Unpopular opinions

[Samtendo09]

I'm generally on ant's side here, and I think I can sum it up as this: in the name of "QOL" and sheer options and a superficial ideal of balance, Pokemon has gotten much worse at generating compelling, emergent stories via gameplay. There have always been issues; for every inexplicably terrible Pokemon like Gen 3 Lileep, there's a grossly overtuned starter like Swampert (my own unpopular opinion is that the starter status quo is one of the worst design choices Pokemon continues to make). Restrictions were always loose and arbitrary at best, to where a Pokemon lacking ideal STAB moves and comprehensive coverage is seen as an unforgivable defect.

But games that 'modernized the formula' only took it further and further. BW took huge strides in filling out offensive options, to where most Pokemon are straightforward beatsticks with no-frills attacks. XY stuffed in as many Pokemon as possible, eliminating a 'baseline experience' that players can relate to each other over, such as memeing about caves full of Zubat or everyone's Sinnoh team. The Switch generations let you just run on up to formerly powerful, elusive, committal Pokemon and snag 'em then and there. Because so many people's Pokemon valuation starts and ends at 'do they look cool,' that became the reality. Utterly interchangeable entries on a list. No implied work or prestige, no positional context, no story to tell. Just the loadout you happened to bring to this grand game of rock-paper-scissors.

People don't tell stories about these games like they used to. While I'm sure a general change in internet culture is a factor, I don't think the games are blameless either. Games are widely mechanically evaluated on 'did it annoy me,' and modern design reflects that, even though annoyance is a premier route to experiences that mean something and stick with you.

Saying that starters the way they are as a “status quo” is one of worst design choices is definitely an unpopular opinion, I don’t agree on that given not all starters are considered as equally viable for in-game. I do think that the designs put too much emphasis on the offensive power of the starters, and not enough support or defensive oriented ones other than the happy accident in Incineroar if you count VGC.

I do overall agree with this sentiment, but compelling emergent gameplay stories are not completely gone either. Legends: Z-A gifted us with Bois the Heracross as a mandatory trade for an each to catch Pikachu (or easy to evolve Pichu), which both creates a memorable experience for players and provide essentially a second starter due to Bois helping a lot for early game and remained viable for lategame. There’s also the horror tales of a Wild Area with the Alpha Male Pyroar and his equally dangerous pride of Pyroar, with how difficult it is to get Skarmory partially because of these monsters of lions.

I do wish we get more experiences like this in modern games though…

 

[Ironmage]

I never found the standard shared narratives all that compelling. I don't have strong memories of using the default options because I'm using the default options when I'm not thinking of anything better. If anything, it's an old shame as to how stupidly I was playing the games. I guess as much as I started with gen 3, I'm a gen 5 guy at heart: pushing mons on the player is a great way to get last place in popularity.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I'm generally on ant's side here, and I think I can sum it up as this: in the name of "QOL" and sheer options and a superficial ideal of balance, Pokemon has gotten much worse at generating compelling, emergent stories via gameplay. There have always been issues; for every inexplicably terrible Pokemon like Gen 3 Lileep, there's a grossly overtuned starter like Swampert (my own unpopular opinion is that the starter status quo is one of the worst design choices Pokemon continues to make). Restrictions were always loose and arbitrary at best, to where a Pokemon lacking ideal STAB moves and comprehensive coverage is seen as an unforgivable defect.

To be fair, it is an unforgivable defect.

We've definitely gone too far in the opposite direction with everything getting Close Combat and perfect coverage with minimal effort, but using say, Fighting mons in RBY legit feels like you're not playing with a full deck because they simply can't exert offensive pressure since they don't have the moves to do so.

As for starters, I can turn a blind eye for that because you gotta give children something that can carry them. Also, Chikorita wasn't busted in GSC and we hear JJK-levels of slander on it to this day like we're talking about freaking Binding Blade Roy or something.

People don't tell stories about these games like they used to. While I'm sure a general change in internet culture is a factor, I don't think the games are blameless either. Games are widely mechanically evaluated on 'did it annoy me,' and modern design reflects that, even though annoyance is a premier route to experiences that mean something and stick with you.

I always bring that up, but the 3DS and Switch games' ridiculously huge dexes make for regions that ultimately wind up losing their identity.

Of course, again, balance is everything. You can't have awful design like BW1 where you're essentially railroaded to mediocrity with little to no other options until you get the horribly busted desert mons.

The other side of the spectrum is Paldea giving players the top 3 regional birds (Starly, Rookidee, Fletchling) around the first city and having their own regional bird (Wattrel) be available around Lv. 20 at best.

Sinnoh gets memed on for the canon experience team, but instead of them, you can get a lot of other cool old mons that were either buffed or not available that early in previous gens.

After all, everyone remembers Infernape, Raptor, Luxray..., but Empoleon, Rapidash, Machamp, Honchkrow, and Abomasnow is a pretty neat team for, say, Diamond. You don't even need to get into the Platinum mons.

You don't get people talking about battles like Jupiter, Fantina, or Cynthia. Hell, we had people telling all kinds of jokes about VeGeeta!


Nah, at this point we need some spice back into these games, they got no kick to it and it's actively harming the experience even on a blind playthrough. I've seen literal children complain that the Switch games are too easy.

 

[tentaghost]

Reading all this just reinforces my belief that pokemon is just a really unfocused game series.

Like it wants to do so many things at once but it cant focus on one thing for too long without starving the other.

"Hey lets focus on making some kind of friction for our games and give them actual substance"

"Oh but of course but we dont want it to have too much we still have to sell ourselves as babys first rpg"

"But sir dont most kids like to be challenged"

"Eh just throw some minigames their way that'll be enough"

"Oh so are we gonna use what we have to make intresting and fun battle gimmicks?"

"nah lets just have a small minigame completely detached from what youre doing in game, and tie it to some goodies so players will have to play them!"

"But what about the competitve scene? We are trying to make this game into an esport?"

"Oh right erm... just throw in a bunch of overpowered items and mons early on so they dont have to worry"

"Wouldnt that kinda undermine alot of the game desig-"

"Eh who cares we're gonna throw all this out next year anyways."

"Didnt you say this was babys first rpg?"


Im tired now..

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

People don't tell stories about these games like they used to. While I'm sure a general change in internet culture is a factor, I don't think the games are blameless either. Games are widely mechanically evaluated on 'did it annoy me,' and modern design reflects that, even though annoyance is a premier route to experiences that mean something and stick with you.

Side note but playing FireRed on Switch with Charmander rn and I had this amazing experience where the power of RNG and luck was on my side. Shamelessly posting something I said on Discord:

Mind you, this normally shouldn't happen. Charmander by all logical fronts is supposed to get creamed by Brock's Onix. But thanks to the power of RNG lining up, with Rock Tomb missing so many times, Ember successfully inflicting a burn which both dealt passive damage and weakened Onix's damage output, and Metal Claw adding a touch of firepower and the Attack boost helping (which I got on Geodude, mind you), my Charmander beat the odds and won against a Gym Leader it was disadvantaged against.

I had a Mankey in back just in case but I didn't even need it! Sometimes, the RNG of Pokémon can be frustrating, but it can lead to really unique, one-of-a-kind experiences in a playthrough that are memorable, and this one left quite a story for me to tell.

 

[AztecCroc]

Side note but playing FireRed on Switch with Charmander rn and I had this amazing experience where the power of RNG and luck was on my side. Shamelessly posting something I said on Discord:

View attachment 821766

Mind you, this normally shouldn't happen. Charmander by all logical fronts is supposed to get creamed by Brock's Onix. But thanks to the power of RNG lining up, with Rock Tomb missing so many times, Ember successfully inflicting a burn which both dealt passive damage and weakened Onix's damage output, and Metal Claw adding a touch of firepower and the Attack boost helping (which I got on Geodude, mind you), my Charmander beat the odds and won against a Gym Leader it was disadvantaged against.

I had a Mankey in back just in case but I didn't even need it! Sometimes, the RNG of Pokémon can be frustrating, but it can lead to really unique, one-of-a-kind experiences in a playthrough that are memorable, and this one left quite a story for me to tell.

Gen 3 Rock Tomb is as accurate as Stone Edge and as strong as Rock Throw. It's pretty likely.

 

[Samtendo09]

I guess as much as I started with gen 3, I'm a gen 5 guy at heart: pushing mons on the player is a great way to get last place in popularity.

WDYM by that? If pushing mons by making them the only available options for the player at the early game or having a very high presence in too many routes, yeah I can see that as a problem that just pushes players away from them.

If pushing mons on the player in general though, I believe that can only be an issue if it is like BW1 where those Pokémon are the only ones available in the PokéDex pre-endgame, period, though obviously will not work at all if Dexit is in effect.

Putting the new Pokémon front and center, without making these the only one available in the PokéDex, can help give a region an identity even with the bigger Dex totals in XY onward. Gen 6 dexes onward, for the most part, suffered because of making their newer mons rarer, more difficult to find and found much later than they should be, resulting in fewer standouts compared to older generations’ Pokémon.

 

[Bakugames]

One of my takeaways from Pokopia's roaring success is that the idea of an RPG set in a world of talking Pokemon with a well-developed story like PMD urgently needs to be revisited. The unpopular opinion is that I don't think a full-bore PMD5 would work, I want a reboot/spiritual successor franchise with modern 3D graphics and a gameplay loop more palatable to the general gaming public.

the success of pokopia shows pmd fans dont actually (ON AVERAGE i know ppl that go crazy bananas for it) care one bit about the gameplay and even some of the characteristic tropes of pmd. they care about being funny pokemon in a world where everyone is a funny pokemon and they can have their furry utopia

 

[ant4456]

the success of pokopia shows pmd fans dont actually (ON AVERAGE i know ppl that go crazy bananas for it) care one bit about the gameplay and even some of the characteristic tropes of pmd. they care about being funny pokemon in a world where everyone is a funny pokemon and they can have their furry utopia

super mystery dungeon has awesome gameplay but if you ask most of my fellow pmd fans they think it sucks and only actually wanna play explorers of sky, a game where you just use the same moves over and over

PSMD really makes you FEEL like an unevolved pokemon, because you are, its the only game where you don't have literally legendary statlines lmao

i love pmd but a lot of pmd fans are actually just explorers of sky fans (because its the best fanfic bait and admittedly has the most polished story of them) (and if you dont care abt the gameplay which most dont its just challenging enough that you can make memes about "wow omg the final boss is so hard" but also do it first try with) i love eos but smd is just as good

 

[Bakugames]

super mystery dungeon has awesome gameplay but if you ask most of my fellow pmd fans they think it sucks and only actually wanna play explorers of sky, a game where you just use the same moves over and over

PSMD really makes you FEEL like an unevolved pokemon, because you are, its the only game where you don't have literally legendary statlines lmao

i love pmd but a lot of pmd fans are actually just explorers of sky fans (because its the best fanfic bait and admittedly has the most polished story of them) (and if you dont care abt the gameplay which most dont its just challenging enough that you can make memes about "wow omg the final boss is so hard" but also do it first try with) i love eos but smd is just as good

i loved smd!! i liked how it felt a lot more strategic and harder than older games and the story was pretty fun. it wasnt insaaaane or anything but i liked what they did with it and the npcs were really charming.

but also i do love mystery dungeon. I played old non pmd mystery dungeons and theres something about the genre that scratches an itch... i love u chocobo md

 

[pika pal]

the success of pokopia shows pmd fans dont actually (ON AVERAGE i know ppl that go crazy bananas for it) care one bit about the gameplay and even some of the characteristic tropes of pmd. they care about being funny pokemon in a world where everyone is a funny pokemon and they can have their furry utopia

"Pokopia doing an aspect well proves most people didn't care about the other aspects" is a take alright.

Here's my hot take: Super Mystery Dungeon supposedly being better as the 4th entry in a sub-series 6 years after the one with the best reception is barely an accomplishment. I have tolerance for slow beginnings and I still dropped off Super incredibly fast, and everything just felt like "the old game but we slowed/dumbed it down" between the lack of item variety or IQ for the Emera, glacial leveling, and the new recruitment system. I also just found no charm in the early game or cast compared to OG or Explorers, which is kind of a problem if "Funny Pokemon friends" is supposedly the only part anyone evidently cares about.

 

[Bakugames]

"Pokopia doing an aspect well proves most people didn't care about the other aspects" is a take alright.

Everytime I talk about pmd to fans, the average take is that the gameplay is either middling or straight up Bad, and that the stories are the only thing that really shine. PMD fans keep begging for a new game, but hate the new modern stories And gameplay And remake stories. The only pmd game they want is explorers 2 where nothing changes but somehow it feels like just how they played it all those years ago. They dont want pmd games, they want the wonder and fun of being a pokemon in a pokemon world and doing tasks/seeking a story with these pokemon friends.

Like, theres a reason the average output of a pmd fan is usually storyheavy, with very little emphasis on the dungeon parts: fancomics, storyheavy fangames, ocs, ship art etc. Output thats interested in the gameplay is more likely to be from someone who never played or didnt care for pmd until they decided to do a fun kaizo challenge, and those players are very passive about pmd and not really clammering for new games

 

[WinterArcanine]

I like the PMD gameplay (probably more than the main series games tbh) but yeah, the main thing I like it for is the world. Playing as a Pokemon in a world of only Pokemon where they all speak and stuff is the thing I love about it and wish there is more of in the franchise. Actually, that's kinda the case with Pokopia too tbh.

 

[ant4456]

i still think its crazy pokopia you play as a weird ditto human thing and not a pokemon it would make a trillion dollars if you could play as a bunch of pokemon

 

[Ironmage]

There's also a pretty real risk of PMD story and gameplay being zero-sum because of how the gameplay is. Items being a big part of your power means that failures can be a pretty significant power loss (either losing important items as the punishment or just straight up having consumed them) that takes some time to rebuild from. Fine if you're just doing random missions or the fully roguelike postgame dungeons, less fine when the story's desire for urgency or isolation is in conflict with that required downtime.

 

[WinterArcanine]

The way items in PMD are in general is probably my least favorite thing about those games, it adds so much stress even if you don't die or lose too many of them and stuff.

 

[Hugin]

Reading all this just reinforces my belief that pokemon is just a really unfocused game series.

I'm really shocked they haven't done a lot to spin off side series aimed at different markets, honestly. Champions breaking Competitive away from the mainline games feels like something that should have happened in Gen 5 or so. Everyone calls for battle facilities to return, Stadium is still beloved, why not make a whole game about PvE on perfectly even terms using optimized mons? Let the mainline games be made by a single team focused on that and on making them the highest-quality "Kid's RPG" they can, and then sell games focused on other aspects of the franchise to everyone who still loves Pokemon but has graduated past that difficulty.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Playing as a Pokemon in a world of only Pokemon where they all speak and stuff is the thing I love about it and wish there is more of in the franchise.

Even after Pokopia this is such a stunningly underexplored concept. Literally just that game, PMD and Pokepark. The potential is basically limitl-

Wait. Dude. Oh my fucking god I literally JUST had an epiphany.

Do you know what would nuke literally every streaming service? Netflix crashing basically every new episode? A Pokemon toddler's cartoon. Pikachu and his Kanto starter friends carrying the tots through educational adventures, helping a new Pokemon each week. Gimmighoul teaches math through coin-related arithmetic problems, Ms. Hatterene reads classic children's fables such as The Ugly Ducklett and The Three Little Tepigs.

Cocomelon is unironically fucking dead if they ever do this. No parent will be allowed by their kids to watch anything else again.

 

[doipy hooves]

Even after Pokopia this is such a stunningly underexplored concept. Literally just that game, PMD and Pokepark. The potential is basically limitl-

Wait. Dude. Oh my fucking god I literally JUST had an epiphany.

Do you know what would nuke literally every streaming service? Netflix crashing basically every new episode? A Pokemon toddler's cartoon. Pikachu and his Kanto starter friends carrying the tots through educational adventures, helping a new Pokemon each week. Gimmighoul teaches math through coin-related arithmetic problems, Ms. Hatterene reads classic children's fables such as The Ugly Ducklett and The Three Little Tepigs.

Cocomelon is unironically fucking dead if they ever do this. No parent will be allowed by their kids to watch anything else again.

https://www.youtube.com/@pokemonkidstv

There's also a pretty real risk of PMD story and gameplay being zero-sum because of how the gameplay is. Items being a big part of your power means that failures can be a pretty significant power loss (either losing important items as the punishment or just straight up having consumed them) that takes some time to rebuild from. Fine if you're just doing random missions or the fully roguelike postgame dungeons, less fine when the story's desire for urgency or isolation is in conflict with that required downtime.

The way items in PMD are in general is probably my least favorite thing about those games, it adds so much stress even if you don't die or lose too many of them and stuff.

I have a similar sentiment with bosses boiling down to seed checks as the lasting impression I had for a while, though incidentally I very recently played through TheZZAZZGlitch's fools2026 GBA RRT hack/event, which is a standalone 100 floor challenge with checkpoints and some altered mechanics, and it actually gave me a better impression of the dungeon gameplay after being pretty rusty with PMD and mostly just having played the Explorers main campaign up to the final boss last decade. The potential in enemy variety with certain abilities to counter status moves like Sing and Attract stuck out to me sometimes as a knowledge check, even stuff like Magnitude hitting Dig is relevant, and the constant presence of traps really encourages decision making on the fly on how to get out of floors and forcing you to explore efficiently, or using some counterplay items as they come while managing a very limited toolbox.

Like, theres a reason the average output of a pmd fan is usually storyheavy, with very little emphasis on the dungeon parts: fancomics, storyheavy fangames, ocs, ship art etc. Output thats interested in the gameplay is more likely to be from someone who never played or didnt care for pmd until they decided to do a fun kaizo challenge, and those players are very passive about pmd and not really clammering for new games

So yeah I guess I represent the latter side of this.

 

[tentaghost]

The way items in PMD are in general is probably my least favorite thing about those games, it adds so much stress even if you don't die or lose too many of them and stuff.

To be fair thats kinda how mystery dungeon games are, ive played izuna on the ds and i can tell you, PMD is fairly forgiving for a mystery dungeon game.

(Like seriously imagine if in PMD enemies could just attack and break your items directly and sometimes your characters levels get reset all the way to 1 for no reason)

 

[ant4456]

I'm really shocked they haven't done a lot to spin off side series aimed at different markets, honestly. Champions breaking Competitive away from the mainline games feels like something that should have happened in Gen 5 or so. Everyone calls for battle facilities to return, Stadium is still beloved, why not make a whole game about PvE on perfectly even terms using optimized mons? Let the mainline games be made by a single team focused on that and on making them the highest-quality "Kid's RPG" they can, and then sell games focused on other aspects of the franchise to everyone who still loves Pokemon but has graduated past that difficulty.

it does feel like we're actually getting to this tbh, I feel like Pokopia is gonna become an A-Lister "Every Nintendo Console Gen" pokemon series, we got Legends which is finding its identity as more Action RPG focused, Champions as the classic battle system, I'm hoping for a more slow paced and intentional/detailed game which I'm probs not gonna get unfortunately, but we are getting more variety with actual budgets than ever tbh

 

[CynicalGiant]

I think people are too quick to assume the next legends title is going to be like legends-za and not just do its own thing in a completely different way again.

 

[Bakugames]

Idk if this is an unpopular opinion per se but I don't know where else would I put it. A continuation of what I was talking with ant in the champions thread, I guess.

I think a lot of people have a very black and white (heh) view on pokemons battle system, i.e that it shouldnt be changed at all or that it should be thrown away, but I believe that pokemons system can be explored way further than theyve currently done, without being remade away from turn based jrpg. We can combat the repetitiveness of this franchise without taking away what I think is one of the best turn based battle systems in current gaming

(Sorry if this sounds wishlisty, not all of these are things i Want/Need in a game, rather options and examples that pokemon could take)

Incorporating bring x pick y -> This format is honestly one of the best things outta bss and vgc, and while you cant really compare the mindgames of facing another player, limiting someones team to a smaller synergy and removing the numbers advantage many players would have in boss battles is really awesome... could also make for fun gym leader strategies that require less teambuilding work because they only have to fit certain combos

New wincons -> I find that one of the most fun ways to alter the dynamic of monster tamers is having a wincon that isnt just killing everyone on the other side of the team. Beastieball does it in a fun way: Its a volleyball beast tamer, so it works with a 3 point set, first to two wins, and the way you get points is either by knocking out a foe or hitting the ball on the court. I think something like that would not only freshen up the battles, but you could link it to each regions lore and culture: galar could have soccer inspired goals, maybe you could knock out your foes in different ways in alola based on hawaiian wrestling, etc etc.

Bring!! Back!! Your weird formats!!! -> if they dont make a gym leader force you on inverse battles in wiwa ill kill someone in this forum and i will not be telling who. Genuinely though im so annoyed that after doubles they pretty much gave up on incorporating any of their fun concepts for new battle systems in the story/bosses. Idgaf if itd make the little kids cry and shit their pants. #fuckemkids #torturethosekids #messwiththeirhead

 

[CTNC]

(Replying here instead of the thread it was posted because my reply definitely belongs here.)

At this point if WiWa is shit then I'm just going to pretend Pokemon ended at USUM with the Legends games serving as epilogues to tie up mythology loose ends

The massive hot take among people thinking like this is I'm going to pretend they ended with SwSh.

Restricted Sparring alone makes SwSh worth counting.

 

[Yung Dramps]

(Replying here instead of the thread it was posted because my reply definitely belongs here.)

The massive hot take among people thinking like this is I'm going to pretend they ended with SwSh.

Restricted Sparring alone makes SwSh worth counting.

Honestly my comment was motivated in large part by a lot of meta-significant elements of USUM: It's the enhanced version of the 20th anniversary game, the last mainline game on a pure handheld and the last to have every Pokemon that existed up to that point programmed in. You can end your experience with one more Red & Blue fight as well as have final showdowns with all the evil team leaders wielding mascot legendaries.

Something oddly symbolic about this being the first and last Ultra Necrozma appearance