extremely uncompetitive, and Noelle brought forward Polteageist as well who also isn't exactly a meta threat. Now, we have Espathra abusing Baton Pass, which is yet again a low tier pick feeling banworthy because of baton pass + boosts. Moreover, Espathra is the only actually viable Baton Pass user in DOU, which means that the first real Baton Pass user in DOU is about to get banned: is that a Baton Pass problem? Without Baton Pass, as I mentioned before, Espathra is at best niche as a solo setup sweeper because of its stats being subpar. But there are a lot of inherent flaws with Espathra being in the meta itself. Firstly, the tools to stop Espathra are still uncommon and it can still be semi-consistent because of that. Secondly, as Eragon pointed out in his video above, the meta being super special heavy makes Espathra a lot stronger in the meta, and removing Baton Pass won't change that. Yes, Espathra will be a giant matchup fish without Baton Pass. But because of DOU's state, it will still get that matchup more often than people might expect. A counterargument could be that you have to respect all relevant pokemon in the builder and Espathra is no different. A typical build doesn't focus on JUST beating Espathra, but Espathra builds focus on beating all possible counters, which will result in your counterplay being much harder to use. Add on that Espathra techs aren't very flexible or usable outside that matchup AND that you often will need to get reads right either on lead or on the setup turns, and you can see why I don't want to risk keeping this pokemon in the tier.

4. Key arguments for DNB that I didn't talk about yet
A common argument I see that Espathra isn't unique when you say that it can outplay you despite your techs: so can every pokemon. The issue I've had with this is that a very important part of dealing with most setup sweepers is positioning in your counters. Bluntly put, Espathra feeds on your switches and repositions. You cant feasibly pin this thing down (another common way to stop boost sweepers) because it can protect and then escape the pin because you will almost always not outspeed it anymore. On a similar road, the argument that not having techs into Espathra is your own fault is not really black-and-white, because to truly consistently beat Espathra, you need to commit more than just one item or tera type and call out when the opponent will position Espathra to try sweep (you won't have time to position unless your name is Murkrow). I have also seen the argument that Espathra not adding anything to the tier doesn't make it banworthy, but I would say that Espathra actually harms the tier in a very meaningful way. The ratio of being easy to use and being good is incredibly skewed on Espathra, because any random person can pull up with this and beat a top tier player even if their understanding of the game is significantly worse. It reduces the skill gap required to maintain a healthy format, wasting a lot of time and effort for those people that spend hours to understand the metagame better.

5. A hypothetical meta without the ostrich
Bliss.

Conclusion (tl;dr for those who don't want to read through the whole post)
Speed Boost's flexibility as well as Espathra's ability to both sweep alone and pass the same boosts to teammates maintains too much momentum for common team structures to properly handle. In addition, Espathra answers are few and far between in DOU, with the most common sweeper in :gholdengo: just stopping almost all the counterplay. This causes the logical thoughts of "if I can't roar a Gholdengo with my Ninetales-Alola, shouldn't I run a different move that has better general use?" And your team just lost an Espathra answer. Baton Pass is a huge reason as to why Espathra is so annoying: Pokemon that already see high usage in tours like Gholdengo and Raging Bolt are not supposed to outspeed your whole team while also being twice as bulky. The thing is that banning Baton Pass doesn't invalidate Espathra's superb position in the meta, meaning it can still matchup fish and win without passing (see: Madaraaaa vs Nails). Finally, beating Espathra is deceptively difficult even if you have tools, because if Espathra comes in on you when you are out of position the speed at which it wins the game often won't give you a chance to reposition.

Final thoughts
I personally do not like Espathra's niche at all. I think its really one-dimensional in its goal and doesn't really have that many unique ways to win, and multiple ways to win a game is a characteristic that I love about doubles in general. Despite being like this, it still feels so overly flexible because of the fact that it can come in any time it wants, and you kinda just have to be ready every single turn. I do wish that people ran other sets on this pokemon though, sets like opportunist as a counterteam or sash lumina crash as support seem like such underexplored and awesome sets that could be used. But no, this is what the bird is destined to do I guess. So far, I'm 99% sure this thing is getting banned and I'm definitely really happy for that. I do still have my eyes out for Baton Pass though, I feel like its such a volatile move and can enable some of the dumbest strategies in Doubles as a whole. Support or abusers of this move will only get better with the next generations, so we might need to take a look at how we view this move before its bar gets set too high.
Thank you so, so much for reading through this. It took me over 3 hours total to formulate everything and its midnight when I'm finishing this up, but I hope you enjoyed!


Edit:
1775167160481.png
Yes, I got reqs like 3 days ago lol
 
Last edited:
Been playing a lot on ladder with Espathra to get a feel for it, since while I've seen replays I only have played against it a couple of times. Really it seems like there's three main ways to deal with it:

1. Disruption: Usually in the form of stuff like taunt/encore/whirlwind/roar/haze/Dragon Tail that can often stop Espathra in its tracks, but other options like snarl, cycling parting shot, etc. can also slow it down. Espathra teams usually have methods to stop these disruption techs, stuff like their own fast taunts/follow me, and even throat chop.

2. Setting up your own threat: Basically Espathra takes a few turns to get going, and in that time the opponent cant set up their own sweeper to ideally outdamage the Espathra. Stuff like :Gholdengo: :Moltres-Galar: :Volcarona: :Okidogi: :Raging Bolt: :kingambit:. Espathra teams can try to slow these down with cycling their fake out/follow me/taunt.

3. Overwhelm with offense: If you bring enough offense you can typically take out Espathra before it gets the boosts going, typically with stuff like :Gholdengo: (especially specs), :Dragonite: :Chien-Pao: :Chi-yu: :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: :Ursaluna:. Obviously Espathra teams try to slow this down with fake out cycling, intimidate, follow me, and once Espathra gets a few boosts it gets a lot bulkier, so you have to get this damage out quick.

In my experience, pretty much every team already has one of these three options to shut down Espathra, it just comes down to being able to outplay the support options. So if people feel theres too many good support options that it's too difficult and want to vote Ban, then that's fine, but as others have said before those options can be around to support any type of omniboosting set up. In my experience, it hasn't been too difficult for the opposing players to beat it, here's a few examples:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2571993213?p2 Opponent has a clever turn 1 that either guarantees getting up TR or getting a parting shot off, then gets in a big damage dealer like Ursaluna and is easily able to defeat Espathra. This is a multiple year old team, so it's not like it was intentionally teched to deal with Espathra, just played it smartly.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2571825724?p2 Leading offense puts Espathra in a position where it's not really able to get many boosts, and even though the opponent gets a little unlucky with sleep accuracy & wake-up turns, they still have so much damage that Espathra is so far on its back foot that it can't get enough boosts going before the rest is overwhelmed.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2571490141 Leading offense forces Espathra to tera immediately, and decent play into it just overwhelms Espathra even when it's able to pass a boost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-920438?p2 Faced with an opposing Volcarona to out set-up Espathra, it's not able to be lead, which means it has to come in on a bad position, where it takes a ton of damage from a specs gholdengo and can't get anything going.

It ultimately just seems like a cheese strategy (of which there are many), and there's enough counterplay currently existing in the metagame, and I'm a believer we should let people bring as many varied strategies they want as long as there's counterplay, so I'll be voting DNB.
 
Birds of a feather, we should stick together, I know
I said I'd never think I wasn't better alone
Can't change the weather, might not be forever
But if it's forever, it's even better

:sv/espathra:

Following its rise in usage and performance in recent tours, the DOU Council has decided Espathra is deserving of a suspect test!

Despite a rather subpar statline, Espathra fulfills a unique role due to its combination of Speed Boost, Calm Mind, and Baton Pass. This allows Espathra to pass boosts in Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed (along with optionally Defense if using Grassy Seed with Rillaboom) to a teammate such as Gholdengo or Primarina to benefit from. While Baton Pass strategies are typically lackluster in doubles from being too slow and exploitable, Espathra however is quite effective, requiring only a turn or two to set up for it to achieve a threatening number of boosts.

Espathra is deceptively bulky, as Speed Boost allows it to invest heavily in bulk, while still moving before opponents to reduce incoming damage with Calm Mind, or Baton Pass before being targeted. Meanwhile, the aforementioned option of Grassy Seed with Rillaboom softens physical blows, with Intimidate from Incineroar also providing defensive cover. Both these teammates also importantly provide Fake Out, helping to safely create the one turn Espathra needs to start snowballing. Together, the two can even cycle Fake Out by switching between each other while Espathra Protects. Stored Power provides another angle to Espathra besides Baton Pass, as after boosts begin to rack up, Stored Power and therefore Espathra itself quickly becomes a threat on its own. Gholdengo is probably the strongest beneficiary of Baton Pass, as a strong spread special attacker immune to Fake Out and phazing, but other special attackers such as Primarina, Raging Bolt, or more, can also take advantage of Espathra's boosts.

As a Pokemon reliant on boosts, either for its own benefit or for a teammate, Espathra struggles if prevented from being able to set up successfully. With Espathra teams typically being built around supporting and benefitting from it, neutralising Espathra will usually also cripple the team as a whole. Calm Mind provides reliable damage mitigation on the special side, but Espathra's physical side is more vulnerable, particularly if not running Grassy Seed. Pokemon like Chien-Pao, Incineroar, and Roaring Moon all threaten serious damage against Espathra with their STAB attacks while being naturally immune to Stored Power, with Roaring Moon also outspeeding +1 Espathra and having Tailwind to outspeed it beyond that. Espathra's reliance on Fake Out support means Pokemon immune to it can cause problems; Gholdengo can set up itself or threaten with a super effective Shadow Ball, Dragonite can use Extreme Speed to hit Espathra before it uses Baton Pass no matter how high its Speed is, or (Covert Cloak) Tornadus can impair Espathra with a Prankster Taunt. Phazing such as Whirlwind from Ting-Lu can force out Espathra or a non-Gholdengo beneficiary and remove their boosts. One last option to deal with Espathra is Trick Room, turning its Speed boosts against it and allowing practically any Pokemon to move before it or the Pokemon it Baton Passes into.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Espathra.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2980 (using a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this).
The suspect laddering period will begin <t:1774656000:F> and the deadline for getting requirements is <t:1775433600:F>.

Additionally there will be 2 live suspect tournaments in the Smogon Doubles Showdown room. The winner of each of these tournaments will qualify for suspect voting, and should reach out to me, or another member of staff so we can verify and add them to the voting pool.

Suspect Tournament Times
<t:1774713600:F>
<t:1774814400:F>

Espathra will be legal during this suspect.
i dont believe espartha should be banned due to sun full countering it#
 
1775298710576.png

good morning bilewater residents i js wanted to share some thoughts

why ban?
- extra layer of consideration in teambuilding
- extremely fishy
- one-dimensional game plan

why no ban?
- counterplay in some form is present in most teams / easily slottable (e.g taunt roaring moon & focus enery firepon which dont take up that much space in the teambuilder)
- not fundamentally broken as expected for banworthy mons

ive had a week to formulate an opinion and i still havent so those are the points that stand out to me the most, have a good day ig
 
One loss was to tabbing out and forgetting I had a game queued, so a pretty smooth run. Somehow I didn't see a single espathra on ladder, except for a choice specs one at 1400.

Anyways, espathra is a uniquely broken abuser of baton pass because it can passively boost its speed, so the volcarona comp is invalid(When's the last time someone won with baton pass quiver dance volcarona in a tour anyways?). Espathra in itself is a threatening sweeper after setting up a few cms, as it can unleash huge stored powers while outspeeding the opponent. These stored powers scale with calm minds far more than say, a raging bolt dragon pulses, and unlike raging bolt, Espathra can then pass its boosts to whatever statstick it wants. Meaning that in the builder, one must not only account for a frail bird, but also a +1/+1/+1/+1 kyurem, gholdy, kommo-o, prima etc. One of the main arguments against an espathra ban is likening it to other setup sweepers with fake out support, but cm bolt, np ghold, qd volc, sd lando-t, are all incapable of passing on their buffs to some random teammate, and this makes both playing against it and building against it far more challenging than say, accounting for ghold or prima by themselves, especially since even in the worst case for the espathra player they will be able to pass out +1 defense and +1 speed.

All this to say that the entire team structure is so annoyingly flexible that I can only consider it an uninteractive mu fish. Hence I will be voting ban.


Screenshot 2026-04-04 at 9.01.34 PM.png
 
Just my opinions and take

Note that my post is not better than the previous one.

I just wanna talk about It's Checks mostly and how it usually overcome them and how it's check are not full proof

Checks : 1. DARK TYPES :There are 9 Dark types in Dou right now. Which seems like they can threaten the Espathra but with intimidate from partner incineroar already shuts down knock off or dark type attack from Chien pao, Roaring Moon opposing Incineroar,Ting lu, Tyranitar and gambit is unreliable and doesn't like taking flare blits from incineroar or ground type attack from ting lu and landorus which are partners of the emu.And runing clear amulet doesn't help the case, running clam over sash on chien pao ,and knock from a roaring moon after a der boost is only doing half.The other one is Tyranitar but it is threaten by espathra partner like rillaboom landorus and ogerpon.Knock can be easily redirected by Ogerpon whos item can't be knock .Heres some calc of offensive moon with proto and a max atk set and standard set,chien pao and kingambit.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 150-176 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
After intimidate

After Intimidate,

-1 0 Atk Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 84-98 (21.3 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Here is Chein-Pao calcs,

252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Throat Chop vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After intimidate,

-1 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Throat Chop vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Here is Kingambit,

252+ Atk Dread Plate Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. +1 252 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 252-296 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gambit looks like a paper check but fake out cycle and ground type from espathra partner are not so appreciated by Kingambit.

Ting lu seems like it can deal with it easily without being threatening it offensively by whirlwind but taunt and good as gold by gholdengo stops it.

On the special side Chi Yu and Moltres -Galar Chi yu doesn't like taking consecutive fake out or have to Tera ghost which now makes it prone to Rillaboom and incineroar.For Moltres Galar it either have to nasty plot to do decent damge to Espathra after cm while having to deal with parting shot and fake out cycle.Chi yu can OHKO it however, It's not that easily due to Chi tu frailty compare to moltres-galar, chi yu is harder to position in some cases.

192+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 252 HP / 16 SpD Espathra: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

192+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +2 252 HP / 16 SpD Espathra: 140-168 (35.5 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And there is also snarl but it is not so problematic for the Espathra team and most Pokemon that used it have better moves to run except Incineroar and chi yu but as I said fake out cycle having to commit Tera ghost is also a huge risk that make you weak to knock/Throat chop from Incineroar and shadow ball from Gholdengo.


Side Note: DnitePao may look like its a good matchup to espathra but, Espathra usually have tera Ghost and you really cant fully ignore Incineroar that can parting shot the Dnite which will reduce its chance to 2 Hit ko even after grassy seed but now its a 3 hit ko and comes another mind game of 'Will it Tera' from chien-pao.Overall its a mind game and positional game for both side in short.


2. Roar/whirlwind/Taunt/Haze/Encore/Dragon Tail

These moves seems like a easy solution to Espathra and any other setup sweeper.But they end up not very effective at stopping Espathra

FIRST :Let's start with Roar and whirlwind,
the most common user are Ting lu and Incineroar and niche option like farig, which both are shuts down by taunt form opposing Incineroar or Ogerpon even if they invest on speed due to the move having lower priority and makes it unreliable and can also be redirected within follow me form Ogerpon.

SECOND :Taunt,Only like 9 out of the
19 mon that gets taunt in the tier used it and the most common are Tornadus,Landorus-T,Grimmsnarl and Whimsicott, and some niche rare user are non AV Rillaboom, Incineroar,Ogerpon, Roaring Moon and Sneasler I guss.The fastest non Prankster user is Chien pao but seriously why would I run it over better moves ?? And Sneasler and Roaring Moon in DOU.They either Taunt you or redirect your taunt.

THIRD : Haze it's the most effective but,there are only 3 mon that gets Haze in the tier Chien-Pao,Dragonite and Primarina and more niche option like Mew and Volcanion.They have better option to use and run on their moveset
Like example Chien -pao already have trouble choosing its stab or sacred sword or icy wind and mixing haze just make it worse
And Dragonite is not effective and cb espeed can be better at dealling the emu. And Primarina is slow and ineffective even if it tries to run it and have better moves like hyper voice, moonblast,or dazzling Gleam are honesty more useful and Primarina is slow and very threaten by rillaboom without Tera,and onto volcanion, It has to choose Choosing over Sub or earth power, and can't run it at all on AV set.
the only effective user would be Murkrow
But then you are using a Murkrow,which is not good in other department like whim and torn are.And people can see the haze comming a mile ago.

FOURTH: Encore distribution is not good as the other mention but it's still good at stopping early before it setup cm and racks up speed before it can protect or Baton pass it or switching in the redirection but only 3 mons use it reliably and regular that is Whimsicott,ogerpon and Ninetales-alola,But if not position well they are not effective,they are usually effective in early but not in mid game when they rack up some boost.Encore looks good but not quite effective as it looks as we see in replays and game.

FIFTH:Dragon Tail,Its the moat rarely used by far and only barely used by a Raging Bolt Tyranitar and Dragonite but rarely and sacrificing better moves for a phasing move that can be redirected or easily scout by protect unlike Roar and whirlwind which goes through protect ,it is not as effective as other but its a niche surprise factor but after which it can be easily more counter played.

There might be some I'm not including but these are the most popular counterplay I heard or people just slap it on *


Before ending it I just wanna say we can't really compare it to those cheese Omni boosting setup,and one thing is that the partners of Espathra can also function as another mode without espathra in some matchup.If we are really comparing it I wanna compare its annoying factor with Sableye -Mega from Gen 6 OU and it getting target with Xerneas in VGC when it's legal.I won't go in depth about it as the format are difference but my point is a mon can be also ban worthy by being annoying to deal with and the player base not liking it and second, A mon can be countered team ,but that doesn't mean it's not good that is just like Xerneas in VGC it's good and won multiple tournament but not world it was the public enemy.
After using the Espathra myself for a week most team I faced usually have a counter or way to check more than it did before it got popular and tested which made other setup sweeper like CM Raging Bolt and Np Gholdengo etc so much harder to use on ladder.

Last thing, my grammar or words are I used may not be the best so apologies
Have a Good Day
 
Last edited:
Back
Top