Suspect SV AAA Suspect #16: Gold (Gholdengo)

LordBox

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:sv/gholdengo:

As a result of the SV AAALT, Gholdengo was chosen as the suspect element! Gholdengo has long been an extremely relevant pokemon within the meta and often controversial element. With an extremely well-rounded portfolio of defensive and offensive typing, high 133 SpA and suitable moveset, Gholdengo leverages this in combination with an extensive list of potential abilities to become an constant obnoxious threat in the builder and in gameplay. From defensive NP sets with a variety of immunities such as Earth Eater, Well-Baked Body, Bulletproof and so on to become a potent setup threat, particularly with items such as Colbur Berry, Scarf Adaptability to serve as a strong cleanup artist and utility mon with TrickScarf/Recover and just the sheer overwhelming power of Choice Specs + damage-amp ability. Each of these sets are extremely powerful and can require differing counterplay which can prove incredibly frustating when there's often very little way to exactly discern the set or various immunities it can be running when a wrong judgement can result in a loss. Aside from the impact in gameplay Gholdengo has had a notable warping effect on the teambuilding process within the tier, with its Choice Specs set being quite notable in how strong it can be and often forcing a resist and playing a significant part in the popularity of Bulletproof, at points promoting sets such as Bulletproof Heatran, and particularly the variety of immunity sets often force various layers of soft-checks just for Gholdengo.

Despite this very well rounded list of strengths, Gholdengo has a list of flaws and arguably healthy traits that has let it remain under the radar of a suspect test until now, most notably its lacklustre speed tier. With a speed-tier under the likes of Great Tusk, and the base 90's/100s and the generally many fast threats in the meta Gholdengo can often struggle against these, particularly limiting its more purely offensive Choice Specs sets and letting offensive teams play more flexibly around them without necessitating strict defensive checks. As for the defensive NP sets, the variety of immunities can make them dangerous to play around and can sometimes force multiple soft-checks, the weaker nature of these sets combined with the slow speed means it isn't extremely demanding to fit these checks and can be pivoted around with fair ease, with a variety of options available in a strong Dark, Ground, Fire, Ghost or even strong neutral attackers such as Specs Tinted Latios proving strong enough to wipe them out. Aside from the impact Gholdengo has on the builder when accounting for it can also be argued Gholdengo provides a significant defensive utility in the tier, keeping in check various threats such as Zamazenta, Deoxys-Speed and Latios that is a healthy contribution to its omnipresence in the builder.

Would the tier be better off without the warping effect of Gholdengo on the teambuilder with its extreme strength and variety of sets it can leverage and the ability and set guessing game it can force on games? Or does its subpar speed-tier and the flexibility of the offensive checks against its offensive and passive defensive NP sets ultimately make it a positive element to keep within the tier? With all this considered it's now up to the community to decide!

How:

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Almost Any Ability before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played Almost Any Ability before the test, full stop.) At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.

Double check that you're listed as a voter! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact a member of staff. If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2850 (with a B value of 5). The deadline for getting requirements will be<t:1776657540:F>

Voting:

Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once the time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account

A super-majority of 60% ban votes is required to ban Gholdengo from Almost Any Ability.
 
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aaa ladder is terrible, ban ghold
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I think there is actually an interesting conversation to be had about the future of aaa after the conclusion of the sus test, no matter the result. Clearly gholdengo is the best mon in the tier, this thing legitimately has like 15 viable sets, all with unique counter play that limits building. Though lets be honest, the only reason this mon is up for debate is because its specs hadron ridiculously hard to account for on top of building for its plethora of immunity abilities.


I think looking at the roadmap of future action is especially important when a meta staple mon like gholdengo is up for debate. Personally, I think this meta does need some sort of shake-up,

DNB -> Personally, I would like to see a deoxys suspect test/quickban IMMEDIATELY (not a year) after if dnb is the outcome so there could potentially be change before/at the beginning of OMPL. The advent of NP sets in tandem with sball becoming standard have just made defensive counterplay to this mon non-existent in my eyes. This is further exacerbated by its ability to run mixed protean sets extremely effectively, limiting more defensive play styles and making building feel much more linear when it is in a meta with gholdengo. (Zama would still prob be sus since deos is the only non-scarf offensive check to the mon, but idt it'd be as egregious as having no ghold)

BAN -> If this ban does go through, the most immediate mon that would have to be looked at is zamazenta, as I just dont see this mon being healthy when pech would be the only viable check. Deos would still be extremely suspect, as ghold could act as a surprise deos check depending on set. However, the pressure these mons exert in builder/game would be lessened without one of them present, so it might be a bit more bearable. Obviously this is just speculation, but these are the most immediate outcomes that I think should be on people's radar, obviously there might be other side effects, but they will show themselves in time.

Personally, I am leaning DNB, because between ghold and deos causing the most strain in terms of building/play, I belief it to be deos. Knock deos also limits the regenvest mons that are good into gholdengo. I am of the belief that while ghold is an incredible mon, its healthy traits outweigh the potency of specs hadron, and what it brings to building expression is very valuable.
 
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mad that i lost one game when i was 9 coil off leading me to lose another vs encore stail when using slow screens :mad: :mad: :mad:


I'll be voting DNB on Gholdengo, I think its presence is a net positive to the tier. Personally I think the only suspicious set that Gholdengo has is its Choice Specs set, which is basically unwallable long term. However I think that Specs Ghold only really has oppressive matchups if you play passively - if you're letting it come in safely for free against say, Corviknight, every time Corv comes in it's not going to be a fun game. But if you predict the Gholdengo switch and double into say, Roaring Moon, the momentum shifts drastically in your favor and hence rewards the better player who got the lines right which I think is a healthy expression of player skill.

As for immunity ability sets, I don't particularly think they're that troublesome. Analyzing the team structure, how your opponent is using (or not using) their Gholdengo, and thus deducing what set / ability the Gholdengo and making the appropriate plays with that in mind is running is another great way to express player skill imo.

NP sets are somewhat fishy - take this game as an example - an unrevealed Gholdengo reveals Motor Drive and proceeds to win. For the most part there are great checks to NP Ghold that can meaningfully force it out or pivot into something that forces it out - RegenVest Prim/Pert/Lu, Gambit, Moon I GUESS but is shakier than the rest. MU fishing will also exist regardless of whether we ban Gholdengo or not.

Lastly, idrt anyones arguing that Scarf sets are broken LOL its a very solid speed control option and just isn't broken at all.
 
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Not sure how yall get ts done so quickly :psygrump:
Also I may have stolen this acc by accident cause i never touched DOU (it was unregistered and never played aaa so im pretty sure this is still valid).

I’m leaning towards Ban if only for my very simple minded reasons. Specs is insane and I don’t want to always run Bullet Treads or one of the vest waters or darks in order to maybe check it. Immune ability sets, mostly levi/eater tbh, are very annoying to deal with imo, being almost impossible to get a spin off on unless you run moldy tusk, and then besides being able to spin block every spinner it’s able to cripple most everything with twave and hex them to death, except tinglu ofc. Nasty Plot is a bit more sus for me in terms of how effective it is, namely cause yes it can basically choose what it wants to beat with it’s ability and moves but at that point it feels like mu fishing and not in gholds favor with how many things can reliably check it or outright kill it.

Anyways my first and prolly only sus test, I helped vote for it so it only felt right to try for once.
Used this team: https://pokepast.es/cf6986ae8d30a85c, i already posted it before but it I may as well post it again for funssies
 
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Went for reqs because I found the perfect alt to use and just kinda had too.

Brought out the classic double Moon team, which still works nicely. Scarf Ghold for speed control, Banded Moon for Big Damage button, Bloodmoon as secondary physical wall and the fuck-up-slow-pivots GOAT, Prank Pecha for ladder cheese, etc.

:ursaluna-bloodmoon: :pecharunt: :manaphy: :corviknight: :gholdengo: :roaring-moon:
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For Ghold, I would vote DNB if the vote was today. It's a healthy part of a lot of comps, and I have rarely seen it being broken in practice. I think it's a much bigger positive to the meta than negative and would rather see it stay in the tier, but will keep reading the thread and am open to other opinions.

Also, if anyone can figure out how to make my Quick Feet Ghold team broken, I would really appreciate it.
 
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Went for reqs because I found the perfect alt to use and just kinda had too.

Brought out the classic double Moon team, which still works nicely. Scarf Ghold for speed control, Banded Moon for Big Damage button, Bloodmoon as secondary physical wall and the fuck-up-slow-pivots GOAT, Prank Pecha for ladder cheese, etc.

:ursaluna-bloodmoon: :pecharunt: :manaphy: :corviknight: :gholdengo: :roaring-moon:
View attachment 821826

For Ghold, I would vote DNB if the vote was today. It's a healthy part of a lot of comps, and I have rarely seen it being broken in practice. I think it's a much bigger positive to the meta than negative and would rather see it stay in the tier, but will keep reading the thread and am open to other opinions.

Also, if anyone can figure out how to make my Quick Feet Ghold team broken, I would really appreciate it.
It's time for bed now grandpa
 
I got my voting requirement yesterday and after some thought since then, I’m leaning towards voting to ban Gholdengo.

The sheer variety and effectiveness of the many sets Gholdengo can run makes it very hard to effectively prepare for. Being able to run many powerful sets both offensively and defensively gives it many roles it can thrive in. Many of sets have different counterplay as well, so there’s no one reliable way to blanket check it.

Whether it is an immunity ability + nasty plot, a choice scarf set, a choice specs set, or one of the many other sets with one of the many viable abilities it can run, it is difficult to account for all of them while team building. Additionally, while you can scout and make inferences as to what set the opposing Gholdengo is, you are have to play very carefully around it until you are certain as if you misread the situation, Gholdengo will easily punish your team and make it game over. It is also relatively easy bluff what set Gholdengo is using and make it harder to predict the specific set.

On top of all this, it’s easily one of the best rapid spin blockers in the meta and makes it incredibly hard for opposing teams to remove hazards.

Overall, Gholdengo is able to excel at many different roles, each of which has different counterplay, and puts too much of a constraint on teambuilding.

I will make a concession that if we do ban Gholdengo, and as others have also suggested, we may want to take a look at Zamazenta’s presence after the fact as outside of Pecharunt and a few other things, there aren’t too many things that can reliably check it if Gholdengo does get banned.

Here’s the team I used: https://pokepast.es/bcdb1d0565853e25
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