Any score that ends with .5 is a tie, and ties are broken by a third party who ultimately decides where that pokemon is ranked
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Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1335))
- Thread starter Shaymin Sky
- Start date
There are a ton of weird rises and drops here as well as some pokemon that I think should have risen up but didn't.
Kyurem rising is pretty weird to me since not much has changed about it besides the introduction of AV sets and I don't think it is a big enough factor to make it rise.
Wogerpon falling is also a little weird, but I can kind of understand it given the competition from regular Ogerpon.
I also think it is crazy that Kyurem rose and Pecharunt didn't since it definitely deserves S- by now imo.
Darkrai falling is strange considering it has a lot of solid sets (me personally I like nasty plot plus wisp a lot) but I guess I can see it.
Hamurott should not have risen out of A- imo. Ting Lu and Gliscor are still overall more appealing spikes setters on most teams whereas Hamurott is only definitely better on offense teams that aren't ho.
Then there is the biggest crime of them all. Zapdos falling to A- is already unwarranted but how does it fall while Moltres stays? Moltres is not that much better than Zapdos and arguably it is a bit worse.
Skarmory and Garchomp rising is also strange since Skarmory is pretty much outclassed by every hazard setter and Corviknight while Garchomp is outclassed defensively by Ting Lu and Gliscor while also being outclassed offensively by Dragonite and Kyurem. I don't think anything has changed about either mon to make them rise.
I am also not sure about Volcanion rising but maybe there is some hidden tech that I am missing since I don't see it often.
Scizor dropping is pretty weird considering that Kyurem did rise (even if I disagree with said rise) and it has solid match ups into other common pokemon like Dragonite and Iron Valiant.
Finally, Weavile dropping is also weird imo since it also has some solid match ups, but I guess it is a bit more understandable since Kyurem exists still.
Kyurem rising is pretty weird to me since not much has changed about it besides the introduction of AV sets and I don't think it is a big enough factor to make it rise.
Wogerpon falling is also a little weird, but I can kind of understand it given the competition from regular Ogerpon.
I also think it is crazy that Kyurem rose and Pecharunt didn't since it definitely deserves S- by now imo.
Darkrai falling is strange considering it has a lot of solid sets (me personally I like nasty plot plus wisp a lot) but I guess I can see it.
Hamurott should not have risen out of A- imo. Ting Lu and Gliscor are still overall more appealing spikes setters on most teams whereas Hamurott is only definitely better on offense teams that aren't ho.
Then there is the biggest crime of them all. Zapdos falling to A- is already unwarranted but how does it fall while Moltres stays? Moltres is not that much better than Zapdos and arguably it is a bit worse.
Skarmory and Garchomp rising is also strange since Skarmory is pretty much outclassed by every hazard setter and Corviknight while Garchomp is outclassed defensively by Ting Lu and Gliscor while also being outclassed offensively by Dragonite and Kyurem. I don't think anything has changed about either mon to make them rise.
I am also not sure about Volcanion rising but maybe there is some hidden tech that I am missing since I don't see it often.
Scizor dropping is pretty weird considering that Kyurem did rise (even if I disagree with said rise) and it has solid match ups into other common pokemon like Dragonite and Iron Valiant.
Finally, Weavile dropping is also weird imo since it also has some solid match ups, but I guess it is a bit more understandable since Kyurem exists still.
I don’t know how controversial this is, but I question Zamazenta’s placement as top 1. The tier isn’t exactly scrapped for good fighting type options or revenge killers, nor is preparing for Zama anywhere near difficult. Zama’s coverage is very middling. A BodyPress Zama Crunch isn’t even favored to 2HKO minimum invested Gholdengo, and stone edge isn’t a 2HKO on defensive zapdos. This alongside it having huge 4MSS makes an unsupported Zama very easy to pivot around - not exactly the hallmark of a top 1.
In particular I think the BodyPress set is overrated. Its coverage issues are exacerbated even more when its not investing in its attack, and if you can’t switch into a boosted BP, then your team probably has problems with other cleaners like Iron Valiant. It just gets walled too easily by very common mons, and is destroyed by status hard (though tera does alleviate this). Dragonite and Kingambit are far more splashable than Zamazenta in the cleaning department, and while yes its a great revenge killer, there are a lot of those.
In particular I think the BodyPress set is overrated. Its coverage issues are exacerbated even more when its not investing in its attack, and if you can’t switch into a boosted BP, then your team probably has problems with other cleaners like Iron Valiant. It just gets walled too easily by very common mons, and is destroyed by status hard (though tera does alleviate this). Dragonite and Kingambit are far more splashable than Zamazenta in the cleaning department, and while yes its a great revenge killer, there are a lot of those.
What is the argument against having Great Tusk rated S? As someone who doesn't have the most experience with gen 9 OU, I'm genuinely asking.
From my perspective, it is the MOST viable Pokemon in the tier, as it is easily the best hazard remover and arguably the best SR setter as well. It also fills essential defensive and offensive roles for every team: physical wall, electric immunity, and offensively checks or forces teras from other top threats such as Ghold, Kinggambit, Raging Bolt, Dragonite, etc.
It has phenomenal STAB moves, excellent all around coverage, and great utility options if you want (knock off, taunt, and roar are all uncommon on Tusk mainly because its main moveset is so dang good). It has multiple viable sets (offensive utility, booster energy, scarf, bulk up, defensive helmet) and sees widespread play on basically every archetype except stall.
My sense is that people take for granted how important Tusk is in OU, particularly in regards to setting and removing hazards. The usage stats reflect this too as Tusk clears the rest of the meta by a wide margin. Very curious to hear the argument for keeping it in S- as opposed to S.
From my perspective, it is the MOST viable Pokemon in the tier, as it is easily the best hazard remover and arguably the best SR setter as well. It also fills essential defensive and offensive roles for every team: physical wall, electric immunity, and offensively checks or forces teras from other top threats such as Ghold, Kinggambit, Raging Bolt, Dragonite, etc.
It has phenomenal STAB moves, excellent all around coverage, and great utility options if you want (knock off, taunt, and roar are all uncommon on Tusk mainly because its main moveset is so dang good). It has multiple viable sets (offensive utility, booster energy, scarf, bulk up, defensive helmet) and sees widespread play on basically every archetype except stall.
My sense is that people take for granted how important Tusk is in OU, particularly in regards to setting and removing hazards. The usage stats reflect this too as Tusk clears the rest of the meta by a wide margin. Very curious to hear the argument for keeping it in S- as opposed to S.
I'm inclined to agree. Zama is very good but I don't think it puts more strain on teambuilding than other top threats like Wogerpon or Gholdengo, particularly in a metagame where tera ghost is such an easy bring.
I wouldn't really see
being at S. Let me explain (clears throat).The problem is that specifically, Ground/Fighting, while amazing offensively, isn't really the best. It's not really Ice/Ground, Electric/Ice or Ghost/Fighting levels of crazy. It's a STAB combo notoriously walled by both Bug and Flying (Flying-types are very common in this tier), and Bug isn't exactly really common. Although I do agree Great Tusk has amazing STAB moves and excellent coverage. Knock and rocks for days.
Tusk also suffers from its pretty bad defensive typing and terrible special bulk, which results in it dying from even resisted special hits, despite the amazing physical bulk.
It is also pretty dang slow without Rapid Spin (which every tusk runs anyway because removing hazards is very important), meaning that without the speed boost coming from it, it can't really reliably sweep, especially you are running Bulk Up sets.
Despite these flaws, I still think Tusk is very, very strong. It's compressed as the ultimate glue pokemon with a great offensive typing, amazing coverage moves (ice spinner, knock, head smash etc), utility moves too (roar, rapid spin, rocks, taunt). The problem is that specifically there are a few teams that Treads is better on.
and 
are the better sweepers due to Dragonite's Multiscale ability, priority in Extreme Speed, which is powered up by Tera Normal, and a lot of great moves in earthquake, ice spinner, encore, roost etc.Anyways uhh... my talk of what holds tusk back over? still an excellent offensive and utility pokemon with a very good stat spread
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Zamazenta is the single most splashable pokemon in the tier and it's not really close. You say "tier isn’t exactly scrapped for good fighting type options or revenge killers" but Zamazenta is bar none the best fighting type in the tier, and is a significant source of role compression, and nothing else quite does what it does. It provides a soft check to a huge range of threats all in one slot because of its near matchless speed tier (only surpassed by Dragapult and Deoxys-S naturally) and great natural bulk. It's speed control, and it does this very well. The tier is riddled with excellent dark types which it handles well, and there's no shortage of potent physical attackers which Zama provides a check to. I mean off the top of my head, this mon soft checks
Kingambit, Great Tusk, Kyurem, SD Gliscor, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Ceruledge (using Roar to phase, but ID also generally matches SD barring crits), Darkrai, Samurott-Hisui, Ogerpon-Teal, Rillaboom, Ursaluna.
That's with standard IDBP sets btw. All-out-Attacking sets can even emergency check stuff with fast invested CCs or assorted coverage. Of course it doesn't do this all on its own, it'll get overwhelmed if relied on solely. But it can take the burden off of other mons on the team if necessary in a game.
As far as issues with IDBP, yeah it's something that isn't hard to prep for in a vacuum, until you realize most things used to check it are relied on to handle other threats as well that are found on Zama's team, so they have to be very careful not to get too worn down or worse, KOd, before Zama is down. Because of this, IDBP still commands a large amount of respect as a wincon and forces players to play around its presence right from the start. And with different Teras and move changes, it can just make its way past a lot of supposed counterplay anyways. Rest sets are a good example of this.
Dragonite and Kingambit ARE technically more dangerous, but that has more (mostly actually) to do with Tera Blast letting them cut past counterplay. Zama as a whole does so much in one slot, more than basically anything I'd say, and is an extremely good high value mon. Like I said, there really isn't another mon that does what it does.
Also gonna touch on this quickly but Tusk is fine in S- and not S. It's absolutely very splashable and useful for a wide range of structures, but it isn't something a team outright NEEDS and plenty of teams go without it. It does have competition for its teamslot at times, and its defensive typing is poor and quite exploitable. It suffers quite a bit from 4MSS at times, and can really struggle to fit all you'd want. No Ice Spinner is food for Gliscor (especially Toxic) as well as Landorus-T and Dragonite. No Knock Off causes issues with making progress into bulkier teams whose Tusk check is very sturdy with Boots (Zap/Molt). While it is more common now, some don't pack Close Combat and lacking it means Ogerpon-W can quite nicely switch in (also lacking CC means you don't instantly threaten Kyurem even if you're speed boosted).