Discussion SV OU Tiering Discussion

The SV OU council is adding lax, clean, and zS. These three are amazing players and good dudes. Don’t think much more needs to be said beyond we are leveling up big time.

Per the above post, ausma is stepping down. We thank ausma for her time an effort over the years; she is likely to rejoin the OU moderation team to keep making a great impact on the metagame.

We will be getting to business in the near future, so if you have things to say on the metagame, do so in the immediate future.
 
Only responding to this because you asked for a reply -- if you want to continue on the topic, make another thread since it is not discussing current SV OU, which is the topic of this thread.
A situation where the CG OU stays untouched for more than a year should, in my opinion, be forcibly avoided. Whether it is thanks to some sort of parallel testing ladder (my favourite solution), an official testing server or whatever else the community comes up with, this game needs more mobility.
If you define "touching" OU as a suspect/vote or ban, then this is the first time CG OU has gone a year without activity in the history of the modern OU council (and at least since mid-gen 4)! We will likely have a suspect soon, meaning it will only be 12 months and 1-2 weeks (barely over the year you mention) since the Roaring Moon suspect ended, too. And this is after the most active 2 years of tiering in Smogon history to start this gen.

If you define it as an actual ban happening, then I find this idea entirely off-the-table. You cannot force bans if the playerbase does not want them. You cannot force suspects unless you want another 14% ban vote waste of time either. You would just have a situation where the council or players would be picking to ban things against their own best interest.

Either way, I do not think this belongs in a thread on current SV OU tiering and progression like this. If you want to make another thread on this topic, that is your personal business, but I do not personally support this unless it is framed differently.
On the other hand it's pretty obvious that tiering action is as of now a very slow process, requiring a tremendous amount of time, burocracy and efforts just for a suspect test to be considered.
What...?

We had 17 suspects between the start of 2023 and March 2025. This alone is more than any other generation had throughout their entire span.

We also had 16 quickbans in the time closely following releases of the generation, Home, and DLCs. This also shatters the record of any other generation.

Your point about tiering being slow is just false. Suspects have less red tape than ever before, and this is coming from the guy who has seen more nonsensical Smogon red tape than anyone ever pretty much. The process moves quickly when it is needed!

We did not have anything over the last year because there was never any close to enough support or push. We literally had two threads on Tera Blast that went nowhere despite me actively trying to get things going (unrelated, but the people saying it was broken all generation did not post in any of those threads and I find that hilarious). Now people very understandably want change and are seeing new things after experiences like SPL, the prolonging of SV as a generation, and the further development of the tier. Because people expressed desire for change to me, I posted this thread -- I am already actively working on a likely suspect within less than four days since this thread was posted!!! That is not a slow process.
 
I would like to start by saying i havent voiced my opinion in this thread yet because i know that there are many intelligent players that give unique perspectives that will make you see things in a different light, everyone that has posted here has brought intelligent and unique perspectives to the table and many valid factors coming into play that accurately describes why they feel the way that they do.

I would like to start by directly addressing the perspective "it is against tiering policy to suspect or ban a move unless we find multiple broken users of said move" essentially a complex ban rule, implying that suspecting tera blast goes against this is just wrong, you can love or hate tiering policy all you want, even i had problems with it, but tera blast does NOT violate tiering policy, we have multiple pokemon throughout the generation that were broken by tera blast, examples are regieleki, volcarona, roaring moon, kingambit and most of all dragonite, people tend to argue against this by stating pokemon like volcarona and roaring moon were broken before tera blast was used on them, not realising that the metas that they were broken in wasnt as developed and stable as the meta is today, now this is not the thread for me to list why i believe that these pokemon are no longer broken / was never broken without tera blast, if you wish to challenge my opinion on any of these pokemon i listed here, i will gladly give you my reasons in private, just message me on discord, my tag is stormzone.

Now, i would like to state that both Nat
and Niko have stated extremely valid opinions, Nat said that nintendo airdrops and bulldozes new tiers into VGC often, Niko said that a tier should never go more than a year untouched, both along the same lines of tiering action can always be implemented and is necessary/healthy for a metagame to develop and grow, i strongly agree with both of you, and what i stated in my previous post after OLT cycle 1, is that its not fair to force players to learn a new meta while a tournament is active/ongoing, this does NOT mean i don't support tiering action, this just means that the tiering action should take place in between tours, NOT during them. I would like to further echo Nat's sentiment that i am not happy with this meta either, and there is alot room for improvement, lets not use the narrative that "a metagame is sacred 4 years into it so we should not do anything else" , even sacred things have room for improvement, the meta is in the most stable spot its been since the gen started but that does not mean we can't make it more stable.

Now, we must look at effective options to improve the metagame, we must not act on a list of pokemon that become problematic because of an issue that is becoming more and more visible/noticeable, we must target the issue that is causing said pokemon to be pushed over the line, i can think of two main issues right now, tera blast, and light clay, both enablers of an unhealthy metagame, but since this thread is meant to focus on tera blast, i will strictly focus on tera blast for now, if you wish to discuss light clay for me, message me on discord my tag is stormzone as i stated above. Now, it wasnt until later in the gen that tera blast was rising as the main issue in the tier, after moon was freed in dlc2, it didnt feel broken at all, it was only until people started using tera blast fairy on it, that it started raising concerns among the qualified playerbase, every other moon set did not have a winrate as close to the fairyblast set, nor were they broken, every other moon set barring tera blast had lots and lots of viable counterplay, that pointed the meta in a healthy direction, stuff like weavile, sticky barb clefable, more notably scizor, which by the way also checks kyurem, again if you wish to argue that moon or any of these pokemon that i am about to list was still broken without tera blast, just message me on my discord and i will discuss my opinion, i am trying to be as transparent as possible to this community which is why i am leaving my discord open to any and everybody, now lets move on to the other threat that tera blast broke, volcarona, tera blast broke this pokemon, its the fear of ground blast, ice blast, fairy blast, and even dragon blast/water blast/tera rock terablast, added more variance to this pokemon that it should've, but what does volc to to dragonite/heatran/chomp/physical or twave pult if it cant tera blast them, so much defensive counter play, and meta trends exist today that limit volcarona, like overqwil and rain in general, dnite structures, ceruledge, etc. The obvious threat is eleki, this tier has so many ground types that if it cant use ice coverage its rendered useless into all if not most grounds, and it provides a spinner that threatens gholdengo, which has become a semi issue in the absence of moon/volc especially on terrain with the spdef sets, this is a healthy addition because the meta is centered around hazards and removing them and adding another spinner can only bring improvement to this metagame. Now that i've covered the ones that are no longer ou, let me cover the ones that are, dragonite, without the fear of tera blast flying/fairy/ghost, this pokemon would be an extremely healthy presence in this metagame because it limits many other threats, provides good utility, and now it has less variance in its sets which now make it manageable. Kingambit, which in my opinion is one of the dumbest pokemon ive ever seen enter a generation, but, somewhat, the meta has adapted to it, until it started running tera blast fairy, the main checks to it such as zama/tusk fold or are atleast forced to tera to revenge this set, now i understand that kingambit has alot of set variance even without tera blast, but it gatekeeps so much in this metagame that acting upon it would cause a meta to descend into chaos, it gives me the vibe of GSC lax, or Sun/Moon magearna, we know its strong but its keeping many others from being broken, and of course, it would be a bad idea to act on ALL these just because we dislike kingambit. Another example which in my opinion is my favorite one is kyurem, tera blast ground/electric/fire, i will admit, is hard to prepare for or see coming when you are fearing such powerful special sets like sub tect and specs which occasionally packs glowking support, but i see that as a tera blast issue. And lastly, as mcribs mentioned, tera blast also affects lower tiers, mons like gyarados and blastoise forced to join a BL in-between tier and leave their respective tiers just because of this move.

Weighing all these factors, and the fact that the move tera blast has added so much variance to this tier, it is not adding anything positive to the tier, to me if something is both unhealthy + not useful for the overall growth of a tier, it is time to start acting upon it, yes, variance is good, to those who wish to have a metagame where u dont have to guess sets or u dont want to get caught off guard, even with a full ban of tera, that is never going to happen, every pokemon has different sets and you will never be safe going up against a creative teambuilder, no matter who you think you are, every team can innovate sets even without tera. So with this in mind, i would like to see action on tera blast, this move has become increasingly unhealthy for far too long and has been hindering the growth and development of this tier especially recently, but the reason i brought up variance is because the reason i want it gone is not the variance it brings but the fact that it doesnt bring anything positive to the tier, yes, variance is good, but if it is negatively affecting the tier (i.e. breaking pokemon that would be crucial for metagame development, and pokemon that are healthy presences overall) while simultaneously adding nothing positive to the tier, its time to take action. To summarize, i want tera blast gone because:
1. It is negatively affecting the tier
2. It brings nothing positive to the tier

To conclude this post, i am adding direct support for the action of tera blast, the only regret i have, is not making a post during the last few tera blast threads that have happened in the past, and voicing my public opinion and displeasure for tera blast, and that is because at the time of those threads, i was dealing with alot of upsetting and stressful things irl, and only came to PS to relieve stress by texting with some good friends in stallcord, laddering, and teambuilding, which all simultaneously make me happy, i was not in the mental space nor did i have the mental capacity to provide a solid post with lots of thought put into it, but now, as i am in a better place both mentally and irl, i am able to provide my proper opinion + insight on the direction of this tier. Now, this post was meant to go up Sunday, but after receiving the sad news of our friend's passing in this community, i was heavily mourning, and it delayed this post + many other things that was meant to happen on that day, but now, as ive had time to recollect my thoughts, i am able to post today, thats all i have to say for now, have a good one.
 
Hello guys, I’m not sure if this thread is specifically meant for top players or not, but I am a badge holder and an active team rater of SV OU. I just recently uploaded an RMT(Right here) and the abundance of replays show that I am active in the tier. I’m no means claiming to be a top player or a prominent tournament player but I did have my fair share of high ladder experience so I want to drop my 2 cents here.

First of, the state of SV OU! Technically the state of SV OU is fine in terms of nothing is really broken(few borderlines like dnite for example) and I will admit, it’s easier to teambuild than previously and there is definitely a lot of skill expression in the OU tier and I find building viable teams very easy even with low tier pokemon on the team! However, I think that there is definitely room for improvement in the tier and the easiest way to take a step in that direction is banning Tera blast. I also want to explain the negatives of the tier right now. It’s getting stale because this gen has gone on for far too long and it’s been over a year since we got any real tiering action. It’s causing other players, including me to burnout and feeling exhausted with playing this meta due to threat saturation. I’m also not a big fan of the state of the OU ladder right now. At high ladder it’s pretty much people either spamming screens HO with multiple potential Tera blast users or people running counter teams trying too hard to anti-meta stuff just to cheese past other. There is also the problem on bots still being prevalent on ladder but I won’t dive deep into that as most of it is obviously out of our control.Now speaking about Tera blast. I’m all supporting of Tera blast action because it doesn’t add much to the tier outside of matchup fishing and giving things coverage it’s not suppose to have and SV is such in a stale state and with everybody struggling to get on the same page of what’s the exact problem Tera blast is the easiest target to look at, let’s about it.

1) Tera blast pushes already strong mons to borderline broken. I’m mainly talking about dragonite and kingambit. You see before the discovery of tera blast fairy roaring moon people were fine with dragonite just being ekiller dragonite, but after roaring moon was banned for the exact reason of its Tera blast set that’s when people starting experimenting with Tera blast Dnite and it started to get wild. First it was Tera ghost Dnite I believe then it evolved to Tera blast flying, (because why not give the dragon dancing flying type stronger flying coverage with tera?), then came Tera blast fairy, the set that got roaring moon banned. The next thing you know every single physical attacker was running Tera blast fairy to cheese past prominent physical checks like great tusk & zamazenta. Ceruledge, kingambit 2 already annoying physical attackers to deal with became even more annoying with fairy blast because now you couldn’t even use your tusk or your zama to reliable check these things no more and mind you, these are the main sources of counterplay to these attackers and are on 90% of teams. Even on the special side we have attackers like raging bolt, darkrai, moltres-galar etc using Tera blast fairy to cheese past ting Lu, and ting Lu is suppose to be one of the primary special checks in the tier. Even DD kyurem developed to be annoying at one point. If you ran into the wrong Tera set you were in trouble. Trying to take this on with corv or moltres or a water type like prim or mola? Get hit with Tera blast electric! Trying to take this on with pecharunt or heatran?, get hit with Tera blast ground! Trying to take this on with an air balloon steel type kingambit gholdengo or Tinkaton??. Get hit with Tera blast fire! My point is Tera blast started this unhealthy trend of making already super strong Pokémon reach new heights of ridiculousness for no reason. We are already sweating about specs kyurem in the builder why do we now need to fear monger about what dd Tera blast set it’s going to bring?? Why do we need to fear monger about what dragonite Tera blast variant set we lose to?? Speaking about Tera blast variants dragonites rise in Tera blast opened up to a lot of anti-meta cheese variants to the point where it can basically shut down a lot cplay depending on what it chooses. If it’s covert cloak your hatt nuzzle, garg salt cure and malignant chain pecharunt is useless against dnite and dnite can easily get to +3 and sweep your team with Tera fairy or Tera fly. If it’s lefties then your volt turning strategy or your sand strategy is useless in offsetting dnite multiscale and it finds opportunities to get out of hand, if it’s lum berry and your team isnt healthy enough to take on a +2 dragonite it’s basically over as well. Dont even get me started on the move combos, if it sub Dd and you try to manually status it with toxic thunder wave or will o wisp and you have no phasing moves thats another checkmate. Now to be clear just because im talking about the variance in dragonite which people mainly use in arguments for being pro dnite ban does not mean im advocating for dnite ban. Im not pro dnite ban, im far from it actually i dont think dnite itself is broken at all, im only mentioning dnites variance in moves and items because im using these as examples in the context of it being paired with Tera blast to explain how it can get out of hand. So I dont want to sound like im contradicting myself or arguing for something else.

2) a lot of Tera blast enthusiasts argue that Tera blast adds “creativity” and “fun” to the tier, I would argue the opposite. I would argue that Tera blast adds zero creativity or fun in the tier neither in teambuilding as well. I explained my dislike of Tera blast in my survey response(here) and in the sv OU metagame discussion thread when responding to another users that shared a disinterest in the cheesy nature of the metagame(here) But basically what I’m trying to get at here is that Tera blast offers no skill expression or creativity in the teambuilder. When you see Tera blast you only see a total of 5-7 Tera blast types are used out of 19 possible Tera types(including stellar). It’s either…

-a physical set up sweeper using Tera blast electric to snipe the OU birds like corv moltres Zapdos & waters like Mola prim etc
-an attacker using Tera blast fairy to snipe tusk, zama, ting Lu etc
-a special attacker using Tera fighting blast to cheese past kingambit, Lu, Ttar.
-an attacker using Tera blast ground to snipe glowking gholdengo etc.
-an electric type that can’t hit grounds for their life just giving itself free bolt beam coverage with Tera blast ice.
-a already strong flying type abusing Tera flying when it doesn’t have access to strong physical flying stab for obvious reason(Dnite, Lando, Gyrados for example)

Occasionally you will see Tera fire blast , Tera ghost blast and Tera stellar blast but other than that it’s the same damn 3 Tera types 99% of the time.You’ll never see Tera dragon blast used. You’ll never see Tera steel blast used, youll never see Tera blast water being used, you’ll never see Tera grass blast being used, you’ll rarely see Tera dark blast being used(although I did used that once with reuiniclus on a TR team). All you see is Tera fairy blast Tera ground blast Tera fighting and imo they are very lazy and uncreative. Can’t hit Kingambit or any other dark type for your life? Just slap Tera blast fighting. Swords dance sweeper that can’t hit corviknight or molt? Just slap Tera blast electric. Tusk & zama are the only thing stopping me? Why not just slap Tera blast fairy. Walled by gholdengo or glowking? Just slap Tera ground blast. How anyone hops on the builder and think “Yea this is fun and creative!” Is beyond me, this is the least creative stuff I have ever seen. Now there are some exceptions to this, Tera stellar I think is a cool niche especially with enam. Tera ghost blast pult is also nice and is a big part of Dragapult viability. I also had my experiences with cool Tera blast sets like Tera blast dark reuniclus in trick room. I also played around with Tera blast fire hydrapple Sun which I also found cool. I think there’s also some unexplored Tera options like Tera poison blast aswell. My main problem is that most Tera blast types are basically just used to specifically snipe the same 5 mons(tusk zama Lu kingambit gholdengo) and there is basically a lack of variance in Tera blast set contrary to what the pro Tera people argue, so for me Tera blast gets almost zero points for skill expression or creativity.

Now in terms of how council is handling the tiering, I appreciate guys like Finchinator constantly being transparent and communicating with the OU community and always asking for other people’s opinions on the forums, I can definitely see the passion present. However I am overall dissatisfied with the councils progress on tiering action and I feel like they have been inefficient and sluggish. Like leng loi has pointed out there is clearly some council members that are not as involved with the OU community. When we originally had the first Tera blast debate and council members had a chance to voice their opinions on Tera blast, I recalled only 2 council members (outside of finch) shared their opinions about Tera blast out of the 10+ council members that were there. How will the community achieve progressive action if not even council members are getting involved and sharing their opinions with the community. Obviously opinions are shared with other council members but I feel like if more council members publicly share their opinions on the state of the metagame, there could have been more influence for a potential suspect test on Tera blast or at least proper looking into it. But with lack of council influence and the general OU community having a lot of variances in skill cap, there is not going to be a lot of strong opinions on tiering and it’s going to lead to the indecisiveness in tiering action which we have been struggling with for a whole year. And another thing is, while Nat 's suggested approach to tiering in SV OU may seem radical on paper, but I agree with the sentiment. SV has dragged for far too long and with champions coming out in basically hours now from this post and winds and waves on the way as well, we need to start thinking how can we keep the current playerbase engaged with SV OU and refresh the meta because if we keep this meta in the same state right now, people will loss interest even quicker, ladder would be more dead and with Wcop also coming up soon I imagine people wouldn’t be enthusiastic slotting in in SV games.

This is all I have to say on tiering action for now, thanks for reading my post guys and have a safe champions day!
 
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