does quash work can you make force your opponent to move last the first turn you’re out?
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Metagame Trademarked - Zacian-Crowned freed, Tera Blast banned, and 50% Recover Moves + Strength Sap limited to 1!
- Thread starter Clas
- Start date
Competitive success is for satisfaction, enjoyment is what matters :)
No, because Quash only applies during the turn that your Pokemon is switching in.
When your Pokemon is switching in, it is not attacking, so Quash is effectively useless.
Survey results!
Enjoyability: 6.84/10
Competitiveness: 5.84/10
This isn't great. It means that people are finding the meta both unfun and unbalanced, and hopefully we can rectify this. I would imagine some of this comes from trouble building the tier since it has a very high skill ceiling, but there is definitely gripes from the way the tier plays too.
Not surprised by this, Disable is only really problematic in specific situations, although it can become so on specific stall teams. No action will be taken.
Spikes is a very oppressive Trademark when given time, so there's not much of a surprise here. We will be considering action.
Heal moves are extremely polarising and generally unfavored, and its understandable why. We will be considering action.
Again, a pretty split mix. Due to the very mixed nature of the votes (and because I looked at this wrong, oops) there will be no action on Drifblim at this time. However, we will be watching Drifblim throughout the month.
People generally don't dislike Sinistcha. This really is surprising considering how much hate there is for Heal moves, but there will be no action.
Pretty clear-cut. No action.
This is by far the most polarising option. This will have its own section later in the post.
Other mentions
not happening, theyre not broken on their own
(ps: there are some cool ideas here, but you can just run snowscape on kyurem!)
not happening, as it needs specific support to really do anything as a boosting breaker and grass is easy to resist
fundamentally would break the tier and make it unfun, so no
endure would be probably unbanned if disable went, but endure + disable creates near-unbreakable loops on their own. wish would need to be tested first, but it'd likely still be broken. imprison restrict could be considered, but for now no since drifblim isnt receiving action.
this is kind of unenforceable, its too broad. 1ac on heal would only include 50% heal moves and strength sap, though.
Let's get onto the meat of the post now. To clarify, I voted on this alone since I got no responses over the past 5 days, but I raised points with multiple people both on PS! and in the OMs Discord server as to collect as much information as possible to remove as much bias as possible.
Spikes are now restricted! Zacian and Zacian-C are being suspect tested!
:tr23: (:meowscarada::ogerpon-wellspring::deoxys-speed::sandy-shocks:)
Spikes are way too good. The simple fact is that setting Spikes for no cost breaks the tier fundamentally. Being able to set Stealth Rocks to remove 1/8 max HP is strong, but not overwhelming, but stacking a variable 1/8 to 1/4 extra is way too strong, especially when removal options are pretty dire. The four Pokemon listed are the main ones affected by this restriction, but all have other options they can use in order to retain their viability.
:zacian-crowned:
The original plan was to study Zacian-C during the survey period to analyse its effect on the tier. However, that didn't happen since the server was never hotpatched. This means that we are doing things the slow, more official way now that there's no risk of preventing tiering action. Do note that Zac-C will be forced to use Intrepid Sword, even despite team preview suggesting otherwise.
:zacian:
This also means that we can effectively test Zacian. Hero Zacian is a much more flexible but weaker alternative to Zac-C that retains its Attack boost every switchout thanks to Howl as a Trademark. We are very much aware that it's yet another Uber that's being unbanned, but its power is more akin to Zamazenta in OU for example where it is strong but not exactly noteworthy compared to other Ubers. More on this Pokemon will be mentioned in its suspect test post, which will be linked when the suspect test is live.
:tr26: (:sinistcha::roaring-moon::milotic::cresselia::blissey::gouging-fire:)
Heal moves aren't too splashable without significant cost right now. Milotic is very good, yes, and Sinistcha is genuinely borderline broken, but the more heal move users there are the more the team suffers when it comes to true defensive abilities (IDef/Amnesia, Screens, Disable etc). We do understand the frustration brought about by these moves, which is why I will be writing a post on how to actively address these moves, but for the time being there will be no action. This does not mean there will not be any in the future - the Spikes restrict will only make them stronger. However, it is very much possible to overwhelm these Pokemon and they are also extremely susceptible to Knock Off, so just keep that in mind while we analyse their place in the new meta.
Been trying to ladder for the suspect test because i really like the concept of this tier even though i think its been managed horrendously since it was last OMotM.
I dont really like talking on smogon but im just so confused and I really cant wrap my head around the decision to restrict spikes without also restricting healing moves because that was the only thing allowing teams to make progress vs teams that spam recovery mons. I also dont get why disable as uncompetitive as it is, is still allowed to run around. You cannot use choiced mons in fear of running into the combination of Protect on a mon and disable on the other which makes Choiced breakers hard to use. An example in this one game out of the many i’ve played: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9trademarked-2664404516-7q2ipgabp7quw16h8f2focog2y5un8bpw
Successfully trapped and forced tera from a corv only to run into disable and suddenly my main breaker in meow is just suddenly rendered useless. Like i mentioned, I really like this tier and i’ve been waiting for it to be OMotM again for a long time. I just wish there wasnt a lot of skilless cheese like autorecover and disable around.
I dont really like talking on smogon but im just so confused and I really cant wrap my head around the decision to restrict spikes without also restricting healing moves because that was the only thing allowing teams to make progress vs teams that spam recovery mons. I also dont get why disable as uncompetitive as it is, is still allowed to run around. You cannot use choiced mons in fear of running into the combination of Protect on a mon and disable on the other which makes Choiced breakers hard to use. An example in this one game out of the many i’ve played: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9trademarked-2664404516-7q2ipgabp7quw16h8f2focog2y5un8bpw
Successfully trapped and forced tera from a corv only to run into disable and suddenly my main breaker in meow is just suddenly rendered useless. Like i mentioned, I really like this tier and i’ve been waiting for it to be OMotM again for a long time. I just wish there wasnt a lot of skilless cheese like autorecover and disable around.
I got reqs and voted in the thread, but given the post above I wanted to air my thoughts out here, since they are related (that's also me in the replay above rip)
I tried Zacian-Crowned out and it was very strong, especially the sub + sd set. I don't play a lot of ubers so I'm not very familiar with Zacian, but I was shocked by how tanky it is, while also being one of the strongest and fastest threats around. Atleast four times it clutched victory from the jaws of defeat by sweeping late game.
Yeah it can be widdled down, but in the hands of a good player it's still stupidly strong, fast and bulky. It can pick and choose its counters. It's main "counter" Corviknight is fodder for tera ghost and is also super common, so every team is super prepped for Corviknight already. It's just more unnecessary pressure on Corviknight.
Second point on the ladder generally, I think it's definitely shifted towards fat and boring teams with spikes being banned. Spikes kept the game moving atleast and let you keep the pressure up. Without spikes, the meta has gotten fatter, bulkier and boring. I've ran a full stall team w/ multiple recovery TM moves because why not, as long as I don't lose I will eventually PP stall my opponent out. Spikes being banned has also boosted the viability of revavroom, deo-s, valiant, meow and zacian - since they're not forced to run HDBs.
--
But the question I kept asking while laddering is why are we even doing this? How is Zacian the most urgent matter that requires a suspect test?
This seems like an opinion shared by others I've talked to in the OM room, on the ladder and in this thread. Why out of all the things that do require a discussion, recovery moves, spikes, disable, darkrai, revavroom etc. are we ignoring those and jumping to unbanning ubers? And why an A+ ranked ubers at that?
And, to be frank, I'm not a huge fan of all of these decisions being made by one person. Like, I get it if the rest of the council haven't been active/voted, but expand the council then. The management of this OM was a controversy last time for a reason.
I you didn't know better, your best guess would be that action would be taken on recovery moves (50%!), not spikes (28%) but instead the opposite happened.
There's no point in holding a survey if decision are ultimately made by one person, who acts counteractively to the results of the survey regardless.
This suspect test is silly and shouldn't have been a priority.
I tried Zacian-Crowned out and it was very strong, especially the sub + sd set. I don't play a lot of ubers so I'm not very familiar with Zacian, but I was shocked by how tanky it is, while also being one of the strongest and fastest threats around. Atleast four times it clutched victory from the jaws of defeat by sweeping late game.
Yeah it can be widdled down, but in the hands of a good player it's still stupidly strong, fast and bulky. It can pick and choose its counters. It's main "counter" Corviknight is fodder for tera ghost and is also super common, so every team is super prepped for Corviknight already. It's just more unnecessary pressure on Corviknight.
Second point on the ladder generally, I think it's definitely shifted towards fat and boring teams with spikes being banned. Spikes kept the game moving atleast and let you keep the pressure up. Without spikes, the meta has gotten fatter, bulkier and boring. I've ran a full stall team w/ multiple recovery TM moves because why not, as long as I don't lose I will eventually PP stall my opponent out. Spikes being banned has also boosted the viability of revavroom, deo-s, valiant, meow and zacian - since they're not forced to run HDBs.
--
But the question I kept asking while laddering is why are we even doing this? How is Zacian the most urgent matter that requires a suspect test?
This seems like an opinion shared by others I've talked to in the OM room, on the ladder and in this thread. Why out of all the things that do require a discussion, recovery moves, spikes, disable, darkrai, revavroom etc. are we ignoring those and jumping to unbanning ubers? And why an A+ ranked ubers at that?
And, to be frank, I'm not a huge fan of all of these decisions being made by one person. Like, I get it if the rest of the council haven't been active/voted, but expand the council then. The management of this OM was a controversy last time for a reason.
I you didn't know better, your best guess would be that action would be taken on recovery moves (50%!), not spikes (28%) but instead the opposite happened.
There's no point in holding a survey if decision are ultimately made by one person, who acts counteractively to the results of the survey regardless.
This suspect test is silly and shouldn't have been a priority.
im only saying this once. read the post. i am too tired to care to explain this further when everything is already explained. bold is to highlight
building guide up by monday, did not realise people couldnt break through glorified regenvests. somehow noone has highlighted sinsitcha which is the only broken one of them. if example teams are needed, here you go:
Spikes getting banned feels great. Instead of me being able to just spam Spikes and Stealth Rock while the opponent's Pokemon cry as I Knock Off their entire team, now I actually have to use Toxic Spikes and actually get more pressured by Choice Band/Specs and Poison Pokemon.
The Zacians are both massive issues in my opinion, but that's covered by my suspect post so I'll digress.
:revavroom:
Revavroom is certainly a weird Pokemon to me. The only set it ever wants to use is Choice Band/Life Orb Gunk Shot, Spin Out, Temper Flare, High Horsepower, and/or Parting Shot. There is immediately the problem that neither of Revavroom's STABs can hit Steel supereffectively (this is important for Tera Steel Pokemon), High Horsepower allows easy switching for Flying types, and Temper Flare is a measly 75 BP. In addition, because Spin Out lowers Revavroom's speed, it is much easier to revenge kill than other fast sweepers like Lilligant-Hisui or Iron Valiant. The final issue with Revavroom is that both Gunk Shot and Spin Out are only 8 PP, which both can either be eliminated with Spite or stalled out long enough using good predictions.
None of these flaws change the fact that Revavroom is a dangerous wallbreaker. The only real defensive Pokemon that can fully stop Revavroom is Iron Defense/Reflect Corviknight, and many teams are already packing ways to make its life a living hell through auto-hazards and Knock Off. It can 2HKO Alomomola, Pecharunt, and Sinistcha.
I personally think Revavroom is... somewhat dangerous? I don't even use Corviknight myself, but I don't really struggle with it much since it's checked by Bulk Up Great Tusk and can be scouted with using Alomomola.
:sinistcha:
Sinistcha can get banned though. You might say that you can easily just use Clear Amulet on your wallbreaker to stop it from getting neutralized by Strength Sap, but then you forget that Sinistcha can use Iron Defense as well, and suddenly your wallbreaker looks extremely foolish getting repeatedly sent out and dying to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. Strength Sap Sinistcha can be sent out on almost any offensive Pokemon and easily threaten to burn them with Matcha Gotcha to get chip damage, and Iron Defense Sinistchas will just destroy you if you try and adapt to Strength Sap.
The Zacians are both massive issues in my opinion, but that's covered by my suspect post so I'll digress.
:revavroom:
Revavroom is certainly a weird Pokemon to me. The only set it ever wants to use is Choice Band/Life Orb Gunk Shot, Spin Out, Temper Flare, High Horsepower, and/or Parting Shot. There is immediately the problem that neither of Revavroom's STABs can hit Steel supereffectively (this is important for Tera Steel Pokemon), High Horsepower allows easy switching for Flying types, and Temper Flare is a measly 75 BP. In addition, because Spin Out lowers Revavroom's speed, it is much easier to revenge kill than other fast sweepers like Lilligant-Hisui or Iron Valiant. The final issue with Revavroom is that both Gunk Shot and Spin Out are only 8 PP, which both can either be eliminated with Spite or stalled out long enough using good predictions.
None of these flaws change the fact that Revavroom is a dangerous wallbreaker. The only real defensive Pokemon that can fully stop Revavroom is Iron Defense/Reflect Corviknight, and many teams are already packing ways to make its life a living hell through auto-hazards and Knock Off. It can 2HKO Alomomola, Pecharunt, and Sinistcha.
I personally think Revavroom is... somewhat dangerous? I don't even use Corviknight myself, but I don't really struggle with it much since it's checked by Bulk Up Great Tusk and can be scouted with using Alomomola.
:sinistcha:
Sinistcha can get banned though. You might say that you can easily just use Clear Amulet on your wallbreaker to stop it from getting neutralized by Strength Sap, but then you forget that Sinistcha can use Iron Defense as well, and suddenly your wallbreaker looks extremely foolish getting repeatedly sent out and dying to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. Strength Sap Sinistcha can be sent out on almost any offensive Pokemon and easily threaten to burn them with Matcha Gotcha to get chip damage, and Iron Defense Sinistchas will just destroy you if you try and adapt to Strength Sap.
Genuinely just unrestrict endure ddance/tw/ agility (even taunt) and watch the metagame fix itself. Spikes, speed control, recovery and disable/endure all balance each other.(Please don't say endure+disable is broken when you're wasting two tms on non stat boosting or recovery tms for essentially a gimmick that can be countered by switching and is fairly predictable).
At the current rate we'll just ban recovery since no hazards, then bulkup/cm since no way to beat them in the long run which will lead to banning screens bec team wide amnesia/iron def is impossible to break through without stat boosts.
At the current rate we'll just ban recovery since no hazards, then bulkup/cm since no way to beat them in the long run which will lead to banning screens bec team wide amnesia/iron def is impossible to break through without stat boosts.
I feel like screens as abilities are too accessible for what they do, and removing them is too difficult since on bulkier teams there's always a switch in if said screen is up making the breaking part of facing a stallier team impossible, especially since mixed attackers arent really too prominent.
Anyway i think it's worth looking into
Anyway i think it's worth looking into
I think recovery moves are fine, in a meta where breakers are getting a boosting move upon switchin+band/specs, which results in a 2.25x power boost, I don't think better regenerator is particularly egregious. It definitely doesn't take 200 turns to break a double regen tm team in my experience. If regen moves were restricted as tm, I think we would see a more or less total disappearance of bulky balance, semi-stall, and stall teams from the meta.
So, I'm a big Falinks Fan, my favorite mon of all time, and I kinda wanted to try and build a team featuring it. My usual core has been Falinks Corviknight and Manaphy as the mons that are ALWAYS present + some sort of special wall, but I struggle to decide the remaining mons. Can yall give me suggestions please? This is what I got atm:
Moral Support Lads (Falinks) @ Life Orb
Ability: noretreat
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
Falinks' role here are as cleaners, sometimes I Switch between Lorb or Band but the set is still the same. The most important part of it is the Tera. We know No Retreat prevents you from Switching out, but this Effect doesn't apply to ghosts since they can't get trapped, so by giving Falinks said Tera, I am able to Switch out, removing the entire drawback of it.
Armored Birb (Corviknight) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Defense
Level: 99
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
Just your typical Corviknight set, being able to sit infront of a lot of physical attackers and either remove hazards or Pivot out.
Falinks' Best Fren (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: heartswap
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Take Heart
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Flip Turn
What I would say is probably the most important mon of this team, since Psych Up is everywhere, meaning any mon could copy my Falinks' Omniboost and do a reverse sweep. Manaphy here stops that by stealing the stats back to itself.
Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: calmmind
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 24 Def / 180 SpA / 8 SpD / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Psychic Noise
- Surf
- Moonblast
And the AV Primarina set that I just stole from the offense team of the same name. What can I say? It's a pretty good wall and does a very important job in chiping down and trapping important threats to Falinks with Whirlpool.
(Just noticed my team is kinda weak to Kyurem)
Moral Support Lads (Falinks) @ Life Orb
Ability: noretreat
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
Falinks' role here are as cleaners, sometimes I Switch between Lorb or Band but the set is still the same. The most important part of it is the Tera. We know No Retreat prevents you from Switching out, but this Effect doesn't apply to ghosts since they can't get trapped, so by giving Falinks said Tera, I am able to Switch out, removing the entire drawback of it.
Armored Birb (Corviknight) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Defense
Level: 99
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
Just your typical Corviknight set, being able to sit infront of a lot of physical attackers and either remove hazards or Pivot out.
Falinks' Best Fren (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: heartswap
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Take Heart
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Flip Turn
What I would say is probably the most important mon of this team, since Psych Up is everywhere, meaning any mon could copy my Falinks' Omniboost and do a reverse sweep. Manaphy here stops that by stealing the stats back to itself.
Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: calmmind
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 24 Def / 180 SpA / 8 SpD / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Psychic Noise
- Surf
- Moonblast
And the AV Primarina set that I just stole from the offense team of the same name. What can I say? It's a pretty good wall and does a very important job in chiping down and trapping important threats to Falinks with Whirlpool.
(Just noticed my team is kinda weak to Kyurem)
Last edited:
Took a break from PokeAAA to climb to rank 1 here on an alt. Been a wild month for me but it was a nice breath of fresh air to play a new format, and I have a few thoughts. Will also share the team I used to climb, it really has not strayed incredibly far from its original concept outside of one big change in mons.
Pecharunt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Recover
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb
THE physical wall of physical walls, literally takes on the entire format almost entirely by itself and I haven't the faintest fucking clue why I don't see Recover Pecha everywhere. It genuinely cannot be 2HKO'd by almost any mon, and as such can always force progress between Toxic, Rocky Helmet and Hex (honestly should be SBall for Corvi specifically). And if they ever dare try to setup like with Zacian on you to break through you, womp womp you go into Ditto and reverse sweep them. Genuinely the most bullshit mon ever.
Quaquaval @ Assault Vest
Ability: Roost
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Insanely underrated Assault Vest special check/pivot. Has so much role compression with Uturn, Spin, Knock and healing with Roost and its typing lets it take on a staggering amount of threats like Specs CM Darkrais. It is a crime I don't see this thing more, its only issue is it struggles into ghosts but who cares when you can just... Uturn out lmfao
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Light Screen
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog
The other special wall, takes on other threats like Iron Valiant, and serves as a backup hazard remover. Very good special wall with its typing, I think the physical wall set is a bit overrated with how easy it is to chip down if it gets knocked.
Ting-Lu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: stealthrock
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Spikes
- Rest
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake
It's the bullshit powercreep mon that sets every hazard in the game! Nah but seriously, the spikes restrict does literally fuckall for Ting, like sure Stonks don't have as much disgusting immediate damage when stacked but if anything Rocks are better anyways as they are guaranteed and often permanent chip damage that racks up fast. Rest to keep it healthy and fight back against status, and EQ over Ruination because I've missed too many fucking Ruins against Corvis and ran into too many annoying ass Moths so I slotted in EQ instead. EVs are to specifically always live a Tera Ice Modest Eleki TB after spikes while dumping the rest into physdef iirc. IVs are to always underspeed Corvi.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
I genuinely do not know how this actual demon isn't banned imma be so real, much less not put at the top of every tier list. Shits on every single attacker that uses a setup move in the format and reverse sweeps them, has free healing by leeching off recovery mons like Milo. Sets hazards as well against opposing rocks mons. Literally just does everything lmfao
Sinistcha @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Strength Sap
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Calm Mind
- Hex
- Curse
Used to be an Iron Valiant and was a semi-stall team until I finally pulled the trigger (aka the Tusk matchup was too spotty and IVal while a bullshit strong button masher using Specs CM and Tera Fairy MB just... didn't fit the team) so I went with this. Forces progress with burns from Matcha, Curse damage and if all else fails using CM to break through bulky teams. All while it literally shits on every single physical attacker with Strength Sap spam alongside Pecha, and being an amazing second spin blocker because hazard spam stays the best thing ever. VERY strong mon, arguably ban-worthy imho.
Anywho onto my thoughts with the tier. Of course, as a stall player first and foremost my takes are biased so take that as you will.
Zacian is the most mid thing ever. Idk if the alt counted for the req, can't remember if I made it before the suspect but I digress I'll share my thoughts. It just... idk, it's a fast attacker with meh coverage? Like, we have plenty of those but it just can't break through bulky teams for the life of it, and gets worn down so insanely fast because Crown can't have boots and Hero needs a CB to do anything (and even with a CB it's pretty weak imo). Like, idk, it's a physical attacker that literally can't handle ghosts and the two best and imo should be most common walls literally walk all over it.
As for the rest of the tier not named Zacian, yeah recovery spam needs to GO. This style of team is way too easy to just plug and play. Sure, games may take a bit longer but it is almost guaranteed a win against so many teams because you just outlast them. The only small sorta weakness is if they run a Defog ability mon but like- you can threaten mons not named Corvi with Toxic from Pecha, or Corvi with burns from Sin, and if they aren't running boots you just wear them down anyways with rocks. 8 Roost PP only goes so far, and if they are running Roost Corvi you just like... outlast Defog instead.
Idk, it's a very boring way to play but it feels like it almost always guarantees a win for me unless I make a really stupid mistake or get astronomically bad luck. Crits don't matter when you can just keep healing every mon on your team by 50% anyways, and so long as you stay above 12% (or less on rocks resists like Quaq) you just never die. Like, I'd argue the best way to change this is to make it so only 2 mons max can run recovery moves as abilities but the problem also comes from if you ban healing moves or restrict it to only one mon having it, defensive teams would feel so much weaker because of how potent the wallbreakers of the tier are by virtue of the fact almost everything is running around with either 1.5x or 2.25x damage (or even more with things like Growgerpon).
Anyways, fun team, stall stays winning as always and wishing all you lovelies the best :)
Heal Spam Stall
https://pokepast.es/257be8a47fdba1c0
https://pokepast.es/257be8a47fdba1c0
Pecharunt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Recover
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb
THE physical wall of physical walls, literally takes on the entire format almost entirely by itself and I haven't the faintest fucking clue why I don't see Recover Pecha everywhere. It genuinely cannot be 2HKO'd by almost any mon, and as such can always force progress between Toxic, Rocky Helmet and Hex (honestly should be SBall for Corvi specifically). And if they ever dare try to setup like with Zacian on you to break through you, womp womp you go into Ditto and reverse sweep them. Genuinely the most bullshit mon ever.
Quaquaval @ Assault Vest
Ability: Roost
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Insanely underrated Assault Vest special check/pivot. Has so much role compression with Uturn, Spin, Knock and healing with Roost and its typing lets it take on a staggering amount of threats like Specs CM Darkrais. It is a crime I don't see this thing more, its only issue is it struggles into ghosts but who cares when you can just... Uturn out lmfao
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Light Screen
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog
The other special wall, takes on other threats like Iron Valiant, and serves as a backup hazard remover. Very good special wall with its typing, I think the physical wall set is a bit overrated with how easy it is to chip down if it gets knocked.
Ting-Lu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: stealthrock
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Spikes
- Rest
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake
It's the bullshit powercreep mon that sets every hazard in the game! Nah but seriously, the spikes restrict does literally fuckall for Ting, like sure Stonks don't have as much disgusting immediate damage when stacked but if anything Rocks are better anyways as they are guaranteed and often permanent chip damage that racks up fast. Rest to keep it healthy and fight back against status, and EQ over Ruination because I've missed too many fucking Ruins against Corvis and ran into too many annoying ass Moths so I slotted in EQ instead. EVs are to specifically always live a Tera Ice Modest Eleki TB after spikes while dumping the rest into physdef iirc. IVs are to always underspeed Corvi.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
I genuinely do not know how this actual demon isn't banned imma be so real, much less not put at the top of every tier list. Shits on every single attacker that uses a setup move in the format and reverse sweeps them, has free healing by leeching off recovery mons like Milo. Sets hazards as well against opposing rocks mons. Literally just does everything lmfao
Sinistcha @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Strength Sap
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Calm Mind
- Hex
- Curse
Used to be an Iron Valiant and was a semi-stall team until I finally pulled the trigger (aka the Tusk matchup was too spotty and IVal while a bullshit strong button masher using Specs CM and Tera Fairy MB just... didn't fit the team) so I went with this. Forces progress with burns from Matcha, Curse damage and if all else fails using CM to break through bulky teams. All while it literally shits on every single physical attacker with Strength Sap spam alongside Pecha, and being an amazing second spin blocker because hazard spam stays the best thing ever. VERY strong mon, arguably ban-worthy imho.
Zacian is the most mid thing ever. Idk if the alt counted for the req, can't remember if I made it before the suspect but I digress I'll share my thoughts. It just... idk, it's a fast attacker with meh coverage? Like, we have plenty of those but it just can't break through bulky teams for the life of it, and gets worn down so insanely fast because Crown can't have boots and Hero needs a CB to do anything (and even with a CB it's pretty weak imo). Like, idk, it's a physical attacker that literally can't handle ghosts and the two best and imo should be most common walls literally walk all over it.
As for the rest of the tier not named Zacian, yeah recovery spam needs to GO. This style of team is way too easy to just plug and play. Sure, games may take a bit longer but it is almost guaranteed a win against so many teams because you just outlast them. The only small sorta weakness is if they run a Defog ability mon but like- you can threaten mons not named Corvi with Toxic from Pecha, or Corvi with burns from Sin, and if they aren't running boots you just wear them down anyways with rocks. 8 Roost PP only goes so far, and if they are running Roost Corvi you just like... outlast Defog instead.
Idk, it's a very boring way to play but it feels like it almost always guarantees a win for me unless I make a really stupid mistake or get astronomically bad luck. Crits don't matter when you can just keep healing every mon on your team by 50% anyways, and so long as you stay above 12% (or less on rocks resists like Quaq) you just never die. Like, I'd argue the best way to change this is to make it so only 2 mons max can run recovery moves as abilities but the problem also comes from if you ban healing moves or restrict it to only one mon having it, defensive teams would feel so much weaker because of how potent the wallbreakers of the tier are by virtue of the fact almost everything is running around with either 1.5x or 2.25x damage (or even more with things like Growgerpon).
Anyways, fun team, stall stays winning as always and wishing all you lovelies the best :)
Define “fun” as it is in your dictionaryTook a break from PokeAAA to climb to rank 1 here on an alt. Been a wild month for me but it was a nice breath of fresh air to play a new format, and I have a few thoughts. Will also share the team I used to climb, it really has not strayed incredibly far from its original concept outside of one big change in mons.
View attachment 856022
Heal Spam StallAnywho onto my thoughts with the tier. Of course, as a stall player first and foremost my takes are biased so take that as you will.
https://pokepast.es/257be8a47fdba1c0
Pecharunt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Recover
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb
THE physical wall of physical walls, literally takes on the entire format almost entirely by itself and I haven't the faintest fucking clue why I don't see Recover Pecha everywhere. It genuinely cannot be 2HKO'd by almost any mon, and as such can always force progress between Toxic, Rocky Helmet and Hex (honestly should be SBall for Corvi specifically). And if they ever dare try to setup like with Zacian on you to break through you, womp womp you go into Ditto and reverse sweep them. Genuinely the most bullshit mon ever.
Quaquaval @ Assault Vest
Ability: Roost
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Insanely underrated Assault Vest special check/pivot. Has so much role compression with Uturn, Spin, Knock and healing with Roost and its typing lets it take on a staggering amount of threats like Specs CM Darkrais. It is a crime I don't see this thing more, its only issue is it struggles into ghosts but who cares when you can just... Uturn out lmfao
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Light Screen
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog
The other special wall, takes on other threats like Iron Valiant, and serves as a backup hazard remover. Very good special wall with its typing, I think the physical wall set is a bit overrated with how easy it is to chip down if it gets knocked.
Ting-Lu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: stealthrock
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Spikes
- Rest
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake
It's the bullshit powercreep mon that sets every hazard in the game! Nah but seriously, the spikes restrict does literally fuckall for Ting, like sure Stonks don't have as much disgusting immediate damage when stacked but if anything Rocks are better anyways as they are guaranteed and often permanent chip damage that racks up fast. Rest to keep it healthy and fight back against status, and EQ over Ruination because I've missed too many fucking Ruins against Corvis and ran into too many annoying ass Moths so I slotted in EQ instead. EVs are to specifically always live a Tera Ice Modest Eleki TB after spikes while dumping the rest into physdef iirc. IVs are to always underspeed Corvi.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
I genuinely do not know how this actual demon isn't banned imma be so real, much less not put at the top of every tier list. Shits on every single attacker that uses a setup move in the format and reverse sweeps them, has free healing by leeching off recovery mons like Milo. Sets hazards as well against opposing rocks mons. Literally just does everything lmfao
Sinistcha @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Strength Sap
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Calm Mind
- Hex
- Curse
Used to be an Iron Valiant and was a semi-stall team until I finally pulled the trigger (aka the Tusk matchup was too spotty and IVal while a bullshit strong button masher using Specs CM and Tera Fairy MB just... didn't fit the team) so I went with this. Forces progress with burns from Matcha, Curse damage and if all else fails using CM to break through bulky teams. All while it literally shits on every single physical attacker with Strength Sap spam alongside Pecha, and being an amazing second spin blocker because hazard spam stays the best thing ever. VERY strong mon, arguably ban-worthy imho.
Zacian is the most mid thing ever. Idk if the alt counted for the req, can't remember if I made it before the suspect but I digress I'll share my thoughts. It just... idk, it's a fast attacker with meh coverage? Like, we have plenty of those but it just can't break through bulky teams for the life of it, and gets worn down so insanely fast because Crown can't have boots and Hero needs a CB to do anything (and even with a CB it's pretty weak imo). Like, idk, it's a physical attacker that literally can't handle ghosts and the two best and imo should be most common walls literally walk all over it.
As for the rest of the tier not named Zacian, yeah recovery spam needs to GO. This style of team is way too easy to just plug and play. Sure, games may take a bit longer but it is almost guaranteed a win against so many teams because you just outlast them. The only small sorta weakness is if they run a Defog ability mon but like- you can threaten mons not named Corvi with Toxic from Pecha, or Corvi with burns from Sin, and if they aren't running boots you just wear them down anyways with rocks. 8 Roost PP only goes so far, and if they are running Roost Corvi you just like... outlast Defog instead.
Idk, it's a very boring way to play but it feels like it almost always guarantees a win for me unless I make a really stupid mistake or get astronomically bad luck. Crits don't matter when you can just keep healing every mon on your team by 50% anyways, and so long as you stay above 12% (or less on rocks resists like Quaq) you just never die. Like, I'd argue the best way to change this is to make it so only 2 mons max can run recovery moves as abilities but the problem also comes from if you ban healing moves or restrict it to only one mon having it, defensive teams would feel so much weaker because of how potent the wallbreakers of the tier are by virtue of the fact almost everything is running around with either 1.5x or 2.25x damage (or even more with things like Growgerpon).
Anyways, fun team, stall stays winning as always and wishing all you lovelies the best :)
Wouldn't say I'm particularly great at this OM yet but my current thoughts are: It's fun even if teams can feel a bit samey. I do think Sinistcha is quite annoying, though, especially IDef sets. My main question is why even suspect Zacian? I feel like there were other things worth suspecting (like the prevalence of Screens or maybe even unbanning certain moves as trademarks) other than a pretty damn good uber tier mon that would obviously be good no matter what. I just think there should be a bit more variety in what is allowed even if for a little bit to test its strength in the meta. To end heres a stupid set I thought of for fun lmao.
Zangoose @ Choice Scarf
Ability: honeclaws
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Gunk Shot
- Tera Blast
Zangoose @ Choice Scarf
Ability: honeclaws
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Gunk Shot
- Tera Blast
Alright, gonna share a replay to also give a visual example to explain why I think recovery moves need to be limited to 2 max as abilities. Been laddering a good deal and decided to also ladder my main which is currently sitting at 1526
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9trademarked-2666788806-in314v8jp9j7nh6xgv4qb9075m2se5xpw
So, granted, this is Stall vs Stall (and a Spite Corviknight at that), notoriously boring and slow matchups HOWEVER- attempts at progress CAN be made. Slow, incremental wins such as predicting your opponent to go Ditto and killing it. PP stalling out your opponent's hazard removal, etc. etc.
However, as it stands with the metagame right now, and this even goes for Stall vs Offense, these wins just DO NOT MATTER. It does not matter that you took out a big piece of your opponent's defensive core, because frankly, games can continuously with these types of recovery spam teams just degenerate every single time into swapping between your recovery mons and either slowly wearing your opponent down through hazard damage/status/rocky helmet, or worse, PP stalling them. And hazards literally do not matter because of either boots spam, or the fact you STILL GET A NOTICEABLE HEAL even if your opponent managed to put up Stealth Rocks AND 3 layers of spikes!
And this happens. Every. Single. Game. It is the exact same degenerate strategy and, barring you have proper failsafes to beat certain setup mons (that are kinda cheese otherwise imo), wins almost every game or resolves in a stalemate because the optimal move to do every single time is swap to just another fat mon that gets a free 50% of their HP on switch-in or else you're wasting PP, or just... not healing when it's optimal to heal. Offense while strong really still can't handle a well-built team from my experience playing ladder.
It's a very degenerate gameplay loop and imo is the best strategy bar none to use to win, and the only reason I do not see it on ladder much is because, yeah, a lot of games boil down to just switch spamming and that's boring as bricks to both play as and against. Hazards don't matter because the damage is pretty worthless compared to 50% (and you also heal up after the hazard damage so a lot of breakers that could hit for like, 45% and break through using the chip from stealth rocks can't). Physical attackers are literally meme picks imo because of the loop of going between a Strength Sap mon like Sinistcha and another physically bulky recover mon like Pecha or Mandibuzz invalidates quite literally anything they do, and special attackers while still pretty strong also get powercrept by the fact you can run very bulky AV mons like Milo that also recover 50% of their HP on switch-in. And the only way to beat this recovery spam (or rather, stalemate it tbh) is, you guessed it- your own recovery spam, even if it's just something like Roost Roaring Moon.
EDIT: One thing to add on, I think the Spikes restrict actually also made this problem exponentially worse, because at least Spikes damage being as large is it was, was one of the few ways to genuinely pressure these types of teams. But now that it's gone and PP being such a vital resource (not to mention the turns needed to setup 3 layers of spikes), recovery spam is able to run rampant with basically no real counter if you build to account for a few key setup threats like Tera Poison Sinistcha.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9trademarked-2666788806-in314v8jp9j7nh6xgv4qb9075m2se5xpw
So, granted, this is Stall vs Stall (and a Spite Corviknight at that), notoriously boring and slow matchups HOWEVER- attempts at progress CAN be made. Slow, incremental wins such as predicting your opponent to go Ditto and killing it. PP stalling out your opponent's hazard removal, etc. etc.
However, as it stands with the metagame right now, and this even goes for Stall vs Offense, these wins just DO NOT MATTER. It does not matter that you took out a big piece of your opponent's defensive core, because frankly, games can continuously with these types of recovery spam teams just degenerate every single time into swapping between your recovery mons and either slowly wearing your opponent down through hazard damage/status/rocky helmet, or worse, PP stalling them. And hazards literally do not matter because of either boots spam, or the fact you STILL GET A NOTICEABLE HEAL even if your opponent managed to put up Stealth Rocks AND 3 layers of spikes!
And this happens. Every. Single. Game. It is the exact same degenerate strategy and, barring you have proper failsafes to beat certain setup mons (that are kinda cheese otherwise imo), wins almost every game or resolves in a stalemate because the optimal move to do every single time is swap to just another fat mon that gets a free 50% of their HP on switch-in or else you're wasting PP, or just... not healing when it's optimal to heal. Offense while strong really still can't handle a well-built team from my experience playing ladder.
It's a very degenerate gameplay loop and imo is the best strategy bar none to use to win, and the only reason I do not see it on ladder much is because, yeah, a lot of games boil down to just switch spamming and that's boring as bricks to both play as and against. Hazards don't matter because the damage is pretty worthless compared to 50% (and you also heal up after the hazard damage so a lot of breakers that could hit for like, 45% and break through using the chip from stealth rocks can't). Physical attackers are literally meme picks imo because of the loop of going between a Strength Sap mon like Sinistcha and another physically bulky recover mon like Pecha or Mandibuzz invalidates quite literally anything they do, and special attackers while still pretty strong also get powercrept by the fact you can run very bulky AV mons like Milo that also recover 50% of their HP on switch-in. And the only way to beat this recovery spam (or rather, stalemate it tbh) is, you guessed it- your own recovery spam, even if it's just something like Roost Roaring Moon.
EDIT: One thing to add on, I think the Spikes restrict actually also made this problem exponentially worse, because at least Spikes damage being as large is it was, was one of the few ways to genuinely pressure these types of teams. But now that it's gone and PP being such a vital resource (not to mention the turns needed to setup 3 layers of spikes), recovery spam is able to run rampant with basically no real counter if you build to account for a few key setup threats like Tera Poison Sinistcha.
I think there do exist good enough breakers with good utility such as gfire, lando, tusk and valiant among many others that can very easily punish all heal teams.
Although yes they can be incredibly annoying to play against and not fun at all, and the spikes restriction has made it much easier for them to recover from a bad position.
Still, further banning more TMs is really not the solution imo.
Although yes they can be incredibly annoying to play against and not fun at all, and the spikes restriction has made it much easier for them to recover from a bad position.
Still, further banning more TMs is really not the solution imo.
Super SUPER agree. While it is possible to eventually make progress, like you said, its super fucking slow. I've played against multiple stall matchups today and its always the same strategy: Special attacker in? Go blissey. Physical attacker in? Go IDef sini. Rinse and repeat over and over and over. Especially against the guy in the replay. I think you're right on the spikes nerf part for sure. Hazards, while annoying, at least have lots of reasonable counterplay and infact led to there being more more sets for mons than now (Defog corv even if rare and the occassional Noivern). In my opinion i think *Screens* are a problem as well. They are way too splashable on a team and make the breaking process even slower if the team is intentionally super fat.
The aforementioned flowchart of infinite swapping is made worse by Blissey and Corv running their respective screen moves. Do I think screens should be totally banned? Ehh I'm unsure as of yet but they should at the very least be looked at. (Like making it so you cant have Light Screen + Reflect as trademarks maybe?) Stall/Semi-stall is way too free right now with the current meta and this could be alleviated by restricting recovery moves to 2 and looking at restricting/unrestricting certain TMs and hell maybe a few mons. The meta is fun but more variety is definitely needed along with recovery being nerfed. Going from match to match and the matchup is stall after stall or even fearing it's going to be stall is getting very grating. I still think this OM is fun and I hope it comes back sooner rather than later but these few problems should def be at the very least looked at.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9trademarked-2666849105-dboelb1cinuom5862bgdhcvlhscpnr0pw
I am not sure if this replay proves my point or just shows gouging fire is that broken(it is).
Heres the team with which I got rank 1 again.
:https://pokepast.es/508f01f97bc09cb0
Started out as a fun gimmick to beat sinistcha with landorus and was a bit lackluster until I brought in gfire.
I completely agree on the spikes ban. As said in a previous post, I think the meta was in a somewhat good place before the latest ban slate. It wasn't perfect, but atleast it was fun. As you put it, spikes gave you more options to resolve the infinite recovery recycling that has now become so dominant.
Banning spikes was a mistaken and I believe it will only cascade into further bans. Here is my 2cents/prediction for the future of the metagame.
Without spikes to force progress recovery cycling becomes too strong. If we just restrict recovery then defensive counterplay to wallbreakers will become increasingly more difficult. Wallbreakers such as Revavroom, Meow, Darkrai, Gouging Fire, Landorus-I etc will run rampant without recovery and without spikes they are free to run LO/CB over HDB. When they're freed up to run choice items disable will become more popular, so disable will have to be looked. If we ban these wallbreakers then we're likely going to have to look at banning screens as well.
Banning spikes was a mistake in the first place. Not only was it done counteractively to the results of the survey, but it's made the metagame painfully boring, repetitive and slow.
Like, looking at the replay above by ljsdnlsdln
Both teams run atleast two mons with recovery TMs. If it wasn't for the strength of ljsdnlsdln 's team - and it is a very, very strong team - being able to break through the match could've easily lasted 100-200 turns.
And that's how most of the games in trademarked go right now. So many matches go on for 50, 100 or 200+ turns and eventually end in a tie. Like yeah, it's definitely possible to break through, but it will forever to do so. What's even the point of playing if games last an hour and half of the time end in a draw. If one player refuses the tie then the match can easily go on for hundreds of turns of just infinitely switching.
Spikes should be unbanned and recovery moves should be restricted to 1 per team. Reverse all of the decisions, bar the Ingrain unban. The council should be expanded as well, as promised but not delivered on.
EDIT: Side note Lavender Vice's team is painful to play against but very creative. Pecharunt, Sp.def Corviknight and Quaq all became more popular (notice how ljsdnlsdln uses Lavender's Sinistcha & Corviknight set). ljsdnlsdln team is also very cool and super strong.
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Tell us the solution then, the breakers you mentioned other than Gouging fire do not really punish heal spam at all let alone punishing them easily, something I've seen a lot of ppl here just neglect to mention is that when we talk about heal spam we aren't just talking about a team with 6 bulky mons with healing move TMs, that's a garbage team that can be easily overpowered, We talk about those teams that compliment heal spam mons ( :pecharunt: :toxapex: etc) with other bulky staples and TMs like Screens :corviknight: and that demon strength sap :sinistcha: along with other stuff like protect disable to effectively block choice mons from ever making any progress,
Progress into these teams is not just slow it's downright stale to an unhealthy degree, Also I see this a lot but spamming knock off is not some end all be all answer to these teams, first off noone is dumb enough to have atleast one mon that doesn't care bout getting knocked (it's not like it's a team of 6 grounded mons running boots) second, what does that achieve when half their mons entirely heal off all hazard dmg and then some with one switch in? And that's assuming you manage to get up all layers and rocks in the first place, it's just a nonsensical argument, they are not knock weak, they literally don't care unless you are constantly hitting them for half their hp on switch which is not happening most of the time.
Now talking bout your second paragraph, you admit that they are really incredibly annoying to fight and the spikes restriction bolstered them even further, but then you just say "i don't think banning more TMs is the solution" then what's the solution in your opinion? And just to be clear I don't want them banned either I think they are really significant in handling some of the nuclear strong offensive mons in the meta, I just want them restricted to one per team so we don't have teams where 3 mons just have regenerator on steroids.
Also I watched your replay and ngl that's one sick team.
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I thought the discussion was around restricting recovery moves, which is why i opposed it. I do think that 2 recovery/regen mons should be allowed but also spikes, toxic, endure, taunt and dd/tw/agility should be unrestricted. Right now even offensive mons use recovery because theres no faster mons to punish them. This means less boosting mons resulting in healspam which in theory should struggle against +1 lo/band/specs attacks. Giving offensive mons tools to check other offensive mons will automatically reduce non defensive mons using healing TMS, and the resulting increase in boosted attackers should punish healspam more.
Have continued to climb, hit 1628 on my main with my alt at 1538.
This isn't a necessary post, but I wanted to show off improvements I have made to the team I posted that have improved its bad matchups considerably. It's probably the final version of the team, and I'm quite happy with how it has shaped up in response to learning more about meta threats. Since this is more of an update post, it's going to have less flair put into it than my regular team sharing posts.
https://pokepast.es/6cdd9c7bbda11a57
Pecharunt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: recover
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Spite
Quaquaval @ Assault Vest
Ability: roost
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Flip Turn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: lightscreen
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog
Ting-Lu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: stealthrock
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 26 Spe
- Spikes
- Rest
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
Sinistcha
Ability: strengthsap
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Imprison
For the changes, mainly just some swapping of Teras to more better handle bad matchups, such as Quaq becoming Tera Dark for Stored Power users. Sin being Tera Water is a big one, as Ceruledge and Gouging can be problems for the team due to the lack of a physdef fire resist. Exact same reason why Sin is itemless now too, the Ceruledge matchup was too spotty and Sin really doesn't need an item (having a full heal on switch-in makes you really not give a shit about hazard damage), and having lowered damage taken from Bulk Up Tusk's knock is great too. Lastly I don't know how I didn't realize Quaq learns Flip Turn, substantially better chip damage from it and you don't get cheesed by Imprison Uturn mons.
As for the biggest changes, Pech has lost Curse for Spite because it really just isn't needed and punishing Corvis wanting to Roost > Defog into you HARD is insanely valuable with how the team wants to chip down the opponent slowly.
But my favorite change is Imprison Sin. So, going to be real, setup IDef Sinistcha (Tera Poison though near guaranteeing it) 6-0s the team and I was for a while considering it just a dead matchup that I live with. But, browsing Sin's movepool, I noticed it has mprison. With Imprison Sinistcha you just COMPLETELY fuck over opposing Sinistchas (and Dittos), which can what seems to be many times be their only way to deal with your own teacup setting up leading to a lot of free wins. It's a very strong option, and I highly recommend people try the tech out.
Lastly to respond to this, while Gouging is strong, Tera Water Sin (which is NOT uncommon) 6-0s this team, and a lot of the way you deal with it is catching it by surprise on the switch-in with Weather Ball Lando (which I don't care much for strategies like this, as they only really work once and then the surprise factor is gone). It's awesome tech for sure though, especially to hit non tera'd Sins and Reflect Corvis/IDef Skarms that would normally be an opponent's wall for Lando.
This isn't a necessary post, but I wanted to show off improvements I have made to the team I posted that have improved its bad matchups considerably. It's probably the final version of the team, and I'm quite happy with how it has shaped up in response to learning more about meta threats. Since this is more of an update post, it's going to have less flair put into it than my regular team sharing posts.
https://pokepast.es/6cdd9c7bbda11a57
Pecharunt @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: recover
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Parting Shot
- Toxic
- Spite
Quaquaval @ Assault Vest
Ability: roost
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Flip Turn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: lightscreen
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog
Ting-Lu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: stealthrock
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 26 Spe
- Spikes
- Rest
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform
Sinistcha
Ability: strengthsap
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Matcha Gotcha
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Imprison
For the changes, mainly just some swapping of Teras to more better handle bad matchups, such as Quaq becoming Tera Dark for Stored Power users. Sin being Tera Water is a big one, as Ceruledge and Gouging can be problems for the team due to the lack of a physdef fire resist. Exact same reason why Sin is itemless now too, the Ceruledge matchup was too spotty and Sin really doesn't need an item (having a full heal on switch-in makes you really not give a shit about hazard damage), and having lowered damage taken from Bulk Up Tusk's knock is great too. Lastly I don't know how I didn't realize Quaq learns Flip Turn, substantially better chip damage from it and you don't get cheesed by Imprison Uturn mons.
As for the biggest changes, Pech has lost Curse for Spite because it really just isn't needed and punishing Corvis wanting to Roost > Defog into you HARD is insanely valuable with how the team wants to chip down the opponent slowly.
But my favorite change is Imprison Sin. So, going to be real, setup IDef Sinistcha (Tera Poison though near guaranteeing it) 6-0s the team and I was for a while considering it just a dead matchup that I live with. But, browsing Sin's movepool, I noticed it has mprison. With Imprison Sinistcha you just COMPLETELY fuck over opposing Sinistchas (and Dittos), which can what seems to be many times be their only way to deal with your own teacup setting up leading to a lot of free wins. It's a very strong option, and I highly recommend people try the tech out.
Lastly to respond to this, while Gouging is strong, Tera Water Sin (which is NOT uncommon) 6-0s this team, and a lot of the way you deal with it is catching it by surprise on the switch-in with Weather Ball Lando (which I don't care much for strategies like this, as they only really work once and then the surprise factor is gone). It's awesome tech for sure though, especially to hit non tera'd Sins and Reflect Corvis/IDef Skarms that would normally be an opponent's wall for Lando.
The Spikes restriction was absolutely needed. Just because healspam is broken right now does not mean that we should suddenly allow another degenerate playstyle that just spams switching with little risk. I really do not understand how restricting healing TMs to just 1 or 2 per team would suddenly cause them to become destroyed by offense, since in my opinion, you don't even need healing moves at all to succeed.
https://pokepast.es/b8303ef850a919a6
This is the team I've been laddering with since I achieved suspect requirements, and, besides Alomomola, I've never felt the need to somehow add on another defensive wall with recovery. In fact, I entirely replaced Milotic with Zapdos because Milotic is completely helpless into mixed Iron Valiant and Charge teams, even if it does offer burns and phazing.
I don't see any issue with adding more restrictions on TMs and banning even more Pokemon. Add a limit to healing moves, ban Revavroom, and ban Sinistcha.
https://pokepast.es/b8303ef850a919a6
This is the team I've been laddering with since I achieved suspect requirements, and, besides Alomomola, I've never felt the need to somehow add on another defensive wall with recovery. In fact, I entirely replaced Milotic with Zapdos because Milotic is completely helpless into mixed Iron Valiant and Charge teams, even if it does offer burns and phazing.
I don't see any issue with adding more restrictions on TMs and banning even more Pokemon. Add a limit to healing moves, ban Revavroom, and ban Sinistcha.