Metagame np: Stage 20: A Whole New World (April Shifts & Heracross Unbanned)

DugZa

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PU Leader

Hello everyone! With the April tier shifts upon us and dropping some old faces back into the tier, the PU council has also decided to unban Heracross back in the tier. This new thread will be used to discuss the new SV PU metagame moving forward.

Rises ↑ - :arcanine: :uxie:

Drops ↓ - :slowbro-galar: :scrafty: :wo-chien: :vileplume:

Unbans - :heracross:
- - -​

As always, be respectful and follow forum rules when posting. Looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts on the brand new metagame!
 
If i can drop my 2 cents on current metagame, Damp Rock feels like a prime candidate for retesting in current SV PU because the context around its original ban is drastically different from the one we have now. Its ban happened extremely early in the metagame, at a point where the tier was still highly unstable and lacked many of the defensive and offensive tools we currently have. Also worth adding Tornadus as a setter was part of its perceived brokeness, alongside Wetbull and Inteleon. Even the original council reasoning emphasized that the tier was "not well equipped" at that moment. Since then, the builder has gained a much broader range of answers and counterplay pieces, with additions such as Milotic, Toxicroak, Wo-Chien, and Tatsugiri giving teams significantly more ways to punish or absorb rain progress. This alone makes the original quickban conditions feel outdated, especially because the tier today is far better at adapting to strong linear archetypes than it was during those first chaotic weeks.

It is also worth noting the consistency issue in how weather-extending items are treated. The other weather rocks have been allowed and have generally proven manageable, none of them have really been problematic in practice. If the philosophy is that weather extension as a mechanic is inherently too much, that standard should apply more broadly, yet in practice the other stones have remained somewhat fine. That gives me the impression Damp Rock itself may no longer be the real problem.

And if that is the real concern, then the current tiering framework should address the actual offender rather than the enabler. The only Pokemon that still plausibly pushes Damp Rock over the edge is Kingdra, whose combination of speed control, immediate power, and flexibility under rain is still exceptional. But if Kingdra is the sole or overwhelmingly primary reason Damp Rock cannot exist, then this becomes a textbook example of why Smogon tiering generally prefers banning the broken Pokemon over removing an entire playstyle tool. Preserving archetype diversity is usually healthier than deleting a whole strategy because of one abuser, especially when the rest of rain’s components may be reasonable.

There is also a broader metagame consistency argument to be made when comparing rain to other offensive weather structures. Sun, for example, is arguably even harder to switch into in practice because of how immediately oppressive the Fire- and Grass-type pressure becomes, even if it is somewhat less splashable and harder to build around optimally. If the tier can tolerate a weather style that often forces equally brutal defensive concessions, it seems inconsistent to preemptively exclude rain from even being tested, particularly now that the metagame is richer in counterplay.

Finally, the current metagame has viable natural disruption tools that did not meaningfully exist before. Ninetales is now a legitimate and decent automatic snow setter (sorry Abomasnow) that works even better vs rain than sun for example, which means weather wars themselves are a much more realistic and splashable form of counterplay. The ability for a viable auto-weather Pokemon to immediately overwrite rain on entry adds a layer of interaction that heavily cuts into Damp Rock’s old "set once and steamroll" dynamic. Between this, the expanded defensive pool, and the possibility of targeting Kingdra directly if necessary, I feel there is a strong case that Damp Rock deserves to be judged in the present metagame rather than remain banned based on an early-meta environment that no longer exists.
 
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Early thoughts about metagame as usual. Only based on laddering and a few friendly games with good players, I obviously don't consider that to be fully representative of what it will be after tournament development. The new metagame has been fun to discover but it has a lot of flaws, I like how different it feels but it kinda feels "broken checks broken" in a way. There are a few obvious issues and once we adress those, it could lead up to other issues so I'm worried about how we will be able to solve it. The mons we lost in tier shifts were not exactly top tiers but Arcanine was a very positive piece of the tier and losing it enables offensive stuff, which don't have to worry about a big priority + intimidate mon. Same for Uxie which was a decent BO option to compress utility and blanket checking most fighting types. We did gain a few defensive pieces but the metagame feels very centralized for the moment and I hope we can come up with solutions.

Drops :

:Scrafty: This mon is the biggest issue I have with the metagame. These isn't a lot that checks Bulk Up + Rest sets both before and after tera and it exploits a lot of the defensive options we're "forced" to use. Basically, you either have to play Florges, Mudsdale or Vileplume if you want to deal with it mid-term, or try to pressure it offensively, which means you usually have to make huge concessions like potentially losing your item on Redbull, Shaymin, Ninetales-A etc. Heracross can somewhat deal with it but you have to active Flame Orb first. Even Mudsdale doesn't work in a last mon situation and is already tasked to deal with a lot of stuff in the metagame, so I can't exactly call it a good check. And if you add the DD set, which is less problematic imo but still very strong, you end up with a mon who feels like a headache to deal with.

:Heracross: Slightly less free than when we quickbanned it, but still deadly. Facade is a free click into almost all of the meta, but I can concede you're able to somewhat play around it with stuff like Glowbro, Palossand or Amoonguss and there are a few offensive mons that can soft check it, like Redbull (again) or Typhlosion-Hisui depending on positionning. It feels slightly harder to position, mainly because we're not using stuff it can abuse as much as before, and metagame seems to adapt offensively. Its chip weakness is a bit more appearant than before. Also, its sets other than Guts, like Scarf Moxie or Bulk Up Trailblaze are way worse, mainly thanks to Glowbro, so it's a bit more easy to play around. I expect this mon to prove to be broken quickly, mostly because its speed tier is a bit too good for what it can do, but it was worth trying.

:Slowbro-Galar: PU (slow)king is back. This mon is a double-edged sword. It's an insane defensive piece who literally solves all of our issues, providing us with a fighting type check, a Florges check and a toxic immunity that's splashable and also not passive ; but it's also a mon who is extremely hard to play around and potentially too good. NP/CM sets are a menace for our more bulky teams, while AV is very hard to switch into with all of its coverages while being a trade machine that can also regen itself. Don't get me wrong, this mon is not free to use, mostly because its bulk is good but limited and it can feel exploitable by stuff like Snorlax, Hoopa or the broken Scrafty. It has bad weaknesses for the tier, but yeah in the end it's still very hard to play around and should be a controversial presence like before.

:Vileplume: I'm not a fan of this mon, I'm not gonna lie. It's a weird sidegrade to Amoonguss if you want to "hardcounter" physical setup mons, by using Strength Sap + Leech Seed. But here's the thing, this mon can feel irreliable and exploitable. Most of the things it wants to counter are able to play around it, both because they can tera into Poison or Steel (Hariyama, Grimmsnarl, Scrafty etc.) and abuse it (Snorlax and Scrafty can Rest and try to win the setup war, Hariyama can activate Guts, Grimmsnarl can Sub...) or bruteforce it (Rhydon with tera Poison), but also because Vileplume is forced into linear sequences you can abuse with your other mons. It's not a good Pawmot switchin either, unless you predict properly because it just gets 2hko'd by ice punch. Contact punishing with Effect Spore is cute but Regenerator is way better. Growth sets could be okay later on? Definitely not the right time. I don't know, I feel like this mon has a good niche for sure but it will be limited to more defensive structures compared to Venusaur and Amoonguss who can provide more in general. It also hates Glowbro.

:Wo-Chien: Way more specific than I thought. Being such a tera hog in this economy is hard to justify. This mon is so weird to slot and to use. It could get much better than I see it currently, especially if we ban a few things and if metagame stabilizes, but for now i'm dubitative. It's not a real check to anything before tera, except like, Bruxish, Snorlax and maybe Hoopa. It both wants to be Rest to status absorb from Snorlax, Milotic, Palossand, Lanturn etc. and wants to be Leech Seed to be an annoying presence, and if you go for both you give up either on Knock Off which makes you way worse at progress making, or you give up Ruination/Foul Play and you feel pretty passive. You can be fine without Rest, but then your recovery is limited in an environment filled with Grass types. This mon can be great under the right circumstances, being hard to remove and providing a blanket check to many things after tera, but it's challenging to build around and will definitely be nicher than before.

Pokémons impacted by shifts :

The three potential brokens :
:Pawmot: Really appreciates two decent checks being out of the meta, trades it for Glowbro who, despite getting 2hko'd if Pawmot decides to tera, still is able to contain it and force obvious sequences. I think Pawmot is one of the main contributors to the negative feeling I have with this meta.

:Rotom-Heat: I've been known for being really anti-Rotom lately and honestly, I think this mon is at its prime right now. Using Lanturn currently feels bad and Rhydon is once again left out for other physdef ground options to try to deal with Heracross and Scrafty. Maybe we can just accept Balance having a really hard time but if we want to improve meta, I'd like to see this mon being looked at. Not exactly a priority tho, I can agree, and it could be more acceptable if we banned other restrictive presences.

:Florges: Is really good into almost all drops and really likes K9 being gone. Only problem is AV Glowbro (not the best set imo) and overall pressure from this offensive metagame. I still think this pokémon is lowkey busted and at the very least one of the best mons, if not simply the best. CM is great, Scarf is great, Specs has very few good switchins, this mon has the potential to be broken, considering mons like Snorlax and Sandslash-A don't feel at their prime right now.


Other mons :
:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze: Positive mu into most drops. Dislikes Glowbro preventing CC spam again but it's not a huge obstacle either. K9 rising means this mon has less competition for the physical offensive/setup fire type slot, though you could argue they aren't that similar in terms of defensive profile.

:Mesprit: Uxie at home. Literally. NP with max hp max speed has the same stats with slightly better bulk in exchange for a worse speed tier, which is not as bad as I expected. Utility sets don't have the same bulk as Uxie, but they can use Healing Wish, a really underrated move.

:Skuntank: This mon just dropped but honestly it's always been underrated, just a bit specific to fit compared to our other dark options. It's pretty good into Glowbro and Wo-Chien.

:Qwilfish-Hisui: Horrible to use into Scrafty and Heracross, should get much better as a Glowbro answer later if we ban these, just like before.

:Sceptile: :Shaymin: :Venusaur: Specs/Life Orb Sceptile is bad again i guess... I expect Shaymin to get worse in the same way, even though it can at least do something into Glowbro and Wo-Chien, same for offensive Venu.

:Rotom-Mow: Not sure why it rose, it hated all these good Grass types and it hates AV Glowbro just as much. It can still Trick Wo-Chien ig. Not bad but not great either.

:Floatzel: :Bruxish: These two should hate Wo-Chien and Vileplume but actually Volt Turn is pretty good so it's ok. Honestly, don't bother with sets other than Scarf on Bruxish now.

:Hoopa: Even if you want to avoid being poisoned, it's one of the best mons to pressure Glowbro. You have to rely on Focus Blast more than before to hit these annoying bulky Dark types that just dropped. Tera Blast Fairy could be good.

:Salazzle: Toxic sets hate scrafty, NP should be more favored again.

:Snorlax: Really needs tera to do something in the face of Scrafty and Heracross. If Wo-Chien ends up common it could get much worse. Otherwise, pretty good mon to have in a Glowbro metagame.

:Grimmsnarl: Another mon that loves K9 being removed. Band was played a lot more these last months, I expect Bulk Up to be good if we get rid of Scrafty who is the better dark type setup.

:Malamar: Like Grimmsnarl, I expect this mon to be good if Scrafty goes, thanks to being one of the few things with a positive mu into Glowbro, except it actually doesn't like K9 rising lol.

:Braviary-Hisui: Not too bad honestly? The two new darks can't switch into it, the physdef walls get exploited, genuinely threatening after agility, losing a good priority user makes it better and it's somewhat close to Uxie in HO.

:Lanturn: Literally dislikes all drops. If you can keep momentum it's ok, but there is a lot more that can exploit its weak damage output, on top of all the good Grass types that already emerged from previous metagame.

:Ninetales-Alola: In a weird spot. It has a lot of cool MUs but it also doesn't like Glowbro too much. Snow could be worth trying without K9.

:Zoroark: You were tired of these zoromot cores? Too bad, Glowbro makes these cores even better.

:Virizion: Can't touch everything, needs both Zen Headbutt and Stone Edge so it's less free to use Synthesis and other cool moveslots now.

:Lurantis: :Bellossom: :Exeggutor: As the second biggest fan of Lurantis, i don't see it doing anything in a Glowbro + Vileplume environment (maybe we do knock off sets more now? but it feels like it loses the point of using lurantis). Bellossom was already an MU fish and I don't think it can do anything if Glowbro is meta. Exeggutor (who I think was already bad) hates Wo-Chien and Scrafty.

:Palossand: This mon is a good illustration of my problem with current meta. You would really like to use Palossand to deal with fighting types, except it just gets exploited by a lot of other stuff like Heatom, Scrafty, Florges... all of these have answers, but you end up with repetitive cores. So, is the problem the mons that force us to use these exploitable stuff, or is the problem the mons that abuse these forced answers?
I would say the problem is stuff like Pawmot which are just generally too good. Insane balance breakers are theoretically more matchup specific and would be fine according to most people. I still think our top priority should be Scrafty, because it's just way too good at its job and can even be problematic for more offensive teams.
 
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