ninetales in isolation is not a broken pokemon but in terms of sun it is too strong a weather setter and the actual archetype of sun itself is needing a nerf
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Announcement UU Suspect Process Round 18 - you are my sunshine - np: Ninetales
- Thread starter vivalospride
- Start date
- Status
ninetales in isolation is not a broken pokemon but in terms of sun it is too strong a weather setter and the actual archetype of sun itself is needing a nerf
are we deadass rightnow bruh
ninetales is not a nuke survivor its a weather setter, and why the hell would i care about pivoting when i can use eject button on a regen pokemon of my team. rocks yeah you cant set up them but these teams carry a defogger anyways.
ninetales is by far the best sun setter ofcourse you wont have koraidon or groudon in uu. and what disadvantage im getting by running ninetales if my team has chlorophyll, protosynthesis and a flare blitz spammer.
that "kill yourself" niche is the defining part have you played those boss fights when you killed him with low hp left on your charachter and that guy just has phase2, treat it like that.
and i guess you should definetly view this post and view this thread .
And i think you posted smth about ninetales not surviving a lokix first impression, well i think you got suspect reqs so you should know what switching does.
So not only do I I have to waste a pokemon slot on ninetales I have to waste an item slot on eject button. For what? So slither wing can be the second best bug type in the tier? So harcanine can break stuff it already breaks? So I can hope that my specific venusaur set isn’t walled?
And a mon killing itself isn’t like a second health bar its like a 5v6
Yes. Welcome to building good teams.
Yes. Btw slither wings becomes the best bug but whatever.
252+ Atk Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Donphan in Sun: 190-225 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo in Sun: 161-189 (49.8 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios in Sun: 177-209 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame in Sun: 195-229 (54.3 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh yea this was choice scarf time for banded harc
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Slowking in Sun: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 152+ Def Toxapex in Sun: 114-135 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO (this one favours you but yk what im still putting this here)
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Rotom-Wash in Sun: 149-176 (49 - 57.8%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Skeledirge in Sun: 200-236 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Btw tera fire can 2 shot these switchins
Yes. Who is walling your growth venusaur weather ball in the sun but if a balloon heatran comes hey he wants to cteam sun.
Yes it is. Ever heard of a thing called "peice sacrifice" its common in chess but applies here too
Gonna kindly request that we avoid spamming this thread by trying to keep replies to single posts, theres multiple double posts here that don't achieve anything. Ive deleted some of the posts that are unecessary to clear up thread a little. To avoid this discussion going in further circles as well,
No you definitely don't have to waste an item slot on eject button? Sun teams have multiple options for middle ground options, things like Latios / Air Balloon Heatran / Excadrill etc act as your potential swaps in, and obviously Slither Wing is generating momentum anyway. Ninetales can kill itself with Healing wish for sure but that also is kinda turning it back into a 6v6 anyway, by giving a second life to eg. a Scarf Flare Blitz Slither Wing.
Also yes Slither Wing is already one of the better pokemon in this tier regardless of Sun, the Scarf set is an awesome general pivot and revenge killer to so much, and Sun just elevates it to a next level. Harcanine also breaks things it doesn't before as demonstrated above, CB sets also come extremely close to starting to OHKO things that would otherwise be good one time swap ins.
Regarding this too, it can run bulk but it can also run offensive investment its two options, if you run Encore + HW sets you might as well just run max hp max speed, but solar beam sets should definitley run SpA to properly pressure stuff. The fact it cant set rocks unlike torkoal is definitely a downside, but Torkoal really cannot spin relibaly at all and should always be paired with a second spinner anyway, things like SpDef Excadrill arent horrible partners anyway cause they cover bad mus like Latios nicely.
What niches does it have that Torkoal doesnt? Healing Wish being "just killing itself" is a definite understatement, things like Slither Wing getting a second life is terrifying and much better allows it to abuse its Sun boosted Tera Fire Flare Blitz's off Scarf sets. Fast encore is a good punish that allows you to potentially get set up chances, access to Solar Beam means you pressure Rotom-Wash which otherwise gets endless pivoting on you, and can somewhat pressure slowking etc. Torkoal brings with it Sun setting but other than denying Tyranitar and allowing eg. Heatran to not have to run Rocks this is all it does, and honestly things like SpDef Excadrill can still allow this regardless.
Do i think Ninetales removal necessarily fixes sun? no (see my post in other thread), but it definitely has advantages over Torkoal and Healing Wish is the big one, it means things like SLither Wing get to be played more aggro (and this allows you to use it asa pivot onto things too as per other posts about how to get stuff in), and means you may have to handle eg. a venusaur twice which becomes far scarier and much more limiting to your counterplay.
No you definitely don't have to waste an item slot on eject button? Sun teams have multiple options for middle ground options, things like Latios / Air Balloon Heatran / Excadrill etc act as your potential swaps in, and obviously Slither Wing is generating momentum anyway. Ninetales can kill itself with Healing wish for sure but that also is kinda turning it back into a 6v6 anyway, by giving a second life to eg. a Scarf Flare Blitz Slither Wing.
Also yes Slither Wing is already one of the better pokemon in this tier regardless of Sun, the Scarf set is an awesome general pivot and revenge killer to so much, and Sun just elevates it to a next level. Harcanine also breaks things it doesn't before as demonstrated above, CB sets also come extremely close to starting to OHKO things that would otherwise be good one time swap ins.
Regarding this too, it can run bulk but it can also run offensive investment its two options, if you run Encore + HW sets you might as well just run max hp max speed, but solar beam sets should definitley run SpA to properly pressure stuff. The fact it cant set rocks unlike torkoal is definitely a downside, but Torkoal really cannot spin relibaly at all and should always be paired with a second spinner anyway, things like SpDef Excadrill arent horrible partners anyway cause they cover bad mus like Latios nicely.
What niches does it have that Torkoal doesnt? Healing Wish being "just killing itself" is a definite understatement, things like Slither Wing getting a second life is terrifying and much better allows it to abuse its Sun boosted Tera Fire Flare Blitz's off Scarf sets. Fast encore is a good punish that allows you to potentially get set up chances, access to Solar Beam means you pressure Rotom-Wash which otherwise gets endless pivoting on you, and can somewhat pressure slowking etc. Torkoal brings with it Sun setting but other than denying Tyranitar and allowing eg. Heatran to not have to run Rocks this is all it does, and honestly things like SpDef Excadrill can still allow this regardless.
Do i think Ninetales removal necessarily fixes sun? no (see my post in other thread), but it definitely has advantages over Torkoal and Healing Wish is the big one, it means things like SLither Wing get to be played more aggro (and this allows you to use it asa pivot onto things too as per other posts about how to get stuff in), and means you may have to handle eg. a venusaur twice which becomes far scarier and much more limiting to your counterplay.
In my opinion, there's just too many good options to beat sun it just feels too matchup to me, tera fairy sinstcha walls most sun teams we have Pex in the tier we have flashfire Heatran in the tier, I understand healing Wish is a big deal it just doesnt seem worth it to me
Tera dragon umbreon right there gng
I already made a post about Sun (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sun-in-uu.3786983/#post-11102640), but I'll make a quick one here as well. I don't really care to discuss Ninetales specifically, I don't think nerfing Sun in the first place is necessary or the right course of action and the mons it enables are more relevant than it is itself.
Is Sun Broken?
No. I don't think anyone is arguing for it, but just in case, Sun can be answered by a variety of mons, including a lot of common and viable ones. It's also far from dominant in the metagame with Ninetales and Torkoal having a combined ladder usage of ~4.5% in August and its usage in tours like UU Invitational generally hovering around that too. If it were properly broken, we would see a lot more of it as people would judge there's an inherent advantage to play Sun.
Is Sun Unhealthy?
Maybe? It is pretty hard to handle without solid answers and, even if Fire resists are mandatory, you can't just run any Fire resist and be fine into Venusaur or Harcanine. It does definitely require some attention in the builder. That being said, this special attention is not overly restrictive and also includes some of the best mons in the meta. Latios, Tyranitar, Heatran and Lokix are all amazing and you can accidentally end up with a few of these without even thinking about Sun, not to mention some of the less used, but still viable options like Slowking and Gardevoir. I do find myself sometimes thinking a team is a bit weak to Sun and I need to change something up, but I never find I have to accept Sun as an entirely losing matchup. Sun is restrictive, but it's pretty minor and I think banning Ninetales wouldn't have a massive effect on the tier or teambuilding compared to other options we could test down the line.
Is Sun even Cheese?
I'm of the opinion Sun is an honest playstyle. I'd define a cheesy playstyle as one that attempts to win by minimizing how much skill is required from each players and I don't think Sun fits the bill. Due to how common answers to it are, as I've said earlier, you have to be smart about positioning as well as chipping down or killing those mons when possible. You'll rarely run into matchups where you can just autopilot to a win or where there's nothing you can do. This mostly applies to the core Sun abusers like Venusaur, Harcanine, Heatran and Slither Wing, there are still some Sun mons that are much more reliant on matchup like Scovillain, but those are even less common and most likely a separate issue from a Ninetales ban considering Healing Wish is not what's making this kind of mon a problem.
If there's anything cheesy about Sun it's how explosive it is. Most of its mons are great at punishing poor or abusable play and it definitely makes it a stressful style to play against. That being said, most Sun games I've watched or played haven't ended up with a Venusaur sweep or with Harcanine and Slither Wing getting enough free switch-ins to break through entire teams with ease. Especially with access to Tera, there seems to be enough wiggle room for Sun games to consistently end up as proper back-and-forths and not the kind of feast or famine games you might see from Rain. As a whole, I think whatever crazy offensive momentum Sun can get ends up being counterbalanced by its abusers generally being weak to hazards and reliant on Sun being up. These give a counterattack angle for just about every team where if you can stave off Sun long enough, you'll be able to end up in and endgame where Rocks are up or Ninetales is dead which helps tremendously. As a whole, I think Sun requires skill to pilot and to play against.
Anyway, I'll be voting DNB. I don't really view Sun as an issue, but I also think a Ninetales ban wouldn't change enough for the metagame to make it worth it. People have already been experimenting with Torkoal Sun and it makes me feel like it wouldn't dissuade people from running Sun in the first place. Even if the lack of Healing Wish and Encore makes it a bit harder to play against, a lot of the playing and building principles would stay. Finally, while I don't think the metagame needs change right now, action on other mons like Latios would probably be more efficient in switching things up and freeing up room in the builder.
Is Sun Broken?
No. I don't think anyone is arguing for it, but just in case, Sun can be answered by a variety of mons, including a lot of common and viable ones. It's also far from dominant in the metagame with Ninetales and Torkoal having a combined ladder usage of ~4.5% in August and its usage in tours like UU Invitational generally hovering around that too. If it were properly broken, we would see a lot more of it as people would judge there's an inherent advantage to play Sun.
Is Sun Unhealthy?
Maybe? It is pretty hard to handle without solid answers and, even if Fire resists are mandatory, you can't just run any Fire resist and be fine into Venusaur or Harcanine. It does definitely require some attention in the builder. That being said, this special attention is not overly restrictive and also includes some of the best mons in the meta. Latios, Tyranitar, Heatran and Lokix are all amazing and you can accidentally end up with a few of these without even thinking about Sun, not to mention some of the less used, but still viable options like Slowking and Gardevoir. I do find myself sometimes thinking a team is a bit weak to Sun and I need to change something up, but I never find I have to accept Sun as an entirely losing matchup. Sun is restrictive, but it's pretty minor and I think banning Ninetales wouldn't have a massive effect on the tier or teambuilding compared to other options we could test down the line.
Is Sun even Cheese?
I'm of the opinion Sun is an honest playstyle. I'd define a cheesy playstyle as one that attempts to win by minimizing how much skill is required from each players and I don't think Sun fits the bill. Due to how common answers to it are, as I've said earlier, you have to be smart about positioning as well as chipping down or killing those mons when possible. You'll rarely run into matchups where you can just autopilot to a win or where there's nothing you can do. This mostly applies to the core Sun abusers like Venusaur, Harcanine, Heatran and Slither Wing, there are still some Sun mons that are much more reliant on matchup like Scovillain, but those are even less common and most likely a separate issue from a Ninetales ban considering Healing Wish is not what's making this kind of mon a problem.
If there's anything cheesy about Sun it's how explosive it is. Most of its mons are great at punishing poor or abusable play and it definitely makes it a stressful style to play against. That being said, most Sun games I've watched or played haven't ended up with a Venusaur sweep or with Harcanine and Slither Wing getting enough free switch-ins to break through entire teams with ease. Especially with access to Tera, there seems to be enough wiggle room for Sun games to consistently end up as proper back-and-forths and not the kind of feast or famine games you might see from Rain. As a whole, I think whatever crazy offensive momentum Sun can get ends up being counterbalanced by its abusers generally being weak to hazards and reliant on Sun being up. These give a counterattack angle for just about every team where if you can stave off Sun long enough, you'll be able to end up in and endgame where Rocks are up or Ninetales is dead which helps tremendously. As a whole, I think Sun requires skill to pilot and to play against.
Anyway, I'll be voting DNB. I don't really view Sun as an issue, but I also think a Ninetales ban wouldn't change enough for the metagame to make it worth it. People have already been experimenting with Torkoal Sun and it makes me feel like it wouldn't dissuade people from running Sun in the first place. Even if the lack of Healing Wish and Encore makes it a bit harder to play against, a lot of the playing and building principles would stay. Finally, while I don't think the metagame needs change right now, action on other mons like Latios would probably be more efficient in switching things up and freeing up room in the builder.
i've already shared my opinion on my recommended course of action when dealing with sun, but i'm still fine with the decision to suspect ninetales even if it wasn't my first choice. one thing i realize was missing from my post is an actual opinion about sun in this tier. here it is:
i definitely don't consider sun to be broken. there's counterplay to it on all playstyles. we've got opposing weather setters for pretty much any playstyle, there's atales for ho, ttar for offense, slowking for balance, even stall has hippowdon if you really hate sun that much, and several common mons can check multiple mons on popular sun cores defensively, offensively, or both. most importantly, latios has a list of resistances, immunities, and offensive stab that's uncannily good against sun (also extremely good on sun, but he's latios, he's good on everything)
what i do think, though, is that sun is too strong right now and it's affecting the health of the meta. this happened some time ago with rain as well, for similar reasons: the setter was able to generate momentum way too easily. in that case, we banned pelipper and rain hasn't been a tangible issue since. now, sun's alternative setter is a lot more useful than rain's, but torkoal specializes in playing the hazard game and typically is just a straight-up momentum drain the second time it comes out, while the second time ninetales comes out it tends to fully heal something that you spent a mon and a half wearing down and also give it a free switch-in. i think that's a bit much for a setter in a meta where sun is as strong as it is here, so i will be voting ban on ninetales
i definitely don't consider sun to be broken. there's counterplay to it on all playstyles. we've got opposing weather setters for pretty much any playstyle, there's atales for ho, ttar for offense, slowking for balance, even stall has hippowdon if you really hate sun that much, and several common mons can check multiple mons on popular sun cores defensively, offensively, or both. most importantly, latios has a list of resistances, immunities, and offensive stab that's uncannily good against sun (also extremely good on sun, but he's latios, he's good on everything)
what i do think, though, is that sun is too strong right now and it's affecting the health of the meta. this happened some time ago with rain as well, for similar reasons: the setter was able to generate momentum way too easily. in that case, we banned pelipper and rain hasn't been a tangible issue since. now, sun's alternative setter is a lot more useful than rain's, but torkoal specializes in playing the hazard game and typically is just a straight-up momentum drain the second time it comes out, while the second time ninetales comes out it tends to fully heal something that you spent a mon and a half wearing down and also give it a free switch-in. i think that's a bit much for a setter in a meta where sun is as strong as it is here, so i will be voting ban on ninetales
Alright so my reqs took way longer then I thought to the point that my original post I had written up got deleted cause I needed to restart my computer at one point :) Laddered for this suspect due to UUSRPG and SCL ongoing and need to get in my 2 month UU grind that I have every 9 months. Anyways, I think as of now I am firmly DNB.
Going into this suspect, I was keeping an open mind, as while I did think sun in RU was completely and utterly fine, UU has stronger and more varied abusers it would seem. But after testing on ladder a bunch and with some people, I can confidently say it is even worse then RU sun, to the point I think UU sun is bordering bad.
Frankly put, UU has a hell of a lot of mons that can deal with sun. I compiled a list of pokemon that I think have a decent mu into sun.
Arcanine Hisui
Clodsire
Conkeldurr
Donphan
Excadrill
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hydreigon
Keldeo
Latios
Lokix
Mamoswine
Mandibuzz
Sandy Shocks
Scizor
Skeledirge
Slither Wing
Slowking
Toxapex
Tyranitar
Weavile
Gyarados
Thundurus-I
Gardevoir
This is an extensive list of pokemon, nevermind stuff such as Revavroom, Metagross and Serperior that aren't exactly bad into sun if played well. I would say half of UU mons have a good or even mu into sun, and usually teams stack multiple of these pokemon on teams (usually 3-4 maybe). Add on the things that have an okay MU such as reva or gapdos and that prib bumps up to 3/4ths. If your team is bad into sun, you have probably not made a good team overall.
To show I'm not bullshitting, lemme show you one of my teams I used during my reqs run.
:heatran: :sinistcha: :keldeo: :sandy shocks: :mandibuzz: :latios:
This was a team that I naturally built, starting with a FWG core and then building it further into a hstack core of sorts. Here are the list of measures I have against sun:
Flash Fire Heatran to check the various fire types that sun carries.
Rocky Helmet pain split keldeo to check harcanine.
Sandy shocks to get up hazards and gain a speed boost to revenge kill either slither or harcanine.
Spdef mandi to softcheck latios and venusaur (especially with brave bird to do massive damage to venu).
Scarf latios to revenge kill choice locked mons and spam draco's against sun.
Again, I naturally fitted a lot of counterplay to sun, and other things like sinistcha helping keep up rocks to chip the sun sweepers are also able to help. This is why I disagree with people saying that it constrains the builder, you are not going out of your way much if at all to account for sun since it is just such a great playstyle.
Even the old samples usually have decent MU's into sun. The only team which I would say has a 'bad' mu into sun is the last team and maybe the serp BO, but the former still has scarf latios to nuke sun mons while outspeeding alongside keldeo to check harcanine, while the latter has sub NP hydreigon, glare serp, sandy shocks and spdef foul play mandi. These are also before the drops, which both help into sun and shift things around more to make sun more difficult to use (for instance, fez is worse with heatran drop and that is a pretty easy mon for venu to setup on potentially, so less setup opportunities).
I would also like to ask a question to the Ban Crowd, because I've been seeing opinions on it that have truly confused me.
Does banning ninetales actually change the status quo enough?
For this, IDT so. People are stating that torkoal is a fine enough option on sun teams due to body press nuking ttar while having rocks+spn so even though healing wish+encore is still a step up, we have seen torkoal can do the job fine enough. But also if teams are naturally fitting multiple checks to sun, is removing it actually changing much? You are not actually removing much strain from the builder. Compare this to pokemon such as Latios, Weavile, Keldeo etc which I think put a lot more constraint naturally on teams and are more wide ranging in usage stats cases (even at peak sun usage in wcop, keldeo was at 21% usage while ninetales was at 6.25%, which means keldeo is at 3.5x usage of sun. Probably a similar story for ladder/other tours). Going after one of these other mons would have a much more impactful change to the tier that would free up the builder way further. If people are voting ban on ninetales even though they don't think its the correct decision, I think that speaks for itself that maybe this is not the correct course of action.
Ultimately, sun ban just feels an incredibly weird ban, one that doesn't really make sense in my opinion. Not only is it not broken (which most ban people agree with) but also it isn't really constraining the builder much if at all. And if you want to free the builder, then multiple other bans would actually help deal with that issue.
Going into this suspect, I was keeping an open mind, as while I did think sun in RU was completely and utterly fine, UU has stronger and more varied abusers it would seem. But after testing on ladder a bunch and with some people, I can confidently say it is even worse then RU sun, to the point I think UU sun is bordering bad.
Frankly put, UU has a hell of a lot of mons that can deal with sun. I compiled a list of pokemon that I think have a decent mu into sun.
Arcanine Hisui
Clodsire
Conkeldurr
Donphan
Excadrill
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hydreigon
Keldeo
Latios
Lokix
Mamoswine
Mandibuzz
Sandy Shocks
Scizor
Skeledirge
Slither Wing
Slowking
Toxapex
Tyranitar
Weavile
Gyarados
Thundurus-I
Gardevoir
This is an extensive list of pokemon, nevermind stuff such as Revavroom, Metagross and Serperior that aren't exactly bad into sun if played well. I would say half of UU mons have a good or even mu into sun, and usually teams stack multiple of these pokemon on teams (usually 3-4 maybe). Add on the things that have an okay MU such as reva or gapdos and that prib bumps up to 3/4ths. If your team is bad into sun, you have probably not made a good team overall.
To show I'm not bullshitting, lemme show you one of my teams I used during my reqs run.
:heatran: :sinistcha: :keldeo: :sandy shocks: :mandibuzz: :latios:
This was a team that I naturally built, starting with a FWG core and then building it further into a hstack core of sorts. Here are the list of measures I have against sun:
Flash Fire Heatran to check the various fire types that sun carries.
Rocky Helmet pain split keldeo to check harcanine.
Sandy shocks to get up hazards and gain a speed boost to revenge kill either slither or harcanine.
Spdef mandi to softcheck latios and venusaur (especially with brave bird to do massive damage to venu).
Scarf latios to revenge kill choice locked mons and spam draco's against sun.
Again, I naturally fitted a lot of counterplay to sun, and other things like sinistcha helping keep up rocks to chip the sun sweepers are also able to help. This is why I disagree with people saying that it constrains the builder, you are not going out of your way much if at all to account for sun since it is just such a great playstyle.
Even the old samples usually have decent MU's into sun. The only team which I would say has a 'bad' mu into sun is the last team and maybe the serp BO, but the former still has scarf latios to nuke sun mons while outspeeding alongside keldeo to check harcanine, while the latter has sub NP hydreigon, glare serp, sandy shocks and spdef foul play mandi. These are also before the drops, which both help into sun and shift things around more to make sun more difficult to use (for instance, fez is worse with heatran drop and that is a pretty easy mon for venu to setup on potentially, so less setup opportunities).
I would also like to ask a question to the Ban Crowd, because I've been seeing opinions on it that have truly confused me.
Does banning ninetales actually change the status quo enough?
For this, IDT so. People are stating that torkoal is a fine enough option on sun teams due to body press nuking ttar while having rocks+spn so even though healing wish+encore is still a step up, we have seen torkoal can do the job fine enough. But also if teams are naturally fitting multiple checks to sun, is removing it actually changing much? You are not actually removing much strain from the builder. Compare this to pokemon such as Latios, Weavile, Keldeo etc which I think put a lot more constraint naturally on teams and are more wide ranging in usage stats cases (even at peak sun usage in wcop, keldeo was at 21% usage while ninetales was at 6.25%, which means keldeo is at 3.5x usage of sun. Probably a similar story for ladder/other tours). Going after one of these other mons would have a much more impactful change to the tier that would free up the builder way further. If people are voting ban on ninetales even though they don't think its the correct decision, I think that speaks for itself that maybe this is not the correct course of action.
Ultimately, sun ban just feels an incredibly weird ban, one that doesn't really make sense in my opinion. Not only is it not broken (which most ban people agree with) but also it isn't really constraining the builder much if at all. And if you want to free the builder, then multiple other bans would actually help deal with that issue.
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With regards to this post, quite a few of the mons you have listed as being decent into sun are only capable of making good progress vs some variants of sun. Conversely, sun is capable of making consistent progress against most teams. Exca struggles vs bulkier sun teams with mandi and pert, latios is good but doesn't love dealing with exca and mandi. Scizor helps to rk but struggles to find switches (plus can get walled). Scarf garde isn't great at making progress vs many sun teams, and non scarf garde struggles vs venu. Even if you use many of the mons on this list it is still very likely that you lose. Several of the mons on this list are only able answer 1 or 2 threats on sun. I know the criterion was having a decent mu into sun but that's just not enough. You need to have a good matchup vs sun if you want to be able to beat it with some consistency. Even if you do, you may still end up being overwhelmed by band harc due to sun's absurd ability to position despite being such an aggressive playstyle. The fact that you built that team without thinking of sun doesn't mean that sun is not a big threat in the builder imo. It's already quite a commitment to slot good sun checks on your team, and even doing so you may still lose due to the variance and sheer power of the archetype.
In general, Sun is a powerful matchup fish as it's able to win super easily vs many teams and has very very few unwinnable matchups. It also limits the opposing player's agency, which further limits skill expression. I am not against action against other threats but sun is very uncompetitive imo. Futhermore, ninetales being banned would bring little to no harm to the tier except lowering variety (which the tier has too much of). The same cannot be said for a keldeo or a latios ban. If anyone believes the tier is too hard to build for due to the large number of threats, then please, a ninetales ban would help to solve that problem. The impact won't be monumental but it would be a step in the right direction. If you (addressing the playerbase at large) do not think sun is broken, you should still consider banning it to lower the number of threats in the tier. This would even be in line with tiering policy! The suspect is already underway, we lose no time by banning tales. We can choose to ignore the major problems with the tier or we can take small steps to solve them at no cost. It's incredibly difficult to account for the various threats such as latios, weavile, lokix etc in addition to sun while also having a functioning team. This has to change, and I believe it can.
For excadrill: Yes, there are checks to exca on sun such as mandi and pert, but they are not airtight in the slightest, swampert is very easily chipped by eq (3HKO's) while mandibuzz is 2HKO'd by +2 rock slide if its physdefense (and ofc rock slide flinches exist). And from what I've seen, mandi prefers to be spdef on sun to better answer latios, which is then unable to actually answer exca.
For Latios: Specs draco meteor does so much damage to both of these mons, for exca it can only answer once really, while mandibuzz is forced to click roost to check it, which may potentially burn sun turns and allow a pokemon that can abuse mandi to get in.
For scizor: The teams scizor finds itself on are more volt turny in nature, getting it in should not be a problem considering you are using stuff like fez, sandy shocks, wahstom etc for it. And while it 'can' get walled, typically said mons that can wall it don't like taking its coverage if it ever clicks it (see heatran getting blown up by CC or swampert taking knock/u-turn and getting heavily chipped).
For gardevoir: Unless the opposing team has a heatran (which one focus blast to it takes it out of commision), then scarf moonblast is going to clean. The usual fire resists are either: Scovillain (which takes 40% min from moonblast), venu (who hates psynoise and typically you are getting garde in on venu after a revenge kill or a pivot), ninetales (don't think I have to explain why sacking ninetales hp isn't great) and harcanine (chipped by rocks and doesn't like taking tera fairy moonblast at all). Is it a flawless mon into sun? No. But it can still help a lot into the sun mu lategame by clicking tera and just cleaning up. Also gardevoir is going to be scarf on 80% of teams because scarf moonblast is a great revenge killer/cleaner. Other sets are secondary to that and are much more fringe.
Well yeah? A pokemon can be valuable into sun while only answering 1-2 threats. So what if keldeo only answers harcanine? That doesn't mean it isn't incredibly helpful in the MU by checking it and then forcing it out while getting momentum for its team. So what if Clodsire only answers Venu? I can get up hazards and wall a big sun threat. That is how it works just for natural teambuilding, nobody is going to say sinistcha is bad into a normal team if it only answers 1-2 threats even if there is something like an overcoat mandibuzz on the team, those threats can still be big and just doing that makes it useful.
Yes it can 'technically' overwhelm everything, but that comes not only at the cost of it not only being a lot slower and thus easier to revenge kill, but also the fact that it is rocks weak. If you are not punishing harcanine every time it comes in with either rocks or by using your faster mon to revenge kill it/make big progress then you are going to lose, but teams will naturally be able to do those things. (and if your team doesn't have any mons faster then banded harc, I think there are bigger issues at hand). Weather in any tier has pokemon that can basically overwhelm stuff via sheer power if it gets enough ins. Something like specs walking wake in OU is going to be ripping apart teams no matter the resist, as even those can be 2HKO'd. This is something incredibly similar to banded harcanine, you need to punish the ko's it gets with your own.
But it isn't a commitment... You don't need to go out of your way to do so.
Heres another team that I made that I didn't really consider sun for.
And another that I didn't really consider (its AV conk and scarf latios).
I could post a bunch of teams that ultimately have very good sun MU's, but I think the point still stands, you do not need to commit to sun checks, those are natural. If you are having to go out of your way to slot good sun checks, IMO that team had bigger issues to deal with. If your team didn't have a slither wing check, you are most likely going to struggle into a gapdos or BU slither. Sun is not a big threat in the builder because you just, fit them automatically? Like I cannot really explain it further, it is genuinelly that simple.
And as for the varience part, it really is overstated how much actual varience the playstyle has. Sun IMO, basically requires:
Ninetales
Slither Wing
Harcanine/Heatran (basically a pokemon that can easily switch into fire type attacks under sun)
Venusaur
These four are absolutely required on a team, and IDT you can do them otherwise. The closest is like, venusaur out for hilligant which is a lot worse into stuff like skarmory, skeledirge, talonflame etc which is not worthwhile IMO. Then you require a defensive pokemon like excadrill or mandibuzz to not just become a trade match that you will most likely lose (considering the team cannot deal with stealth rocks/set them up effectively for instance). This leaves one final slot to pick a mon, which like, you have latios, scovillain, hydreigon and maybe entei? And certain ones have overlapping checks to ones that already check other pokemon. An air balloon heatran answers both venu and scovillain. A tyranitar can check venu+hydreigon. Spdef mandi can check venu+latios.
So not only does the sun team basically have 4 slots that are guarenteed, but also can really only max fit one flex abuser and said abusers are only a few extra mons (stuff like sandy shocks I consider more utility, so maybe 5 mons max extra).
For this last part in the sentence, I would say thats actually a good thing! If sun has no 'unwinnable' mu's, that means there is outplay potential by the sun player, making it less cheesy as a whole. Compare this to something like eterrain, which genuinelly has mu's where they cannot win, and I think that makes for more dynamic gameplay. (add in the obligatory its unable to win super easily vs many teams but I made that point above in this post).
Yeah thats kinda how HO works? Like, hazards HO (which IDT people see as broken at all) also limits the opposing players agency, so that point I think is frankly mute.
I am going to adress other parts of this statement later, but I think the mindset of "well we lose nothing from banning ninetales, so just ban it to lower the amount of threats" is an incredibly dangerous mindset for tiering. This can be utilised to justify banning lots of things from the tier that are ultimately low impact bans just because it reduces amount of threats. By this logic, something like a politoed ban could be justified (and rain has also won a few tour games so it ain't even that bad). Obviously sun is better then rain, but I think you get my point. Banning things that are not broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy just because its low impact is not something that should be done.
While this is true, they also have a much larger impact on reducing builder constraint. That is the point of people suggesting something like a latios ban, it makes the builder a lot more freeing as a result, and ultimately actually addresses the issues people have with the tier.
- This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
1. Its under unhealthy, which is stated multiple times as a last resort reasoning, which IDT this metagame is so horrible that this is justified. 6.84/6.58 on enjoyment and 7.08/6.62 for competitiveness, which I think are okay scores and thus drastic action is required. Also further on, it states that" a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player." which even you yourself have stated does not happen with a ninetales ban.
2. Sun currently sits at B- on the VR, and considering that Ttar and Heatran dropped, which both are incredible into sun, IDT its going to increase in ranking even though the VR is outdated. This is very much something that does straddle even 'good', and I would call it mediocre even.
Ultimately, again, sun you not only don't really have to go out of your way to beat, but also the reasonings for banning it don't line up with tiering policy.
I don't have time to address your whole post but I largely disagree all 4 are absolutely required. Sabella posted a sun of his that features neither Harc nor Slither and there's been loads of suns that don't feature Venusaur. The archetype is absolutely customisable and that's not even mentioning that these Pokémon have set diversity as well. Is Ninetales offensive with Solarbeam? is Heatran Eject pack or is it balloon? Is Slither scarf? Band? AV? Is Arcanine scarf? Is it band? is it sash? Does Venusaur have Sludge? What move did it drop? There is SO many questions you need to ask yourself when battling sun which is what contributes to it being unhealthy.
Sun has lots of room to pick and choose what it's weak to and that makes building to accommodate it difficult.
At some point it's just beyond the scope of why sun teams, and here Ninetales specifically, deserve to be banned. Like, sure sun teams run Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and Swampert which have defensive utility and can check stuff but we can keep doing this with x threat. Latios is good vs sun but they can have Mandibuzz, or Excadrill but they can have Swampert, or Hydreigon but they can have Tinkaton. And yeah, that's kind of how Pokemon works, you have different Pokemon that can check different threats. Realistically, sun teams are still linear defensively. They're usually going to use the same generally good defensive Pokemon like Mandibuzz, Swampert, Donphan, and Excadrill because these teams need as much defensive utility in one slot as possible. Sun teams are always going to be fairly vulnerable defensively and there are a number of ways to take advantage of that in a tier with so many threats. And while sun teams can vary in their offensive threats, it's clear a few that are by far the best so while a sun team could not use Slither Wing or Harc, I would be more concerned about sun teams that do in fact use their best Pokemon than ones that don't.
Having played more since my last post and used sun myself, I think it's a bad matchup fish. Sun has really difficult matchups and struggles with a lot of really common Pokemon. Hippowdon isn't the most common thing, which is a shame because I think it's pretty good, but if you do run into it it's an absolutely horrendous matchup from one Pokemon alone. Nevermind that Heatran, Tyranitar, Latios, Hydreigon, Keldeo, Slowking, Toxapex, Sinistcha, Talonflame and many other Pokemon are effective vs sun teams too. If Ninetales was banned, I feel like it would really have a very marginal impact on the tier overall. There are far more impactful things like Weavile, Latios and I think Heatran is lowkey broken and fairly impossible to answer as well. I haven't really seen anyone explain well exactly how banning Ninetales is going to free up the builder. Like, are you not gonna use Heatran, Tyranitar, Keldeo, and Latios anymore? If so, you do you but I just don't see it. Sun teams to me seem like a normal team that can win or lose and in many replays where I have seen sun it did not seem like anything overbearing that could not be managed. And like, if you can't deal with sun, there are still so many options to check the Pokemon used on sun in this tier, and some of these sun Pokemon bare in mind you have to check outside of sun too as they're used on other than sun teams like Slither Wing and Harc.
#banweavile
Having played more since my last post and used sun myself, I think it's a bad matchup fish. Sun has really difficult matchups and struggles with a lot of really common Pokemon. Hippowdon isn't the most common thing, which is a shame because I think it's pretty good, but if you do run into it it's an absolutely horrendous matchup from one Pokemon alone. Nevermind that Heatran, Tyranitar, Latios, Hydreigon, Keldeo, Slowking, Toxapex, Sinistcha, Talonflame and many other Pokemon are effective vs sun teams too. If Ninetales was banned, I feel like it would really have a very marginal impact on the tier overall. There are far more impactful things like Weavile, Latios and I think Heatran is lowkey broken and fairly impossible to answer as well. I haven't really seen anyone explain well exactly how banning Ninetales is going to free up the builder. Like, are you not gonna use Heatran, Tyranitar, Keldeo, and Latios anymore? If so, you do you but I just don't see it. Sun teams to me seem like a normal team that can win or lose and in many replays where I have seen sun it did not seem like anything overbearing that could not be managed. And like, if you can't deal with sun, there are still so many options to check the Pokemon used on sun in this tier, and some of these sun Pokemon bare in mind you have to check outside of sun too as they're used on other than sun teams like Slither Wing and Harc.
#banweavile
:lilligant_hisui: watching from the corner being mentioned in 0 posts while being a sleeper option to counter sun cteams.
True, without increasing the speed stat through stat changes, Chlorophyll H-Lilligant is probably the fastest thing in the format besides bs like Scarf Eleki, which is not real at all. Granted Skarm and Dirge are common but you often run H-Arc, Ninetales, Heatran, etc. so they're not too bad, and it does beat Hippo which a lot of people here basically say is fantastic into Sun so having something that at least threatens good damage into it is very nice. Surprised to not see it brought up more, its not like Venu is your only viable Chlorophyll sweeper after all.
just got reqs. it took me 103 games oml that's so embarrasing haha
either way. those 100+ games gave me a BIG chance to experience the meta. i used a torkoal team and my thoughts are:
DO NOT BAN NINETALES
either way. those 100+ games gave me a BIG chance to experience the meta. i used a torkoal team and my thoughts are:
DO NOT BAN NINETALES
- in 100+ games, only fought about 10 ninetales (uncentralized)
- torkoal > ninetales, 100%. idk why op says torkoal sits there and does nothing. imo it has WAY more utility than tales. excellent role compression. rocks, spin, lokix/weavile switch-in, bodypress sets smoke tyranitar (weather war advantage), all around physically defensive switchin, more longevity than ninetales (which is great for setting up multiple times through the same game)...
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Torkoal sucks ass as a rocker and even more as a spinner, and Ninetails is actually a deceptively good breaker under Sun with nasty plot, fire is not a common offensive stab so I feel like people rely on weak shit like Heatran or Slowking as the switch which get dropped by sands/solar Beam, hwish means a flareblitz spammer, weakened eruption pokemon or life orb chipped venu can come back, memento is fine as well for set up opportunities, fast wisp for exca and tar is good too, that shit also doesn't come into Weavile or kix, knock off the heatrock and it's back to the slums of ZU
Ban this hoe, way too many variations of it to account for, unfortunately I didn't really see too much sun so I can't speak first hand but just looking at the builder, something like tran + the fuckass Volcarona Paradox seems really hard to beat, plus I think the meta already has way too many easily splashable offensive threats to build for and limiting sun will help towards that, a little bit I think
I have achieved reqs in SV UU by using a Zarude Boss Team without Zarude.
I don't think Nineteales is banworthy. I think most people agree with that too. We seem to have this fixation sometimes that "something has to be done" and so we hyperfocus on getting rid of something to make things more convenient for us. That isn't the same thing as banning a problematic element of the metagame. The other issue that, since Smogon is so bureaucratic, the things that people more generally agree on banning (Heat Rock, Clay, etc.) can't be looked at until you waste everyone's time with a 2 week Ninetales suspect first, followed by about 4 more steps.
I faced like 1 Ninetales in 50 games, I faced way more A-Ninetales, more Torkoal teams, more TTar teams, etc. I don't even think Sun is a problem generally speaking, I think we just want one less thing to worry about which isn't how you're supposed to tier. And, even if you did get rid of Ninetales, that isn't even going to do much to the issue because everyone is just going to run Torkoal sun if they want to run sun teams. Yeah ok sure maybe Torkoal sun is "not as good", but based on all the Torkoal sun on the ladder I would confidently say it is at the very least "good enough" to be a reasonable swap that will keep people using Sun if they want to use Sun. Ninetales is clearly not the trendsetter here.
So yeah, DNB. If you want to actually examine problematic elements of the metagame, focus more on the bugs (Lokix + Slither), in particular Slither since it's pretty insane without Sun and removing it would actually make a significant dent in Sun teams whether they're Ninetales or Torkoal Sun teams. But generally speaking Sun is fine and there's enough moving parts to it that you aren't removing or debilitating that playstyle at all unless the thing you remove is Heat Rock.
I don't think Nineteales is banworthy. I think most people agree with that too. We seem to have this fixation sometimes that "something has to be done" and so we hyperfocus on getting rid of something to make things more convenient for us. That isn't the same thing as banning a problematic element of the metagame. The other issue that, since Smogon is so bureaucratic, the things that people more generally agree on banning (Heat Rock, Clay, etc.) can't be looked at until you waste everyone's time with a 2 week Ninetales suspect first, followed by about 4 more steps.
I faced like 1 Ninetales in 50 games, I faced way more A-Ninetales, more Torkoal teams, more TTar teams, etc. I don't even think Sun is a problem generally speaking, I think we just want one less thing to worry about which isn't how you're supposed to tier. And, even if you did get rid of Ninetales, that isn't even going to do much to the issue because everyone is just going to run Torkoal sun if they want to run sun teams. Yeah ok sure maybe Torkoal sun is "not as good", but based on all the Torkoal sun on the ladder I would confidently say it is at the very least "good enough" to be a reasonable swap that will keep people using Sun if they want to use Sun. Ninetales is clearly not the trendsetter here.
So yeah, DNB. If you want to actually examine problematic elements of the metagame, focus more on the bugs (Lokix + Slither), in particular Slither since it's pretty insane without Sun and removing it would actually make a significant dent in Sun teams whether they're Ninetales or Torkoal Sun teams. But generally speaking Sun is fine and there's enough moving parts to it that you aren't removing or debilitating that playstyle at all unless the thing you remove is Heat Rock.
Well, pretty sure this is my first Smogon post, and this also is my first time qualifying for a suspect test (did this yesterday but couldn't write the post until now).
Got reqs using solely this team (Credits to Lycopoky for like 95% of the team):
:Tyranitar::Excadrill::Skarmory::Sinistcha::Keldeo::Latios:
https://pokepast.es/ac8e1c992a2be115
Here are my thoughts on all of this:
Let's start with the (arguably) most important part, is sun broken?
Short answer: No, pretty sure this is already the consensus and I agree with it. It's a pretty limited archetype that wants to very specific mons that cover very specific roles, has some pretty bad matchups, including :tyranitar:and :heatran:which are quite common mons in the tier, and a lot of matchups that are at best even (people have already made extensive list of mons that deal with sun, won't make my own). That doesn't mean it's straight up bad or just a pure matchup fish, it has an incredible amount of immediate power as long as weather is up, and it's really punishing on opposing mistakes, this leads to the next point
Is there any other reason to ban sun?
Tiering policy states that pure statistical strength is not the only reason a ban may happen, something may be average or even weak but if it's deemed uncompetitive or unhealthy it may still receive action. Let's address both points.
First, competitiveness: This shouldn't be a debate, nothing about sun removes the skill aspect of the game, you may consider it easy to build and play, and even easy to lose to, but both the sun player and their opponent have room for outplays, mistakes, predictions, etc. And correct building decisions will come to matter in-game (even if the sun player generally has it easier in that department with how formulaic it is).
Second, (un)healthiness: This is by far the most subjective one and the only aspect I think you can make a reasonable argument for both sides. I can see why you could consider sun "cheap" or "cheesy", and it is true that it imposes some restriction in the builder. But at the same time you may just consider sun to be a honest archetype, and the limitations it adds to the builder reasonable.
I won't argue about the first aspect as it is mostly personal preference, but I will take my time to say that part of the skill expression in teambuilding is being able to assess threats and have a reliable response to them. Sun is a threat on the metagame, and it demands an answer, but so does Latios, or Keldeo, or Weavile, or even defensive pieces like Skarmory, if you don't take them into account you should expect to lose, or at least struggle, when you find them. Personally, I don't think sun brings an unreasonable level of restriction, especially when you consider it's not a single mon but a whole archetype.
Again, something being unhealthy is the most subjective point of discussion, and, as it has been previously mentioned in this thread, it is also the last resort for a ban, and should only be considered when there's a certainty that it will result on a better and more competitive playing experience.
I want to close this with one last subject: What would be the effects of a Ninetales ban?
Well... Not a lot. Sun would probably be slightly worse (when its strength isn't really the issue), it would lose access to some utility/disruption (healing wish and encore/wisp respectively) while being a bit bulkier with Torkoal taking some hits. If your issue is with the explosiveness of its abusers, that will still be there; if you don't like how easy it is to build, that arguably gets worse due to more limitation to the sun player. No real issue you can possibly have with sun would get solved by banning Ninetales, and I don't think we should start banning things just because some people "don't feel like having it in the tier" or because "it is a low impact ban" (especially considering this would affect lower tiers and their metagames, tho I'm no RU expert to say about the quality or impact of the change there)
In case it wasn't obvious, I'm voting Do Not Ban. I'm open to hearing pro-ban arguments, especially if there's something that I missed, wasn't clear enough about or even if I contradicted myself without noticing, but I'm pretty sure sun doesn't require any action and even if it did, banning Ninetales wouldn't be the move.
Got reqs using solely this team (Credits to Lycopoky for like 95% of the team):
:Tyranitar::Excadrill::Skarmory::Sinistcha::Keldeo::Latios:
https://pokepast.es/ac8e1c992a2be115
Here are my thoughts on all of this:
Let's start with the (arguably) most important part, is sun broken?
Short answer: No, pretty sure this is already the consensus and I agree with it. It's a pretty limited archetype that wants to very specific mons that cover very specific roles, has some pretty bad matchups, including :tyranitar:and :heatran:which are quite common mons in the tier, and a lot of matchups that are at best even (people have already made extensive list of mons that deal with sun, won't make my own). That doesn't mean it's straight up bad or just a pure matchup fish, it has an incredible amount of immediate power as long as weather is up, and it's really punishing on opposing mistakes, this leads to the next point
Is there any other reason to ban sun?
Tiering policy states that pure statistical strength is not the only reason a ban may happen, something may be average or even weak but if it's deemed uncompetitive or unhealthy it may still receive action. Let's address both points.
First, competitiveness: This shouldn't be a debate, nothing about sun removes the skill aspect of the game, you may consider it easy to build and play, and even easy to lose to, but both the sun player and their opponent have room for outplays, mistakes, predictions, etc. And correct building decisions will come to matter in-game (even if the sun player generally has it easier in that department with how formulaic it is).
Second, (un)healthiness: This is by far the most subjective one and the only aspect I think you can make a reasonable argument for both sides. I can see why you could consider sun "cheap" or "cheesy", and it is true that it imposes some restriction in the builder. But at the same time you may just consider sun to be a honest archetype, and the limitations it adds to the builder reasonable.
I won't argue about the first aspect as it is mostly personal preference, but I will take my time to say that part of the skill expression in teambuilding is being able to assess threats and have a reliable response to them. Sun is a threat on the metagame, and it demands an answer, but so does Latios, or Keldeo, or Weavile, or even defensive pieces like Skarmory, if you don't take them into account you should expect to lose, or at least struggle, when you find them. Personally, I don't think sun brings an unreasonable level of restriction, especially when you consider it's not a single mon but a whole archetype.
Again, something being unhealthy is the most subjective point of discussion, and, as it has been previously mentioned in this thread, it is also the last resort for a ban, and should only be considered when there's a certainty that it will result on a better and more competitive playing experience.
I want to close this with one last subject: What would be the effects of a Ninetales ban?
Well... Not a lot. Sun would probably be slightly worse (when its strength isn't really the issue), it would lose access to some utility/disruption (healing wish and encore/wisp respectively) while being a bit bulkier with Torkoal taking some hits. If your issue is with the explosiveness of its abusers, that will still be there; if you don't like how easy it is to build, that arguably gets worse due to more limitation to the sun player. No real issue you can possibly have with sun would get solved by banning Ninetales, and I don't think we should start banning things just because some people "don't feel like having it in the tier" or because "it is a low impact ban" (especially considering this would affect lower tiers and their metagames, tho I'm no RU expert to say about the quality or impact of the change there)
In case it wasn't obvious, I'm voting Do Not Ban. I'm open to hearing pro-ban arguments, especially if there's something that I missed, wasn't clear enough about or even if I contradicted myself without noticing, but I'm pretty sure sun doesn't require any action and even if it did, banning Ninetales wouldn't be the move.
Honestly originally I thought Slither should be suspect tested but Ninetales seemed like a bigger problem since it enables these threats much better, but my stance has changed back to Slither. Imo sun is perfectly fine (if you want to see my post and opinions look here) and doesn't need to be banned because it's not broken and it's also a bit inconsistent in my experience using it. Granted it could easily be because a lot of people are preparing for sun but this just makes banning it unnecessary imo.
Slither should be the target instead if Sun turns into a bigger problem down the line because it is very strong in the Sun and would harm Sun structures if it was banned. Scarf for speed control, AV to switch into special attackers and beat them, CB to turn into a nuclear bomb and Boots for hazard immunity, those are all valid items/sets it can use in the Sun, not to mention pivoting + First Impression is also very good and can generate/keep up momentum. Sure, Lokix can replace it, but let's not forget it's weak to the Sun (so stuff like Heatran and Talon are even stronger into you) and it wishes it could exactly replicate the amount of sets and damage Slither could easily achieve. Obviously i'm not going to go on about Slither because this is a Ninetales suspect test (and I don't think Slither Wing is bannable for now), but I do hope that if Sun gets another suspect Slither is instead the target.
Back to Ninetales, I didn't bring this up in my original post so i'll bring it up here, banning Ninetales will achieve very little, imo. Torkoal will easily just replace Ninetales, sure it is a worse option (and even I am willing to admit that) but its been proven by people in this thread that Torkoal works perfectly fine as an alternative and is (imo at least) even better than Ninetales IF you're running a bulkier Sun team, plus this doesn't address any of the actual threats that much. What about the nukes like Slither H-Arc? Or Chlorophyll Pokemon like Venu or H-Lilli? Teams will simply just adapt to Torkoal and use the same exact threats Ninetales enables, so we basically don't really achieve a lot by banning Ninetales, and I doubt that being forced to use a slightly worse setter is going to harm the playstyle that much.
One last thing, I know I brought it up in my original post but at the time I had doubts, but now I have 0 doubts about voting DNB, it's not a broken playstyle, building with Sun is not that easy since it gives you limited options to work with, there are a good chunk of already good and common Pokemon that help against Sun, and overall banning Ninetales is going to achieve very little. I'll give it where credit is due: It does have lots of powerful attackers along with fast and potent sweepers and H-Wish/Encore or Rocks/Spin support is nice, but you still need 1 mid Pokemon to actually set up Sun, and the Stealth Rock situation a lot of Sun teams have certainly doesn't help it.
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pretty much right, he missed that hilligant can also run healing wish and a surprise set that i use, upper hand
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