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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

With how short these regulations are, it probably would be better to just QB mons + potentially resuspect later, rather than going through the slow process of suspect tests in M-C. With this current regulation, I feel there were a large number of borderline broken Pokemon that we didn't really have time to address because of how debatable it was whether x or y threat was broken, which one was more broken, which one would have more of an impact on the metagame, etc. I think the Damp Rock suspect was pretty good move, but I think more bans needed to take place & back to back suspect tests would likely not have been the way to do it for a more temporary format - as we saw first hand with how bans were handled in DLC1 of SV.

This does have the drawback of leading to Pokemon that I personally find balanced to be banned (i.e. Ghold & Palafin imo were balanced compared to Hisuian Samurott or Blaziken) but it would lead for a more stabilized metagame sooner. We also can possibly introduce a Champions Uber format later down the line once there is a substantional enough banlist as well for players that wish to use these Pokemon in a well so no one is really left hanging.
 
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We are 3 days away from reg M-C, so I'll share my thoughts on M-B and what to do when M-C drops.

First of all, I know I'll be put on a cross for saying that, but I like current M-B. Yes, Hamu is strong. Yes, Raichu-Y is strong. Yes, it is centralized around Big 4 and a few megas. But I like it. I like building in this tier, I like playing the tier, and the better player wins. I have no issue with centralized tiers with limited pools of mons, and I am excited for reg M-C. I know that any mon that crosses 20% usage is seen as a ban target in modern Smogon, but I will defend this temporary meta.

Would I have pushed for a Hamurott suspect if M-B was all we would ever get in Champions OU? Yes. However, with M-C in the near future, I do not mind playing current M-B for a few more days, and I can say that I enjoyed M-B thoroughly. M-C will be a great time to shake up the status quo however, so here's a comprehensive list of what I would do given our current knowledge of what's coming in M-C.
  1. :salamence-mega: Quickban Mega Salamence. Like, do not even entertain the idea of an OU Mega Salamence. literally do not let it be legal for even a second, quickban it before M-C even drops on showdown, before people tell you to run Ice Shard Weavile to beat the Mega Rayquaza sidegrade.
  2. :baxcalibur::lucario-mega-z: The next two "most likely brokens". I would not quickban them literally right away, especially if we don't get Boots and Loaded Dice to help out Bax. However, I would keep a very close eye on them, and decide on a quickban 1 week into the meta, with potentially an unban later when the tier has stabilized.
  3. :rillaboom: I expect Grassy Terrain to be giga strong. Like, if we get Grassy Seed, Sneasler is an auto quickban, and Hawlucha might actually be top tier as well. So, I would keep it in mind.
  4. :samurott-hisui: Hamurott would be my first suspect test target, after a potential Bax/Mega Lucario Z quickban. Also, please make the suspect process faster. Regs last 2 to 3 months so we kind of need suspects to go by quickly if we want to keep up. The Damp Rock suspect lasted for 14 days of reqs + a few days of voting, which is way too long for Champions tiers.
  5. :raichu-mega-y: This Hamu suspect would be immediately followed by a Raichu-Y suspect.
 
fluff!! said:
We are 3 days away from reg M-C, so I'll share my thoughts on M-B and what to do when M-C drops.

First of all, I know I'll be put on a cross for saying that, but I like current M-B. Yes, Hamu is strong. Yes, Raichu-Y is strong. Yes, it is centralized around Big 4 and a few megas. But I like it. I like building in this tier, I like playing the tier, and the better player wins. I have no issue with centralized tiers with limited pools of mons, and I am excited for reg M-C. I know that any mon that crosses 20% usage is seen as a ban target in modern Smogon, but I will defend this temporary meta.

Would I have pushed for a Hamurott suspect if M-B was all we would ever get in Champions OU? Yes. However, with M-C in the near future, I do not mind playing current M-B for a few more days, and I can say that I enjoyed M-B thoroughly. M-C will be a great time to shake up the status quo however, so here's a comprehensive list of what I would do given our current knowledge of what's coming in M-C.
  1. :salamence-mega: Quickban Mega Salamence. Like, do not even entertain the idea of an OU Mega Salamence. literally do not let it be legal for even a second, quickban it before M-C even drops on showdown, before people tell you to run Ice Shard Weavile to beat the Mega Rayquaza sidegrade.
  2. :baxcalibur::lucario-mega-z: The next two "most likely brokens". I would not quickban them literally right away, especially if we don't get Boots and Loaded Dice to help out Bax. However, I would keep a very close eye on them, and decide on a quickban 1 week into the meta, with potentially an unban later when the tier has stabilized.
  3. :rillaboom: I expect Grassy Terrain to be giga strong. Like, if we get Grassy Seed, Sneasler is an auto quickban, and Hawlucha might actually be top tier as well. So, I would keep it in mind.
  4. :samurott-hisui: Hamurott would be my first suspect test target, after a potential Bax/Mega Lucario Z quickban. Also, please make the suspect process faster. Regs last 2 to 3 months so we kind of need suspects to go by quickly if we want to keep up. The Damp Rock suspect lasted for 14 days of reqs + a few days of voting, which is way too long for Champions tiers.
  5. :raichu-mega-y: This Hamu suspect would be immediately followed by a Raichu-Y suspect.
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Nah let Salamence be legal for 24-48 hours, please lets not run into the annoying issue of either a Regieleki situation or a situation where newgens are like "omg its not that broken we dont even know".

I agree with the rest but would also like to add :indeedee: as being a great HO enabler

Indeedee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Level: 50
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 13 HP / 32 SpA / 21 Spe
Timid Nature
- Expanding Force
- Hyper Voice
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam

With this spread, you outspeed the Z megas and are especially good at (revenge) killing Abzol or Dragapult with Dazzling Gleam and nuke Zario with Expanding Force. Outside of his own damage, Psychic Terrain pairs excellently with the likes of :alakazam-mega:, :raichu-mega-y:, :dragapult: and :weavile: as the lack of priority makes them escape their usual checks like Kingambit, Hamu and Mach Punch/Vaccuum Wave users. Depending on team style and overall meta, a different set that invests more into bulk and holds the Terrain Extender maybe perform better.
 
Kallum said:
Nah let Salamence be legal for 24-48 hours, please lets not run into the annoying issue of either a Regieleki situation or a situation where newgens are like "omg its not that broken we dont even know
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There’s literally nothing to be gained from wasting time on an obvious broken. There is nothing in current Champions nor is there anything they could possibly add in M-C that would remotely make it tolerable.

(What even is a “regieleki situation”?)
 
Moyashi said:
There’s literally nothing to be gained from wasting time on an obvious broken. There is nothing in current Champions nor is there anything they could possibly add in M-C that would remotely make it tolerable.

(What even is a “regieleki situation”?)
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they are referencing how regieleki was banned before the discovery that transistor was 1.3x instead of 1.5x so the ban was slightly unjustified.

mega salamence is in a different league to regieleki. it's prob outrageous that mega mence doesn't get banned the first picosecond of champions OU as long as it has some type of flying stab+roost there is no arguement for it being slightly justifiable in OU. Mega salamence has ridiculous physical bulk, for example adamant hrott glasses sucker punch does 30-38%, gambit glasses 5 allies fainted does 47-56% to 0 bulk mega mence. Mixed mence always there to destroy corv & rotom wash. I can entertain the idea that mence will be legal for a day maybe but that monster is not lasting.

Kallum said:
Nah let Salamence be legal for 24-48 hours, please lets not run into the annoying issue of either a Regieleki situation or a situation where newgens are like "omg its not that broken we dont even know".

I agree with the rest but would also like to add :indeedee: as being a great HO enabler

Indeedee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Level: 50
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 13 HP / 32 SpA / 21 Spe
Timid Nature
- Expanding Force
- Hyper Voice
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam

With this spread, you outspeed the Z megas and are especially good at (revenge) killing Abzol or Dragapult with Dazzling Gleam and nuke Zario with Expanding Force. Outside of his own damage, Psychic Terrain pairs excellently with the likes of :alakazam-mega:, :raichu-mega-y:, :dragapult: and :weavile: as the lack of priority makes them escape their usual checks like Kingambit, Hamu and Mach Punch/Vaccuum Wave users. Depending on team style and overall meta, a different set that invests more into bulk and holds the Terrain Extender maybe perform better.
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cool idea with indeedee, scarf indeedee's always something i like. maybe not very practical since indeedee is not really a great pokemon to justify no extender on. mega zam and friends will go stupid with this
 
Hopefully Mega Sala will be banned before it even sees the light of day. It's one of those Pokémon that will never end up in OU because of the Absurde Power this Thing has.

Baxcalibur will be Most Likely Quickbanned after a Few Days because how Broken he is in Snow/Auroraveil Teams even if there are no Boots/Loaded Dice. Dragon Dance 3 Attack will be Enough to Crush Most Defensive Mons in the Tier. (And It will Be even More Broken if Loaded Dice/Boots Get's Added).

Mega Lucario Z is in My Opinion not as Strong as the Normal Mega Lucario is, and atleast for Now i don't Think that Mega Lucario Z is Quickban Worthy, But we will See.

But i Like it that in this Metagame there are No Legendary's, Paradox Pokemon etc , it's Refreshing but I Hope there will Be Considerd More Action against Pokemon Like Hamurott, Raichu Y or Blaiziken
 
Moyashi said:
There’s literally nothing to be gained from wasting time on an obvious broken. There is nothing in current Champions nor is there anything they could possibly add in M-C that would remotely make it tolerable.

(What even is a “regieleki situation”?)
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When a mon is in Ubers despite being mangeable in OU and heck, below, I'm not saying Mega Salamence is anywhere close to Eleki, but its simply a cruel thing to rob any non-legendary of their 24 hour reign.
 
Mega mence likely will be Qb'd but there isn't any harm in letting it stay legal for a day or 2. If nothing else, they mon will completely obliterate G-terrain cheese that's gonna infest the meta with mons like Blaziken, Sneasler, Rillaboom + it could be argued that there is more counterplay available now than when it was legal in ORAS, with mons like Scarf Meow, BU Corv, Ice Shard Bax, and a few other checks like Shuca Archaludon. This probably won't be enough in practice, but I think it'll be good to see for ourselves.

I am thinking this mon will likely be best on Balance teams as a breaker, Wincon, and defensive piece vs misc threats like Blaziken and Volcarona that are difficult to handle otherwise. Likely will run Double Edge as its standard Flying STAB, but I think Facade has a lot of potentional as well to eliminate burn as counterplay & mimic how those mono-attacking refresh sets functioned in ORAS.

Other probable QB targets after mega mence:
- :Rillaboom: G-terrain enables a lot of cheese with various LO breakers + removing eq weakness. Benefits several pokemon that are already straddling the edge like Sneasler, Blaziken, Charizard X, and more. Even if the mon itself is easily walled (which might not even be true if it gets back superpower), what it enables with G-Terrain is the issue. It may be better to just remove it.
- :Sneasler: If seeds are added, this Pokemon likely goes over the edge. That said, I think an argument could be made that this Pokemon's standard counterplay like Gking (though you need def investment now for Acrobatics), a potentially buffed Gliscor, Hippowdown, and Aegislash would still work fine even with a terrain boost. In SV, I feel what pushed it over the edge was moreso Tera since that let it grab the SD boost + boost in its coverage BP to bypass its counterplay. You still will likely be able to get the SD boost more easily now thanks to the initial speed + bulk investment you are now able to run + gseed & EQ damage reduction, but you aren't able to immediately blow up or bypass your counters.
- :Floette-Mega: / :Raichu-Mega Y: So both these Pokemon likely become more managable in the next update thanks to Rilla priority, but even still, I just find these two to be insanely restrictive forces in the builder that require very specific answers - namely, spdef Ground-types in Raichu's case and mostly just Gking / Toxapex in Floette's case, maybe spdef Excadrill (that you can't use to answer Raichu lol). In battle, you can argue these Pokemon aren't that oppresive because of their flaws like hazard vulnerability & poor bulk in Raichu's case & they are both quite fun and unique Pokemon to use, but unless we get a mon like Clodsire in the next update, I think axing these Pokemon would open up builder significantly.
- :Baxcalibur: / :Baxcalibur-Mega: Obviously keep an eye out for these Pokemon, though with no boots, Veil being limited to 5 turns, and no dice, I think you could argue it is more managable. Scizor also is a solid check this Pokemon with Roost now, though I'm not sure its enough. The lack of Tera also reduces its setup oppurtunities compared to SV, tho it likely can find quite a few vs staples like Gking.
- :Gliscor: This mostly depends on if Toxic Orb is added. If it is, I think this Pokemon becomes an obvious issue, centralizing the metagame even more around itself and Corviknight.
 
I think :Blaziken: Blaziken might be a sleeper broken pokemon in this new reg. It already kinda is, whether its SD 3 attacks or Protect to get the gaurenteed Speed Boosts. Blaziken's counterplay is often simply "I'll let it wear itself down with Life Orb chip or Flare Blitz recoil" rather than truely, reliably, defensively checking it. You often have to guess its set right. I wouldn't say its the most broken Pokemon rn, or even top 3, but it's one of the most constraining forces in the meta.

Blaziken is a lesser threat in the SV OU meta, but has historically shown to be a decent choice on Grassy Terrain HO teams. On these teams it can run a bulkier set with Leftovers to capitalise on Protect + Grassy Terrain healing. Very shortly, Rillaboom will be unleashed into Champions OU and Blaziken can be back to its old tricks again. https://pokepast.es/7fe447bdae250794 A basic guess of what it can pull off.

A world where Blaziken is no longer super frail and killing itself very rapidly may be upon us. I must say it is likely that we get atleast some new counterplay for Blaziken in the new pokemon releasing tomorrow, (Praying for Alomomola) but that is entirely up to speculation. All I can say is expect Blaziken to be even stonger for the time being.
Kallum said:
When a mon is in Ubers despite being mangeable in OU and heck, below, I'm not saying Mega Salamence is anywhere close to Eleki, but its simply a cruel thing to rob any non-legendary of their 24 hour reign.
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Also this straight up makes no sense to me. Why does it matter if its a Legendary or not, thats completely irrelevent. In fact, I think that no Pokemon that has historically not only been Ubers but S TIER(!!!) in Ubers should be allowed to step foot in this meta. Mega Salamence is in a different caliber than even pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Metagross. It should be quickbanned the millisecond we learn that they didn't remove its entire movepool or something.
 
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Magcargo said:
it could be argued that there is more counterplay available now than when it was legal in ORAS, with mons like Scarf Meow, BU Corv, Ice Shard Bax, and a few other checks like Shuca Archaludon. This probably won't be enough in practice, but I think it'll be good to see for ourselves.
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I don’t think you’d ever have the justification to run BU Corv in this tier when defog is needed too badly, plus it gets torched by variants that load fire coverage (which it also did for skarm back in the day). Shuca Arch would be valid if Arch was worth a team slot outside rain but it’s a super mediocre pokemon outside rain. And I don’t think people want to be back in the mega blastoise days of needing to run scarf meow to not auto lose to Mega Mence.

I dunno. I just think it’d be a waste of meta development time to let something this known broken out of its cage.
 
Moyashi said:
I don’t think you’d ever have the justification to run BU Corv in this tier when defog is needed too badly, plus it gets torched by variants that load fire coverage (which it also did for skarm back in the day). Shuca Arch would be valid if Arch was worth a team slot outside rain but it’s a super mediocre pokemon outside rain. And I don’t think people want to be back in the mega blastoise days of needing to run scarf meow to not auto lose to Mega Mence.

I dunno. I just think it’d be a waste of meta development time to let something this known broken out of its cage.
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I agree, your basically scheduling a ban as opposed to just quick banning the Mon outright, all the Calcs and test have already been done (not that they even needed to be done this mega sala is a Ubers Mon through and through) can’t imagine many people seeing that Mon be legal for two days and not deciding to not champion OU for those two or so days and then play the actual meta once it’s been banned as it should be.

I could be wrong the addition of the new megas and other mons + the item roster could somehow (probably not) create a situation where mega sala would like a OU mon (delusion).
 
Moyashi said:
I don’t think you’d ever have the justification to run BU Corv in this tier when defog is needed too badly, plus it gets torched by variants that load fire coverage (which it also did for skarm back in the day). Shuca Arch would be valid if Arch was worth a team slot outside rain but it’s a super mediocre pokemon outside rain. And I don’t think people want to be back in the mega blastoise days of needing to run scarf meow to not auto lose to Mega Mence.

I dunno. I just think it’d be a waste of meta development time to let something this known broken out of its cage.
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You'd be running Bulk Up / Defog / Brave Bird / Roost on Corv. The point about Fire coverage is valid, though you'd be sacrificing a few other key MUs if you run that so its not totally free. As for arch, that mon is genuinely annoying - most non-exca / Hippo teams don't like switching to it since it can Corv / Chomp / Clefable for super effective damage, while gking doesn't do much back. I imagine in rillaboom meta it will be even better.

IDK for me as a general ladderer, there have been like - 20 broken mons that you need to stack checks just to handle: :Volcarona:, :Blaziken:, :Charizard-Mega X:, :Ceruledge:, :Delphox:, :Samurott-Hisui:, :Dragapult:, :Floette-Mega:, :Raichu-Mega Y: and many more. This need to stack multiple Waters / Dragons to handle the broken af Fire-Types (which aren't even guarenteed to work), multiple Steels / Poisons to handle Floette / Mega Meganium / Clefable just leads to a shitty state where you can't feasibly cover everything - you just become more weak to one style or another if you do. The metagame is in such a dire state that I honestly don't think Mega Salamence will have a comparatively negative impact. Sure, its a calibur above the aforementioned brokens, but at the very least it serves as a check to most of them as well - with its speed letting it handle Floette & Mega Meganium as well. I think there is a valid enough point to see whether a mon that can blanket these aforementioned threats is worth keeping around - at least for a couple of days while the novelty lasts.
 
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With DLC2 just a couple hours away, I ran a couple test games using expected + predicted additions, and while a lot is unclear, both :sneasler: and :rocky_helmet: are great, the latter of which I saw great performance on with TankChomp, helped punish weaker physical moves and pivots even more than before.

/challenge gen9championsou @@@ +cinderace, +rillaboom, +Inteleon, +absol, +baxcalibur, +golisopod, +absol-mega-z, +baxcalibur-mega, +baxcalibrite, +golisopod-mega, +golisopite, +lucario-mega-z, +salamence, +salamence-mega, +salamencite, +indeedee, +pincurchin, +weezing-galar, +electric seed, +grassy seed, +misty seed, +psychic seed, +terrain extender, +black sludge, +rocky helmet, +assault vest, +absolite z, +lucarionite z, +garchompite z, +garchomp-mega-z, +glaive rush, +strange steam, +court change, +pyro ball, +snipe shot, +drum beating

Sneasler is going to be a very annoying menace, as its very splashable on both rilla balance and indeedee psyspam HO due to the very high expectation of seeds coming alongside the DLC Pokémon. But in the time where it has its week or so before a QB, due to stronger Pokémon occupying the councils attention, :absol-mega-z: is a pretty solid answer-ish, as with proper bulk investment I was able to live both a Dire Claw and Throat Chop from adamant Sneasler and then countering with either Bounce (yes this is insane but honestly there is very little that can switch in outside of Corv) or Shadow Claw + Sneak. The biggest danger here is getting slept or full para'd.

Overall, especially if the items are remotely as good as we hope (Helmet, Sludge, AV), we will get to enjoy a great format once the council takes their needed action combined with the Premiere League players bring their metagame innovation. Good night or rest of your day to everyone waiting for DLC2!
 
Helmet is gonna be an amazing tool for bulkier teams to punish greedy physical offense, especially with hazards backing it up. Corv and Chomp are undoubtedly the best standout users of the item, but I think Chesnaught, Hatterene and even Toxapex and Galar Slowking can make good use of the item. Oh and Hydrapple too.

As far as mons go, most of these aren’t great outside the megas, but Cinderace is a very appreciated addition. I’ll also throw out that base Mence can probably get some viability since it is a great Blaziken check, and can check Excadrill decently.
 
Mega Mence kept all its best moves btw (double edge, tailwind (doubles), hyper voice, facade). So uh… yeah let’s leave that demon in its cage please.

On another note, Mega Golisopod getting to keep U-Turn is huge. That’ll be fun to experiment with. I do wonder what the best set for it could be though.
 
 
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AmbientDinosaur said:
Any notable movepool additions/changes?
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Grapploct kept Storm Throw and Mach Punch fron ZA, so it can actually deal damage now & check Pokemon such as Bax and Samu. Unfortunately it did not keep Knock off, but Brutal Swing at least is decently strong still.

Archaludon lost Metal Burst and Mirror Coat which is bad for Sturdy sets.

Wigglytuff got Moonblast and Nasty Plot so you can maybe suffer a bit less when using it.

Pincurchin got Rising Voltage back from Sword and shield so it can deal actual damage now.

Rillaboom got Superpower back to blow past Corviknight with SD sets.

Inteleon gets Focus Energy back so it doesn't need to gamble with raw scope lens snipe shot.

Perrserker gets spikes and T wave for utility.

Toxtrocity low key gets parabolic charge now for niche recovery option.
 
4G3NT CROISSANT said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2677962169 First game with Pod, we're in for it

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2677967514-ooqo8fiqvqvycovjwy83efsvsiflsyhpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2677969840-g176mcubq4dp0lftwefcyluvuvdmynqpw
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Wow. I'm so proud of Pod . All it needed was literally any good ability Game Freak. Lowkey, Mega Pod is strong asf. It's movepool is so good, 3 freaking priority moves is nuts especially with Tough Claws is awesome. Doing 30-40 to Corv whether it's SpD or Def is good. Love it. Mega Pod is Ou for sure. I don't see Mega Mance being a problem so far even though it did so much to Clef, but Clef lowkey ate up ngl
 
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https://pokepast.es/f8073ce3b465e3a8

Been running this for a few games and it is pretty fun, though I am finding Dragapult to be a difficult MU. Grapploct has been incredibly fun as breaker, mon deals insane damage with Storm Throw. That said, perhaps running Gambit over it may be the play to handle Dragapult. A more reliable check to Quaquaval might also be a smart investment. I think mence can run more bulk asw.

Haven't been really feeling bax, but Ice Shard Util is nice.
 
Naughty Mega Salamence HO :salamence-mega: :glimmora: :samurott-hisui: :volcarona: :kingambit: :dragapult:

Mega Salamence is easily broken and should be QB'd ASAP. Corviknight isn't even a check since Fire Blast can 2HKO uninvested frrom Mega Salamence. If you try to pressure stall it, then Mega Salamence can just boost again and 2HKO with +2 Double Edge instead. It also has absurd coverage; Earthquake hits other Steel-types harder, Facade punishes status from Rotom-W (turning it into setup fodder), Dragon Claw is neat versus defensive Garchomp (especially those that run Rocky Helmet now so you don't lose almost all your health clicking Double Edge instead), Roost is neat longevity against opposing HO, I could carry on. Even against Stall teams this guy is a menace since Unaware Clefable gets 2HKO'd by Double Edge anyways.

Rest of the team is pretty standard though. Double lead is nice to punish Slowking-G trying to anti lead Glimmora, and Hisuian Samurott is decent at imposter proofing. Sacred Sword is kinda needed for Baxcalibur though. Red Card Glimmora is funny into opposing Poltergeist users and punishes Hawlucha and Sneasler pretty nicely, latter getting checked harder by Colbur Dragapult who also helps paralyse Mega Floette. Volcarona is our Fire-type and Kingambit has priority.
 
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