I've been working on Skarm + Gar + Ogre for quite a while, and this is the best
version I've come up with. One of the most significant issues with rain fat is
mixed attackers with Thunder, specifically DeoA, so I decided to try Salamence
in the final slot. Salamence improves the Spell Tag Thunder DeoA matchup
significantly, and has a number of other desirable traits, including Wish, and
checking Rayquaza, Ghost+Fire Groudon, and general physical threats. Wish in
particular lets the team play somewhat more aggressively and later heal HP
lost, and generally give Gengar and Skarmory, which otherwise don't have
recovery, increased ability to function more effectively long-term.
https://pokepast.es/4839a00ad52f25d7
Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 SpA / 128 SpD / 96 Spe
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Toxic
- Dragon Claw
Latias is the Mewtwo countermeasure primarily. Since rainstall has Kyogre as a
backup check to opposing SubCM Ogre, Latias can be sacced to lead M2 without the
team falling apart to Kyogre later on. Nevertheless, the team would really
prefer to have Latias around for a couple of auxiliary threats, such as SubPet
DeoA, CM Water Spout Kyogre, and opposing Latis; and teams that run lead M2 +
one of these can be difficult. The EVs let Latias outspeed neutral Ogre and live 2 +1
SubCM M2 Ice Beams, with the rest put in SpA. Toxic is here instead of Roar to
more concretely threaten SubCM Ogre / M2.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 16 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Roar
Kyogre is a general backup check to various threats and keeps Rain up. Its
primary role in the builder is to check SubCM Ogre, but a number of physical
threats can be beaten if push comes to shove. Calm is used for a bit more
resilience to SubCM Ogre attacks, and also the ability to push past weaker
special attackers trying to check it if it gets enough CMs. Kyogre also beats
Metagross alongside Skarmory, and can handle Pokemon like CM Refresh Latias,
weakened Snorlax, and Groudon in a pinch.
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 76 SpD / 144 Spe
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Icy Wind
Blissey stonewalls Latios, beats certain Kyogre sets, and clicks Heal Bell. The
specifics of the Blissey set are mainly to provide a better check to SubPet
DeoA. Besides beating TauntCM M2, slowing down opposing Latis, and making a cool
whooshing sound, Icy Wind breaks SubPet subs, and the Defense + HP investment
lets it live DeoA Superpower -> -1 DeoA Superpower with a Soft-Boiled in
between. Lower SpD is inconvenient on spinless, so health has to be managed
well; Salamence Wish-passing to Bliss can help. Against Latios, Blissey will
have to Icy Wind it, then force a Refresh with Toxic in order to get Gengar or
Latias in.
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 72 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Roar
- Counter
Skarm beats many Lax under Rain and most Don, checks Metagross, and clicks
Spikes. The team's gameplan is heavily Spikes-reliant, so it cannot be allowed
to die before it Spikes at least once. Since one of the issues this team has is
against CB Rock-types, Skarmory is mostly geared towards taking their attacks.
160+ Def lets Skarm live 3 CB Aero Rock Slides, with Speed EVS for Wobb and the
rest put in SpD. Counter similarly lets Skarm threaten Rocks as long as it can
live a hit rather than allowing them to simply stay in and attack.
Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 52 Def / 16 SpA / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
Gengar beats Snorlax, checks a number of things offensively,
spinblocks Forretress, and makes progress directly via Wisp. Gengar's spread
lets it live Modest Tios DClaw and 2HKO back with SBall, 3HKO Toxiced Ho-Oh with
Thunder, outspeed Jolly Mew / Slaking, and take physical hits as well as
possible. Thunder I have found to be valuable simply as a fairly strong attack
on a fairly fast Pokemon, but it also lets Gengar push past Ho-Oh with
sufficiently good positioning. Taunt lets Gengar beat Bliss without sacrificing
itself and also prevent Snorlax from resting. 330 speed rather than 350 is
arguably a bit greedy, but I would rather not build to speed tie; the extra bulk
will help in ways I can rely on whereas speed-tieing will always be a gamble.
Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Dragon Claw
Salamence beats Deoxys-Attack, Groudon sets that have coverage for both Skarm
and Latias, and Hera; and passes Wishes. I opted for DClaw here over
Flamethrower because I have sufficient Forry countermeasure already, and a bit
stronger of an attack is always nice; with DClaw Mence can also pressure Latios
to at least a basic degree. The EVs beat neutral base 70s, with the rest in Def.
The gameplan is fairly self-explanatory: Spike with Skarmory, spinblock with
Gengar, Tox and Wisp as much of the opposing team as you can, and eventually
win. Spinblocking gives the team a reasonable matchup into opposing stall
usually, but spinners that can threaten Gengar can become issues.
Weaknesses include special attackers that can beat Blissey, as usual for stall.
Many of these are checked fairly reliably by Latias, but if Latias needs to
check multiple of them at once or is blown up by lead M2 issues may arise.
SubPet DeoA loses to Blissey 1v1, but only if Blissey can come in at full health
without taking a hit. SubCM M2 can freeze Latias, but doesn't 2HKO it at +1 and
is not commonly used alongside lead M2. SubCM Ogre can be beaten by Kyogre but
will need to be scouted, and notably an offensive CM + Thunder + Hydro Pump
Kyogre is very difficult for the team to deal with without Latias. CB Rock-types
are also an issue, with Skarmory and Kyogre being the primary checks. Although
2/3 of the team does not take Spikes, opposing Spikes are also sometimes painful
to deal with; Blissey and Kyogre are both much easier to pressure with Spikes
up. Both of these can sometimes be ameliorated with Wish from Salamence if
Salamence is able to come in safely and if the opponent switches something that
is checked by Bliss or Ogre, as appropriate, into Mence.
I have tried a number of different moves or EVs on most of the Pokemon.
Latias can of course use Roar over Toxic, which prevents the opponent from
playing mindgames with Substitute on Mewtwo. A less specially defensive spread
can be used to allow boosted Latias to serve more of a threat.
Kyogre can be more physically defensive, to better check Rock-types, or
alternately more specially defensive, to better beat Kyogre and Latis. It can
potentially fit Thunder, letting it threaten Kyogre more aggressively and
Paralyze TauntCM M2.
Blissey can use a number of moves over Icy Wind. Snatch evades a significant
weakness to Latios, but leaves Blissey unable to break Deo-A Substitutes. Calm
Mind can be used, but the loss of Heal Bell is dismaying, and EVs will be
stretched very thin. The spread can be messed with if SubPet DeoA is not a big
issue. I have also discovered a truly marvelous Blissey set, which this
post is too short to contain. If dropping Icy Wind Kyogre may need to be
Thunder to beat TauntCM M2.
Skarmory could run more SpD in order to check CM Refresh Latis; I do not,
however, respect that set. Pursuit in case of CB Slide DeoA is possible, as is
Protect to heal, or Drill Peck to threaten DeoA and Hera.
Gengar could run a number of other moves or spreads, which I will not go into
here.
Salamence could run Flamethrower to check Metagross better and stop Forry from
Spiking; if Heracross is particularly a pain HPFlying could even be used, in
which case I wish you luck finding a PCJP Bagon with 70 BP HPFly and
acceptable IVs.
Although this is an older version of the team, I used it in UPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-857752
A couple of things to note are:
- The sequence vs M2 at lead: if M2 had been Shadow Ball, Latias would not have
been able to force it to Explode and I would have had to sac something else.
- Protecting on the Snorlax Self-Destruct T7: I wanted Spikes as early as
possible, hence going Skarmory on Snorlax rather than Gengar. The team no
longer has Protect on Skarmory, but the same effect could have been achieved by
going to Gengar on that turn. If Snorlax had blown up one turn earlier, I might
have been in trouble.
- Protecting on the double from Latios to Groudon T35: Salamence is sometimes
resilient to doubles because of its ability to mix-up between Protect and
switching.
- Going to Gengar T46: The team's sequencing vs Latios is somewhat awkward;
Blissey cannot beat it alone but the team lacks a solid backup check to Latios
to cover for that. As a result, the way to beat Latios is generally to slow it
down with Icy Wind, Toxic it, and then go to Gengar or (preferably) Latias to
1v1 it. In this case, if Latios had Ice Beamed on the switch to Gengar,
Gengar's Shadow Ball the subsequent turn plus Tox damage would have likely
killed, and if not Salamence could have revenged. Still, in a slightly
different gamestate Latios could have been a major issue.
edit1: formatting change, add a paste
edit2: add sprites
edit3: add replay + discussion of it
version I've come up with. One of the most significant issues with rain fat is
mixed attackers with Thunder, specifically DeoA, so I decided to try Salamence
in the final slot. Salamence improves the Spell Tag Thunder DeoA matchup
significantly, and has a number of other desirable traits, including Wish, and
checking Rayquaza, Ghost+Fire Groudon, and general physical threats. Wish in
particular lets the team play somewhat more aggressively and later heal HP
lost, and generally give Gengar and Skarmory, which otherwise don't have
recovery, increased ability to function more effectively long-term.
https://pokepast.es/4839a00ad52f25d7
Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 SpA / 128 SpD / 96 Spe
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Toxic
- Dragon Claw
Latias is the Mewtwo countermeasure primarily. Since rainstall has Kyogre as a
backup check to opposing SubCM Ogre, Latias can be sacced to lead M2 without the
team falling apart to Kyogre later on. Nevertheless, the team would really
prefer to have Latias around for a couple of auxiliary threats, such as SubPet
DeoA, CM Water Spout Kyogre, and opposing Latis; and teams that run lead M2 +
one of these can be difficult. The EVs let Latias outspeed neutral Ogre and live 2 +1
SubCM M2 Ice Beams, with the rest put in SpA. Toxic is here instead of Roar to
more concretely threaten SubCM Ogre / M2.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 16 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Roar
Kyogre is a general backup check to various threats and keeps Rain up. Its
primary role in the builder is to check SubCM Ogre, but a number of physical
threats can be beaten if push comes to shove. Calm is used for a bit more
resilience to SubCM Ogre attacks, and also the ability to push past weaker
special attackers trying to check it if it gets enough CMs. Kyogre also beats
Metagross alongside Skarmory, and can handle Pokemon like CM Refresh Latias,
weakened Snorlax, and Groudon in a pinch.
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 76 SpD / 144 Spe
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Icy Wind
Blissey stonewalls Latios, beats certain Kyogre sets, and clicks Heal Bell. The
specifics of the Blissey set are mainly to provide a better check to SubPet
DeoA. Besides beating TauntCM M2, slowing down opposing Latis, and making a cool
whooshing sound, Icy Wind breaks SubPet subs, and the Defense + HP investment
lets it live DeoA Superpower -> -1 DeoA Superpower with a Soft-Boiled in
between. Lower SpD is inconvenient on spinless, so health has to be managed
well; Salamence Wish-passing to Bliss can help. Against Latios, Blissey will
have to Icy Wind it, then force a Refresh with Toxic in order to get Gengar or
Latias in.
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 72 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Roar
- Counter
Skarm beats many Lax under Rain and most Don, checks Metagross, and clicks
Spikes. The team's gameplan is heavily Spikes-reliant, so it cannot be allowed
to die before it Spikes at least once. Since one of the issues this team has is
against CB Rock-types, Skarmory is mostly geared towards taking their attacks.
160+ Def lets Skarm live 3 CB Aero Rock Slides, with Speed EVS for Wobb and the
rest put in SpD. Counter similarly lets Skarm threaten Rocks as long as it can
live a hit rather than allowing them to simply stay in and attack.
Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 52 Def / 16 SpA / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
Gengar beats Snorlax, checks a number of things offensively,
spinblocks Forretress, and makes progress directly via Wisp. Gengar's spread
lets it live Modest Tios DClaw and 2HKO back with SBall, 3HKO Toxiced Ho-Oh with
Thunder, outspeed Jolly Mew / Slaking, and take physical hits as well as
possible. Thunder I have found to be valuable simply as a fairly strong attack
on a fairly fast Pokemon, but it also lets Gengar push past Ho-Oh with
sufficiently good positioning. Taunt lets Gengar beat Bliss without sacrificing
itself and also prevent Snorlax from resting. 330 speed rather than 350 is
arguably a bit greedy, but I would rather not build to speed tie; the extra bulk
will help in ways I can rely on whereas speed-tieing will always be a gamble.
Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Dragon Claw
Salamence beats Deoxys-Attack, Groudon sets that have coverage for both Skarm
and Latias, and Hera; and passes Wishes. I opted for DClaw here over
Flamethrower because I have sufficient Forry countermeasure already, and a bit
stronger of an attack is always nice; with DClaw Mence can also pressure Latios
to at least a basic degree. The EVs beat neutral base 70s, with the rest in Def.
The gameplan is fairly self-explanatory: Spike with Skarmory, spinblock with
Gengar, Tox and Wisp as much of the opposing team as you can, and eventually
win. Spinblocking gives the team a reasonable matchup into opposing stall
usually, but spinners that can threaten Gengar can become issues.
Weaknesses include special attackers that can beat Blissey, as usual for stall.
Many of these are checked fairly reliably by Latias, but if Latias needs to
check multiple of them at once or is blown up by lead M2 issues may arise.
SubPet DeoA loses to Blissey 1v1, but only if Blissey can come in at full health
without taking a hit. SubCM M2 can freeze Latias, but doesn't 2HKO it at +1 and
is not commonly used alongside lead M2. SubCM Ogre can be beaten by Kyogre but
will need to be scouted, and notably an offensive CM + Thunder + Hydro Pump
Kyogre is very difficult for the team to deal with without Latias. CB Rock-types
are also an issue, with Skarmory and Kyogre being the primary checks. Although
2/3 of the team does not take Spikes, opposing Spikes are also sometimes painful
to deal with; Blissey and Kyogre are both much easier to pressure with Spikes
up. Both of these can sometimes be ameliorated with Wish from Salamence if
Salamence is able to come in safely and if the opponent switches something that
is checked by Bliss or Ogre, as appropriate, into Mence.
I have tried a number of different moves or EVs on most of the Pokemon.
Latias can of course use Roar over Toxic, which prevents the opponent from
playing mindgames with Substitute on Mewtwo. A less specially defensive spread
can be used to allow boosted Latias to serve more of a threat.
Kyogre can be more physically defensive, to better check Rock-types, or
alternately more specially defensive, to better beat Kyogre and Latis. It can
potentially fit Thunder, letting it threaten Kyogre more aggressively and
Paralyze TauntCM M2.
Blissey can use a number of moves over Icy Wind. Snatch evades a significant
weakness to Latios, but leaves Blissey unable to break Deo-A Substitutes. Calm
Mind can be used, but the loss of Heal Bell is dismaying, and EVs will be
stretched very thin. The spread can be messed with if SubPet DeoA is not a big
issue. I have also discovered a truly marvelous Blissey set, which this
post is too short to contain. If dropping Icy Wind Kyogre may need to be
Thunder to beat TauntCM M2.
Skarmory could run more SpD in order to check CM Refresh Latis; I do not,
however, respect that set. Pursuit in case of CB Slide DeoA is possible, as is
Protect to heal, or Drill Peck to threaten DeoA and Hera.
Gengar could run a number of other moves or spreads, which I will not go into
here.
Salamence could run Flamethrower to check Metagross better and stop Forry from
Spiking; if Heracross is particularly a pain HPFlying could even be used, in
which case I wish you luck finding a PCJP Bagon with 70 BP HPFly and
acceptable IVs.
Although this is an older version of the team, I used it in UPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-857752
A couple of things to note are:
- The sequence vs M2 at lead: if M2 had been Shadow Ball, Latias would not have
been able to force it to Explode and I would have had to sac something else.
- Protecting on the Snorlax Self-Destruct T7: I wanted Spikes as early as
possible, hence going Skarmory on Snorlax rather than Gengar. The team no
longer has Protect on Skarmory, but the same effect could have been achieved by
going to Gengar on that turn. If Snorlax had blown up one turn earlier, I might
have been in trouble.
- Protecting on the double from Latios to Groudon T35: Salamence is sometimes
resilient to doubles because of its ability to mix-up between Protect and
switching.
- Going to Gengar T46: The team's sequencing vs Latios is somewhat awkward;
Blissey cannot beat it alone but the team lacks a solid backup check to Latios
to cover for that. As a result, the way to beat Latios is generally to slow it
down with Icy Wind, Toxic it, and then go to Gengar or (preferably) Latias to
1v1 it. In this case, if Latios had Ice Beamed on the switch to Gengar,
Gengar's Shadow Ball the subsequent turn plus Tox damage would have likely
killed, and if not Salamence could have revenged. Still, in a slightly
different gamestate Latios could have been a major issue.
edit1: formatting change, add a paste
edit2: add sprites
edit3: add replay + discussion of it
Last edited:
