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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

RyukTheDarkrai said:
y'know as silly as this sounds with all the talk of terrain wouldn't that mean the seeds should be banned?
i'm probably wrong here but like there's sneasler in terrain and blaziken in terrain and hawlucha in terrain and maybe even baxcalibur in terrain
it's not an 'every pokemon under terrain is broken' sort of thing but like you guys get what i'm getting at right
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Seed is not the only issue. Its the fact that a lot of these Pokemon are removing their EQ weakness + gaining passive recovery healing via Terrain.

Now granted, this healing does go both ways and help pokemon like Spdef chomp, Gking, and Toxapex check more threats as well + get the passive healing, but mons like Blaziken, Sneasler, Zard X, and Bax use it best to offset entry hazard / LO chip and get around their counters.

I think the issue is two fold - where many of the abusers are already borderline broken & probably could / should be banned as well, but in this mega centric meta, I think an effect like this is also a bit too powerful in general as a blanket support for most, if not all the megas - similar to Light Clay for Veil / screens. It is fun to play around with though so I get if people want to keep it.
 
I Don't Know if this Option is Good, But What if we Ban all the Broken Stuff in One Instance Like all the Broken Megas (Lucario, Bax, Raichu and Maybe Delphox), Blaiziken, Sneasler, Hamurott and Normal Bax. Is it not Easier to Make this and Solve a Big Chunk of all the Problems in this Metagame or it's there a Reason to not Make this?

Edit: Atleast Mega Mence is Now Banned.
 
Many times Lucario Z on hyper offense is really great
idk lucario Z need Vacuum Wave or not
but i think he need this to hit scarf HMaru
32 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aura Guard Lucario-Mega-Z: 90-107 (62 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
To be honest,this is really absurd
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2678701903-d2jy5v8yo74o46r477nx6uqaw64mldwpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2678733595-o87ndwu5ayer31ss41v7na3cagxuvg2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2679354005-93m8l04p0j8ow5jc85cxsu00h83fiw1pw?p2
 
Unowndragon said:
Many times Lucario Z on hyper offense is really great
idk lucario Z need Vacuum Wave or not
but i think he need this to hit scarf HMaru
32 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aura Guard Lucario-Mega-Z: 90-107 (62 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
To be honest,this is really absurd
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2678701903-d2jy5v8yo74o46r477nx6uqaw64mldwpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2678733595-o87ndwu5ayer31ss41v7na3cagxuvg2pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2679354005-93m8l04p0j8ow5jc85cxsu00h83fiw1pw?p2
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gg2ez
 
1789148686837.png

Hit top 1. Mega Salamence is gone, so I can only see this as the time to discuss my newfound favorite of this latest batch.
1789074982419.png

Bow down to your new Golisogod, because this guy is nothing short of perfect. Bug/Steel typing in a meta with Baxcalibur running around, the embarrassment of riches that is its movepool, and an amazing statspread as well. Offensive Swords Dance is my bread-and-butter and I've seen so many moves you can use for it. Leech Life for recovery, Iron Head for good STAB against fairies and Bax, CC for any steels, and your choice of priority between Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch. Oh yeah, and they're all boosted by Tough Claws.

Frankly, it's bulk is so ridiculous I've even been running fast variants to get the jump on Corviknights, even the ones without speed-reducting natures. You get a good CC in before it can Iron Defense or U-turn away, that's a huge hole opened for whatever physical attacker needs that guy gone. Here's a couple replays where outrunning Corv came in handy. And here's some replays where even without max HP investment this thing just LIVES shit. What this mon is capable of is nothing short of absurd, and it's small downsides of being vulnerable to chip damage from things like Helmet Chomp and hazards in general, especially in base (which is why Hatt is this thing's day 1) as well as a lot of Fire-type coverage being common regardless of its presence (again, thank you Corviknight) can be easily remedied depending on the team. I see this guy being top-tier for a LONG while.


Now for some other mons to discuss:

1789149397592.pngOk I can kinda see the ban talks with this guy. You have the "fuck every physical attack except Earthquake" ability, Nasty Plot off 164 special attack (trust me, those Aura Spheres don't FEEL like 80 BP), and solid priority if any revenge killer gets out of line. Sometimes you can use Colbur Glowking as your answer until you have to pray that it doesn't flinch you with Dark Pulse, or just obliterate you outright with Steel Beam, which i HAVE run before to very funny results. Again, another mon that LOVES HW support from Hatt as well as the existence of Rillaboom, but unlike Pod it can't really be slowed as much by chip damage thanks to its SR resist and the fact that you can't outspeed it as easily to get good hits in. I'd probably just ban it.

1789150711069.png1789150699999.pngLet's ignore the fact that I was laddering with the Bax Annihilator 3000 (Pod) and address both these guys and how irritating they are to fight. Mega Bax has that heinous bulk that only Pod could match even without snow, only this time you don't want your Garchomp anywhere near it and it can't be burned either way. Pick 3 of Glaive Rush, Icicle Crash, EQ/HH, Ice shard, along with your setup of choice and you're off to the races. Oh yeah, Icicle Crash. Don't forget it can flinch you when your Corviknight needs to get some chip against it.

Base Bax I'm actually worried about too, because the freed up item means you can run stuff like Chople Berry to deck revenge killers, which means the sky's the limit for picking your battles. I'd just ban the Mega and suspect Base Bax, since the bulk and power from the Mega is way beyond what this tier really needs to deal with.

1789151925862.pngDickhead then, dickhead even more now. Unburden's full potential being activated pretty much necessitates that you have a mon with a resist berry on you like Colbur Glowking lest you get wrecked immediately. I've also seen Fire Punch quite a bit for stuff like Pod and Aegi, while still smacking Corv without dropping your defenses. Granted, I have been seeing quite a lot of Toxapex that own it quite hard, but trust me, do NOT underestimate Dire Claw fishing. I tried running Kebia Berry Hatt to live Dire Claw once and it slept me. That memory sticks with me even now. Keep an eye on this one. It's probably suspect-worthy now.

OK, lightning round with non-brokens.
:rillaboom: gterrain is BIG but this guy's kind of just a U-turn bot for more annoying shit. not THAT many big targets for glide either but wood hammer is still wood hammer. it's alright.

:samurott-hisui: ok i lied this guy's still annoying as shit with hazards BUT a bunch of new shit threatens the hell out of it + we got air balloon so spikes are not as scary

:volcarona: - defensive variants are cool pod + zucario checks, benefit heavily from rillaboom to boost giga drain as well. stocks are up for moth fans.

:primarina: - air balloon is a godsend for this, making it an actual bax check and letting it safely come in on chomp. also been running aqua jet to own low HP guys. granted this does make it a pex victim but what can u do

:absol-mega-z: if shit gets banned I can see this mon being pretty nutty. it does crazy damage, and i've even seen tech shit like wisp to mess up switchins. don't sleep on this mon

:garchomp-mega-z: sleep on this mon i've never seen it do much of anything

:pawmot: mad potential, revival blessing buff is cool but don't ignore the fact that this guy has super high powered stabs and ice punch for chomp, it WILL mess you up and bring back your mega of choice for a second beating. maybe LO w mach punch could be cool though...
 
Fusion Flare said:
:pawmot: mad potential, revival blessing buff is cool but don't ignore the fact that this guy has super high powered stabs and ice punch for chomp, it WILL mess you up and bring back your mega of choice for a second beating. maybe LO w mach punch could be cool though...
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This Mon is definitely underrated and has potential for some cool stuff. It’s just fast enough for its role as a wall breaker and the high power stabs are awesome. I think LO 3attacks+rest with natural cure is a solid option since it makes it far less vulnerable to status and even can have some longevity by taking advantage of forced switches to heal up and then cure off the sleep when switching out.

Come to think of it I seem to recall this was a set it ran in early SVUU. Might be misremembering though since it was ages ago at this point.
 
Most mons with strong Bolt Beam coverage has a niche IMO because most of the defensive cores get fried by that combination. Boltbeam Mega Metagross was very strong last regulation and I had a solid amount of success with Sheer Force Life Orb Conkeldurr - which was even stronger than Metagross and 2HKO'd / OHKO'd many key targets with Thunder / Ice Punch. Therefore, I think Pawmot will be excellent. Pawmot having chomp beating speed is huge asw as good priority in Mach Punch for the various gambits or scarf samus you'll encounter.

I think the main issue is just whether or not it'll be able to play around its fragility and being a bit prediction reliant. Double shock is a powerful move, but it does have a big drawback is that it forces Pawmot out after being used vs a few big threats like Floette or gking. At the very least, LO Double shock is strong enough that these mons can't even pivot in safely which is a big plus.
 
Double posting cause of bans.

Can't say I'm very surprised on these bans. I think maybe more counterplay would've developed naturally for Bax since I didn't really see anyone use things like Mega Scizor or Air Balloon Tinkaton - neither of which are bad checks. Though an issue with a lot of them is that they kinda feel invalidated by its defensive partners Corv and Gking so w/e ban is prob fine. Kinda was looking forward to maybe arguing about keeping regular bax in a suspect thread though. :psycry:

Mega Lucario I'm also not really sure on. Found Toxapex to be an extremely good answer and pretty great into good swath of the rest of the meta. I think the specially defensive grounds we are using for Ychu also would have helped with Mega Lucario as well - as even at +2 it isn't OHKOing many of them with Flash Cannon so it needs to trade half its health w/ Steel Beam. Again tho running specially defensive Grounds for ychu is annoying because it makes you less sturdy into Blaziken or Sneasler, so I get that angle.

I will admit, I didn't really see any Mega Alakazam and the ones I ran into didn't really do much. Not sure how warranted this ban was since psy spam teams still feel like iffy structure wise, but w/e don't really care. Mega Zam is less shiest than other Pokemon like Gardevoir or Delphox anyways for more general teams so this ban really winds up not mattering much in my book.


Anyways with Lucario banned, I think Ychu will probably wind up getting axed. Lucario's presence gave specially defensive Grounds a very strong use case in addition to Mega Raichu. However, with Lucario gone, specially defensive grounds just wind up feeling weaker than the physdef grounds which you would want to run to better check pokemon such as Blaziken, Sneasler, and Mega Charizard X. Volcarona is also a legitimate usecase, but probably can be better handled by a non-ground teammate such as Toxapex. Outside of grounds, most of this mons best checks are mega which is incredibly restrictive in builder.

Conversely, in a post Raichu / Lucario meta, I actually don't think Sneasler will be axed because it is handled more comfortably by the physically defensive Grounds - which are also more easy to run. The doubled speed is amazing, but it still has its old issues of needing to setup the SD to begin dropping things - which isn't the easiest thing in the world - having annoying checks like Colbur Aegislash, Corviknight, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Slowking-G, etc. and now has Helmet to contend with which will wear it down into priority range faster. I think we will see more red card usage as well which will completely fuck over its sweep if it doesn't get those OHKO thresholds. The main arguement to ban it I think will be about how oppressive it is against offensive teams unless LO sneasler gets traction (that shit is seriously strong, 2HKOes Dirge with raw throat chop lol).

Hamu I think is a mon that deserved to be a suspect since that mon will shape how the tier progresses. How easy it lays spikes up is quite broken - but also quite a useful tool for checking many mega Pokemon. And if nothing else, it is quite fun teambuilding option due to how many holes it plugs in teams. Still, I do beleive it is a step above Ghold and Palafin in brokeness fs and I would be interested to see the darks like Meow, Greninja, Hydreigon, and Gambit that open up w/o it hogging the lion's share of usage.
 
Okay, (Mega)-Bax, Mega-Lucario and Mega-Zam are Banned which is a Good Sign, and i Understand the Raichu Y Suspect Test But in My Opinion i Think that Hamurott Needs more Likely a Suspect Test because how Impressive Spikes are in Champions OU and the Plethora of Sets it's Runs Which Makes this Mon Very Difficult to Check.
 
Quickbans
:lucario-mega-z: Mega Lucario Z
No surprises there. The only real counter to this thing was spdef Toxapex. Everything else gets smoked, and the revenge killing options were likewise limited: Special attacking Scarfers that resist Vacuum Wave (Scarf Dragapult, Scarf Horoark, Scarf Volcarona yes I saw this thing be played multiple times).

:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam
While I am not sure if it was necessarily "broken", am I gonna cry to see it banned? Absolutely not. Its only place was on singleplayer Psyterrain teams where it clicks the big Psychic-type fuck you button, or Focus Blast if you're a Dark, which it can do for free due to Psyterrain. Every other archetype was running Mega Delphox due to being a more reliable mon.

:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
To the surprise of not many, Bax was also culled. While I am sure it was not a problem for many, that was mainly due to Mega Lucario Z being a great check to it... but it got banned. It is also unreasonable to ask everyone to run Mega Golisopod or Mega Scizor to not lose to it on preview. Any other form of counterplay was at risk of either receiving a boosted Ice Shard to the face, or being liable to Icicle Crash flinches in the case of Unaware Clefable or Iron Defense Corviknight.


Suspect Tests
:raichu-mega-y: Mega Raichu Y
Not a surprise to see it receive the first suspect test of this regulation. I'll keep it brief cuz I'll make a longer post on the suspect thread, but tl;dr it's still very good for how much effort you put into using it, easily puts you in the voltturn blender, and the onus of making the correct prediction is on the defender while it throws out high power moves. Guessing wrong once means losing one of your two soft checks, and probably the game next. Even Glowking is a very temporary way of playing around it.

:sneasler: Sneasler
It's not as good as anyone anticipated. Frankly, I have not lost to it once during my ~60 games in this new regulation, despite not running any hard counter or anything. Just regular general offense counterplay like lots of priority, stuff like Hippo, Iron Defense Corv, Toxapex...
I could be blindsided due to how utterly insane the quickbanned fellows were, taking the spotlight away from Sneasler.
Much more innovation is possible for Sneasler, like forcing Colbur mons to run the 50/50 between Throat Chop and Shadow Claw, or even running non-Seed sets like Life Orb as theorized by Magcargo, helped out by Rillaboom's Grassy Terrain recouping Life Orb recoil and Earthquake damage.

:samurott-hisui: Hisuian Samurott
hi oat!!!!

:golisopod-mega: Mega Golisopod
I do not really understand why that was even on this slate... And the votes seem to reflect this. Not much to say except, it's a very solid mon, just like Mega Scizor. Easily A/A- material.
 
RyukTheDarkrai said:
y'know as silly as this sounds with all the talk of terrain wouldn't that mean the seeds should be banned?
i'm probably wrong here but like there's sneasler in terrain and blaziken in terrain and hawlucha in terrain and maybe even baxcalibur in terrain
it's not an 'every pokemon under terrain is broken' sort of thing but like you guys get what i'm getting at right
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we got corv and more to wall senleaser
 
unpopler oppion bax is okay in the meta it stops passove teams and it's set up is easy to stop with sash and fighting and steel moves which are common and lucario mega z is okay scarf cinder ace stops it with pyro ball because it's non contact
 
Sorry for the double post but I would like to ask the council/tiering leadership to handle suspect tests slightly differently from now on. The last suspect Champions OU had, which is the Damp Rock one, started on July 12th, and ended on July 29th, for a total of 17 days. (14 days reqs period, 3 days for votes... and 1 day that I did not count for the ban to take effect on Showdown)

I cannot help but wonder if this is just too long for a single suspect test. Champions regulations usually last a bit less than 3 months; As confirmed by TPC, Regulation M-D is scheduled to drop on December 1st, which is 2 months and a half away. If we keep the same duration for suspect tests, which is about half a month, then even if we do the 3 next suspect tests (Mega Raichu Y, Sneasler, Hamurott) starting today and back to back, it will take a month and a half, or half of the regulation, to complete them. And that is considering that there will be no more suspect tests after those 3.

Whether this is too much time or just a byproduct of Pokemon Champions we must accept... I will let everyone debate. Personally, I would like if suspect tests lasted less time, maybe 9/10 days of reqs period instead of 14 days.
 
fluff!! said:
Sorry for the (near) double post but I would like to ask the council/tiering leadership to handle suspect tests slightly differently from now on. The last suspect Champions OU had, which is the Damp Rock one, started on July 12th, and ended on July 29th, for a total of 17 days.

I cannot help but wonder if this is just too long for a single suspect test. Champions regulations usually last a bit less than 3 months; As confirmed by TPC, Regulation M-D is scheduled to drop on December 1st, which is 2 months and a half away. If we keep the same duration for suspect tests, which is about half a month, then even if we do the 3 next suspect tests (Mega Raichu Y, Sneasler, Hamurott) starting today and back to back, it will take a month and a half, or half of the regulation, to complete them.

Whether this is too much time or just a byproduct of Pokemon Champions we must accept... I will let everyone debate. Personally, I would like if suspect tests lasted less time, maybe 9/10 days of reqs period instead of 14 days.
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or just wait for a new reg to come in than add the ban that way we get more votes and more time to see if the ban was right
 
I knew Mega Bax, Mega Lucario Z, and Mega Zam were going to get banned. Mega Pod was this close to almost getting banned too, why :(. I know Mega Pod is very good but it's not oppressive. It's a very good mon that is very much needed in Ou. I already explained why Mega Pod is necessary for Ou. We are not about ban Mega Pod, no thanks. The main reason why Sneasler is not oppressive is because no Tera. You can disagree with me all you want and that's fair but tell me when I'm telling lies. And also because of Aegislash which was not in Gen 9

​

 
Some time has passed and I wanted to drop a metagame post on how the metagame has been shaping up so far and my thoughts on it alongside the votes that I did as a council member.

:lucario-mega-z:
I voted QB and I don't think there is much justification needed here, this Pokemon only serves to force Galarian Slowking on every team all the more similarly to Mega Floette and Mega Raichu Y but does this to an even more extreme extent, surviving common priority such as Sucker Punch (unlike Mega Raichu Y) with ease due to Aura Guard.

:raichu-mega-y:
Yeah this Pokemon is pretty insane, almost no switchins and can break through any team (particularly the Ground-type with Alluring Voice for Garchomp, Focus Blast for Excadrill, Grass Knot for Hippowdon and Surf for Gliscor for example), using Sucker Punch against it becomes a mindgame with Substitute. I voted to suspect test it.

:alakazam-mega:
This Pokemon paired with Indeedee is simply absurd, its Expanding Force doing absurd amounts of damage paired with its immunity to priority which allows it to not get sniped by Sucker Punch and kill Dark-types with Focus Blast or Dazzling Gleam. Providing nothing to the metagame besides restricting teambuilding and pairing nicely with the already controversial Sneasler I'd be surprised if anyone wanted this Pokemon to stick around.

:golisopod-mega:
I voted DNB, really strong Pokemon and is honestly better than I thought— it is really bulky and strong with recovery in a powerful Leech Life alongside strong priority options like First Impression, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch to make up for its poor speed however it is this speed that keeps it balanced with unreliable recovery and that damning 4x weakness.

:sneasler:
I voted to have this Pokemon suspected even though I find it to be pretty absurd right now, terrain seeds turning it from a solid option to a probably overpowered one, being able to almost take down Corviknight from full with a +2 Close Combat and surviving a Brave Bird with a +1 Defense boost as per Grassy Seed. In retrospect I probably should've voted to QB but in comparison to Mega Lucario Z, Mega Alakazam and Baxcalibur it is a lot more manageable and I could see people learning to play around it— it helps that Colbur Berry Galarian Slowking is a nice check which finds itself on many teams.

:baxcalibur:
I voted QB, it simply has very few switchins and is incredibly hard to answer— pressured Corviknight to run Iron Defense + Body Press which caused it to lose to Fighting-types as a result. Very punishing on the builder.

:baxcalibur-mega:
I voted DNB, if Baxcalibur wasn't banned then I didn't think its Mega should've been— I find an item like Life Orb or Chople Berry to be better than poorly distributed stats and no change in ability.

:samurott-hisui:
My opinion on this Pokemon is well-known I think, it is my opinion that any team without Samurott-Hisui is a bad one. I voted to suspect test it, I'll quote a portion of a post that I made before talking about the Pokemon:

Hisuian Samurott in Champions OU might be one of the most unfun, oppressive, broken and metagame defining Pokémon in history. When compared to SV OU, Hisuian Samurott is powerful due to Ceaseless Edge and finds itself as a one trick pony due to the high power level. Compared to other Pokémon, it finds itself feeling sort of weak and is only OU due to the nature of its signature move. In Champions OU however? If Hisuian Samurott never had Ceaseless Edge it would still find itself being an OU Pokémon and in fact a great one at that due to its amazing ability, great typing, high power, access to a multitude of priority moves, access to pivoting, solid bulk and a solid speed tier. So WHY just WHY does it have an effective 90+ base power STAB move that sets Spikes on the field, causing hazard stack to define the tier and setting hazards whilst doing at least 20% to even the most dedicated of switchins. As well as this, any potential "switchin" is either being farmed and allows the Hisuian Samurott user three Spikes on the field whether the opponent likes it or not, is being pivoted on and losing momentum due to Flip Turn or is straight up dying to the absurd damage that Razor Shell/Aqua Cutter can do or is getting hit by something stupid like Aerial Ace and exploding. Not ever in my life have I ever seen a Pokémon who quite literally does everything, you can run him as a Choice Scarfer to revenge kill, a bulky Spikes setter, a Focus Sash lead, a setup sweeper, a disruptor with Encore or Taunt, an item remover, a mixed attacker, utilise him as one of the most broken priority users in the game. HISUIAN SAMUROTT DOES EVERYTHING. This guy is terrifying on preview and defines the tier. He defines who I lead with, he defines what I do in the builder, he defines my perception of the tier and defines hazard stack which is arguably the strongest archetype. I HATE HISUIAN SAMUROTT. I HATE HIM.

So far the metagame looks pretty fine though if not incredibly similar, big 4 still reigns supreme. I'd like to pitch the idea that Mega Garchomp Z is actually viable but not because it is good.

:garchomp-mega-z: :samurott-hisui: :corviknight: :slowking-galar: :rillaboom: :sneasler:

On big 4 a lot of great synergies with the archetype are Pokemon which don't Mega which makes Garchomp the candidate by process of elimination, I like it. For example, it has the speed of a Choice Scarf Pokemon which allows Samurott-Hisui to be the superior bulky set and allows Rillaboom to hold the Life Orb. Rillaboom is a naturally good partner here and Sneasler is great paired with it, taking advantage of Grassy Seed.

I haven't seen Mega Absol Z do much but it seems relatively strong and my points stand from my last post that Rillaboom is a great presence and that Pawmot is incredibly strong. I think Salamence and Toxtricity seem interesting.

:garchomp: :samurott-hisui: :floette-mega: :corviknight: :blaziken: :pawmot:

Here is a cool team utilising Pawmot, threatening almost the entire tier with its powerful STAB moves and Ice Punch to OHKO offensive Garchomps with Revival Blessing being particularly useful on Mega Floette and Blaziken— helping and incentivising the trading gameplan with this team. Blaziken alongside Pawmot make a good core, overwhelming Fighting-type answers. You can run Jolly on Blaziken and even Protect over Earthquake.
 
Here’s my thoughts on the bans..

Mega Bax + Bax not much needs to be said all it needs is three moves and a dragon dance to check your entire team, legit the only check to this Mon I found semi success with was a physdef primarina, but it gets blown away by adamant life orb sets with a +1 earthquake forcing you to run air balloon and even then icicle crash hacks can still get you, + you now have a primarina that is terrible at doing anything else.

Lucario z fun to play absolutely horrible to play against, having that much speed and power plus an ablity that gives you bulk rivaling actual tanks was just plain stupid. Will gladly play against this guy in a Ubers format. My guy volcarona will miss the slight uptick in usage as one of the few true checks to Lucario z.

Mega zam, expanding force + psychic terrain + trace into other mons goes stupid, effectively no checks other than z absol or a scarf dark/ghost that would be fast enough to outspeed a 150 speed Mon. I actually ran into this Mon once on ladder and managed to beat it but the potential and raw damage can’t be ignored. Psyspam is looking to be formidable playstyle and I’m glad zam was banned.

Suspects:

Raichu:
Now I am biased here, I almost exclusively play balance teams with an incredibly bulky special wall either dragalugie, gking, hippowdon (sometimes two at once) especially dragaluge raichu is completely helpless, meganium also matches well into raichu. It’s fragility also can’t be ignored dying instantly to the strongest priority users and OHKO by common scarfers.

Still 100% accurate focus blasts and zap cannons poke holes into most teams and with psychic terrain being available, raichu can completely negate its priority issue. I do support a suspect but honestly I haven’t found raichu to be all that oppressive though I come from a place of bias.

Sneasler:
I think this Mon needs a suspects more than raichu, its power into offensive teams is unreasonable, with access to psychic terrain it can negate revenge kills from strong priority users. I do sneasler does have checks, corv and aeigisash are to big ones and now have some more room to breathe due to the latest bans an can now more appropriately check sneasler, still it’s very easy to work around both those checks with support from hazards as these mons need to remain almost completely healthy to check sneasler.

H Sammy:

I’m still 60/40 on this Mon, it’s incredibly splashable and its use eill only increase as new items are added to the game. Its synergy with other megas is especially prevalent specifically raichu Y and other megas with strong pivots that can bring it in after dealing large damage and either clean up or threaten hazards. The bulky SD set that terrorized reg M-B bullied tanky mons that are supposed to check (poor corvknight) again im a bit biased running balance teams with a bulky hazzard control and almost always a fairy such as clef, so I generally don’t struggle to beat h Sammy but I find it comes out too easy and gets value way to quickly, im not against a ban.

Mega golispod:

Just no, this is honestly just a really solid Mon with clear checks, a surprising amount of set diversity and fits well into many teams. Not oppressive in the slightest provided you don’t let you opponent run away with the game using a swords dance set.

It’s also been said before but the suspect process will have to be shorter then usual in order to access all these mons, not sure if their is a precedent to suspect test multiple mons at once or does that defeat the purpose of suspect test, let me know.
 
 
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swordisbored said:
:garchomp-mega-z: :samurott-hisui: :corviknight: :slowking-galar: :rillaboom: :sneasler:

On big 4 a lot of great synergies with the archetype are Pokemon which don't Mega which makes Garchomp the candidate by process of elimination, I like it. For example, it has the speed of a Choice Scarf Pokemon which allows Samurott-Hisui to be the superior bulky set and allows Rillaboom to hold the Life Orb. Rillaboom is a naturally good partner here and Sneasler is great paired with it, taking advantage of Grassy Seed.

I haven't seen Mega Absol Z do much but it seems relatively strong and my points stand from my last post that Rillaboom is a great presence and that Pawmot is incredibly strong. I think Salamence and Toxtricity seem interesting.
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Non-STAB Earth Power is really not hitting anything that Draco Meteor and Flamethrower don't already cover. Power Gem is the way to go.
 
Just feel like sharing some thoughts on the bans and general metagame stuff.

:Lucario-Mega-Z:
When this was first revealed in ZA and then later in champions revealed to lack a power boosting ability, I was slightly skeptical if this would be broken... and then Aura Guard happened. The fact it's as strong as it is for how fast it is, and also so hard to revenge kill because of its ability, it severely limits counterplay to it both offensively and defensively. boosted hits are difficult at best to weather, and at worst feel overwhelming without very specific pokemon. Stabs+dark pulse cover basically everything and mandated glowking to avoid getting run over. The tier's common scarfers simply can't deal with it well, and priority thuds into it. I'm glad this is gone.

:Baxcalibur:
This mon I feel will, barring some sort of nerf or introduction of a bunch of good OU level mons to check it, always be just too much of a burden for an OU environment. The only true answers this had were Mega Scizor or Mega Golisopod, and without those a boosted Bax can often just run away with games because its natural bulk is so high, and Icicle Crash lets it BS out of certain situations. I personally think Mega is also annoying just because the raw power and bulk increase exacerbates the teambuilding issue in dealing with it (since you can't rely on LO recoil to wear itself into revenge range, and the higher bulk makes it harder to pick off).

:Alakazam-Mega:
Natdex players know what sort of a demon this mon is under psychic terrain. A boosted terrain supported M-Zam is far too fast and powerful, with its low bulk no longer possible to prey on with priorty, and thus it's incredibly easy to throw out +2 ExForce and run over mons. Very restricting mon to face, and while scarfers still can help face it down unlike vs Baxcalibur, something like Mega Scizor is nowhere near satisfactory as an answer when boosted Focus Blast slices through even bulky MZor at +2. Like Lucario Z, I'm glad it's gone.

As for the other stuff that was voted on...

:Raichu-Mega-Y:
Definitely a suspect worthy pokemon, probably tied with Samurott-H for being the most broken/unbalanced pokemon in the tier atm. The speed tier is way too good for its power level, and its able to run circles around defensive teams with Volt Switch while also pinning them via Zap Cannon para and its range of coverage. And unlike other pokemon whom you could play around with offensive resists to try and position better, Zap Cannon prevents that and only makes it harder to handle. Sub circumvents the Sucker vs Gambit dilemma and it... just exerts too much pressure in builder and in battle.

:Samurott-Hisui:
This tbh is probably the single best pokemon in the tier and I'd agree with the sentiment that a team without it is kicking themselves. It's still very possible to run teams without it absolutely, but it's so incredibly good, versatile AND reliable that it feels like a waste to pass it over. And honestly I hate that it's so good it overshadows other dark times to the degree it does. Its a very centralizing pokemon that is capable of ending games itself, and in a tier lacking hazard removal, its spikes are very oppressive to face in conjunction with Stealth Rock. I really hope this gets looked at eventually.

:Sneasler:
Right now this feels on the cusp of being a problem, but it could also wind up being less of one if other bans help lighten the teambuilding load and allow new checks to it to emerge. So I'm happy to see it waited on for a bit more.

:Golisopod-Mega:
I can understand being wary of this mon, since its SD sets are really gnarly balance breakers and its not the easiest pokemon to beat as +2 Tough Claw Aqua Jet drops every offensive fire from full (or, factoring sash, after rocks), but the low speed and hazard vulnerability leads met o believe this is fine for now. I can see it possibly being a concern down the road, but I'd rather we watch it settle into the tier.

General thoughts on the tier,

I think if the major brokens can be removed then it'll look really good. Some stuff from the M-B metagame like :Hippowdon:, :Slowking-Galar:, :Aegislash:, :Excadrill:, :Lopunny-Mega: and :Kingambit: still feel as strong as ever. The new additions of Rocky Helmet and Air Balloon are small in the sense they're just items, but as a whole they're much appreciated for giving teams ways to play around offensive threats. Helmet I feel will become a very focal point of teambuilding as the tier continues to develop, what with Garchomp still being outrageously easy to fit on teams and Helmet being a classic fit on it.

In terms of other stuff...

:Pawmot:
Pawmot @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
EVs: 32 Atk / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Double Shock
- Ice Punch
- Encore / Mach Punch / Revival Blessing

Said it before but this really feels like a serious sleeper pick in this new format. It's just fast enough for wallbreaking, with its huge power dual stabs that are actually remarkably hard to switch into for any bulky team. For example,

32 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pawmot Ice Punch vs. 32 HP / 17 Def Dragalge-Mega: 104-125 (60.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pawmot Double Shock vs. 32 HP / 17 Def Dragalge-Mega: 62-74 (36 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even CC does a minimum of 30% resisted, and with rocks up Pawmot can pick up the KO of CC into Ice Punch on M-Dragalge. This can also happen to M-Meganium, and even for something like Hippowdon...

32 Atk Life Orb Pawmot Close Combat vs. 32 HP / 7+ Def Hippowdon: 94-110 (43.7 - 51.1%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

That, is pretty impressive. First three moves are a lock, and its last slot feels very "whatever your team wants". Encore is neat for punishing a bulky mon and lock them into recovery, while Mach Punch is cool for Mega Lopunny and ensuring late game gambit match ups. Also it can pick off weakened Blaziken and weakned Raichu-Y, which is kinda need.

:Grapploct:
Grapploct @ Black Belt
Ability: Technician
Level: 50
EVs: 32 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Storm Throw
- Mach Punch
- Brutal Swing
- Ice Punch

This one is just for the 'hahas' because I wouldn't really recommend it unless you want to screw around. But this mon does genuinely have some rather impressive damage. As a matter of fact---

32+ Atk Black Belt Technician Grapploct Storm Throw vs. 32 HP / 32+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 100-118 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32+ Atk Black Belt Technician Grapploct Storm Throw vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Golisopod-Mega on a critical hit: 88-105 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

32+ Atk Black Belt Technician Grapploct Storm Throw vs. 32 HP / 7+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 108-127 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Behold.

...huh...maybe there IS some justification to use it.
 
This might be a long post as of writing this, but with the eventual Mega Raichu-Y suspect test coming up I wanted to share thoughts on this and my opinion on why Mega Raichu-Y SHOULD NOT be banned. These are some points that I would like to specify and my thoughts:

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The main issue with Mega Raichu-Y for a lot of people is due to its sheer power with Zap Cannon and coverage such as Focus Blast and Surf/Grass Knot for Grounds and Alluring Voice for Dragons. For reference Zap Cannon has roughly a 50% chance to OHKO max HP Slowking-Galar (32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Zap Cannon vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 81-96 (40 - 47.5%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock). This calc is one of the main selling points on Ychus 'brokeness' & how it has coverage for any Ground switch in. The problem however is this is very different in practice. Due to Ychu's immense frailty it is quite hard for it to consistently break against many offense and balance teams:

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Take for instance this team here
- Raichu cannot enter on Slowking-Galar, tanks two Zap Cannons and can 1v1 Raichu with Sludge Bomb
- Hippowdon owns Raichu, can tank a Grass Knot and kill with Earthquake
- Mega Delphox outspeeds Raichu and OHKO's with Psyshock
- Hisuian Samurott Sucker Punch can cleanly OHKO Raichu-Y
- Meowscarada with Choice Scarf destroys Raichu

This leaves Raichu-Y's entry opportunity only against Corviknight, which while an easy Pokemon to bring in as many breakers such as Hisuian Samuortt can force in Corviknight, Mega Raichu-Y requires lots of safe positioning to bring safely on the field. Moreover, Raichu-Y has a tough desicion when clicking moves, for example the Slowking-Galar is very likely going to go in in where you Zap Cannon. However the next turn requires the opponent to predict whether or not the switch to the Ground type will come out of the stay in where you should click Surf/Grass Knot. However if the Galarian Slowking stays in then it could punish with a Toxic/Sludge Bomb poison. Garchomp is a Top 3 Pokemon that pressure Mega Raichu-Y heavily with the dilema on whether to Zap Cannon and thud into Garchomp or Focus Blast predicting it but at the cost of potentially being punished by a stay in. This is clear that Mega-Raichu-Y is a Pokemon that is very rewarding on correct play and punishing on incorrect play. As a result of the very offensive metagame that Champions OU is, teams are well equiped to handle Raichu-Y without there needing to be a checkbox type of answer such as running a specially defensive Sinistcha for example.

Mega Raichu-Y also has a massive problem with its bulk. Usually on most teams there will more than likely be a priority Pokemon such as Kingambit, Hisuian Samurott, Dragonite etc. This alongside the multitude of faster Pokemon such as many choice scarfers and Mega Delphox, Dragapult and as well as the new Z-Megas Garchomp and Absol both being quite viable. As a result of many Champions OU teams being very offensive long-term it is very hard to sustain Mega Raichu-Y's on paper excellent wallbreaking as many of these wallbreakers are very hard to wall longterm. This is why I believe that Mega Raichu-Y is a not only a Pokemon that rewards good play but also one that punishes bad teambuilding. The inevitable arguement of Mega Raichu-Y's 100% winrate in Week 3 of ChamPL will come up, however when you actually look at the teams brought against Mega Raichu-Y the argument that it punishes bad teambuilding is exemplified. Moreover, in later Weeks Mega Raichu-Y's win rate is decreasing from 100% to 50% mainly due to the fact that many people are more aware of it, not by including hard checks such as Sinistcha or Chesnaught but with better general teams.

Why keeping Mega Raichu-Y in the tier is potentially ok

Mega Raichu-Y has very unique traits that are very useful in Champions OU, for one it is excellent immediate power and speed control being able to pressure cores consisting of Corviknight and Galarian Slowking, however Mega Raichu-Y is also able to check a lot of annoying Pokemon for instance Mega Staraptor and offensively check Pokemon such as Toxapex that cause lots of problems most notably for offensive teams. It is also extremely weak to hazards like most other mega Pokemon with limited removal only being Defog Corviknight it is manageable to wear down Mega Raichu-Y as it requires multiple turns to effectively wallbreak.

I also think that the inclusion of Hisuian Samurott is a big factor of Mega Raichu-Y's 'brokeness, with its layers of Spikes being very easily settable it can be quite smooth for Mega Raichu-Y to break effectively. With Samurott's removal Mega Raichu-Y will have harder entry opportunities as it no longer has Flip Turn support but also its special checks such as Slowking-Galar are less easily weared down and Mega Raichu-Y will be a more managable Pokemon.

My final words are please do not when the eventual suspect test happens please do not simpily vote BAN on ychu out of past experience or spite. Ychu's brokeness was a thing of pre-M-C and now that M-C has been released with even more checks most notably Rillaboom so just think about it for a sec even though the eventual ban is probably going to happen. There shouldn't be another Mega Baxcalibur or SV Volcarona moment where bans happen out of past spite & the meta should be able to progress more for a more accurate opinion.
 
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