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Tell us the solution then, the breakers you mentioned other than Gouging fire do not really punish heal spam at all let alone punishing them easily, something I've seen a lot of ppl here just neglect to mention is that when we talk about heal spam we aren't just talking about a team with 6 bulky mons with healing move TMs, that's a garbage team that can be easily overpowered, We talk about those teams that compliment heal spam mons ( :pecharunt::toxapex: etc) with other bulky staples and TMs like Screens :corviknight: and that demon strength sap :sinistcha: along with other stuff like protect disable to effectively block choice mons from ever making any progress,
Progress into these teams is not just slow it's downright stale to an unhealthy degree, Also I see this a lot but spamming knock off is not some end all be all answer to these teams, first off noone is dumb enough to have atleast one mon that doesn't care bout getting knocked (it's not like it's a team of 6 grounded mons running boots) second, what does that achieve when half their mons entirely heal off all hazard dmg and then some with one switch in? And that's assuming you manage to get up all layers and rocks in the first place, it's just a nonsensical argument, they are not knock weak, they literally don't care unless you are constantly hitting them for half their hp on switch which is not happening most of the time.
Now talking bout your second paragraph, you admit that they are really incredibly annoying to fight and the spikes restriction bolstered them even further, but then you just say "i don't think banning more TMs is the solution" then what's the solution in your opinion? And just to be clear I don't want them banned either I think they are really significant in handling some of the nuclear strong offensive mons in the meta, I just want them restricted to one per team so we don't have teams where 3 mons just have regenerator on steroids.
Also I watched your replay and ngl that's one sick team.
I think it also has to be said, knock with WHO? IVal is already strapped for moveslots as is, are you really gonna burn a moveslot for Knock? Tusk is literally hard walled and one shot by Sin (who also does not in the slightest care about being knocked since it full heals every time it switches in, so long as you keep it above 12% it does not give a shit about hazards), Oger is alright I suppose but requires either a sun team, or using Woger which, once again, walled by the teacup. Meow is alright, still walled by Sinistcha + another physdef recovery mon because Strength Sap. Mandibuzz is probably one of the few reliable defensive knockers because it can threaten the majority of common knock switch-ins like Sin with Toxic, but then... it's also walled by Pecha even with SE moves (and being stealth rock weak isn't great).
From my playing it really doesn't feel like there are as many supposed options to handle recovery spam as are being presented, (and in part because the fact tera is legal makes bad defensive matchups often just not exist anymore). The answer often seems to be setup mons which are VERY abusable by any well-built team (and if not played VERY carefully against a team with Ditto can often just be you reverse sweeping yourself by trying to break through a recovery spam core), or burning your tera on a breaker and hoping it's enough to kill the wall (which with once again, I know I keep reiterating this, how strong Strength Sap + Light Screen is, good luck with that).
I ventured this 2 weeks ago while the survey was on-going:
I think the Spikes restriction was wise. Not touching healing TMs at the same time is causing issues.
A lot of OMs with malleable abilities restrict Regenerator because it degenerates the meta into switch stall. It’s never fun to play against or with.
It’s a bit different with TMs since it’s not strictly just Regenerator. It effectively is the same problem, yet it ventures into complex ban territory, but if other metas can make a Regenerator > 2 Clause rule, the precident exists. I don’t see why Trademark couldn’t make a 2 Healing Ability rule. Thoughts KaenSoul ?
If the mods go for it, restricting more than two of these in the ability slot should work fine:
Milk Drink
Moonlight
Morning Sun
Pain Split
Recover
Regenerator
Rest
Roost
Shore Up
Slack Off
Soft Boiled
Strength Sap
Synthesis
Alternatively, you could exclude Regenerator and limit it to one healing TM per team, but I feel like this is riskier because you could still have a core like Alomomola, Glowking and then a random third with the TM, and it still would feel icky.
I think the Spikes ban was wise. Not touching healing TMs at the same time is causing issues.
A lot of OMs with malleable abilities restrict Regenerator, because it degenerates the meta into switch stall. It’s never fun to play against or with.
It’s a bit different with TMs since it’s not strictly just Regenerator, but it effectively is, so it ventures into complex ban territory, but if other metas can make a Regenerator > 2 Clause rule, the precident exists. I don’t see why Trademark couldn’t make a 2 Healing Ability rule. Thoughts KaenSoul ?
If the mods go for it, restricting more than two of these in the ability slot should work fine:
Soft Boiled, Slack Off, Milk Drink, might be a couple others but ik those are still in the game rn. Rest prob doesn't need to be restricted I'd imagine since it's kinda bad?
Soft Boiled, Slack Off, Milk Drink, might be a couple others but ik those are still in the game rn. Rest prob doesn't need to be restricted I'd imagine since it's kinda bad?
I agree Rest is debatable because it isn’t as spammable as the others, but for the sake of making a consistent rule, it should probably be included in a hypothetical restriction.
Lastly to respond to this, while Gouging is strong, Tera Water Sin (which is NOT uncommon) 6-0s this team, and a lot of the way you deal with it is catching it by surprise on the switch-in with Weather Ball Lando (which I don't care much for strategies like this, as they only really work once and then the surprise factor is gone). It's awesome tech for sure though, especially to hit non tera'd Sins and Reflect Corvis/IDef Skarms that would normally be an opponent's wall for Lando.
I agree, which is why I had to make aggressive predicts else I was cooked. Thank god I won the 50/50s. Honestly a very well built team.
Weather Ball Lando isn’t really a one-time surprise tech, though. The surprise factor is nice, but even after being revealed it is pretty decent coverage. Besides the flying steels, it also deals with grass types and other phys bulky mons such as opposing lando and bulkup tusk (max hp takes 55 minimum from 200 spA). I dont think theres a lot of mons that can safely switchin w/o tera besides maybe mola, but it cant realy stay in.
Regardless I still think Gfire is borderline. Having to use tera on the premier phys def switchin in the tier to check it is an indication of that. Being this strong with its incredible bulk and recovering any chip while being immune to burn definitely pushes it over the edge imo.
I thought the discussion was around restricting recovery moves, which is why i opposed it. I do think that 2 recovery/regen mons should be allowed but also spikes, toxic, endure, taunt and dd/tw/agility should be unrestricted. Right now even offensive mons use recovery because theres no faster mons to punish them. This means less boosting mons resulting in healspam which in theory should struggle against +1 lo/band/specs attacks. Giving offensive mons tools to check other offensive mons will automatically reduce non defensive mons using healing TMS, and the resulting increase in boosted attackers should punish healspam more.
I agree with some of these unrestrictions but u restricting Toxic is a hell no from me. Yea, theres a lessened distribution pool for it now but having to gamble each time something that does get it switches in is Not fun in the slightest. While yes you'd be better off running a recovery move if the mon with Toxic gets it that doesn't mean it isn't worth running ever. Toxic before the distribution slash was probably the best move in the game now imagine if it was automatic. Sure it being a surprise would only last the first time you encounter it but who wants to gamble on a potential teammate crippling play because they got the set wrong? If Twave and Wisp are restricted then so should Toxic imo.
This very well might be a skill issue but I'm starting to fear that Milotic is also starting to be a problem with the current meta with recovery/screens spam. Truthfully I might just be tilted LOL but there is so little counterplay to screens + AV Milo since, well, screens are up so Milo can stick around for longer and fish for a scald burn or even an Ice Beam if your Physical breaker is Grass or Ground and if you have a Special attacker running Psyshock then mirror coat will just send your ass flying off into the stratosphere since you'll tend to do ~50% depending on the mon. There may be a few people going, "Just knock it!" and to that I say, with what? There are so few good knock users in the meta and on top of that WHY would they let their Milo get knocked off so willingly? If you reveal it early either by accident or to suppress another threat then you'll be stuck in a game of predicting the switch on the Milo so you can get the knock/shock off and it is so frustrating. I think this mon exaccerbates the very apparent problem with heal spam and screenheal teams and that's that its just too time consuming with so little actual options to actually deal with these super fat mons you encounter. Do I think Milo should be banned yet? Idk. If Sini goes then I'm not opposed to Milo going either, but the point stands that, either I'm missing something (probably) or that this is indicative of another issue (also probably).
I have been running a lot of ingrain Trevenant, which can skill swap the opponent to trap them on the field even after you switch out. I have been trying to decide whether it is banworthy. I feel like there is something inherently uncompetitive about being able to instantly win the game if the opponent ever misplays against Trevenant. It feels like a cross between arena trap and baton pass, but really unreliable.
There is some amount of counterplay with pivoting moves generally allowing you to escape from being trapped, and the trademark limit preventing the activation of abilities skill-swapped onto opponents that just switched in. If the trademark limit of one activation per turn didn't exist, I think this strategy would be busted, but with the limit, there is incredibly easy counterplay.
The general gameplan is to try to skill swap ingrain onto the opponent, lower all their stats, set up hazards, and then sweep with Espathra.
There is very little priority in the metagame currently, which means that if you do manage to skill swap ingrain, the only things that you need to worry about are haze/heart swap/psych up as trademarks as they bypass substitute (and are essentially a loss on team preview).
Trevenant @ Focus Sash
Ability: ingrain
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Skill Swap
- Poltergeist
- Toxic
- Protect
The main star of my team, it skill swaps ingrain onto the opponent, trapping them on the field. Protect allows it to scout, and the other moves and attack investment allow it to be less passive against constant switching. It might be worthwhile giving Trevenant some extra bulk, as this set heavily relies on focus sash to live hits.
Dondozo @ Clear Amulet
Ability: soak
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Wave Crash
Soak allows you to trap ghost types that don't immediately switch after being ingrained, and clear amulet blocks parting shot. The issue with this set is that if the opponent has parting shot, you can't switch out, to set up with the rest of your team, and Dondozo probably can't sweep the entire enemy team. H-Samurott with taunt might be better in this slot.
Sandy Shocks @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: eerieimpulse
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
Hazards + Eerie Impulse to lower SpA of trapped special attackers. The lack of recovery is really felt, and you have a hard time switching into powerful special attackers like Darkrai over and over.
Mandibuzz @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: featherdance
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Roost
- Defog
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Hazard control + answer to physical attackers. There is a lot of antisynergy with knock off and poltergeist, and you can easily ruin your game by knocking off a mon like pecharunt, allowing it to freely switch in on trevenant forever.
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 124 HP / 132 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power
- Substitute
Setup sweeper of choice. Sub helps against Ditto, but haze and heart swap still destroys it. I tried a number of options in this slot, and I think Espathra is the most reliable.
Uxie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: imprison
EVs: 252 HP / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
Tera Type: Ground
Calm Nature
- Trick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
Uxie can imprison u-turn and knock off on trapped opponents, and then trick it a scarf to prevent those moves from being used after switching out Uxie. This means that even mons like Corv with u-turn aren't safe if they are successfully ingrained, and Espathra doesn't need to worry about losing its leftovers.
With this team I managed to climb to a rating of 1418. I had some decent winstreaks, but I think the team is incredibly gimmicky, and generally pretty bad. However, even in most of the games I lost, had I predicted better, I had opportunities to instantly win that I missed. I think someone better than me could reach a decent elo with ingrain skill swap, I think it is worthwhile keeping an eye on it, and questioning whether it adds anything of value to the metagame.
:toxic-orb::gliscor::toxic-orb:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 29 Spe
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Spikes
- Protect
Regular Gliscor is still strong in this tier. With the ability limitation on Spikes, there are few good spikers now. On stall, your options are Gliscor, Clodsire, and Skarmory. Ting-Lu can theoretically work on some wish-based stalls (i.e. paired with Alomomola), and there are niche/underexplored options like Ogerpon-Teal and Deoxys-Defense. Gliscor to me stands out because it has access to Knock Off and Toxic while being a great knock/status absorber with amazing typing, resilient into hazard stack, and able to heal reliably without using up a healing TM. Its bulk still holds up in the tier, and scouting choice-locked opponents with Protect while burning an extra PP is really nice. Tera Water is basic, the spread is standard SpDef (it should be Careful nature, oops!), and it's a reliable piece on stall.
:heavy-duty-boots::blissey::heavy-duty-boots:
Blissey @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Soft-Boiled
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Calm Mind
Blissey is pretty much mandatory on stall, especially with access to Soft-Boiled. The set is extremely standard, with Tera Dark to take on Psyshock and Stored Power so Umbreon doesn't have to every game.
Milotic is amazing in this tier on all sorts of builds. While usually sporting Assault Vest, stall prefers Heavy-Duty boots so it doesn't risk fainting before getting Recover off, since hazards hit before the ability activates. 8 Speed allows it to outspeed Adamant/Jolly base 50 Pokemon (e.g. Kingambit, Iron Hands, Ursaluna). I don't think I've had to tera Milotic before, so Fairy is flexible but seems pretty nice into certain teams. The moves and ability are standard; Scald burns are very difficult to deal with for the opponent, and being able to phase on a stall team without Unaware or Haze is very appreciated.
:leftovers::corviknight::leftovers:
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Reflect
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- Defog
- Roost
Reflect Corviknight is unbelievably amazing in the meta, and there's very little reason for most teams to leave it behind. Reflect allows for the rest of the team to handle threatening physical attackers much more comfortably. Most non-stall sets run Rocky Helmet, but the longevity that Leftovers provides is great, especially when running Brave Bird. Tera Dragon is great into Ogerpon-Wellspring and Cinderace among other potent Water and Fire types. Defog is necessary even with Boots spam so you don't get heavily punished for a misplay into Knock Off, you can last longer with Gliscor and Corviknight into Stealth Rock, and some positions where another Pokemon needs to take Knock Off isn't as debilitating.
Umbreon is pretty great! Access to Moonlight allows it to complete the triple regen core and fix Umbreon's normal issue of not having a good ability in normal play. Its insanely good bulk is difficult for teams to overcome. WishTect is really good; it keeps Corviknight, Gliscor, and Pecharunt healthy in longer games, it can stall moves out more easily, and it even pairs well with the recovery move Pokemon. For example, Milotic can come in at 10%, heal back up to 60%, take a strong attack and go back down to 20%, heal back up to 70% from Wish, take the attack again and be at 30%, get off Flip Turn to chip the opponent, go back into Umbreon who will heal up again, and repeat the cycle. It's very difficult to break this team down, and Wish Umbreon is a major part of that. Foul Play does a lot of damage due to being STAB and punishes physical setup sweepers. Keeping Toxic in SV is a rarity that Umbreon appreciates to put the opposing Pokemon on a timer. The Dark typing works really well to limit strong Dark types while granting an immunity to Psyshock and Stored Power. Tera Poison flips the Fighting and Fairy weakness while guaranteeing Toxic hits on crucial turns.
Spite Pecharunt is so good. On the surface level, it seems like double Pressure since it removes 4 PP instead of 2, but it's so much more if you know how to use it. In cases where both you and your opponent switch out, if your Pokemon is faster, Pecharunt's Spite will activate before they switch out. Let's take opposing Corviknight, for example. If you Knock Off spam with Gliscor into Corviknight or whittle it down enough with Stealth Rock to the point where it clicks Roost, you can guarantee removing Roost PP by hard switching out into Pecharunt the next turn, and all of a sudden Corviknight has only 3 Roost PP after clicking the move once. Also, because Pokemon can't use their move if Spite removes all their PP that turn, pretty much any Pokemon with a strong 8 PP move is in danger. Bulk Up Cinderace in Sun is very threatening for any stall, but if you can get Cinderace down to 4 PP with Pyro Ball, just hard switch in Pecharunt safely. Cinderace won't be able to attack that turn due to having 0 PP when it's supposed to attack, then it's rendered pretty useless the rest of the game. The hard-switch method is not always easy, though, as the opponent often outspeeds and a double switch means Spite will do nothing. Thunder Wave Blissey can somewhat help out with this, but an opponent with familiarity of the mechanic can play around it fairly well. Still, it forces the opponent to play awkwardly and make it more difficult for them to exploit constant switching with your regen core. Otherwise, Pecharunt is great as a Toxic Spikes absorber, spinblocker, slow pivot, poison spreader, and physically defensive juggernaut.
This team has almost everything stall can dream of. Strong hazard setters, strong knock absorbers, good removal, amazing bulk both physically and specially, triple regen on steroids, wish passing, five status spreaders (three toxic, one burn, one paralysis), a knocker, two pivot moves, strong recovery on every Pokemon, Boots spam, Toxic Spikes absorber, and so on. It's really only missing Unaware, but I don't believe the Unaware users are that viable in this tier. I'm sure someone can optimize this team better, as I was running the wrong nature on Gliscor and didn't take too long to throw this together. Regardless, I believe this team can win in pretty much every game barring hax or bad play.
Recovery move spam is unhealthy and uncompetitive for the metagame. There needs to be a complex ban so that at most two 50% healing moves are allowed on a team. I don't know exactly what this would look like, as two 50% healing abilities plus a Regenerator user would still be bad, but allowing only one 50% healing move would encourage more Regenerator users and diminish creativity. What keeps Regenerator spam playable in normal tiers is that max hazards will do 37.5% damage to the Pokemon, which outpaces the 33.3% that Regenerator heals. Hazards do less than the recovery move, and the game can get to the point where you can switch infinitely between healers and stay at full health, especially if the recovery user plays well and keeps boots on their Pokemon. This is not even mentioning that Regenerator Pokemon are not that great outside of their ability, and allowing defensive Pokemon that do not rely on their ability like Blissey and Milotic to have buffed Regenerator is a no-brainer in the teambuilder. I believe restricting recovery moves entirely would be the wrong approach, but action needs to take place.
breaker and speed control, forces an absurd amount of switches and OHKOs a large portion of the meta, tera ice for the rare freeze-dry 2HKO on milotic (95% chance), tera ground might be better
bulky pivot and status spreader, takes most knock offs and earthquakes with ease. tera ghost for bulk up lando-t and tusk
zacian is strong but gets worn down easily and the abundance of corviknight (often with tusk or lando) makes agressive plays and doubles necessary, hence tusk and the pivots
one of the better tiers i've invested my time into. wanted to make this post going over what i thought of the metagame but got delayed due to personal issues + other stuff on smog (hpl).
first i want to go on how this metagame functions.
the meta is pretty balanced, but favors fatter structures (semistall, hard stall). this is because recovery moves have no limit, so essentially you can have many fat mons that get instant regenerator hp (except even more). obviously, many trademarks can also enable offensive users in ways you wouldn't expect (scary face+kyurem). scary face helps utilize kyurem's high spa, paired with choice specs, and lets it come in on opposing offensive threats it normally couldnt come in on (iron valiant, opposing kyurem, revavroom). there's also shift gear which lets revavroom become a real offensive threat as its speed no longer sucks, calm mind for darkrai to get a choice specs esq boost on switchin, and more. however, they all have checks and counters that make stall much better.
now, what makes stall so dominant? as previously mentioned its the recovery moves. cycling in and out and at a higher rate than the 33% from regen makes it insanely splashable and, with many defensive pokemon that don't care about their standard abilities as they don't benefit them (corviknight, pecharunt, sinistcha), its harder to combat all of them without aggressive hard switches etc which can easily be punished. all in all, the wallbreakers can't really wallbreak right now. with the recent suspect, people were arguing on how zacian was broken and it really sounded to me that they didnt know how to beat it with stall. loading the same old boring that beats standard teams but struggles into a genuine wallbreaker that puts them in their place. in my eyes, people feared not being able to stall!
the fix? right now, the meta is very enjoyable personally, the gimmick is cool and you see a wide diversity of mons you normally wouldnt see in standard play. the council should focus on diversifying team structures and resolve the meta from being fat spam. the next step in my opinion is unbanning more ubers that can be handled, but carefully in a way where fat isnt on every team ever. other ubers should see play.
ok now that i yapped a lot im gonna yap more about individual mons and what i think of each
:darkrai: very scary, koff hits milo for 53, and +1 black glasses dark pulse hits a lot. sludge bomb + tera poison hits fairies unexpectedly. :corviknight: probably the guy for this tier, can also run special defense which isnt used as much :quaquaval: overrated, role compression is sweet but he has mid bulk ngl :pecharunt: good, underrated :kyurem: overrated, not that strong :raikou: underrated, +1 from cm + specs destroys defensive cores, while running heal spam stall i had to run tera dragon corv and lead with it and burn tera :revavroom: good, but not broken. can't break past phys def corv :slither wing: very good, not many switchins to a +1 band cc, does a lot to phys def corv. can also catch corv off guard losing flying type via roost :great tusk: alright but not imprssive :zapdos: good light screen user :ogerpon-wellspring: focus energy rain ivy cudgel does wonders. thuds into sinistcha though :regigigas: underrated but not that good :milotic: perfectly rated :ting lu: no recovery is bad, relies on lefties. rest is bad too. :regieleki: he's ok :ditto: very good guy who can remain consistently healthy by getting opposing trademarks
Some of you may remember that we tested Zacian and Zacian-C, with the latter being unbanned. At the time, though, we voted to ban a few elements, namely Revavroom, Tera Blast, and >1 major recovery move clause (50% and sap) being the subject topics. Do note that we've had a shakeup on our council roster list, with Ziek_Freek leaving us and Ellie<3 joining us instead.
:revavroom:
Revavroom seems like a very bad Pokemon at first glance; surely, Shift Gear isn't legal, right? Fortunately or unfortunately, the users are bad, so the move is legal, which makes Revavroom a very potent speed control breaker. However, it's very linear, its STABS are awful offensively, and it struggles to make progress without a Choice Band, and Tera Fire is necessary to break through Corviknight, the best and most splashable wall in the tier. That being said, a 1.5x Attack boost and a +2 Speed boost lets it run Adamant cost-free, which stacks in damage quickly. :tr01:
Tera Blast is one of those moves that you typically don't run, but the surge of the likes of Regieleki, Choice Band Dragapult, and surprisingly Zacian-C has made it clear the move is pretty difficult to answer. That being said, most Pokemon dont love using it, and those that do typically have other issues with them that make Tera Blast an irritating option to use.
:tr01::tr28::tr52: (:milotic::roaring-moon::sinistcha::gouging-fire:)
Healing moves in Trademarked are pretty popular and, while annoying, aren't particularly broken, until you consider the combination of Strength Sap + a 50% recovery move like Recover. We already restricted Wish last year, and while that move will not be freed anytime soon it is clear that major recovery moves are very strong. The thing is whether they are too strong, which is why we voted on it. Do note that 25% moves and Regenerator are not included here, only 50% and Strength Sap.
Tera Blast is banned, and Major recovery moves are limited to 1!
We'll be keeping an eye on the TM meta, and will aim for a samples + VR update very soon. Most of the VR should still be accurate, but some aspects may be slightly incorrect.
