Metagame SV NFE Metagame Discussion - Dusclops Ban @ Post #180

[Finchely]

i dont rlly have an argument here, I just compiled UMPL NFE usage statistics for my own amusement and figured I'd share them in case anybody else is curious

it's long :worrywhirl:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Quaxwell           |   71 |  55.47% |  45.07% |
| 2    | Tinkatuff          |   62 |  48.44% |  48.39% |
| 3    | Piloswine          |   49 |  38.28% |  55.10% |
| 4    | Ivysaur            |   45 |  35.16% |  57.78% |
| 5    | Drakloak           |   43 |  33.59% |  58.14% |
| 6    | Monferno           |   41 |  32.03% |  58.54% |
| 7    | Dunsparce          |   32 |  25.00% |  59.38% |
| 8    | Fletchinder        |   31 |  24.22% |  45.16% |
| 9    | Thwackey           |   31 |  24.22% |  51.61% |
| 10   | Sliggoo-Hisui      |   30 |  23.44% |  53.33% |
| 11   | Dusclops           |   26 |  20.31% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Girafarig          |   24 |  18.75% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Hattrem            |   24 |  18.75% |  41.67% |
| 14   | Glimmet            |   23 |  17.97% |  47.83% |
| 15   | Scraggy            |   21 |  16.41% |  61.90% |
| 16   | Koffing            |   18 |  14.06% |  44.44% |
| 17   | Frogadier          |   17 |  13.28% |  47.06% |
| 18   | Raboot             |   17 |  13.28% |  29.41% |
| 19   | Krokorok           |   15 |  11.72% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Fraxure            |   13 |  10.16% |  61.54% |
| 21   | Seadra             |   13 |  10.16% |  53.85% |
| 22   | Stunky             |   10 |   7.81% |  40.00% |
| 23   | Eelektrik          |   10 |   7.81% |  40.00% |
| 24   | Pignite            |   10 |   7.81% |  30.00% |
| 25   | Servine            |   10 |   7.81% |  70.00% |
| 26   | Wartortle          |   10 |   7.81% |  60.00% |
| 27   | Duosion            |    9 |   7.03% |  22.22% |
| 28   | Quilladin          |    8 |   6.25% |  37.50% |
| 29   | Mareanie           |    7 |   5.47% |  28.57% |
| 30   | Morgrem            |    6 |   4.69% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Gabite             |    4 |   3.13% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Murkrow            |    3 |   2.34% |  66.67% |
| 33   | Stantler           |    3 |   2.34% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Pikachu            |    3 |   2.34% |  33.33% |
| 35   | Grimer-Alola       |    3 |   2.34% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Chinchou           |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Lampent            |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Naclstack          |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Wooper-Paldea      |    2 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Clefairy           |    2 |   1.56% |  50.00% |
| 41   | Dolliv             |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 42   | Cetoddle           |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 43   | Cranidos           |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 44   | Braixen            |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Cutiefly           |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 46   | Porygon            |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 47   | Charjabug          |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Voltorb-Hisui      |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Growlithe-Hisui    |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 50   | Mudbray            |    1 |   0.78% | 100.00% |
| 51   | Floette            |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Hippopotas         |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 53   | Mienfoo            |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Vullaby            |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 55   | Marill             |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Bronzor            |    1 |   0.78% |   0.00% |

 

[Finchely]

When it comes to hazard removal there is basically two viable and splashable options: Spin Quax and Defog Fletch. My heart goes out to Wartortle builds but they are few, and removal-less Hattrem builds have proved themselves useable but straining. Of the two regular methods of removal only one of them is unaffected by tspikes. And yet, it is still fletchinder; it isn't the most reliable standalone measure. Aromatherapy and Heal Bell are also nearly nonexistent, only adding to the difficulty of dealing with poison. Thus, it becomes imperative that basically every team have a poison type. Tspikes, despite the fact that they don't even appear so often, have a disproportionately large effect on the state of the game such that it's incredibly difficult to justify building without a poison type. I'd go so far as to say that building without a poison type is tantamount to matchup fishing.

It is obvious and clear how tspikes severely limit the defensive capability of certain pokemon, especially quaxwell and still Seadra even though it has rest (forced to click rest a turn or two earlier than it would have is extremely significant), but it similarly also severely limits the longevity of offensive Pokemon in this tier. Fast offensive pivots are already limited enough by their vulnurability to the ever-present entry hazards, and tspikes only limits the number of entries they have by up to several turns depending on how many hazards are already down. This pressures the tier into running HDB on its faster threats (instead of say, scarf), which further has an effect of stagnating speed control and making Drakloak the near-uncontested ruler of the speed tiers. And for the slower breakers such as piloswine and pignite, getting poisoned can similarly be a death sentence due to the fact that should they go down their team may lack a way to break through the increasingly bulkier cores we've been seeing lately.

I do not think that tspikes are difficult to deal with in-game when I myself am using a poison type. What I object to is the fact that it feels so unviable to ever not bring a poison type. Poison types in this tier are not inherently good by any means. They have many good traits, particularly in checking grass and fighting types, but they are not traits that cannot be replicated by other pokemon. That is, except for their ability to absorb tspikes. During building processes, I've found myself with a build that I felt satisfied with, only to realize it lacked a poison type. The team was relatively defensively sound, and I had my fighting and grass matchups covered. All I was lacking was a tspike absorber. I think it is a shame that there are real builds that would provide further depth to the tier, that remain less viable all because they cannot pay the poison-type tax.

When it comes to viable pokemon that learn Tspikes, there are:
- Frogadier
- Glimmet
- Koffing
- Mareanie
- Skrelp
- Stunky
- Tentacool
- Varoom

All these Pokemon either struggle to find opportunities, struggle to fit tspikes, or both. That is, with the exception of Koffing. Koffing is uniquely in a position where it finds opportunities to come in on several top-tier pokemon, and where it isn't particularly strapped for moveslots due to being able to accomplish most of what it needs to do with just sludge bomb, pain split, and wisp/theif. It's very difficult not to give Koffing opportunities either - it's quite difficult to have a team that doesn't include at least one of Monferno, Pignite, Raboot, Thwackey, or Servine. It's not only difficult to build without these pokemon, but it's also extremely difficult to always get the uturn/double switch call every time. Koffing is imo, by far the worst setter of tspikes, and the primary driver behind the issue I've thus far described.

If possible, I would like to vouch for a tspikes complex ban. I think that Koffing has several healthy traits for the tier and I think it would be quite healthy if only its tspikes would disappear, but I recognize that this isn't necessarily a very feasible solution given the lack of evidence for how tspikes is unhealthy on the other setters. If this is the case, then I'm of the mind that Koffing should be banned. It is far too constricting of a force upon the tier, and its removal would be a substantial step towards making SV NFE a more healthy metagame.

A final addendum - Koffing tspikes are not my only qualm with the tier right now. I alluded to it in my first paragraph, but I think that the state of hazard removal in this tier is quite poor, and a driving factor of this is the presence of Dusclops. I would also like Dusclops to be banned, but I believe it to be a less pressing issue than that of tspikes, and as such I will make a longer post addressing dusclops on a later date.

 

[TTK]

Been meaning to write a post for a bit since I read Finchley's, but I never had the time until now but let's actually think about a TSpikes ban at this point in time. We have more than 1.5 years until Gen X drops, people aren't particularly satisfied still with the builder of this tier (I know I'm not), and I've been around long enough on Smogon to have seen in multiple gens a lack of tiering action due to "time" reasons. This is the time now.

I think we are afraid of some sort of tiering boogeyman that will fuck us if we ban Toxic Spikes because it is something that has never occurred in any format in history. I think everyone reading can agree Koffing is not the problem, and banning it doesn't really bring anything positive other than having one less Thwackey check and we still have TSpikers, especially some that have popped up over the course of the generation like Glimmet, the tweakers who used Varoom, Stunky, and Frogadier, a more splashable option compared to the latter two. It's not as if we lack precedent in terms of banning hazards. Little Cup this generation managed to pull off a Sticky Web ban, and seeing how that is our most adjacent tier outside of the levelling differences, if they can ban a hazard that is a negative in the context of their metagame, why can't we do the same if we take the context of our metagame?

Our removal sucks compared to what we had in SS, and especially SM and even ORAS even though it's kinda just Golbat brrr. Toxic Spikes has essentially forced us to always bring a Poison type on deck, which doesn't occur in any preceding generation. Like watch the GOAT Regiboob game from Week 4 vs Nashrock, Nashrock brings no Poison type and the way around it for that team is Magic Bounce Hattrem, which doesn't stop the most splashable Tspiker in the tier... Can you call Nashrock's team terrible or it's a builder diff? Not really, because if we didn't bring Tspikes, then the team can actually hold up well vs hazard stack and it has good mons. If I'm in Nashrock's position, I'm basically thinking to myself "Don't bring TSpikes, don't bring Tspikes" like I'm essentially fishing and it's frankly too risky to risk that, leading to the stage of slapping on a Poison type so you don't go out sad to Tspikes. I believe for the health of our metagame, doing something about Toxic Spikes now will be the best thing going forwards.

Regarding Dusclops, I wouldn't particularly mind a suspect for it either, sometimes I feel Dusclops just mogs everyone in this tier because it's so good at walling things, even without an Eviolite. But I think TSpikes first, everything else later.

 

[sleid]

There's been a lot of talk about people being unhappy with the current metagame and the council wanted to do a survey to get direct thoughts from everyone! Please fill this out to let us know how you think we should best move forward with this tier! SURVEY HERE

 

[PandaDoux]

Results of the Survey
​

We received 27 responses from the survey, thanks everyone who filled it, seeing our community grow and caring about the tier is very heartwarming and we hope it'll continue this way.

Tier/Metagame Enjoyment: 6.93/10
Tier/Metagame Competitiveness: 6.44/10
Overall people enjoy the metagame and find it competitive, however if we compare it to our last tiering survey, it seems like the enjoyment of the tier decreased, despite the metagame being practically the same.

Toxic Spikes has been quite a controversy for a very long time, it has been discussed many times whether or not it is too restricting for the metagame, and how to proceed in case of a ban. However, it seems like the general consensus has changed compared to out last survey, now receiving almost 50% of the community not supporting a tiering action on Koffing, with 37% supporting tiering action. Compared to the last survey where 50% were in favor of a tiering action on Toxic Spikes, with 100% saying Koffing was problematic.
We are aware Toxic Spikes is a controversial part of our metagame, and we are keeping an eye on it, but as of right now we don't believe it to be the priority, regardless of tiering policy.

Scraggy has been a rising star in NFE, becoming one of the most threatening Pokemon of the tier in a couple of months. However it does not seem to be deserving of a tiering action, as showed here, more than half of the community don't believe it should go, with almost a 1/4 with no strong opinion on it.

Since Misdreavus' departure, Dusclops' place in the metagame has become bigger and bigger, making impossible to handle entry hazards without Fletchinder due to our lack of removals. Games with Dusclops + Stack Hazards against balance with no Hattrem/Fletchinder are usually extremely favored to the Dusclops team, making unplayable MUs more common, which is not what we aim for. The survey speaks for itself; almost 67% in favor of a tiering action on Dusclops. This is a lot.

Additional comments/concerns:
- Toxic Spikes x8
- Glimmet / Toxic Debris x2
- Unbanning stuff (Electabuzz, Gurdurr, Misdreavus)
- Piloswine x2
- Screens
- Tinkatuff

As you can see, Toxic Spikes has been mentioned 8 times (out of 27 responses), as i said above, the council will be closely watching it as it is still a controversial topic, but we don't believe it to be our top priority right now. In the same vein Glimmet / Toxic Debris have been mentioned as well.
Despite a recent suspect test, Piloswine has 2 mentions. Screens mentioned once as well as Tinkatuff.

As a result of this survey, the council decided to take a vote on Dusclops:

Which means that Dusclops is now banned from SV NFE, tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement this, thanks!