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★ VGC Reg M-C Metagame Discussion Thread

I do want to talk about Volcarona and why I think it's positioned really well in the format, as someone who is using it.

Looking at the new additions, Volcarona heavily benefits from Rillaboom being added. Not just because it answers it so well, but because it also gives Volcarona good synergy since it deals with Rock and Water types that threaten Volc, not to mention if you want to use QD, with Grassy Terrain Giga Drain can pack more of a punch and you get more reliable recovery anyway, along with Fake Out support. Not to mention Rillaboom also nerfs Sand and Water-types, 2 of Volcarona's main threats, while buffing Sneasler and creating the Rilla/Sneasler duo, one duo that Volcarona farms.
Unfortunately Mence is horrible for Volc, it OHKO's with Double Edge, best case scenario 2HKO's Volc and can even OHKO with a bit of chip with Hyper Voice, and it's another Tailwind setter.
As for the more niche stuff, it's not that good into Bax, though it does beat Lucario-Z.
As for the items, Rocky Helmet's chip helps it's redirection role a lot more and guarantees that Pokemon that make contact will be punished, and Grassy Seed gives it extra physical bulk which can be really nice since it patches up it's main weakness and makes it pretty bulky.

Let's look at the list of Pokemon Volcarona can help beat:
Kingambit, Non-Rock Slide Garchomp, Whimsicott, Sneasler, Rillaboom, Venusaur, Gholdengo, Archaludon (if you can keep Rain away from it), M-Froslass, Grimmsnarl, and M-Scovillain. Rest are niche picks, even though some of these are niche picks they are common enough to where it will matter.
And in spite of being weak to some of them, it can also burn Basculegion, anything that clicks Fake Out (except Incineroar), M-Swampert, and Physical Dnite.
This is a very solid list of Pokemon that Volc can potentially help against, and the rise of Rillaboom means that there will be games where it gets reliable recovery that can maybe allow it to redirect for longer, even if Rilla isn't on the team. Obviously there's notable weaknesses, Rock Slide is a major problem and it's poor Rain and Sand matchups are definitely not great, not to mention being a supportive Fire-type it may compete with Incineroar and (M-)Scovillain.

What I use is Rage Powder/Fiery Dance or Overheat/Bug Buzz or Tailwind/Protect with 28 HP / 25+ Def / 4 SpA / 9 Spe (iirc survives LO Chomp Rock Slide and outspeeds even Timid Peli). A redirector with Flame Body is very useful but there were times where I heavily appreciated it's offence, mainly into Rillaboom and Gambit; and when I didn't need it's offence, utility in Tailwind and Wisp are enough. With the Sitrus Berry it can last for quite a while and protect Pokemon from incoming attacks.
As a side note, I could also see Rocky Helmet, Leftovers, or even Grassy Seed be good with Volcarona.

Now, will Volcarona be much better in Reg M-C? Imo yes, but this post can age poorly, now are there flaws i'm forgetting? Probably. But I just want to talk about Volcarona and why I think it will be much better, and so far using it has felt very good. I think it's notable in balance teams for it's role compression as a redirector with Tailwind and good offensive presence, and being able to answer threats like the ones I addressed above are all really valuable.
 
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Rillaboom and Sinistcha is a great supportive duo I've liked using with a tanky Pokemon in the past. Together, they not only provide a bunch of healing, but also Fake-Out disruption, Rage Powder redirection, Trick Room if needed, and powered up Matcha Gatchas, which can hit a lot harder than you think. I'm not too confident the pairing will find it's way in the top meta teams, but if you're a fan of tanks, like Mega Aggron, this is a pretty good time to use them again.

Mega Chesnaught in particular is one that really benefits from Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain, not just because its a Grass type, but also because it learns both Grassy Glide and Belly Drum. Of course, to play Chesnaught with the duo would mean tripling up on Grass types, and Chesnaught has the type disadvantage against Charizard, Floette, Sneasler, and more, so don't expect it to suddenly become a big threat. At least you'll get some fun replays with it.
 
A set I've been running lately

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate (Aerilate)
Level: 50
EVs: 31 HP / 14 Atk / 6 SpD / 15 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
- Roost

The set that won worlds 2018, it's still very threatening now. EVs let it outurn nuetral natured base 102s and OHKO bulkless Mega Floette before setup, with the rest in bulk. Pairs well with strong Ground and Fighting types to get around the bulky Rock and Steel types that resist Flying (not many Electric types, and most of the few there are take heavy damage from Double-Edge. With its great overall bulk, being able to tank its attacks isn't necessarily enough, and finding space to set up isn't hard. Especially with common Pokemon like Sneasler, Basculegion, and Rillaboom giving you plenty of opportunities.
 
I finally got to play some games against Rillaboom and I already hate the stupid monkey. It has every tool and slows down the battle because everything gets healed at the end of each turn and they still haven't sped up Leftovers recovery and whatnot.

How did this thing avoid being whacked repeatedly by the nerf bat.
 
I actually don’t think Rillaboom’s that strong. It gets destroyed by so much - Sneasler, Kingambit, Zard-Y, Salamence, Archaludon, M-Golisopod, M-Staraptor, Baxcalibur, Incineroar…

It really misses the Assault Vest as well. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still a good choice, it’s just nowhere near as good as it used to be.
 
I think Rillaboom is at it's most balanced in this regulation. Compare to all the other times where it was a pain to deal with, it feels balanced due to the mega pokemon doing huge damage. Without assault vest it's weaker but not as weak. It still checks bulky water, ground and rock types but it has to worry about keeping terrain and not dying to any megas like Frosslass, Metagross, Delphox Salamence and Floette.
 
The Salt Cure nerf was a crazy stray in hindsight. Garganacl actually seems pretty well positioned in this format - it is really tough for Mega Mence to take out, has Body Press to check Gambit, can Wide Guard all over various attackers and PsySpam, and it has no 4* weaknesses and decent bulk to live all manor of Super Effective moves that don't have crazy stats backing them.

Buuuut nope, Salt Cure is close to useless as a dedicated solution to tricky opponents. Not having Tera already makes it much more difficult to actually land a Salt Cure on an opposing Water or Steel type without taking too unfavorable a trade, but the reward being so small is really crippling. It doesn't even let Garganacl beat bulky Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain - if you get the read of landing Salt Cure while it predicts your Wide Guard and doesn't Make it Rain or Protect, it can still scale Shadow Ball fast enough with Nasty Plot to finish a battle before having to fear death by pickling.

I'm still curious to try it out as a bulky attacker, but it is utterly bizarre to lock in Clear Body and Stone Edge on this mon. I miss Gigalith...

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All of this is to say, here's my set of shotgun metagame calls. Mega Salamence and Mega Floette are going to run this format. Mega Gardevoir in Psychic Terrain is probably even more powerful than both of them when uncontested, but Rillaboom's presence caps its potential. Mega Froslass will probably be the best second string choice, with Delphox, Tyranitar, and Rain Goobers a bit behind. I can't confidently say other Mega Evolutions will be useless, but I think a team without one of the aforementioned picks is going to be straightforwardly unoptimal. Glimmora and Arcanine-Hisui will become popular enough the whatever standard team style comes to the forefront will randomly tech Earthquake somewhere.
 
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This is my second time shilling :gholdengo: in this thread in the span of less than a week, but I think this guy is really eating good currently.

Speed Unburden Sneasler is kinda public enemy number one currently and Dengo is not only immune to everything sans Throat Chop from Sneasler, but can also Nasty Plot in the fact of Indeedee or Rillaboom.

It also makes Mence and Pod setup food which is already impressive on its own right, but it also does so without being pinned by their partnered Sneasler unlike Kingambit.

In addition, it’s just a fantastic user of Grassy Seed itself, being able to eat basically any hit. It has been consistently getting NP and multiple rounds of MIR per game when in MB it struggled to get even one.
 
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Is Salamence / Floette / Rilla / Incin + 2 the new Big 4? :blobglare: Possibly.

I've seen a somewhat decent success from people using Lucario Z but I can't quite seem to find if it has a standard set on it. From what I saw there's usually a Rilla partner (makes sense, Earthquake is the one physical move that is not contact), but I've seen it not even run Flash Cannon opting for Aura Sphere + Dark Pulse + Setup + Protect in the few videos I've ran into. Feels a bit weird to me, I'd have thought one reason to run it would have been that it can outspeed and threaten Floette, but instead people opt to get walled by it.
 
As someone who managed place 12th in a tournament of 60 people, and managed to place over 2000 points on the cartridge ladder, I think Aegislash is a Pokemon that has gotten better with the introductions of terrains: Here is the set I have been using.

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 1 Def / 15 SpA / 7 SpD / 11 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield
- Wide Guard

The SPs let you live a Modest LO Gholdengo Shadow Ball 100% of the time. What makes Aegislash really valuable is how it completely shuts down Pokemon like Gardevoir + Indeedee + Sneasler and Rillaboom + Salamence + Sneasler. In fact, it competely walls Sneasler and Gardevoir under certain movesets. I think Aegislash needs the LO to pick up 2HKOEs, and I think what separates it from Gholdengo is Wide Guard, allowing the team to manage around Expanding Force, Blizzard, and Earthquake and the like.
 
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DreamPrince said:
As someone who managed place 12th in a tournament of 60 people, and managed to place over 2000 points on the cartridge ladder, I think Aegislash is a Pokemon that has gotten better with the introductions of terrains: Aegislash! Here is the set I have been using.

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 1 Def / 15 SpA / 7 SpD / 11 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield
- Wide Guard

The SPs let you live a Modest LO Gholdengo Shadow Ball 100% of the time. What makes Aegislash really valuable is how it completely shuts down Pokemon like Gardevoir + Indeedee + Sneasler and Rillaboom + Salamence + Sneasler. In fact, it competely walls Sneasler and Gardevoir under certain movesets. I think Aegislash needs the LO to pick up 2HKOEs, and I think what separates it from Gholdengo is Wide Guard, allowing the team to manage around Expanding Force, Blizzard, and Earthquake and the like.
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I'm curious what the speed investment is for.
 
For everyone who notices this, please note that this is my opinion on the meta for THE FIRST WEEK. Some of you may disagree but it's understandable. Please and thank you.
 

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Busterbunner said:
For everyone who notices this, please note that this is my opinion on the meta for THE FIRST WEEK. Some of you may disagree but it's understandable. Please and thank you.
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My thoughts on a few placements:
  • I think Zard Y will still be very good but I'm not sure it will be able to retain an S rank. If Mence ends up S rank (very likely) that puts even more pressure on Zard due to the bad matchup, plus if Chomp Z is good it'll be running Power Gem and that's just another assassin running around.
  • This is just vibes atm but Staraptor feels way easier to deal with than before. It hates hates hates Mence and also catches strays from some anti-Mence tech that will likely be common. Plus it has to contend with Psyspam, which will gleefully spam double Expanding Force into Raptor to kill it through defensive boosts (if it gets any) and possibly throw up Trick Room to make it more useless.
  • Froslass is being undervalued as one of the better Mence answers. Not all Mence are running max Speed so you can easily creep for that, and Lass doesn't care which version is being run since it never dies to anything (thanks Snow bulk) and Blizzard always OHKOs. Mence has to be given Coaching and win a speed tie to OHKO.
 
Karxrida said:
My thoughts on a few placements:
  • I think Zard Y will still be very good but I'm not sure it will be able to retain an S rank. If Mence ends up S rank (very likely) that puts even more pressure on Zard due to the bad matchup, plus if Chomp Z is good it'll be running Power Gem and that's just another assassin running around.
  • This is just vibes atm but Staraptor feels way easier to deal with than before. It hates hates hates Mence and also catches strays from some anti-Mence tech that will likely be common. Plus it has to contend with Psyspam, which will gleefully spam double Expanding Force into Raptor to kill it through defensive boosts (if it gets any) and possibly throw up Trick Room to make it more useless.
  • Froslass is being undervalued as one of the better Mence answers. Not all Mence are running max Speed so you can easily creep for that, and Lass doesn't care which version is being run since it never dies to anything (thanks Snow bulk) and Blizzard always OHKOs. Mence has to be given Coaching and win a speed tie to OHKO.
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You're right on the Staraptor part. It's good but it just not doing enough to survive psypam.

The only reason why Frosslass is still in B tier in my eyes is due how easy it is to hit cuz of instant tailwind on any good mega, or Mega Delphox, Golisipod and Metagross getting a chance to ohko. Other than that, it is a good check to Salamence
 
Busterbunner said:
You're right on the Staraptor part. It's good but it just not doing enough to survive psypam.

The only reason why Frosslass is still in B tier in my eyes is due how easy it is to hit cuz of instant tailwind on any mega, or Mega Delphox, Golisipod and Metagross getting a chance to ohko. Other than that, it is a good check to Salamence
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I think mabye the problem is that your rating mega Delphox too high

It’s kinda just a yard downgrade tbh
 
I'm not sure how to rank Delphox. It has a better matchup into Mence than Zard Y but its use into Psyspam is. Questionable? Like ignoring its inability to abuse Expanding Force, I'm pretty sure Psyspam tends to run a couple things that are positive into Delphox. I even saw a Kingambit being used last time I fought Psyspam, and Delphox doesn't get the priority immunity to dodge Sucker Punch. Staraptor being worse also makes the Starphox comp worse. However, Delphox does love Rillaboom both as a partner to take care of Water-types and even as an enemy, possibly even more than Zard Y.

As an aside, I love Starphox as a team name lol. Never got a chance to state it before.
 
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I find that Ghost types in have been eating good this format.

:gholdengo::aegislash::Basculegion::gengar-mega::Froslass-mega:

I find these guys super easy to slap on teams because they can do their jobs while ignoring Fake Out cycling that is so prominent currently, while taking minimal damage from Sneasler lacking Throat Chop. The fact that it’s more easy than ever to slap on a team your own Sneasler (often with Indd or Rillaboom) also makes the Kingambit weakness that much easier to deal with.

The first 2 take advantage of the fact that many Rilla are not running HHP currently to completely deny both Rilla/Sneasler and Indd/Sneasler which every other team seems to be running.

Basc I initially thought would be worse with so many Rilla running around, but it pairs so good with Indd/Sneasler which, with good play, can often pressure Rilla into a position where it has to trade itself for Basc, if at all. Just the fact that its a good TailRoom mon and TailRoom is good atm makes it really good.

Froslass I completely underestimated at the start of the format but it’s honestly incredible at the moment. Evertime a Rilla/Sneasler/Mence team shows up you can kinda just lead Froslass with HArc or Sneasler and spam Blizzard, and end up with a massive advantage by the time Froslass goes down. HArc being as good as it is now means that even if ZardY or Golisopod shows up, you make it really really uncomfortable for them to come in. Veil + Grassy Terrain also just makes setting up with the rest of the team so easy.

Gengar is still an acquired taste, but it turns Rilla/Sneasler into a liability, turns Indd/Sneasler into Rilla food, can Disable Pod, and can Perish Trap better than ever with the availability of Eject Pack and Red Card. Still trying to work out a team for this though.
 
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