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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
As promised here, I've decided to drop some teams I made and loaded during this SPL. As a metalhead, some names are directly linked to song titles from my preferred bands
https://pokepast.es/30dc8ffa4f8b5fc1 - I've always been confident in this 6, I faced an awful MU and this team shown it was able to win vs boots + skarm. Pretty funny my call was tspikes + weather ball tornt to break their team and their zapdos usage, and I faced blissey + boots team. I was kinda annoyed by garganacl there so I chose to use slowking-galar with -atk and 31iv speed and 44ev speed to outspeed it and psynoise to deal with.
https://pokepast.es/d0b41d15593962fe - This one is a revamp of my SPL week 4 vs ACR1, I just had garchomp > ceruledge but I do think it actually breaks better fat teams. In this game, manaphy woulda been decent regardless of haxx. It ended in a way I didnt want to but we move on. Screen is broken and I do think we should seriously hard look for suspect items like Light Clay and Heat Rock looking at how this has been strongly rewarded in this SPL.
https://pokepast.es/162987988442c1cf - We won't talk about this game, but this is prob my preferred build I've done by far this SPL. And yes; there's an other wball tornt, because I think this can be decent vs some teams. You can say Ogerpon is rough vs it but actually even if you tera Iron Hands you'll never regret it in that kind of mu as Tornadus-Therian or scarf tusk will make other mons to struggle, so I think that's fair. This Slowking-Galar is future sight because for me one of the rarest mons that come to Hands (without fifty/fifty move to click) is Pecharunt full def.
https://pokepast.es/83f49059b3739010 - Probably the coolest offense Ive built in this SPL, even though its a classic 6, I theorized it a few. Ting-Lu ohkoes Ogerpon after weakness policy with Payback, and I do live crit woger adamant. Samurott-Hisui is scarf sacred sword tera ghost in case zama idef becomes annoying. Liquidation on Iron Valiant helps to deal with moltres, and Iron Moth with energy ball tera grass deals well with garga teams overall. Ghold tera fight deals with stall a bit unless there's clodsire
https://pokepast.es/cecea15f5ce8c236 - Pcool grassy Ive built vs ATTRIBUTE, I think the team was fine but it ended to lose on full speed pecharunt, prob the only thing I didnt want to face there (and I wrote about it in my chan before the game as well), I'm a bit sad this one lost but pretty sure its a decent 6. Zama lorb adamant breaks pwell fat teams and benefits from grassy to extra turns. You can easily make it tera dark for pech, I made it fight for corviknight
https://pokepast.es/34df6433f597a28a - This one is one Ive built for entrocefalo in semifinals, he didnt load it at the end but then I shared it to several people on tours and they didnt drop any game. Here I targetted some garganacl so I decided to play covert nite. In addition, Ive made tusk head smash av to live some cool things like Kyurem/Darkrai ice beam and to kill moltres which can be rough there
I have like 50 more teams I did in SPL but for most of them I want to keep them for the moment. As you can see there's a lot of Dragonite because I chose to share them because that's the kind of team new players will understand easily how it works for most of the ones Ive put here and... I guess that's the reason of why I wanted to share this, I like seeing people loading offense and having fun with it
all right, it's time for me to bring something to the table that i've been thinking about for a long time. we've had an entire year with no tiering action whatsoever and this meta is still unsatisfactory in many ways. broken threats such as primarina and alomomola rule the tier, and zap-king-lu is running rampant with no answers to it whatsoever except for all the answers there are. what to do about this scenario? the answer is obvious: we must unban arena trap and shadow tag. this is my thesis statement.
power creep has not been kind to these abilities. dugtrio may have been a legitimate threat in gen 6 or 7 or whenever the fuck arena trap was banned, i forget, but its damage output and speed tier are noticeably lacking in modern metas. it's outsped by meta staples such as dragapult, deoxys-speed and jolteon, and can do nothing against several common threats like chesnaught and dondozo. at -2, a scenario in which dugtrio often finds itself for what i hope are obvious reasons, it fails to even 2hko heatran in grassy terrain. what a loser! honestly i might even use wugtrio over it
relatively less affected by these problems, gothitelle is nonetheless plagued by a series of plagues that plague it. first of all, kingambit exists, even though it shouldn't. gothitelle has absolutely nothing against kingambit except for tricking it a choice item, and who would ever do that? you'd have to be a real dirtbag to pull off a move like that. have some decency. second of all, darkrai is legal now and can easily seduce gothitelle with its brooding and mysterious charms and easy access to cigarettes. third, ting-lu can wall anything gothitelle can do except for tricking it a choice item, and who would ever do that? you'd have to be a real dirtbag to pull off a move like that. have some decency. and last but not least, ou staple roaring moon can easily outspeed and ohko gothitelle with its powerful knock off, and gothitelle has no recourse against this. if there were some sort of mechanic that could allow it to change its type, maybe gothitelle would have a better time in these matchups, but fortunately there's no such thing (and even if there was, it would surely be banned)
i should also note here that wynaut, the best pokemon in the game by far, is not legal in this generation. thus, we have nothing to fear from it after a shadow tag unban unless it can afford a plane ticket to paldea, and air travel prices are only going up. i do have my reservations about trapinch, an arena trap user that's historically been way better than dugtrio due to its superior speed and power, but we can eat that bridge when we come to it. perchance.
let's go over some calcs: [remember to paste calcs here before posting]
furthermore, adding trapping abilities into the game has serious benefits. it punishes teams that switch a lot, which is something that no good pokemon in svou can probably do. this is good because i don't like it when my opponents switch. let me hit the thing in front of me! i clicked the super effective button and should be rewarded for it. in the anime there were limited amount of switch-ins a person could do especially the challenger, but since we can't implement that as part of our ruleset because of the tyrannical ou monarchy, our only solution to make the game more like the anime's ruleset (which is official and therefore far better than our fan-made one) is to unban these abilities. there are numerous unhealthy pokemon that become much easier to deal with if they can be trapped by arena trap, such as pecharunt, gholdengo, and gliscor
ornamental paragraph for filler. lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. i can just write whatever i want here because no one's going to read this paragraph. we must unite against the bourgeoisie. seize the means of production. you have nothing to lose but your chains. duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum
ok back to the essay. trapping has counterplay now that it's never had before. for example, you can run known viable item shed shell, because we all know that free item slots in svou are so abundant that you can just slap whatever on anything with no downside. you can also become immune from trapping by turning into a ghost. not tera ghost or anything, i mean turning into an actual ghost because your mon got trapped and fucking died
lastly, the april fools' sprites for dugtrio and gothitelle don't match up well against the modern meta. gothitelle is just the classic scribble gag. don't get me wrong, i do appreciate the scribbles and i think they should comprise a good number of sprites, but it's not often that i look at one and actually go "hah that's funny" unless it's really poorly drawn. and dugtrio is minions. now everyone knows that minions are objectively the funniest thing to ever exist, but we already have a minions joke. that's morpeko's whole deal. why do we need two sets of minions? gru only needed one set and he got plenty done with em
so in conclusion, i think an unban of these perfectly balanced and competitive abilities is long overdue and will have many beneficial effects on the meta that i'll think of later. if you still aren't convinced, then just read the first letter of each paragraph. and then go back and read the whole post because i know you skipped to the end looking for a tldr. i worked hard on this, shame on you
power creep has not been kind to these abilities. dugtrio may have been a legitimate threat in gen 6 or 7 or whenever the fuck arena trap was banned, i forget, but its damage output and speed tier are noticeably lacking in modern metas. it's outsped by meta staples such as dragapult, deoxys-speed and jolteon, and can do nothing against several common threats like chesnaught and dondozo. at -2, a scenario in which dugtrio often finds itself for what i hope are obvious reasons, it fails to even 2hko heatran in grassy terrain. what a loser! honestly i might even use wugtrio over it
relatively less affected by these problems, gothitelle is nonetheless plagued by a series of plagues that plague it. first of all, kingambit exists, even though it shouldn't. gothitelle has absolutely nothing against kingambit except for tricking it a choice item, and who would ever do that? you'd have to be a real dirtbag to pull off a move like that. have some decency. second of all, darkrai is legal now and can easily seduce gothitelle with its brooding and mysterious charms and easy access to cigarettes. third, ting-lu can wall anything gothitelle can do except for tricking it a choice item, and who would ever do that? you'd have to be a real dirtbag to pull off a move like that. have some decency. and last but not least, ou staple roaring moon can easily outspeed and ohko gothitelle with its powerful knock off, and gothitelle has no recourse against this. if there were some sort of mechanic that could allow it to change its type, maybe gothitelle would have a better time in these matchups, but fortunately there's no such thing (and even if there was, it would surely be banned)
i should also note here that wynaut, the best pokemon in the game by far, is not legal in this generation. thus, we have nothing to fear from it after a shadow tag unban unless it can afford a plane ticket to paldea, and air travel prices are only going up. i do have my reservations about trapinch, an arena trap user that's historically been way better than dugtrio due to its superior speed and power, but we can eat that bridge when we come to it. perchance.
let's go over some calcs: [remember to paste calcs here before posting]
furthermore, adding trapping abilities into the game has serious benefits. it punishes teams that switch a lot, which is something that no good pokemon in svou can probably do. this is good because i don't like it when my opponents switch. let me hit the thing in front of me! i clicked the super effective button and should be rewarded for it. in the anime there were limited amount of switch-ins a person could do especially the challenger, but since we can't implement that as part of our ruleset because of the tyrannical ou monarchy, our only solution to make the game more like the anime's ruleset (which is official and therefore far better than our fan-made one) is to unban these abilities. there are numerous unhealthy pokemon that become much easier to deal with if they can be trapped by arena trap, such as pecharunt, gholdengo, and gliscor
ornamental paragraph for filler. lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. i can just write whatever i want here because no one's going to read this paragraph. we must unite against the bourgeoisie. seize the means of production. you have nothing to lose but your chains. duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum
ok back to the essay. trapping has counterplay now that it's never had before. for example, you can run known viable item shed shell, because we all know that free item slots in svou are so abundant that you can just slap whatever on anything with no downside. you can also become immune from trapping by turning into a ghost. not tera ghost or anything, i mean turning into an actual ghost because your mon got trapped and fucking died
lastly, the april fools' sprites for dugtrio and gothitelle don't match up well against the modern meta. gothitelle is just the classic scribble gag. don't get me wrong, i do appreciate the scribbles and i think they should comprise a good number of sprites, but it's not often that i look at one and actually go "hah that's funny" unless it's really poorly drawn. and dugtrio is minions. now everyone knows that minions are objectively the funniest thing to ever exist, but we already have a minions joke. that's morpeko's whole deal. why do we need two sets of minions? gru only needed one set and he got plenty done with em
so in conclusion, i think an unban of these perfectly balanced and competitive abilities is long overdue and will have many beneficial effects on the meta that i'll think of later. if you still aren't convinced, then just read the first letter of each paragraph. and then go back and read the whole post because i know you skipped to the end looking for a tldr. i worked hard on this, shame on you
Dugtrio Is Broken isn't gonna like this proposition...
You know I’m really glad you guy brought back 
into the tier. I think the movepool additions of Heavy Slam that’s almost always 120 BP before Tough Claws and Psychic Fangs that does like fucking 75% minimum to 
are really healthy. Being able to sweep the entire Metagame after only some chip if that while effortlessly tanking most super effective hits and outspeeding all but the fastest Pokemon which it has Bullet Punch for is what this Metagame needs.
into the tier. I think the movepool additions of Heavy Slam that’s almost always 120 BP before Tough Claws and Psychic Fangs that does like fucking 75% minimum to are really healthy. Being able to sweep the entire Metagame after only some chip if that while effortlessly tanking most super effective hits and outspeeding all but the fastest Pokemon which it has Bullet Punch for is what this Metagame needs.
Is this your goat?You know I’m really glad you guy brought back
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Gogoat Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Metagross-Mega: 346-408 (95 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I expect April to have an uptick in tiering discussion + slight change in council personnel (we already saw oldspicemike step away). Will have more information as it is available, but just wanted to put this out there as a lot of you have reached out to me over the last month or two about where things were at! Appreciate the patience and hoping the next steps are for the best.
No, its being taken down, just takes a bit. Let's get back on track in this thread as well
Last edited:
Hi Smogon I'm back with some banger sets
Samurott-Hisui @ Black Glasses
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Although more commonly used as a lead or AV pivot, Samurott-H hits like a truck as a SD sweeper. Water/Dark can hit almost anything for at least neutral, and can OHKO a lot of would-be threats after one SD. I prefer Jolly nature over Adamant due to its middling speed stat, but you could opt for Adamant and rely on Sucker Punch as speed control. I got good results when pairing it with Great Tusk, as it can both eat electric moves and set rocks to further aid Samurott.
Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Fairy
Calm Nature
- Torch Song
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
I hate Iron Valiant so I decided to use this and it works pretty well. It also does well against offensive Zama sets thanks to its Ghost typing and Will-O-Wisp. Fairy is simply the supreme defensive Tera type, but you could use Tera Water to improve your matchup against Kingambit and Gholdengo.
Keldeo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Vacuum Wave
- Flip Turn
After getting tired of using Ogerpon-W, I discovered that Keldeo is a pretty underlooked mon that can wallbreak and revenge kill efficiently. I prefer Secret Sword over Aura Sphere in order to surprise mons like Blissey and Ting Lu. It does need proper support though, as opting for boots over specs gives it a rough time against stall teams. Thankfully, it pairs well with many of the tier's best hazard setters such as Ting Lu and Clefable.
Samurott-Hisui @ Black Glasses
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Although more commonly used as a lead or AV pivot, Samurott-H hits like a truck as a SD sweeper. Water/Dark can hit almost anything for at least neutral, and can OHKO a lot of would-be threats after one SD. I prefer Jolly nature over Adamant due to its middling speed stat, but you could opt for Adamant and rely on Sucker Punch as speed control. I got good results when pairing it with Great Tusk, as it can both eat electric moves and set rocks to further aid Samurott.
Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Fairy
Calm Nature
- Torch Song
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
I hate Iron Valiant so I decided to use this and it works pretty well. It also does well against offensive Zama sets thanks to its Ghost typing and Will-O-Wisp. Fairy is simply the supreme defensive Tera type, but you could use Tera Water to improve your matchup against Kingambit and Gholdengo.
Keldeo @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Vacuum Wave
- Flip Turn
After getting tired of using Ogerpon-W, I discovered that Keldeo is a pretty underlooked mon that can wallbreak and revenge kill efficiently. I prefer Secret Sword over Aura Sphere in order to surprise mons like Blissey and Ting Lu. It does need proper support though, as opting for boots over specs gives it a rough time against stall teams. Thankfully, it pairs well with many of the tier's best hazard setters such as Ting Lu and Clefable.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-discussion.3780060/#post-10934618
Feel free to discuss here as well -- posted a thread on SV OU tiering
Feel free to discuss here as well -- posted a thread on SV OU tiering
Of the constant official tournaments, are they as popular this far in as they were four years ago?
I know fun isn't the ideal strived for but getting to play with some of the old mons in a retest, even if they do result in overwhelming results keeping them Uber, would be enjoyable and scratch that itch.
I read lax post and I get that electro shot was good and we're not banning electro shit just to keep it OU.. But what I remember arch before electro shot and it was just a cool little dude that checked a ton of stuff with dragon tail and body press.
We've got an extra year of playing this game and I've accepted it will probably end in the state it's in but can we just open up to trying some stuff just to make super sure we don't end up with something better. It would be fun.
That's my plea. I prefer tera blast of course but really would just like to see something shake up. I have little interest in playing anymore. I do a bit, but it's a little stale.
I know fun isn't the ideal strived for but getting to play with some of the old mons in a retest, even if they do result in overwhelming results keeping them Uber, would be enjoyable and scratch that itch.
I read lax post and I get that electro shot was good and we're not banning electro shit just to keep it OU.. But what I remember arch before electro shot and it was just a cool little dude that checked a ton of stuff with dragon tail and body press.
We've got an extra year of playing this game and I've accepted it will probably end in the state it's in but can we just open up to trying some stuff just to make super sure we don't end up with something better. It would be fun.
That's my plea. I prefer tera blast of course but really would just like to see something shake up. I have little interest in playing anymore. I do a bit, but it's a little stale.
Disclaimer: this is not refering to any 1 post. I just wanted to voice my opinion on the current situation of SVOU. This is only focusing on the pokemon and not on the council / community managing the tier.
Excuse my English, it's not my native language.
I have been playing SVOU since release, so this format is pretty close to me. That is why I wanted to voice my opinion on its current state.
I am going to start this by saying that I strongly believe SVOU is in a good spot right now. We have pretty spread out usage, and nothing feels unbeatable.
Yes, there are always going to be Pokémon that are better or worse than others, but unlike previous metagames, there is nothing blatantly overpowered. This can be seen in the survey results, where the general consensus among top players, that SVOU is in a good state, is reflected.
The fact that SVOU had so much time to develop led to people adapting to things they previously called overpowered or broken. For example:
Gliscor, who had previously been banned, isn't even considered a top tier Pokémon anymore, because its Swords Dance set can be a sitting duck outside of the Fat matchup, and its support set doesn't feel as unbreakable now that people have learned to play their offensive pieces properly and in tandem with each other.
The same goes for Ogerpon-Wellspring. While it is still considered to be a top-tier Pokémon, people have realized that it really isn't as impossible to answer as it seemed back in the day. The realization that you deal with it via Hazards and Checks, which are easy to fit because they include some of our best Pokémon like Zamazenta, Dragonite, Pecharunt, or Corviknight, and also that many more Pokémon can help in the matchup, even if less intuitively, like Darkrai, Kingambit, Scarf Gholdengo and the list goes on, has made Ogerpon-Wellspring feel much more manageable.
Now, on to Kyurem: the main issue people have/had with Kyurem is its great set variety, because it can basically run everything from Choice Specs, over Dragon Dance and Assault Vest, to Leftovers and Boots, with an unlimited amount of possible set combinations. But the problem that arose was that most of these "more gimmicky" move choices felt pretty lackluster in most matchups, which is why they were replaced with more solid, tried and true options. So while it can happen that your Moltres gets sniped by Ancient Power or your sweeper gets Roared out, these situations should be rare, and you should also still be fine against Kyurem if you have proper speed control and Priority on your team. All this to say that most good teams should be fine against Kyurem if they pack answers to its common, solid sets and have anti-cheese measures like speed control and Priority, which should be on basically any team anyway.
I just mentioned the concept of unpredictability, and that is most people's issue with Tera. But I feel like Tera has become more and more telegraphed the more I play this generation. For example, the Tera type can basically always be guessed or narrowed down to a few options based on the team the Pokémon finds itself on. I personally really enjoy this aspect of making educated guesses based on given information. Also, the turns on which Tera will be used have become pretty obvious as time goes on, because unorthodox Teras have been getting punished by solid team building, and the person who Teras reactively (aka second in this case) is often favored in the exchange.
So we have established that the metagame is currently in a good spot. And while I do enjoy building and playing this format, I can acknowledge that 5 years is a very long time and it makes sense that many people have grown bored of this metagame. So there are a few Bans/Unbans I would personally consider to make the meta feel fresh again.
I have been saying this for a long time and I still believe it: Tera Blast should be banned. So for any of you who have been wondering why I haven't addressed the Dragonite-sized elephant in the room, this is why. Many people have displayed their dislike for Dragonite, and I feel like Tera Blast is the real issue, with Dragonite just being the worst offender of using it, being able to run many different Tera Blast sets like Tera Blast Flying, Fairy, or Ghost. I believe Dragonite would be way less frustrating to go against without Tera Blast being an option. I feel like this is shown by the time when Dragonite didn't run Tera Blast, because back then the cries for a ban were way less common because dealing with it was pretty straightforward. So banning Tera Blast would make great Pokémon like Dragonite and Kingambit slightly worse and way more manageable (especially in the case of Dragonite), but it would also enable possible unbans.
In that case regieleki could be released into the tier without much issue, because it would be limited by the lack of coverage it was designed around. This would give the tier a new form of speed control (a way of limiting offense) and also a way to remove hazards, two of the biggest complaints in the tier.
Volcarona can also be retested in OU if Tera Blast were to be banned, because Volcarona with limited coverage should be manageable even with Heavy-Duty Boots around, as we can see in SwSh OU, but I am aware that that metagame is difficult to compare to SV, so I think a proper suspect test is needed.
Roaring Moon could also be manageable without Tera Blast, because it never felt too broken in the tier until they combined Dragon Dance, Knock Off, Tera Blast Fairy, and Taunt on a bulky Screens Moon.
Screens is another complaint going around the community, with the phrase "ban Light Clay" often being thrown around. While my opinion on this topic isn't as one-sided, I can definitely see where this is coming from. While I think Screens are not overpowered, I am aware that these teams are extremely punishing of mistakes the person playing against Screens makes. This extremely punishing nature can make Screens frustrating to play against and make them feel overwhelming to new players, who are bound to make mistakes. I would not be opposed to a suspect test of Light Clay and I think it's worth considering, but not needed.
Unrelated to Tera Blast or Light Clay, I think Solgaleo can be released into OU. While the OU + Solgaleo format wasn't as successful, many top players agree with this drop.
Thank you for taking your time to read this.
Excuse my English, it's not my native language.
I have been playing SVOU since release, so this format is pretty close to me. That is why I wanted to voice my opinion on its current state.
I am going to start this by saying that I strongly believe SVOU is in a good spot right now. We have pretty spread out usage, and nothing feels unbeatable.
Yes, there are always going to be Pokémon that are better or worse than others, but unlike previous metagames, there is nothing blatantly overpowered. This can be seen in the survey results, where the general consensus among top players, that SVOU is in a good state, is reflected.
The fact that SVOU had so much time to develop led to people adapting to things they previously called overpowered or broken. For example:
Gliscor, who had previously been banned, isn't even considered a top tier Pokémon anymore, because its Swords Dance set can be a sitting duck outside of the Fat matchup, and its support set doesn't feel as unbreakable now that people have learned to play their offensive pieces properly and in tandem with each other.
The same goes for Ogerpon-Wellspring. While it is still considered to be a top-tier Pokémon, people have realized that it really isn't as impossible to answer as it seemed back in the day. The realization that you deal with it via Hazards and Checks, which are easy to fit because they include some of our best Pokémon like Zamazenta, Dragonite, Pecharunt, or Corviknight, and also that many more Pokémon can help in the matchup, even if less intuitively, like Darkrai, Kingambit, Scarf Gholdengo and the list goes on, has made Ogerpon-Wellspring feel much more manageable.
Now, on to Kyurem: the main issue people have/had with Kyurem is its great set variety, because it can basically run everything from Choice Specs, over Dragon Dance and Assault Vest, to Leftovers and Boots, with an unlimited amount of possible set combinations. But the problem that arose was that most of these "more gimmicky" move choices felt pretty lackluster in most matchups, which is why they were replaced with more solid, tried and true options. So while it can happen that your Moltres gets sniped by Ancient Power or your sweeper gets Roared out, these situations should be rare, and you should also still be fine against Kyurem if you have proper speed control and Priority on your team. All this to say that most good teams should be fine against Kyurem if they pack answers to its common, solid sets and have anti-cheese measures like speed control and Priority, which should be on basically any team anyway.
I just mentioned the concept of unpredictability, and that is most people's issue with Tera. But I feel like Tera has become more and more telegraphed the more I play this generation. For example, the Tera type can basically always be guessed or narrowed down to a few options based on the team the Pokémon finds itself on. I personally really enjoy this aspect of making educated guesses based on given information. Also, the turns on which Tera will be used have become pretty obvious as time goes on, because unorthodox Teras have been getting punished by solid team building, and the person who Teras reactively (aka second in this case) is often favored in the exchange.
So we have established that the metagame is currently in a good spot. And while I do enjoy building and playing this format, I can acknowledge that 5 years is a very long time and it makes sense that many people have grown bored of this metagame. So there are a few Bans/Unbans I would personally consider to make the meta feel fresh again.
I have been saying this for a long time and I still believe it: Tera Blast should be banned. So for any of you who have been wondering why I haven't addressed the Dragonite-sized elephant in the room, this is why. Many people have displayed their dislike for Dragonite, and I feel like Tera Blast is the real issue, with Dragonite just being the worst offender of using it, being able to run many different Tera Blast sets like Tera Blast Flying, Fairy, or Ghost. I believe Dragonite would be way less frustrating to go against without Tera Blast being an option. I feel like this is shown by the time when Dragonite didn't run Tera Blast, because back then the cries for a ban were way less common because dealing with it was pretty straightforward. So banning Tera Blast would make great Pokémon like Dragonite and Kingambit slightly worse and way more manageable (especially in the case of Dragonite), but it would also enable possible unbans.
In that case regieleki could be released into the tier without much issue, because it would be limited by the lack of coverage it was designed around. This would give the tier a new form of speed control (a way of limiting offense) and also a way to remove hazards, two of the biggest complaints in the tier.
Volcarona can also be retested in OU if Tera Blast were to be banned, because Volcarona with limited coverage should be manageable even with Heavy-Duty Boots around, as we can see in SwSh OU, but I am aware that that metagame is difficult to compare to SV, so I think a proper suspect test is needed.
Roaring Moon could also be manageable without Tera Blast, because it never felt too broken in the tier until they combined Dragon Dance, Knock Off, Tera Blast Fairy, and Taunt on a bulky Screens Moon.
Screens is another complaint going around the community, with the phrase "ban Light Clay" often being thrown around. While my opinion on this topic isn't as one-sided, I can definitely see where this is coming from. While I think Screens are not overpowered, I am aware that these teams are extremely punishing of mistakes the person playing against Screens makes. This extremely punishing nature can make Screens frustrating to play against and make them feel overwhelming to new players, who are bound to make mistakes. I would not be opposed to a suspect test of Light Clay and I think it's worth considering, but not needed.
Unrelated to Tera Blast or Light Clay, I think Solgaleo can be released into OU. While the OU + Solgaleo format wasn't as successful, many top players agree with this drop.
Thank you for taking your time to read this.
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The change I am the most vehemently against would be a Tera Blast ban, to the point where if it gets suspected, I might consider getting reqs. It feels wrong from both a practical and conceptual point of view, especially since I can predict long contradictory discussions about Tera itself once the generation goes post-CG.
Edit: by the way, notice how the only pokemon Tera Blast is causing issues on is stuff that can boost with stuff like Dragon Dance and have multiple Tera options at their disposal. Banning said mons feels wrong from a practical point of view, banning Tera Blast sounds conceptually wrong as you target the messenger imo, banning Tera is out of the question...
Otherwise, I'd prefer OU to explore potential Uber retests over bans, such as Volcarona, Moon and Gouging Fire. This has been the generation with the most DNB votes as far as I remember, which is a great sign suspect tests are actually well thought out!
Edit: by the way, notice how the only pokemon Tera Blast is causing issues on is stuff that can boost with stuff like Dragon Dance and have multiple Tera options at their disposal. Banning said mons feels wrong from a practical point of view, banning Tera Blast sounds conceptually wrong as you target the messenger imo, banning Tera is out of the question...
Otherwise, I'd prefer OU to explore potential Uber retests over bans, such as Volcarona, Moon and Gouging Fire. This has been the generation with the most DNB votes as far as I remember, which is a great sign suspect tests are actually well thought out!
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Unbanning Roaring Moon would send the people who complain about Dragonite into even more of a frenzy over that mon - after a Dragon Dance and Booster Energy it's going to rip through teams.
As a curveball idea could it be worth looking at Regieleki? It's a massive Tera hog a la Serperior and this thing was banned before we found out about the transistor nerf from 1.5x to 1.3x. It'd bring a T-wave immune rapid spinner that can outspeed Deo-S leads.
As a curveball idea could it be worth looking at Regieleki? It's a massive Tera hog a la Serperior and this thing was banned before we found out about the transistor nerf from 1.5x to 1.3x. It'd bring a T-wave immune rapid spinner that can outspeed Deo-S leads.
Never give up hope bro, never know what may come next. Would definitely keep your eyes on the PR thread
I've been kinda away from things playing ZA OU and then a small break but come back to this discussion and it is refreshing. Take anything i say with a grain of salt as someone that probably averages midish ladder and can only really run up to "qualified" on a good day, but I like the shifting of the opinion from leadership on a Tera Blast suspect. Im a bit torn on how broken I think it is as to whether the i value the policy as written vs effects on a metagame, but it'd just be refreshing to have things put to rest. I know this can be said as a general support for any suspect (just suspect it bro it could be DNB huehuehue), but after like two years of back and forth and no consensus option from the qualified or unqualified playerbase, a blast suspect really looks like the only real option for tiering besides chilling out until whatever the next iteration of current Gen takes with champions or Gen 10 (which I'm not Entirely opposed to, I think things have reasonably settled)
Edit for spelling due to being a filthy mobileposter
Edit for spelling due to being a filthy mobileposter
I support tiering action. I don´t like Tera Blast being the action (and will get reqs and vote No Ban if it happens), but its still better than no action ti get the tier moving. If Tera Bast ends up banned, what should be done in my opinion is:
1. Unban Regieleki. No Suspect Test. No controversy over this Mon, if it kills your Great Tusk with Tera Normal Hyper Beam, thats a reasonable cost.
2. Retest Roaring Moon. I would support it getting unbanned, Scarf Roaring Moon was one of my favorite mons to use and not even close to broken. That being said, it should not be unbanned without a proper test.
3. Regardless of Roaring Moon being unbanned or not, test Volcarona AFTER Moon. I don,t want Volcarona in the meta even without Tera Blast but it does deserve a chance, though not until the dragon gets it.
Nite, with Tera Blast or not is one of the healthiests SV OU Mons, without the move it shouldn,t even touch a survey again. Waterpon and Gliscor are still on my hate list, just like Gholdengo, though I know its not a realistic target. Kyurem is a valid target, but way below Waterpon and Gliscor on the priority list.
1. Unban Regieleki. No Suspect Test. No controversy over this Mon, if it kills your Great Tusk with Tera Normal Hyper Beam, thats a reasonable cost.
2. Retest Roaring Moon. I would support it getting unbanned, Scarf Roaring Moon was one of my favorite mons to use and not even close to broken. That being said, it should not be unbanned without a proper test.
3. Regardless of Roaring Moon being unbanned or not, test Volcarona AFTER Moon. I don,t want Volcarona in the meta even without Tera Blast but it does deserve a chance, though not until the dragon gets it.
Nite, with Tera Blast or not is one of the healthiests SV OU Mons, without the move it shouldn,t even touch a survey again. Waterpon and Gliscor are still on my hate list, just like Gholdengo, though I know its not a realistic target. Kyurem is a valid target, but way below Waterpon and Gliscor on the priority list.
I love snorlax I just wish they gave my boy slack off instead of relying on rest. I’ve also been trying to use him in lower ladder and it’s so funny seeing him put in work
hey. i want to do and say some things.
Fezanskibidi (Fezandipiti) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Roost
- Poison Jab
i mainly wanted to build around this guy, cuz i thought the name was funny. Skibidi is honestly a really neat special pivot that i prefer over glowking. Handles
and checks non hslam 
. Went physical here since i got sick of moonblast not doing anything. pjab is a neat consistent option against opposing fairies while spreading poisons fairly consistently. neat option. Tera water handles 
Samurott-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
I was initially running surf av which i do think is nice but tbh i felt i could do better. so cb was here. its a really solid breaker honestly, since it fully shreds
and stuff like that. tera dark ceaseless is disgusting and lets me play a lot more offensively with this guy. Could def optimize this guy with glasses over cb but for now cb felt nice enough.
Raging Bolt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunderclap
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor
was running helmet
for the most part until kopv18 talked about helmet bolt, so i figured "eh, prob add it on". turns out, it felt really nice for the team. the helmet actually did do some stuff. remember it basically nuked zama down to like 2% after 1 cc. i do love the apple but this guy was also nice. its nice experimenting.
https://pokepast.es/9045cc8eb6bd9be8
https://pokepast.es/84d68e0af80f4e12
ran these two teams to get around top 60-55ish. lot of ladder inflation atm.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2575460058-uqy9qqc4ls1bp5ghyilkgsx3fg5gf33pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2575028907-lrxunq5ks4w3swhn903urt1563qxqj7pw
and some replays.
So to what i want with the whole tiering thing now.
i am personally in support of a tb suspect and ban. As much as
been a pain to build against, it contributes a lot more outside of the tb dd stuff. cb, espeed, all that stuff is actually something i really enjoy about it, why should it have to die for tb's sins? the same can apply to moon and volc. maybe too much to moon, but lets be real tb fairy was the breaking point. I get wanting to keep some sort of balance and consistency, but to basically give an overall worse metagame to retain a status quo shouldn't be accepted. The whole reason dnite was even close to suspect worthy is because of tb. tb has put strain on teambuilding and makes you practically pray its not the right one. Maybe after tb is banned, we can go with oubls. smth like volc moon arch? I'd be down for that. you could prob slot solg there as well.
Fezanskibidi (Fezandipiti) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Roost
- Poison Jab
i mainly wanted to build around this guy, cuz i thought the name was funny. Skibidi is honestly a really neat special pivot that i prefer over glowking. Handles
and checks non hslam . Went physical here since i got sick of moonblast not doing anything. pjab is a neat consistent option against opposing fairies while spreading poisons fairly consistently. neat option. Tera water handles Samurott-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
I was initially running surf av which i do think is nice but tbh i felt i could do better. so cb was here. its a really solid breaker honestly, since it fully shreds
and stuff like that. tera dark ceaseless is disgusting and lets me play a lot more offensively with this guy. Could def optimize this guy with glasses over cb but for now cb felt nice enough. Raging Bolt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Thunderclap
- Volt Switch
- Draco Meteor
was running helmet
for the most part until kopv18 talked about helmet bolt, so i figured "eh, prob add it on". turns out, it felt really nice for the team. the helmet actually did do some stuff. remember it basically nuked zama down to like 2% after 1 cc. i do love the apple but this guy was also nice. its nice experimenting.https://pokepast.es/9045cc8eb6bd9be8
https://pokepast.es/84d68e0af80f4e12
ran these two teams to get around top 60-55ish. lot of ladder inflation atm.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2575460058-uqy9qqc4ls1bp5ghyilkgsx3fg5gf33pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2575028907-lrxunq5ks4w3swhn903urt1563qxqj7pw
and some replays.
So to what i want with the whole tiering thing now.
i am personally in support of a tb suspect and ban. As much as
been a pain to build against, it contributes a lot more outside of the tb dd stuff. cb, espeed, all that stuff is actually something i really enjoy about it, why should it have to die for tb's sins? the same can apply to moon and volc. maybe too much to moon, but lets be real tb fairy was the breaking point. I get wanting to keep some sort of balance and consistency, but to basically give an overall worse metagame to retain a status quo shouldn't be accepted. The whole reason dnite was even close to suspect worthy is because of tb. tb has put strain on teambuilding and makes you practically pray its not the right one. Maybe after tb is banned, we can go with oubls. smth like volc moon arch? I'd be down for that. you could prob slot solg there as well.I wish 1000 paras, focus misses, freeze, and using scald 6 times in a row without burning on your soul for that name.
I completely undo this curse for that beautiful, majestic, glorious and awe-inspiring name.