Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[LESBIAN_GAMES]

Hiiiiii folks and folkstars. Well guys my knowledge isn't great, but why accuracy lowering moves aren't banned? Yeah, i get that there's more counterplay because you can switch out, but i found out to be as cheesy and uncompetitive as evasion strategies. I know some cheese is part of the meta (rest in piss, polteageist) but in most cases that i can remember (most copycat and shell smash stuff) you have more clear and optimal counterplay, like if you see a bs team with like freakin' espeon of all stuff that the world can offer, you know that is copycat. But the problem with accuracy lowering in my vision is that in most you can't possibly forsee the option on your opponent's moveset.

Well that's all, i really want to hear the reason of why they aren't banned! ! ! Sorry for the bad grammar, english is my fourth language

 

[biesbas]

lax made an interesting claim in his most recent upload that Gallade is the mathematically strongest physical attacker in gen 9 OU. Here is my fact check in case anyone is interested:

Strongest physical attacker in Gen 9 OU​

Winner:​

Alolan Golem with Galvanize using Explosion = 158% - 186.1%

But what if you don't want the user to instantly faint? (also ineligible now: metagross explosion = 107.3 - 126.4)

Next strongest:
Slaking at 1 hp using Flail = 130.3% - 153.5%

But what if you remove specific field, HP, or opponent-dependent conditions? (also ineligible now: Burned Ursaluna choice band facade = 123.5 - 145.6, Kingambit Fallen 5 Lash Out after a stat other than attack has been lowered the same turn = 128.8 - 151.6%, Kingambit Fallen 5 Assurance after being hit the same turn: 103.3 - 121.7%, Perrserker Steely Spirit Gyro Ball against fast opp (means opponent) = 111.6 - 131.4, Conkeldurr Iron Fist Focus Punch: 105.9 - 125, Haxorus with Rivalry against same gender using Outrage = 91.7 - 108.2)

Next strongest:
Mienshao with Reckless using High Jump Kick = 126.9% - 149.4%

But what if you want to avoid recoil damage? (also ineligible now: Alolan Golem Galvanize Double Edge = 76 - 89.5, Rampardos Head Smash = 100 - 117.9, Rillaboom Wood Hammer = 84.6 - 99.6)

Next strongest:
Maushold (also with Choice Band) using Population Bomb (10 hits) = 119.8% - 142.3%

But what if you want to avoid moves that have less than 81% accuracy? (also ineligible: Flapple hustle outrage = 89.1 - 105.2)

Next strongest:
Breloom Bullet Seed (5 hits) = 104.8% - 123.5% (4 hits = 83.8 - 98.8%)

But what if you don't want to take your chances with a multi hit move? (also ineligible: Cinccino Tail Slap = 84.2 - 99.2%)

Next strongest:
Slaking Giga Impact = 97.7% - 115.3%

But what if you want to move next turn? (also ineligible: Rhyperior Rock Wrecker = 88.3 - 104.1)

Next strongest:
Regidrago Outrage = 83.5% - 98.5%

But what if you want to be able to switch next turn? (also ineligible: Haxorus Outrage = 73.4 - 86.5)

Next strongest:
Ursaluna Flame Orb (no band) Facade = 82.7% - 97.3%

But but the flame orb only activates at the end of a turn so this should be considered setup.

Next strongest:
Maushold Wide Lens (no band) Population Bomb = 82.3% - 97.3%

But what if you want an absolute guarantee that the move doesn't miss?

Next strongest:
Medicham Close Combat = 81.6% - 96.2%

But what if you don't want any stats to drop?

Winner of the strongest no drawback no setup physical attack in gen 9 OU:
Gallade Sacred Sword = 73.4% - 86.5%

So in the end, annoyingly, Lax is kinda right... Or did I miss anything?

Click to collapse...

After calculating the strongest physical attacker in gen 9 OU I figured I'd do the same for special attackers.

Strongest no-setup special attacker in gen 9 OU​

Baseline Parameters
Attacks are calculated against max HP / max spdef (but not a positive spdef nature) Alomomola (Neutral-Tera type when applicable).
All attacks are calculated with + special attack nature, max sp. attack EVs, Choice Specs and matching tera.
I chose this Alomomola set because with these EV's, nature and AV it is exactly as bulky as a max defense bold Alo which I used in my previous post. So the percentages should be comparable with the previous post.

Click to collapse...

Absolute winner:
+1 (Download) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Normal Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 690-814 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but what if your opponent has a higher spdef stat than attack stat and you don't get the right download boost?



252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Tera Water Primarina Hydro Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 658-776 (123.2 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but what if you want to move next turn?
also ineligable: 252+ SpA Choice Specs [B]Adaptability [/B]Tera Normal [B]Porygon-Z Hyper Beam [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 520-612 (97.3 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy [B]Sylveon Hyper Beam [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 478-564 (89.5 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic [B]Necrozma Prismatic Laser [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 472-556 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO)



252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Tera Dragon Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 560-660 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but what if you don't want to rely on being at a certain hp %?
also ineligable: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire [B]Torkoal Eruption [/B](150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola in Sun: 504-594 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Tera Water [B]Primarina Hydro Pump [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 484-570 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire [B]Heatran Eruption [/B](150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 450-530 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Tera Electric Magnezone Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 466-550 (87.2 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

but what if you want a reasonably accurate move? also ineligable:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sheer Force Tera Flying [B]Braviary-Hisui Hurricane [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 384-454 (71.9 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Hoopa-Unbound Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 440-518 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but what if you want to hit your target this turn?



252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 420-496 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but what if you don't want to drop your stats? also ineligable:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire [B]Iron Moth Overheat [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 410-484 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola in Psychic Terrain: 402-474 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but if your opponent sets a different terrain after you, or the terrain expires, you lose all power. so what if you don't want to rely on terrain?

Winner:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 372-438 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Hiiiiii folks and folkstars. Well guys my knowledge isn't great, but why accuracy lowering moves aren't banned? Yeah, i get that there's more counterplay because you can switch out, but i found out to be as cheesy and uncompetitive as evasion strategies. I know some cheese is part of the meta (rest in piss, polteageist) but in most cases that i can remember (most copycat and shell smash stuff) you have more clear and optimal counterplay, like if you see a bs team with like freakin' espeon of all stuff that the world can offer, you know that is copycat. But the problem with accuracy lowering in my vision is that in most you can't possibly forsee the option on your opponent's moveset.

Well that's all, i really want to hear the reason of why they aren't banned! ! ! Sorry for the bad grammar, english is my fourth language


View attachment 856508

Click to collapse...

Statistically speaking, there's so few viable accuracy lowering sets that it doesn't really compare to the auto-win strats of stacking bright powder or flinch chance with multi-hit moves. Mud-slap turning scald into hydro pump accuracy (not a 1:1 comparison but you get it), doesn't really have the same level of 'auto win cheesy bullshit' or unfamiliarity as other evasion strats where someone is stacking +2 minimize or RNG heart of the cards moody stacking. Bright powder stacked teams would create numerous opportunities but mud-slap doesn't have the same effect.

Off principle, sure they should fall under the same 'no rng bullshit' ruling but there's so much rng bullshit that actually works consistently that something like mud-slap is trivial by comparison, even if you spammed the move to -6 accuracy its still a 20 bp move when its very likely the enemy just... lands the hit anyways and gets a kill, if you're expecting to RK kill it with a setup sweeper the odds are significantlly less favorable for the hit not to kill your sweeper on the same setup turn. If you dedicate a team around lowering accuracy via mud-slap, you'll likely just lose.

 

[LESBIAN_GAMES]

Statistically speaking, there's so few viable accuracy lowering sets that it doesn't really compare to the auto-win strats of stacking bright powder or flinch chance with multi-hit moves. Mud-slap turning scald into hydro pump accuracy (not a 1:1 comparison but you get it), doesn't really have the same level of 'auto win cheesy bullshit' or unfamiliarity as other evasion strats where someone is stacking +2 minimize or RNG heart of the cards moody stacking. Bright powder stacked teams would create numerous opportunities but mud-slap doesn't have the same effect.

Off principle, sure they should fall under the same 'no rng bullshit' ruling but there's so much rng bullshit that actually works consistently that something like mud-slap is trivial by comparison, even if you spammed the move to -6 accuracy its still a 20 bp move when its very likely the enemy just... lands the hit anyways and gets a kill, if you're expecting to RK kill it with a setup sweeper the odds are significantlly less favorable for the hit not to kill your sweeper on the same setup turn. If you dedicate a team around lowering accuracy via mud-slap, you'll likely just lose.

Click to collapse...

Yeah, makes sense. It just scared me seeing a jolteon using fucking mud-slap and substitute

 

[Mushfiq]

Hyper Beam Porygon-Z is viable. Honestly, really fun to use as a nuke button provided your team has ways to deal with setup sweepers that might utilize the free turn. Had a NP LO Porygon Z with Hyper Beam back in BDSP OU days to blow up Blisseys in one hit

After calculating the strongest physical attacker in gen 9 OU I figured I'd do the same for special attackers.

Strongest no-setup special attacker in gen 9 OU​

Absolute winner:
+1 (Download) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Normal Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 690-814 (129.2 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but what if your opponent has a higher spdef stat than attack stat and you don't get the right download boost?



252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Tera Water Primarina Hydro Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 658-776 (123.2 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but what if you want to move next turn?
also ineligable: 252+ SpA Choice Specs [B]Adaptability [/B]Tera Normal [B]Porygon-Z Hyper Beam [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 520-612 (97.3 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy [B]Sylveon Hyper Beam [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 478-564 (89.5 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic [B]Necrozma Prismatic Laser [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 472-556 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO)



252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Tera Dragon Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 560-660 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

but what if you don't want to rely on being at a certain hp %?
also ineligable: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire [B]Torkoal Eruption [/B](150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola in Sun: 504-594 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Torrent Tera Water [B]Primarina Hydro Pump [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 484-570 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire [B]Heatran Eruption [/B](150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 450-530 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Tera Electric Magnezone Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 466-550 (87.2 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

but what if you want a reasonably accurate move? also ineligable:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sheer Force Tera Flying [B]Braviary-Hisui Hurricane [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 384-454 (71.9 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Hoopa-Unbound Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 440-518 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but what if you want to hit your target this turn?



252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 420-496 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but what if you don't want to drop your stats? also ineligable:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire [B]Iron Moth Overheat [/B]vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola: 410-484 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tera Ghost Alomomola in Psychic Terrain: 402-474 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

but if your opponent sets a different terrain after you, or the terrain expires, you lose all power. so what if you don't want to rely on terrain?

Winner:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 372-438 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Click to collapse...

 

[sheepie]

Another thing that should be mentioned re accuracy lowering moves is how much bigger of a commitment they are, stuff likes kings rock and bright powder do take up a valuable item slot but nothing else and have a passive reward which can easily be game ending. Moves like minimise can do the same thing, but with the commitment of a move slot however you only have to click it once to reap the rewards. Mud slap and the like however, require you to click it a few times giving your opponent a few times to take advantage of that, and this proceeds repeats every time they switch out which means that it’s pretty easy to exploit long term if you don’t have the worst luck known to man. Sure it might rob one or two people but it’s nowhere near as consistently haxy as minimise clef or kings rock cloister or even freeze spamming kyurem

 

[RoyalDispenser]

It all starts like that before some doofus on ladders dedicates their time to figure something out. Took us long enough to ban sleep moves entirely piggybacking of people running stuff like Hypnosis Iron Valiant. All accuracy lowering moves should have been blanket banned

Click to collapse...

Banning sleep moves had nothing to do with anything beyond "we wanted to revise the sleep clause and chose now to do it" which resulted in a global sleep move ban instead of an enforced rule against spamming sleep moves which wasn't replicatable on cart (it could've been as a handshake 'i ff but say i win cause you broke rules' but this is not the location to really bring that up.)

If hypnosis was an isolated case (and it really wasn't cause hypnosis gengar and shit been a thing since gen 5) it would've just been banned itself.

...i do still miss sleep powder on niche setup mons like venomoth,.

___

Also I want to add, counterplay is a big reason why RNG sucks cause typically the counterplay is 'get lucky'... but the thing with mud-slap is that its a ground move so it actually does have counterplay cause it fails against anything with levitate/flying type/air balloon in the absolute worst case scenarios... running inner focus for king's rock is hilariously bad.

 

[Alternator]

RNG, in and of itself, is not a reason to ban something, because managing RNG is an actual skill. RNG whose only counterplay is "Get lucky" or "Bring specific counters" gets banned because there's no reasonable way to outplay Minimize spam.

Mud Slap is annoying when it works, but it's not strong enough to decide a game and doesn't require any unusual team building or in-battle choices to handle. You're spending a turn to do a little chip damage and hoping to get lucky, but the odds are against you. It's cheese, but there's enough cheese in Pokemon to make a gourmand blush.

Every time you carry Hydro Pump instead of Surf, or Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower, you're choosing the RNG option - and that's OK! That's the proof that RNG management is a skill, because you have to judge when it's worth the risk of a miss.

 

[LESBIAN_GAMES]

Banning sleep moves had nothing to do with anything beyond "we wanted to revise the sleep clause and chose now to do it" which resulted in a global sleep move ban instead of an enforced rule against spamming sleep moves which wasn't replicatable on cart (it could've been as a handshake 'i ff but say i win cause you broke rules' but this is not the location to really bring that up.)

If hypnosis was an isolated case (and it really wasn't cause hypnosis gengar and shit been a thing since gen 5) it would've just been banned itself.

...i do still miss sleep powder on niche setup mons like venomoth,.

___

Also I want to add, counterplay is a big reason why RNG sucks cause typically the counterplay is 'get lucky'... but the thing with mud-slap is that its a ground move so it actually does have counterplay cause it fails against anything with levitate/flying type/air balloon in the absolute worst case scenarios... running inner focus for king's rock is hilariously bad.

Click to collapse...

I miss sleep in general, yeah i guess it annoying but sleep added another level of depth to the game (and gen 9 has like 3 different status absorbers in OU if you really don't want to deal with it). I'm not against the idea of banning hypnosis, Darkai and Iron Valiant were some pretty ass abusers but like banning spore, sleep powder??? IDK, it just fell as an shame to me, it could give some mons a niche in the tier which i always think it's cool

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

are there any mons you believe will be the next araquanid? anything from nu or lower that you wholeheartedly believe is viable enough and consistent enough to have a place in the tier given the proper attention? no judgement, name something that'd get you laughed out of a serious discussion but you would genuinely use

Click to collapse...

so it turns out the answer to this was cresselia (nubl but close enough). how bout that

my follow-up question: is cresselia the next araquanid? will it stick around for a couple months before fading away completely? or is this more like a gweezing where it'll settle into a proper consistent role and we'll be seeing it for a good long while? could it potentially even cement itself as a meta staple? is it just a flash in the pan and we'll have forgotten about it 2 olt cycles from now? discuss

 

[Alternator]

I miss sleep in general, yeah i guess it annoying but sleep added another level of depth to the game (and gen 9 has like 3 different status absorbers in OU if you really don't want to deal with it). I'm not against the idea of banning hypnosis, Darkai and Iron Valiant were some pretty ass abusers but like banning spore, sleep powder??? IDK, it just fell as an shame to me, it could give some mons a niche in the tier which i always think it's cool

Click to collapse...

Sleep clause was an abomination upon tiering policy that was only permitted to exist because it always existed - it predates Smogon, so that's not a figurative expression, as long as Smogon has existed, sleep clause has existed.

The thing is, sleep clause was functional; it kept sleep in check. So long as that remained true, then it could continue to be grandfathered in, with only a handful of users preferring to remove sleep entirely on pure policy grounds. The moment that sleep clause stopped being sufficient, it lost its justification to continue existing. Why add a second violation of tiering policy by banning Hypnosis - clearly inferior to Sleep Powder, barely better than Sing - just to slap a fix on an outdated clause?

And, to bring it back around to the actual SV OU metagame, removing sleep entirely hasn't harmed the tier. Amoonguss was the only notable casualty, and its role as a Regenerator pivot wasn't unique, there's a half-dozen quality options and a couple more niche picks. Last I checked it's still usable on stall as a Wellspring answer, even, since losing Spore didn't weaken that one specific role, only its utility into the rest of the opponent's team.

Every other mon that used sleep in OU was either barely hanging on to OU viability already, or only rarely even carried a sleep move since those sets relied on surprise to work. There might be collateral damage to lower tiers, but to be blunt that's not OU's concern.

 

[Heatranator]

Frankly put, sleep was dumb. Its always been dumb, and if you have to use a specific clause to keep it in check, then when said clause doesn't even work you have to start kicking it out of the meta.

Also as a sidenote, a lot of people think it was "just darkrai and ival" but this was not the case. Red card amoonguss basically picked a mon to OHKO and it was completely random, while venusaur/hilligant also were abusing the move. Frankly put, those other mons were also annoying af to face so i think boiling it down to just the two OU mons is untrue.

Theres also the fact that since the gen 9 sleep ban, gen 4 has also banned it, and combining that with gen 5's sleep ban (due to sleep turns resetting on switch out, which makes sleep harder to burn), thats 3 out of 9 gens of which sleep has been banned. 33% of gens have banned it, the mechanic has definetely shown itself to be a problem. Only gen where sleep is completely umproblematic is gen 2 maybe, where rest talk is a lot more prominent and even then it can def be powerful if you use it right.

Yes some mons lost a niche they once had, but honestly these mons as stated above were niche already. Amoonguss still has a niche on stall, breloom was ass already, hilligant/venu are fine still, yawn users still are good so like, there really wasnt much to lose.

 

[Mortifi]

first real post from a long time lurker and ladderer, hi y'all.

I wanted to talk about focus blast gholdengo as I feel like I've been seeing this option run more on ladder recently. Is this a real trend or am I just hallucinating, and if it is real, what's driving it? Maybe people are just getting sick of dealing with gambit and hrott but those two have been popular for a while.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

first real post from a long time lurker and ladderer, hi y'all.

I wanted to talk about focus blast gholdengo as I feel like I've been seeing this option run more on ladder recently. Is this a real trend or am I just hallucinating, and if it is real, what's driving it? Maybe people are just getting sick of dealing with gambit and hrott but those two have been popular for a while.

Click to collapse...

nothing drives gholdengo, gholdengo drives itself

(credit to DrifblooomCF for the art)
but seriously folks

focus blast gholdengo is primarily driven by the fact that the most consistent answers to ghold's stab are gambit, hamurott, and ting-lu, all of whom are mangled by it. at +2 it's not even a particularly safe switch-in for blissey. ghost/fighting is kind of a classic two-move synergy that hits everything for at least neutral damage except hisuian zoroark, so it's unsurprising to see it on ghold and frankly it's the other coverage options that have always seemed like the "alternative" ones on offensive np to me. it comes and goes on ladder because it's a very useful option but people who ladder don't like having to click a 70% accuracy move and would rather solve the matchups vs the things focus blast hits by switching out. if i had to guess, the uptick right now is probably because it's olt time and a lot of tour players are laddering right now, and tour players are way more comfy building with and clicking high-risk-high-reward options and playing aggressive

 

[Heatranator]

first real post from a long time lurker and ladderer, hi y'all.

I wanted to talk about focus blast gholdengo as I feel like I've been seeing this option run more on ladder recently. Is this a real trend or am I just hallucinating, and if it is real, what's driving it? Maybe people are just getting sick of dealing with gambit and hrott but those two have been popular for a while.

Click to collapse...

As stated above, focus blast ghold has always been a set and can have some of the highest reward of gholds sets (well, hex sets prob have higher reward maybe). Main issue with the set is that well, you have to HIT the move to actually let it have value. There is also the fact that dgleam can also be used and can hit a lot of targets that focus blast also hits, albeit at a lot less power. But nuking kingambit and 3HKO'ing ting lu is still very good.

my follow-up question: is cresselia the next araquanid? will it stick around for a couple months before fading away completely? or is this more like a gweezing where it'll settle into a proper consistent role and we'll be seeing it for a good long while? could it potentially even cement itself as a meta staple? is it just a flash in the pan and we'll have forgotten about it 2 olt cycles from now? discuss

Click to collapse...

Forgot about this question, but after playing on ladder more (tilted all the way to 1500s because yay), IDT so. Part of the reason i think cress is so good rn is that it abuses a lot of meta trends that are currently happening. Mons such as Heatran, ttar, tink are at all time lows which are otherwise great checks to it. I've personally been running a taunt ttar, lo exca and rocky helm keldeo team which basically can farm any cress teams as long as you deal with its partners (which isn't the hardest).
Part of cress's effectiveness rn I think is also that there is so much to deal with in the meta. You have the usual suspects such as waterpon, kyurem, gambit, zama etc, but other things such as ursa, zarude, iron hands, blaziken etc are popping up more and more. Covering all of these is really difficult, and thats probably why the above checks to cress are falling off. Ttar dies to a lot of the coverage moves that mons carry like focus blast on darkrai and ghold, heatran is a steel that struggles into kyurem, tink is not a long term check to many things in the slightest etc. You need to cover so much so your slots need to provide value.
Now, I do think as the meta adapts, said mons will find better niches. For instance on the ttar sand team I've been running, rocky helmet keldeo has been a great softcheck to pokemon like gambit, darkrai, hamu etc which helps a lot against things these teams do have issues against. I've been experimenting with skeledirge since it hard counters cress and while the teams haven't been great, skele has put in work. Maybe even something like spdef clef you could use alongside heatran in order to check kyurem (though there is prob something better then that...) But regardless, I think adaptions will make cress fall off and eventually go back to its original place of decent, but specific.

 

[raffe]

Now, I do think as the meta adapts, said mons will find better niches. For instance on the ttar sand team I've been running, rocky helmet keldeo

Click to collapse...

Few meta games continue to evolve and change as much as SV does. I honestly believe a lot of this is because of tera. Ignoring tera for now, I think there is only one other thing to compare SV OU to.

SV has become a self contained, continuously adapting ecosystem, trying constantly to perfect itself and find a sense of calm.

What do I mean ecosystem?
An ecosystem is defined as a community of living things coming together with the non living parts of the environment that come to function as a unit. In Sv, the living things are the mons and the non living things the sets constantly evolving and adopting to the meta.

As in any ecosystem it's not always a suitable habit for a lot of the mons that once called OU home. Iron Crown, Heatran and Tinkaton were forced out by the hostile meta as their role was slowly being replaced and they weren't as consistent as once before. Others like Ttar (more on this mon later), Prim, And Gweez continue to fight to call this home.

While a fall for one is a rise for another. Our ecosystem has seen a few new mons moving in. Cresselia took a hostile takeover for the ecosystem like an infection. Having not seen usage in years, and the normal checks being forced out it would infect unprepared teams, making them instantly invalid and forcing players to hide out in the 1400s, free from Cress.

There's one thing at the center of the ecosystem fueling everything. From high tier to low tiers, they all want Tera. From the top of the food chain, Kingambit, Dragonite, Gliscor, Ogerpon, all the way to the bottom feeders, who can only survive from teraing. Mons like Maushold, Hydrapple, Okidogi all using it for different reasons. I think specifically Tera saves us the RPS top tier meta otherwise.

 

[MrAntiMatter_]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2669835528

I genuinely don't understand why someone would run this. Block Leppa Berry Recycle Rest Snorlax is really bad but it's the second time I've encountered it on the ladder. Can it really win or is it just to make your opponent forfeit after 50 turns ? Like, ONE crit and it's the end for Snorlax.

 

[Eeveeto]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2669835528

I genuinely don't understand why someone would run this. Block Leppa Berry Recycle Rest Snorlax is really bad but it's the second time I've encountered it on the ladder. Can it really win or is it just to make your opponent forfeit after 50 turns ? Like, ONE crit and it's the end for Snorlax.

Click to collapse...

Very unreliable and match-up fishing, but can get some kills when unexpected. Or even worse than kills, PP Stalls until the trapped target becomes set-up fodder for something else. Still very hard to make it work.

 

[AbrarS]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2669835528

I genuinely don't understand why someone would run this. Block Leppa Berry Recycle Rest Snorlax is really bad but it's the second time I've encountered it on the ladder. Can it really win or is it just to make your opponent forfeit after 50 turns ? Like, ONE crit and it's the end for Snorlax.

Click to collapse...

Very unreliable and match-up fishing indeed. But when the fish bite, you get a cool little 1000 turn game to show your friends.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2668990621?p2

 

[Iroha Tamaki]

Heya everyone! Very new to the forums and the OU singles format in general, so I hope this is the right place to post this. Looking for feedback on a team I built myself for OU ladder. I will insert the pokepaste here so that y'all can see the full team sheet, but I'll explain my rationale for why I did some things too.

So, this is a hyper offense team based around an offensive core of Raging Bolt, Iron Valiant and Gholdengo, the sets of which will be found below:

(Raging Bolt) @ Leftovers
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderclap
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunderbolt

(Gholdengo) @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Trick
- Thunder Wave

(Iron Valiant) @ Booster Energy
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Moonblast
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Encore

I felt like these 3 mons, beyond forming the classic Dragon-Fairy-Steel core, provided decent coverage with their movepools. Raging Bolt has priority with Thunderclap, and if given the chance to set up, is a pretty solid wallbreaker. Booster Energy Speed Iron Valiant and Choice Scarf Gholdengo both provide fast offensive options, and are able to use Tera to bolster their Fairy and Steel STABs respectively. I do see this core running into potential problems tho, such as Tera Grass Dondozo (no strong Fire STAB), though I am not that familiar with the common walls in this format so some insight from y'all would be nice.

As for supports, I decided on Spikes Ting-Lu for hazard setting, Rocky Helmet Landorus-T as a defensive pivot which can also set Stealth Rock, as well as Terrain Extender Rillaboom. Rillaboom felt like the perfect pick for this team, given that its Grassy Terrain can weaken the opposing Ground moves which threaten both Raging Bolt and Gholdengo.

Hoping to hear y'alls feedback! :3

 

[raffe]

I'll be honest this is the least fun sv has ever been. Its so awful right now. Its been 4 years of this metagame and its never been more boring.

Dnite double drag,, hrott ghold, red card glimm offense, random storm teams, etc etc. These same mons are so restricitve and impossibel to stop unless you you offense aswell.

My challenge for any builders out there.
Build a balance team that can beat Wellspring, Kingambit,, Dnite, Cress, Kyurem, Sun Wake+Bolt, Gholdengo, Lorb Ceru, and Darkrai.

Free Arch Free Terapagos, Why we got no complex bans
Here are the first teams I saw when I clicked on olt btw

 

[Moyashi]

I'll be honest this is the least fun sv has ever been. Its so awful right now. Its been 4 years of this metagame and its never been more boring.

Dnite double drag,, hrott ghold, red card glimm offense, random storm teams, etc etc. These same mons are so restricitve and impossibel to stop unless you you offense aswell.

My challenge for any builders out there.
Build a balance team that can be Wellspring, Kingambit,, Dnite, Cress, Kyurem, Sun Wake+Bolt, Gholdengo, Lorb Ceru, and Darkrai.

Free Arch Free Terapagos, Why we got no complex bans
Here are the first teams I saw when I clicked on olt btw
View attachment 858536View attachment 858537View attachment 858538View attachment 858539View attachment 858540View attachment 858541View attachment 858545View attachment 858546View attachment 858542View attachment 858543

Click to collapse...

Not sure why you threw glimm in here when it’s such an inoffensive pokemon…?

As for the general idea, yes there’s a lot of things to account for. That’s why it’s crucial for balance to load mons with strong role compression so they can cover enough while remaining proactive and not just relying solely on long term gameplans.

And for as annoying as some of these pokemon may be, they themselves also fit on and enable balance themselves. Dragonite, Kyurem, Kingambit, Darkrai, Cresselia, Gholdengo… they all bring value to balance. And that’s of course to say nothing of staples like Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Cinderace, Pecharunt, Glowking… there’s no shortage of excellent sources of that role compression.

To be clear I sympathize with the feeling that there’s a lot to account for. But I don’t think it’s quite as bad as you suggest.

That said one bit,

Free Arch Free Terapagos, Why we got no complex bans

Click to collapse...

I just want to add that nether of these would be worth it, since the former requires a complex ban of a non broken move, and non rain arch is very average at best as a pokemon that wouldn’t really move the needle in any serious way, while Terapagos just isn’t really needed for anything. Entry hazard removal and general anti hazard options were not really the issues they were made out to be early gen now that stuff has been more optimized and understood and we’ve got plenty of good options, enough of them.

The fact we’re still seeing innovations such as Cresselia is a testament to there being so much left to explore in this tier and I think that’s just fine.

 

[FirstlyMe]

I'll be honest this is the least fun sv has ever been. Its so awful right now. Its been 4 years of this metagame and its never been more boring.

Dnite double drag,, hrott ghold, red card glimm offense, random storm teams, etc etc. These same mons are so restricitve and impossibel to stop unless you you offense aswell.

My challenge for any builders out there.
Build a balance team that can beat Wellspring, Kingambit,, Dnite, Cress, Kyurem, Sun Wake+Bolt, Gholdengo, Lorb Ceru, and Darkrai.

Free Arch Free Terapagos, Why we got no complex bans
Here are the first teams I saw when I clicked on olt btw
View attachment 858536View attachment 858537View attachment 858538View attachment 858539View attachment 858540View attachment 858541View attachment 858545View attachment 858546View attachment 858542View attachment 858543

Click to collapse...

i can’t agree more, i took a 10 months break from this game and when i came back all i see is ceruledge screens HO and substitute spam, maybe it’s just the mathcmaker trying to show me the fattest middle finger possible but this meta feels insufferable to play in now.

i’m trying to build around banded zama rn can i just fking cant when i’m being faced up against screens like every 1-2 games

 

[Darth Ragebait]

raffe’s main point was that the tier was feeling stale and overly repetitive to play in because of how spammed certain archetypes are. Tho i do agree with you that the same mons which makes teambuilding impossible are also the same mons that make it possible (if that makes sense), I do understand where he’s coming from, as i have my own personal experience and he has even supplied multiple screenshots regarding the topic.

Pagos should frankly be unbanned imo with a complex ban on tera for it if possible, but it’s just that complex bans of such nature are unlikely. But yeah arch is just a midass mon outside of rain.

Click to collapse...

Yeah i Understand why you Think Like that, But i Think the Metagame don't Need Anymore Bans or Unbans, it is what it is and we Should Respect the No Complex Ban Policy that Smogon has. I don't Like it Either, But there are Other Metagames which you can Play and are Probably better then Gen 9 OU Metagame.

 

[FirstlyMe]

Yeah i Understand why you Think Like that, But i Think the Metagame don't Need Anymore Bans or Unbans, it is what it is and we Should Respect the No Complex Ban Policy that Smogon has. I don't Like it Either, But there are Other Metagames which you can Play and are Probably better then Gen 9 OU Metagame.

Click to collapse...

indeed, even in my opinion complex bans should be kept to an absolute minimum because well… they’re complex! and it guarantees more divided opinions across the playerbase compared to regular bans.

I think the main problem with SVOU isn’t that there are too many threats to deal with in the builder or anything, but rather it’s that people overuse certain archetypes and pokémon too much. Imo the meta itself could, well, certainly be better but it isn’t anywhere near a truly unplayable state as what a lot of players exaggerate it to be. I love making this joke that the OU playerbase just LOVES to complain beyond anything else. A truly unplayable and unbalanced metagame imo would be something like gen 1 ubers lol.

This isn’t the council’s fault or anything but rather that ladder just loves to use the same teams and strategies. Ik that people play to win but then it gets to a certain point before it becomes repetitive yk?
Now i still have to say that there is still quite a lot of variation on the ladder, like look at pinkacross for example, he loves building with unorthodox mons and sets. It’s just that it’s just that there isn’t near the same level of variation previous gen ous or others metagames (like natdex for eg) have. And for a lot of people like me, ladder just feels stale.

either way, i doubt any of this will be fixed anytime soon but yeah.