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Limited coverage options (grass, psychic, and fairy, bug)
Absolutely helpless against steel types in general (they resist all your coverage options) in particular aegislash and mega metagross, and scizor completely walls floette. Biggest problem for floette is gking which is neutral to all its attacks and has strong sludgebomb that will kill through most calm mind setups while having high spdef and regenerator.
Middling physical bulk that makes vulnerable to physical priority moves and strong bulky/fast physical attackers.
Lack of priority moves (especially since every mega and their mother has priority moves or is just sub 110 speed)
Also slower than the other new mega special attackers and slower than many of its checks.
Still a very strong setup attacker with access to recovery moves, and the strongest fairy attack in the game with pretty good special bulk, it just has too many checks in the tier above it.
It has very few though. Glowking and Mega Scizor are the hard counters, and most steels are mostly very short checks at best that get bowled over by moonblast with just spikes or rocks support. Corv is 2HKOd at +1 and can’t do anything without BB, which forces it to drop either u-turn or body press (neither is desirable). Gambit is literally OHKOd with a spike up unless your max HP but that’s super easy to wear down with any prior damage. Aegislash has zero recovery and gets worn down by repeated moonblasts with spikes up (and if Floette has a partner Garchomp, rough skin chip), same applies to mega metagross.
Most of these steels are slower, save for mega metagross. All of them bad Glowking and Mega Scizor are flawed as checks for the reasons I mentioned. Mon is super good and is something that basically necessitates Glowking or bulky SD mega scizor on balance if they don’t want to risk losing to it.
It has very few though. Glowking and Mega Scizor are the hard counters, and most steels are mostly very short checks at best that get bowled over by moonblast with just spikes or rocks support. Corv is 2HKOd at +1 and can’t do anything without BB, which forces it to drop either u-turn or body press (neither is desirable). Gambit is literally OHKOd with a spike up unless your max HP but that’s super easy to wear down with any prior damage. Aegislash has zero recovery and gets worn down by repeated moonblasts with spikes up (and if Floette has a partner Garchomp, rough skin chip), same applies to mega metagross.
Most of these steels are slower, save for mega metagross. All of them bad Glowking and Mega Scizor are flawed as checks for the reasons I mentioned. Mon is super good and is something that basically necessitates Glowking or bulky SD mega scizor on balance if they don’t want to risk losing to it.
I think if u can build a team that accommodates bulky Aegislash with Iron Head it will check Floette. Ghost is such a spammable attack, so u can always catch the switch. It can even soften blows from Samurott, a common pair with Floette, with King Shield, while generally stopping the opponents momentum. Floette has solid checks, and can be played around with your skill (or your opponents teeny bit lack of); but it always wins if your only 'check' is a Corviknight.
Ceruledge without Shadow Sneak is bad, no ifs, no buts. If you have a Gambit issue, you have a Corviknight with Body Press. I am not sure about this change, but I would like to consider Sub on Raichu Y. Your already have 3 pivots, and running Volt Switch means you can only fire one attack once. It also struggles into bulkier teams who can position themselves once to threaten. Therefore, because Raichu can force switch-outs very well, u can use Sub to take advantage of its pressure. I would love to add more, but I'm lazy lol :)
:sv/tauros-paldea-aqua:
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua (M) @ Mystic Water / Choice Band whenever this comes out...
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 1 HP / 32 Atk / 1 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- Wave Crash / Raging Bull
- Wild Charge / Bulk Up
Second wet bull post from yours truly incoming. Despite Rain being less popular for obvious reasons, this mon does a LOT for a team in terms of patching up holes. Here is a non-exhaustive list of cool things it does:
It still has a good matchup against Rain if someone funny wants to run it
Aqua Jet RKs Blaziken, Mega Barbaracle, Volcarona, Mega Delphox, Mega Glimmora, Ceruledge (who is forced to shadow sneak), who are all mons that can just run over a LOT of teams.
Priority is goated
Intimidate? Intimidate.
It comes into Hamurott easily. And it beats Mega Gyarados which is one of those mons you never see but has the ability to 6-0 sometimes
It's great into Kingambit in a world where Fighting types are mostly bad into it with the exception of Mega Lopunny, who is a Mega.
If you go with Raging Bull, you even have Screen removal for that one game where it matters
It does have some sus matchups that you need to keep in mind, those being Mega Meganium, Toxapex, Rotom-W, Primarina if not running Wild Charge. oh and Slowbro too I guess but surely you run Hamurott in your team, right?
View attachment 853298 :sv/tauros-paldea-aqua:
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua (M) @ Mystic Water / Choice Band whenever this comes out...
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 1 HP / 32 Atk / 1 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- Wave Crash / Raging Bull
- Wild Charge / Bulk Up
Second wet bull post from yours truly incoming. Despite Rain being less popular for obvious reasons, this mon does a LOT for a team in terms of patching up holes. Here is a non-exhaustive list of cool things it does:
It still has a good matchup against Rain if someone funny wants to run it
Aqua Jet RKs Blaziken, Mega Barbaracle, Volcarona, Mega Delphox, Mega Glimmora, Ceruledge (who is forced to shadow sneak), who are all mons that can just run over a LOT of teams.
Priority is goated
Intimidate? Intimidate.
It comes into Hamurott easily. And it beats Mega Gyarados which is one of those mons you never see but has the ability to 6-0 sometimes
It's great into Kingambit in a world where Fighting types are mostly bad into it with the exception of Mega Lopunny, who is a Mega.
If you go with Raging Bull, you even have Screen removal for that one game where it matters
It does have some sus matchups that you need to keep in mind, those being Mega Meganium, Toxapex, Rotom-W, Primarina if not running Wild Charge. oh and Slowbro too I guess but surely you run Hamurott in your team, right?
Glad the bull keeps getting its flowers in this forum,
Personally I find leftovers with wave crash and adamant nature to be good on balance or pivot heavy teams. Yeah you resist gambit and Sammy but those guys hit like a truck regardless and will still eventually wear you down, lefties gives insane value with bulk up, pretty sure you were the one who first posted about that set.
I’m really interested in trying out mystic water and adamant nature with aqua jet, could make for even stronger combos with other pivots. My go to team right now with Tauros on it.
Tauro’s role in checking kingbambit and Hsammy is very important for this team as they both get free turns when switching in on most of my walls, lefties allows as stated above for Tauros to come in on them, take the hit and either attack right away or threaten a sweep with bulk up, either way you heal and maybe get some boost. Its also probably one of the best pivot sponges in the game right now resisting both u-turn and flip turn (let’s pretend volt switch doesn’t exist)
Fav interaction is lead mega drag into volcarona or mega delphox, slow flip turn and finish with aqua jet on tauros.
Still very sus especially against g king and toxapex as my team can’t really kill toxapex outright and slowking with future sight and sludge bomb keeps Tauros and draglague out and can threaten a ko or toxic on Meowscada if it’s comes in.
Glad the bull keeps getting its flowers in this forum,
Personally I find leftovers with wave crash and adamant nature to be good on balance or pivot heavy teams. Yeah you resist gambit and Sammy but those guys hit like a truck regardless and will still eventually wear you down, lefties gives insane value with bulk up, pretty sure you were the one who first posted about that set.
I’m really interested in trying out mystic water and adamant nature with aqua jet, could make for even stronger combos with other pivots. My go to team right now with Tauros on it.
Tauro’s role in checking kingbambit and Hsammy is very important for this team as they both get free turns when switching in on most of my walls, lefties allows as stated above for Tauros to come in on them, take the hit and either attack right away or threaten a sweep with bulk up, either way you heal and maybe get some boost. Its also probably one of the best pivot sponges in the game right now resisting both u-turn and flip turn (let’s pretend volt switch doesn’t exist)
Fav interaction is lead mega drag into volcarona or mega delphox, slow flip turn and finish with aqua jet on tauros.
Still very sus especially against g king and toxapex as my team can’t really kill toxapex outright and slowking with future sight and sludge bomb keeps Tauros and draglague out and can threaten a ko or toxic on Meowscada if it’s comes in.
I made this team when annihilape was everywhere, it allowed Corvknight to defog into the ape and then go to clef for free to kill it, it’s also good into SD Sammy.
In reality I should probably change it I just got lazy and don’t like to think very much so unaware clef comes in clutch to save me from dragon/fighting sweepers I let get out of control.
With CHAMPL starting up and rain being slaughtered last month, I think we can start talking about the other problems with this tier! Keep in mind that all of these are my opinions but feel free to argue with me about them.
:samurott-hisui:
This guy has been the talk of the town recently (actually since like week 2 of this tier) and its for good reason. Samurott has become extremely centralizing to the point where some Pokemon have completely lost viability with its rise in popularity, like :Alakazam-mega:, :espathra:, :greninja:, and :sinistcha:, have become noticeably weaker, like :aegislash:, :ceruledge:, :dragapult:, and :kingambit:, or have carved out a niche in the tier like :decidueye-hisui: and :meowscarada:. This guy is honestly so centralizing to the point where if you are not running stall, semi-stall or some variants of HO, you are throwing by not using it. Water/Dark is absolutely one of if not the best offensive typing in the game right now where almost nothing can safely switch-in on you. Setting up spikes means even if a "check" like :meganium-mega: or :primarina: switches in on you, you are still making progress. Base 85 speed means you outspeed the entire unboosted metagame with a :choice-scarf:. You have every utility move you could possibly want to punish passive foes, like Encore, Taunt, and Flip Turn for pivoting. If you don't want to use scarf, great! You have SD and Sucker Punch to still beat faster things. Samurott is very difficult to answer and its ability to guarentee Spikes are set can be very restrictive on the builder and when playing.
However, there are still some valid reasons why Samurott is still in the tier. It is essentially the only thing still keeping :raichu-mega-y:, :delphox-mega:, and :metagross-mega: in check and they would otherwise be obserdly broken without it. Additionally, there are some answers like :meganium-mega:, :primarina:, and :clefable: that are splashable and generally check most variants. We also still have Colbur Berry for things like :dragapult:, :slowking-galar:, and :aegislash: to either punish it with status or outright KO it with coverage. Removal, while limited, is still common and it is not too difficult to remove Spikes once there on the field (unless you're fighting one guy which we'll mention later). Because of all these reasons, I am quite conflicted on what to do about Samurott. On one hand, all of the different variants in addition to the defensive nightmare it is to check Hisuian Samurott makes it seem broken. On the other, Samurott is necessary to check a multitude of other threats in the metagame and a ban on Samurott would likely take 4 or 5 other Pokemon with it. On the third hand, broken-checking-broken is generally not a good tiering philosophy and why we got stuck with things like SM Magearna and SV Zamazenta (argument for another time), so it might be for the best to ban all those Pokemon with Hisuian Samurott. Therefore, it is clear that a Samurott ban would have massive implications on the tier and should be done carefully. If a suspect happened right now and I had to vote on it, I think I would still vote DNB, but my opinion could still be easily swayed and it depends on when I most recently lost to it. There is obviously a lot of discussion around it already, but I still want to hear from other people that haven't voiced their opinions. Let me know!
:annihilape:
This guy on the other hand, should not have any discussion around it. We all thought Annihilape would be manageable after its nerfs, however all of its factors combined still make it problematic to deal with. Defiant means that you can punish some of the tiers best Mons simply by existing, like :araquanid: or :corviknight:. Its ability to punish Defog from Corviknight is honestly part of the reason why :samurott-hisui: is broken. Its Ghost typing means it can also block Rapid Spin from :excadrill: and :quaquaval: so hazards set by :glimmora:, :araquanid:, or :samurott-hisui: are almost always staying up. Rage Fist can still spiral very quickly and Ghost/Fighting is still unresisted STABs. Its high HP also means it becomes very bulky when invested and can become extremely difficult to remove when it gets one or two bulk ups. It alsohas access to Taunt to block phazing attempts from :hippowdon: and :toxapex: or Toxic from :slowking-galar: and :toxapex:and Rest to let it get back to max HP once its been chunked down a bit or if it gets Toxic poisoned. You even have Ice Punch for :garchomp: and :dragonite:! This guy is obviously still broken and adds nothing positively to the tier defensively or supportively. Therefore, it should definitely be banned sooner rather than later.
:raichu-mega-y:
There has not been as much talk about Raichu Y as I thought there would be but I think it is worth mentioning for a ban. We have exactly three relevant checks to it in the tier. :meganium-mega: which is very viable on most team styles but still takes up a Mega slot. :dragalge-mega: who is an even better answer, but is limited to balance and can be sort of difficult to justify using when :slowking-galar: exists, and Specially Defensive :hippowdon: who is barely real and probably gets 2HKOed by Grass Knot anyway. Everything else in the tier gets 2HKOed after Stealth Rocks or can be easily taken advantage of by a teammate. But isn't Raichu Y insanely frail? While it is true that it is very frail and can be removed by any strong priority or scarfer, it is still very difficult to answer defensively and has many traits that make it hard to answer for even more offensive teams. I also think some variants are under utilized and can be even more difficult to answer like Encore 3 Attacks and Sub + NP. Therefore, I think Raichu Y should be very closely monitored and a suspect could be needed depending on its future performance.
:staraptor-mega:
I still see people complaining about this thing and I am not sure why. Does it really do anything besides getting PP stalled by :corviknight:? For real though, most of its criticism comes from Contrary punishing Defog insanely hard and being otherwise quite difficult to answer defensively outside of :corviknight: and :hippowdon:. However, I still think there are other ways to deal with it. It is still very weak to status meaning it can be shut down fairly easily by a Burn or Toxic. 110 Speed is also not the fastest thing in the world, meaning scarfers outspeed it and Thunder Wave can cripple it. It is also very weak to Electric- and Fairy-types like :rotom-wash:, :raichu-mega-y:, :floette-mega:, and :clefable: so it can struggle to break if these threats aren't removed. Therefore, I don't think Mega Staraptor is broken as of now and it will probably only get easier to answer as the dex expands.
:pelipper::damp-rock:
I said this earlier, but rain is completely dead and should not be used. Not! I think rain is still usable as a more balanced play style and should be explored more. I have ran into it a couple times and it is still quite scary to face. I think banning Damp Rock was the correct decision and I'm happy it worked out.
WATCH LIST
:delphox-mega::metagross-mega::alakazam-mega:
These three Megas are all primarily checked by :samurott-hisui: meaning a ban for it could break them. :metagross-mega: still has to deal with :hippowdon: and :rotom-wash: for balance teams, but the other two are quite difficult to answer on more balanced play styles without Samurott. Because of that I think they should be monitored in the future.
:floette-mega:
This might just be personal preference but Mega Floette can feel very restricting on the builder at times. If it weren't for :slowking-galar: being on almost every balance or bulky offense team, it would feel very oppressive. I think Mega Floette could be more problematic as the dex grows so make sure to pay attention to it.
:samurott-hisui:
I think you've said pretty much everything there is to explain on the Hamurott situation. It is indeed the single best and most influential mon in the tier, with Corviknight right below it. Having a suspect test happen now would be a blunder, obviously. A ban would completely reshape the tier from top to bottom more than any other ban could overnight, just for the next regulation to happen in less than a month from now. There is no reason to make such a drastic change.
:annihilape:
I'm always on the fence when it comes to Annihilape. On one hand, I feel like there is enough counterplay, and diverse enough counterplay to when you can kind of answer it without making too many concessions and some great mons naturally beat it or at least help a lot towards beating it (:clefable-mega::clefable::meganium-mega::primarina::tinkaton::delphox-mega::dragapult::dragonite-mega::floette-mega::meowscarada::volcarona:). My biggest gripe is its Defog deterrence and Rapid Spin immunity that allows for some pretty absurd and braindead team comps to be allowed to exist. Annihilape makes Glimmora an elite mon, and is both Webs's greatest ally and greatest foe. But mostly ally since you'll play Annihilape in 100% of your Webs teams. Said Annihilape HO teams also happen to be the least interactive teams and I will always vouch in favor of nerfing Solitaire playstyles. However, I will highlight the fact that Blaziken makes these teams much better as well. Fighting is an insanely good type to spam and Blaziken has its own flavor of brokenness at base value. Add to this the fact that it has Annihilape to start punching holes and does not need to run Protect as much in Webs teams, and you end up with quite a monstrosity of a core (:araquanid::annihilape::blaziken:). While these teams are not unbeatable by any definition, it starts teetering the line of un-outplayable if you aren't prepping hard specifically for this core in the builder.
:blaziken:
Speaking of Blaziken, it deserves a section of its own. This mon often feels unfair to fight against. Once again, reliable counterplay exists, but [Dragonite / Mega Dragonite / Aqua Jet] is a short list and, let's be frank, it's not hard to click the super effective move and watch speed boost make you impossible to revenge kill outside of Aqua Jet. Not the strongest mon in the tier, but the effectiveness/brain power required ratio is off the charts.
:raichu-mega-y:
idk, I feel like I barely see it, and the 3 mons mentioned as counters (:meganium-mega::dragalge-mega::slowking-galar:) are among the top 10 best mons in the tier. HO teams have no issue pressuring it for obvious reasons, and fatter teams have the 2nd best mega in the tier, the 4th best mega in the tier and one of the Big 4 mons to play around it. Mega Raichu Y is no doubt strong, but broken? eh, this I am less sure. It ultimately is balanced in the tier it shapes, if that makes any sense.
:staraptor-mega:
I agree, this mon is fine. It "punishes" Defog thanks to Contrary, but like... it's still in front of Corviknight, so it's getting PP stalled out of its Evasion boost. womp womp.
:samurott-hisui:
I think you've said pretty much everything there is to explain on the Hamurott situation. It is indeed the single best and most influential mon in the tier, with Corviknight right below it. Having a suspect test happen now would be a blunder, obviously. A ban would completely reshape the tier from top to bottom more than any other ban could overnight, just for the next regulation to happen in less than a month from now. There is no reason to make such a drastic change.
:annihilape:
I'm always on the fence when it comes to Annihilape. On one hand, I feel like there is enough counterplay, and diverse enough counterplay to when you can kind of answer it without making too many concessions and some great mons naturally beat it or at least help a lot towards beating it (:clefable-mega::clefable::meganium-mega::primarina::tinkaton::delphox-mega::dragapult::dragonite-mega::floette-mega::meowscarada::primarina::volcarona:). My biggest gripe is its Defog deterrence and Rapid Spin immunity that allows for some pretty absurd and braindead team comps to be allowed to exist. Annihilape makes Glimmora an elite mon, and is both Webs's greatest ally and greatest foe. But mostly ally since you'll play Annihilape in 100% of your Webs teams. Said Annihilape HO teams also happen to be the least interactive teams and I will always vouch in favor of nerfing Solitaire playstyles. However, I will highlight the fact that Blaziken makes these teams much better as well. Fighting is an insanely good type to spam and Blaziken has its own flavor of brokenness at base value. Add to this the fact that it has Annihilape to start punching holes and does not need to run Protect as much in Webs teams, and you end up with quite a monstrosity of a core (:araquanid::annihilape::blaziken:). While these teams are not unbeatable by any definition, it starts teetering the line of un-outplayable if you aren't prepping hard specifically for this core in the builder.
:blaziken:
Speaking of Blaziken, it deserves a section of its own. This mon often feels unfair to fight against. Once again, reliable counterplay exists, but [Dragonite / Mega Dragonite / Aqua Jet] is a short list and, let's be frank, it's not hard to click the super effective move and watch speed boost make you impossible to revenge kill outside of Aqua Jet. Not the strongest mon in the tier, but the effectiveness/brain power required ratio is off the charts.
:raichu-mega-y:
idk, I feel like I barely see it, and the 3 mons mentioned as counters (:meganium-mega::dragalge-mega::slowking-galar:) are among the top 10 best mons in the tier. HO teams have no issue pressuring it for obvious reasons, and fatter teams have the 2nd best mega in the tier, the 4th best mega in the tier and one of the Big 4 mons to play around it. Mega Raichu Y is no doubt strong, but broken? eh, this I am less sure. It ultimately is balanced in the tier it shapes, if that makes any sense.
:staraptor-mega:
I agree, this mon is fine. It "punishes" Defog thanks to Contrary, but like... it's still in front of Corviknight, so it's getting PP stalled out of its Evasion boost. womp womp.
I think we shouldn't ban Hamurott at least in this regulation. In general, I would prefer to avoid having to ban 5ish mons because Hamurott left. It's centralizing and arguably broken though I don't think it necessarily makes the tier worse to play, especially without Gholdengo. The fact that Corviknight can pretty easily get a Defog and Hamurott can be traded into by a lot of mons helps make it fine to play against imo. (I don't think SV Zamazenta is all that comparable to Magearna or Hamurott btw but that's not relevant)
Never thought Mega Staraptor was broken when Corviknight farms it so hard. Can still be pretty easily played around on offensive teams with the bunch of Ghost types in the tier like Aegislash.
Idk about Annihilape have literally never had trouble against it but I don't play teams slower than balance.
Raichu I think is mostly kept in check by scarfers and priority, while slower teams would probably run Dragalge and Meganium anyway even if not for Raichu.
Blaziken is closest to broken imo. If anything is annoying I would say it's Mega Lopunny but no one else thinks that so I won't push it lol.
RN, I think there are a lot of debatable broken Pokemon in the metagame between :Samurott-Hisui:, :Garchomp:, :Delphox-Mega:, :Raichu-Mega Y:, :Blaziken:, :Charizard-Mega X:, :Volcarona:, and :Floette-Mega:, with a fair few other candidates as well. However, it would take too long to suspect any of them and I don't think quickbanning any of these Pokemon aside from the megas is really a viable option either since it can be argued these Pokemon bring a lot of positive qualities to the metagame as well (though less so for Blaziken / Volcarona than others).
Following the first week of ChamPL and due to the lack of conversations happening in this thread I decided to make a VR on my opinion of the metagame so far, a lot of this is just what I contributed as VR council for the official VR but with slight changes.
I may as well take my turn and update my VR...
Orded alphabetically
------- S tier -------
S ::corviknight::garchomp::samurott-hisui::slowking-galar:
------- A tier -------
A+::hippowdon::kingambit::lopunny-mega::meganium-mega:
A ::aegislash::annihilape::blaziken::delphox-mega::dragonite::floette-mega::glimmora::meowscarada::raichu-mega-y::rotom-wash::sneasler::volcarona:
A-::araquanid::ceruledge::charizard-mega-x::clefable::dragalge-mega::dragapult::hatterene::mawile-mega::metagross-mega::scizor-mega::staraptor-mega:
------- B tier -------
B+::archaludon::charizard-mega-y::clefable-mega::dragonite-mega::excadrill::hydreigon::primarina::scizor::tauros-paldea-aqua::toxapex:
B ::azumarill::froslass-mega::gliscor::greninja-mega::gyarados-mega::medicham-mega::pelipper::slowbro-mega::swampert-mega:
B-::alakazam-mega::basculegion-f::chesnaught-mega::crabominable-mega::ditto::falinks-mega::feraligatr-mega::glimmora-mega::hydrapple::mimikyu::sinistcha::skeledirge::slowbro::tinkaton:
------- C tier -------
C ::altaria-mega::arcanine-hisui::barbaracle-mega::floette-eternal::gardevoir-mega::quaquaval::pyroar-mega::rotom-heat::tyranitar::tyranitar-mega::umbreon::vanilluxe::venusaur-mega::weavile::zoroark-hisui:
----------------------
with my very high champions ou knowledge I give you this, if anyone has any disagreements they're probably wrong but any objections will be welcome and good
Water/Dark is absolutely one of if not the best offensive typing in the game right now where almost nothing can safely switch-in on you. Setting up spikes means even if a "check" like :meganium-mega: or :primarina: switches in on you, you are still making progress.
I agree, Samurott is the by far biggest restriction in the teambuilder. Half my teams start with an idea on how to counter Ceaseless edge. The only true counters are resists with hazard removal, which tend to be very niche, like defensive quaquaval (very underrated imo though! It walls the most common hazard setters and has Rapid spin + reliable recovery and a rocks resist!) and H-decidueye, or Mega-Scov. Against anything else, Ceaseless Edge is just a value button.
Though, I think you forget the most important mon it keeps im check: Glowking.
Spikes reduces regenerator healing basically down from 33% to 20.5%, making it much harder to keep it healthy without boots available and you often want lefties for something else. It's also a great target to get Hisui in on in order to click CE in the first place. The way it invites Hazard setters like Samurott and Chomp in is one of its biggest weaknesses imo and it would be uncontested number 1 without these mons.
(I accidentally deleted the Yaichu part, but imagine it's here):
Yaichu is for sure strong, but not broken. You are right that it cannot be stopped indefinitely by much defensively. However, there are enough checks in the tier that manage to switch in once or twice safely, that buy offensive and balanced teams enough time to counter attack.
Yaichu also gets slowed down a ton teams that require different predictions. If a team has Glowking AND Garchomp as an example, it can take quite a while to break through, because a misspredict heals Glowking back up.
Defensive teams can abuse the fact that it has just 4 moveslots. If you run both Hippo and Glowking, either one of those can check it quite well, because missing Nasty Plot/Volt Switch makes it harder to break through Glowking, while missing Grass Knot makes it *really* hard to break through Hippo
Yes, given enough switch ins, it can break through anything. But you don't have to stop it forever, just long enough to allow your own team to break through and there are enough checks to do that to not make it broken.
I personally currently run a team with *just* Glowking as a Yaichu check and no electric immunity, it's one of my worst matchups. Yet even with that team, I often manage to buy enough time with Glowking to break through/chip it down.
I think we shouldn't ban Hamurott at least in this regulation. In general, I would prefer to avoid having to ban 5ish mons because Hamurott left. It's centralizing and arguably broken though I don't think it necessarily makes the tier worse to play, especially without Gholdengo. The fact that Corviknight can pretty easily get a Defog and Hamurott can be traded into by a lot of mons helps make it fine to play against imo.
I disagree here. I don't think it should get banned, but Corv doesn't get easy defogs on it. It can't switch into it directly and defog on it (once, but not multiple times), so you often have to check it with something else first and then work for an opportunity to defog later.
I think thinking about it in turns makes it more clear how broken this move is:
If Garchomp invests a single turn setting up Stealth rock, special defensive corv takes a single turn to defog it. An equal trade. If Chomp attacks it with Flamethrower, it takes 1 turn to heal it off. Equal trade.
If Samurott Ceaseless edges though, you take damage AND have to defog it. Doing both requires 2 turns for the 1 turn it took the opponent to click the move.
Even mons specifically used to counter it, like H-Decidueye, get damage on every Ceaseless edge and it will eventually have to waste a turn healing. This is a turn the spikes will stick and can't get defogged away.
The only true counter is M-Scov, but that means you use your Mega slot on a defensive utility mon, which is a big commitment just to stop Ceaseless edge.
Most Quaquavals are runs offensively and I haven't been a fan of it. However, after building myself in a corner, Quaquaval was my surprising savior:
Quaquaval
Ability: Moxie
Level: 50
Item: None
EVs: 32 HP / 2 Atk / 32 Def
Impish Nature
- Close Combat
- Aqua Step / Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Roost
What does this thing do? Well, it's a defensive switch in for the most common Hazard setters that can spin in their face! In addition to that, it is a great Kingambit awnser and a helpful piece against physically offensive fires.
Something very unique about it, is it's speed tier:
It's in just the right speed tier where it under speeds most Hazard setters, but *out speeds* them after a Rapid spin boost. This means you can spin on them even if they attack you into low health, because now you out speed them and can roost back up. And being slower initially helps, so they can't instantly spike/rock again the turn you spin.
It's typing also helps against offensive fire types.
It survives 2 ChardX dragon claws / easily 1 after DD even with heavy chip and CC KOs it after Rocks damage.
Not saying it counters ChardX, but it can take a hit and deal big damage back, helping you not get swept by it.
Same for Blaziken: Without LORB, you survive a +2 CC and OHKO it back with Aqua step.
It chuggs up H-Arcanine hits as well.
Running no item on it also allows it to check Ceruledge lacking CC, though most Poltergeist into you first anyway, not expecting it to fail.
If it's your only Hazard removal (Don't use it as your only remover if your team is hazard weak), you can run Expert Belt Knock off on it and maybe a bit attack invest to 1HKO Dragapult after spike/rocks damage and beating Aegi on switch in.
Many people here are appreciating Tauros-Wave form for its typing allowing it to check important mons. Defensive Quaquaval does that, but with recovery and hazard removal (though less offensive output of course).
It's also nice to have a defensive mon that can actually dish okay ish damage out. I run it on a defensive team and it occasionally helps me finish games after an aqua step speed boost.
Hello Champions, here is a simple tutorial on one way to build a viable offense/balance team for the M-B regulation of Champions OU. Keep in mind this is not the only archetype available...
I. The Big 4 :garchomp::samurott-hisui::corviknight::slowking-galar:
The first step is to copy and paste this team skeleton here: https://pokepast.es/f2741799fcd4aed9
These 4 Pokemon form an optimal base structure for any team. They fulfill all the basic needs of a team: Rocks setting, Spikes setting, breaking power, Defogging, tanking, and a lot of pivoting, which allows it to combine high offensive pressure, defensive fallbacks, and momentum generation. You will notice that some sets are incomplete. What we need to fill up is:
- Corviknight's item
- Samurott's entire set (outside of Ceaseless Edge which is unavoidable)
- Slowking's tech options
These will be filled in depending on the needs we'll figure out with our next 2 slots.
II. Pick a Mega :floette-mega::meganium-mega::lopunny-mega::raichu-mega-y::delphox-mega::mawile-mega::metagross-mega:
A straightforward step, you can pick pretty much any mega, run any set on them, and give the onus of covering weaknesses, and providing the Mega the necessary support, to the rest of the team. I show you the most viable ones, but any mega could realistically work.
III. Fill in the blanks
This is the more complicated part to explain. Basically, your goal will be to tighten up the package so that you cover as many matchups as possible. For this, you still have your 6th team slot open, as well as many moveslots and item choice for the Big 4. Since there are too many combinations of 6th slot picks and move picks, I will give you an example later down this post. But first, let me walk you through common options for the Big 4 and what they cover. Keep in mind these choices will often be made during the selection of the 6th team slot.
:corviknight: Usually runs one of these 4 items: :leftovers::sitrus_berry::occa_berry::mental_herb:
Run Leftovers if you want more safety into Mega Lopunny and Mega Staraptor. It also makes it much easier to PP stall defensive teams in the long run.
Run Sitrus Berry if Leftovers is already taken by someone else who ABSOLUTELY needs it.
Run Occa Berry if you need Corviknight to be able to trade with Volcarona and Blaziken if needed.
Run Mental Herb if you want that extra insurance against Taunt and Encore Hisuian Samurott.
:slowking-galar: Item choice and move choice are very dependant from one another, and will usually be picked together to bait and punish specific threats.
Run Leftovers alongside Calm Mind or Psyshock if you need Slowking to be as strong as possible into Mega Floette
Run Shuca Berry alongside Ice Beam if you want to bait and punish Garchomp
Run Colbur Berry alongside Flamethrower to punish early Kingambit plays, and answer Mega Scizor. It's also good into Sneasler if going with Psyshock
:samurott-hisui: This is the most flexible slot. It can run a wide variety of sets, with various move combinations to answer different threats. They all run Ceaseless Edge with NO exception.
Bulky Black Glasses is the wallbreaking option, most apt at pressuring Corviknight, punching holes, and making sure that at least one layer of Spikes sticks. It also boasts the strongest Sucker Punch, and has enough bulk to tank a Thunder Punch from Mega Metagross. It is also the slowest variant. It will always run a priority, either Sucker Punch or Aqua Jet, and either Sacred Sword, Encore, or Taunt in the 4th slot.
Fast Black Glasses hits slightly less hard and has less staying power, but is faster than the bulky variants of Hamurott. It will always run Sacred Sword for opposing Samurott, and will often run Swords Dance alongside a priority, usually Aqua Jet.
Choice Scarf is the less wallbreaking oriented one, used when teams absolutely need more Speed control outside of priority. They are good at making a team safer into fast threats such as Mega Raichu Y, Mega Delphox, and Mega Metagross. They also are the fastest variant, which is relevant given that Hamurott is omnipresent. They will always run Sacred Sword, and a combination of Aqua Cutter, Aqua Jet, and Flip Turn in the last 2 slots.
IV. Weaknesses
While it is the #1 archetype of the tier, these 4 by themselves are weak to a lot of threats you'll need to cover with your Mega slot and your 6th slot. Here are the common ones:
:hydreigon::samurott-hisui::kingambit: Dark type attackers tend to do very well into this core, as Hamurott is the sole resistance.
:blaziken::ceruledge::volcarona::delphox-mega: Fire-type attackers can easily demolish this core due to the lack of solid resistances.
:meganium-mega::raichu-mega-y: Extremely strong special attackers that can hit Glowking neutrally, such as Mega Meganium and Mega Raichu Y, can break through the core with good plays.
:aegislash::dragapult: Ghost-types can easily spam Shadow Ball and eventually break through Hamurott.
:annihilape: Annihilape pretty much 1v4s this core from the get go. You WILL need a Pokemon able to handle it consistently.
:mawile-mega::metagross-mega: These two wallbreakers can consistently force the core to sacrifice something. Mega Mawile is pretty much unwallable and almost always forces a KO, while Mega Metagross is faster than even Garchomp and can eventually get past Corviknight thanks to Thunder Punch, though Leftovers Corviknight can definitely put up a good fight if kept healthy.
:scizor-mega: Mega Scizor threatens a KO on Garchomp with +2 Bullet Punch worryingly early, and can easily outlast and set up on the rest of the core.
:garchomp: Ironically, the Mixed LO Garchomp we use in this core is also one of its greatest threats, as it can punch huge holes everywhere and pressure Corviknight hard to get Stealth Rock to stick.
:pelipper::swampert-mega::archaludon: Rain has little trouble obliterating this core.
:froslass-mega::charizard-mega-x::charizard-mega-y::crabominable-mega::alakazam-mega::barbaracle-mega::espathra::gyarados-mega::medicham-mega::pyroar-mega::scovillain-mega: This is the 'random bullshit go' category. Threats that aren't common, are hard to build around and be consistent with, and by all accounts should probably not be used in any serious team. However, they do have good matchups into the Big 4 on paper. Their issue lies into usually thudding hard into the 5th and 6th slot of a team and offensive pressure in general.
I picked Mega Floette as my Mega because... It's strong.
Immediately, the team showed a blatant weakness to Fire type attackers, especially Volcarona, Blaziken, and Ceruledge. So, for my 6th slot, I picked an Adamant Aqua Tauros with Mystic Water and Aqua Jet to have a consistent answer to these Fire-type breakers. It can also switch into Hamurott early, and threatens Rain with boosted Wave Crashes and Aqua Jets, and has Close Combat for Archaludon.
The team looked like it needed more speed control, so I made Hamurott Choice Scarf to bring some more safety against fast attackers such as Mega Raichu Y, Mega Metagross, and Mega Delphox. I picked Flip Turn to have another pivot that can go into Mega Floette and it avoids having to always lock into Ceaseless Edge if there is a Mega Mawile in the enemy team for example. Sacred Sword is there to hit opposing Hamurott as well as Kingambit.
Because both my 5th and 6th slot are offensive Pokemon, it makes it possible to play around slow wallbreakers like Mega Mawile through keeping the momentum up during the game.
I gave Corviknight Leftovers, since Occa Berry to trade with Blaziken and Volcarona is not necessary thanks to Aqua Tauros. This allows Corviknight to be much more comfortable into Mega Lopunny and Mega Staraptor, as well as defensive Pokemon, making it much easier to switch in and start PP stalling.
Since I gave Leftovers to Corviknight, Slowking needed another item. I decided to go with Colbur Berry, so that Slowking can tank a +2 Knock Off from Mega Scizor and retaliate with a strong Flamethrower, as Mega Scizor would otherwise be a difficult matchup to overcome. Finally, Calm Mind is here to ensure that Slowking can take on Mega Floette reliably.
The final change was running Psychic on Mega Floette in the 4th slot, allowing it to beat Toxapex by itself.
VI. Alternatives to the Big 4?
These picks can substitute for specific members of the big 4. But never Hamurott. That always stays.
:dragalge-mega: Mega Dragalge is an alternative to Glowking if you want to be rock solid against Mega Meganium,Mega Raichu Y, and Mega Charizard Y.
:hippowdon: A tankier alternative to Garchomp with access to reliable recovery. It brings phazing with Whirlwind, and can tank various stuff like Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard Y, Archaludon... If running Sitrus Berry or no item, it's also very good at making sure Ceruledge and Aegislash don't run through your team easily.
:clefable: Clefable's claim to fame is its ability to switch into Ceaseless Edge and force Hamurott out. It can also set Rocks, and can even run Healing Wish.
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash brings a difficult-to-block Volt Switch and can spread burn quite efficiently. It has a wide range of applications... which I will not be explaining here sorry this post is already very long
:toxapex::slowbro::gliscor::tinkaton: ...and more niche stuff that would take too long to explain :) experiment!
RANK 2 BULKY OFFENSE TEAM WITH NO BIG 4, HIPPOWDON OR EXCADRILL:
There's been sayings in the champs OU cord of 'The Big 4' and how it is impossible to build a 'good bulky offense' without the 4 of Samurott-Hisui, Garchomp, Corviknight and Slowking-Galar on the same team. With Samurott and its dominance, Corviknight and its reliable removal and typing, Slowking-Galar and its intoxicating Regenerator and special bulk and Garchomp being annoying. I have decided to make it my mission to make a bulky offense that did not feature the Big 4. This was made even harder by swordisbored and them being a shit and saying not to use Hippowdon or Excadrill so theres that added challenge.
TEAM BUILDING PROCESS
Immediately I wanted to start off with a core of :kingambit: and :metagross-mega: , these two formed a really potent offensive core with Metagross being able to chip down Corviknight and other physical walls for Black Glasses Kingambit to clean late game in the back. Kingambit is a super strong pokemon and without the ability to use Samurott this seemed logical.
I then needed a good check to Samurott-Hisui, with its dominance in the metagame I needed a Pokemon that could threaten it offensively, I also needed a good check to Grounds like Garchomp and Scarf Excadrill. This is why I settled on :chesnaught: with its good typing and its ability to set Spikes, this Pokemon was invaluable to my team both defensively and also pressuring the team offensively with hazards. However without Garchomp, Hippowdon or Excadrill at my disposal I needed a physical ground type that could handle Blaziken, Mega Metagross and can also set Stealth Rock. I decided to test out :gliscor: however due to Gliscor's limited healing and lesser physical bulk than something like Hippowdon or Tankchomp I found it underwhelming. Then I fixated on :swampert: , its natural great defensive typing alongside Chesnaught made them two a great physical core.
After that I needed a spin blocker, for me this was no contest I wanted to use :dragapult: specifically a wisp set. This will be my fast mon for speed control and also a Pokemon that can spread status with Will-O-Wisp.
However the last Pokemon to settle on was hard, I needed a longer term Fairy resist but I also needed a Poison type for Toxic Spikes, a Spcially Defensive Pokemon, a sturdy Water Resist and Hazard Removal. I initially tried Specially Defensive :hatterene: however this just led to me getting smoked by Floette, I tried using a :glimmora: with bulk investment to handle fairies but then I just got smoked by Primarina. I even tried using :victreebel-mega: and replaced Metagross however that was just stupid. I settled on a Specially Defensive :toxapex: as I thought the hazard issue could be solved through careful playing and it indeed was the best so I settled on that.
The team was initially rocky at first however it very soon after began winning games back to back and thus this is where it left off:
TEAM MEMBERS:
:sv/kingambit:
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Level: 50
EVs: 14 HP / 32 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Kowtow Cleave
- Standard Black Glasses Kingambit for breaking past defensive Pokemon such as Corviknight and Tankchomp. This is usually used for breaking however it can be a last resort Dragapult or Meowscarada switch in. Speed is for Corviknight however I decided to creep a little bit more for Pokemon that speed creeped Corviknight. I don't know if this was relevant but it might've been!
- Metagross is a very slept on offensive Pokemon which I see slandered due to its shaky MU into Samurott-Hisui and Garchomp, however I had a great switch in to Samurott in Chesnaught and Garchomp I felt would'nt be a safe switch in as a result of hazard chip plus Meteor Mash. Went with Bullet Punch last as the team was a bit weak to Hex Dragapult and Ice Punch wasn't really relevant due to a great Garchomp and Dragonite MU. This can also serve as a Fairy check switching once or twice into Mega Floette.
:sv/chesnaught:
raichu y my ass (Chesnaught) @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 29 Def / 5 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Chesnaught and its role on the team is quite selt explanatory, Spike setter that also helps check Samurott-Hisui and Garchomp. It was even better in testing with it being able to deal with so many physical attackers to Non Psychic-Fangs Mega Metagross to Kingambit to even hard walling Mega Raichu Y with it being completely immune to Zap Cannon and Focus Blast and being resistant to Grass Knot and Surf. If it doesn't have Alluring Voice which it rarely does due to it wanting its other coverage then Raichu becomes Iron Defense set up fodder. Even though Hisuian Decidueye has Defog and U-Turn Chesnaughts greater physical bulk makes it much better at stomaching hits from physical attackers.
EV's are to outspeed Corviknight as per usual and even with Brave Bird it is Iron Defense set up fodder
- Swampert was originally there to be budget Garchomp however its defensive role has greatly exceeded my expectations. It has great physical bulk even living +2 Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat from full and with a special set with Ice Beam can nuke Tankchomp while also having Stealth Rock and it being able to get a slow Flip Turn against Corviknight. It also matches better against Pokemon such as Triple Axel Quaquaval due to its Ice neutrality. Overall very underrated Pokemon, defintely deserves to be a tier or two higher than it would be on the VR.
- Standard Wisp Hex Pult, helps annoy defensive mons with Will-O-Wisp, can make breaking a lot easier on both sides. Acts as a spin blocker when nessesary and can be an emergency Fire and Water resist.
- Specially Defensive Toxapex helps round out this teams weaknesses to Fairy types as well as Toxic Spikes. Payapa Berry is there for Mega Delphox to get a Toxic with Liquidation to deal with Substitute Pokemon like Mega-Floette and Delphox. The Defensive EVS I believe are for Blaziken with Haze to deal with Annihilape and cheese Pokemon.
Hazard Stack :samurott-hisui: : Usually hazard stack will consist of Hisuian Samurott as the Spiker, this is a free Chesnaught opportunity to come in and set up Spikes forcing both sides to take hazard chip. If it is Garchomp that sets the hazards then lead Swampert and click Ice Beam to cripple it so that Metagross can kill it with Meteor Mash. For Balance this will force in Corviknight to Defog, however for Hazard Stack the aim is to break the opponents team before yours, this can consist of Dragapult coming in and clicking status and Hex and Metagross clicking buttons to weaken physical walls. Kingambit is the main key here being able to eliminate the remaning Pokemon with hazard chip.
Annihilape :annihilape: : Most sets are fine however Substitute is the big one. For this you just come in with Toxapex and you PP stall it out of Bulk Ups, Toxapex+Chesnaught can fully drain Annihilape out of PP just make sure not to attack into it or else it could be very scary. But you always have Iron defense if that happens and Chesnaught can even survive +6 crit Drain Punch.
Blaziken :blaziken: : DO NOT LET THIS THING GET A SWORDS DANCE LATE GAME. If it does then it might as well be over if it is Life Orb Earthquake and Swampert is heavily chipped. Kingambit+Metagross priority can take care of it but your team will be verry crippled so just try and set hazards to pressure Blaziken and always keep up pressure.
Mega Meganium :meganium-mega: : You have to play around Meganium and its Weather Ball/Solar Beam. Metagross can offensively check it so there is an easy way out but you can also try and get a Toxic off with Toxapex. Make sure to keep up hazards if it is Substitute however that is usually on more offensive teams so it will be apparent.
Mega Mawile :mawile-mega: : Same vein with Blaziken, just try and not let this thing get free set up. Chesnaught can outspeed and Iron Defense up and beat it but Metagross can also do it with Bullet Punch as well.
Dragapult :dragapult: : This is actually the biggest threat to the team. The gameplan is just like any one of these, set up hazards and pressure its switch in opportunities. Toxapex can survive a boosted Hex and click Toxic with Kingambit being able to revenge kill and Swampert clicking Ice Beam on Dragapult that want to burn it. Metagross can also pick it off after hazard chip.
https://pokepast.es/d689c90f873aec5d
This is showcased to prove that building Bulky Offense is not 'solved' and that it is very much possible without the Big 4 and quite good as well. For anyone that wants to reach Rank 1 and is put off by using the same few Pokemon then it is very much doable. Also to swordisbored if you really are the self proclaimed 'number 1 champions ou player' then I challenge you to reach rank 1 WITHOUT THE BIG 4 OR HIPPOWDON OR EXCADRILL.
I would agree that BO isn't solved. However, I think this tier is still not in the greatest state currently because answering the megas in tandem with one another is quite difficult - even if you plug one hole with something cool and unique - like say running Slowbro for Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, and Delphox - you wind up opening up a gashing hole to another threat like Mega Meganium that isn't easily closed out by running something like Slowking-G or Skeledirge (there are a few synergy issues). Mega opp cost means that most of these megas also are going to naturally have lower usage at least since they are all competing with one another, so I guess cheating and not packing an answer is "fine" but its going to create big MU swings depending on if you have the right mega or not - which IMO isn't the healthiest dynamic. I think what doesn't help matters is that these megas are able to reinvent themselves to beat their standard counterplay. There are a fair few regular mons that also feel really limited in what their counterplay is, like Samurott-H especially, or the Fires.
Perhaps this is more of a personal issue - I am not the best team builder after all, but I do expect there to be a few bans following the current tour.
