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Announcement Gen 4 Random Battle Suspect Process: Stealth Rock (Result: Stealth Rock stays gone!)

A Cake Wearing A Hat

A Cake Wearing A Hat

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Random Battle Lead
Well, here we are, suspecting Gen 4 Stealth Rock! We don't normally do suspects here in the land of Random Battles, and we don't plan to do many more after this. However, we have extenuating circumstances that make this suspect rather necessary. Gen 5 may receive its own suspect in the future once Gen 5 open ends.

Earlier in spring of 2026, the Random Battles development council brought up a motion and ultimately voted to remove Stealth Rock from gens 4 and 5 of Random Battles. Additionally, all levels of Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon and Stealth Rock setters were adjusted manually in an attempt to preliminarily balance Pokemon after the change. They did this on the grounds that Stealth Rock contributes too heavily to matchup imbalance; additionally, it upsets the level balancing of most Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon to the point where they are much stronger than they should be in games where the opponent does not get Stealth Rock, and they are much weaker than they should be in games where Stealth Rock is present. These are all valid under-the-hood concerns, and at the time the council believed it to be in their best interest to remove Stealth Rock altogether. However, several concerns quickly arose from the community. Many long-time Gen 4 players began to complain that the new format is much too slow, much too stall-centered, and perhaps even more imbalanced matchup-wise than when Stealth Rock was present; these concerns, too, are entirely valid. The play-feel of Gen 4 is drastically different in its current Stealth Rock-less state, and to many, this is a change for the worse.

So, we ask you, the community, to vote in this suspect test. Do we keep Stealth Rock banned, or should we unban it and revert all changes to levels and sets to what they were before action was initially taken?

Suspect Requirements
In order to qualify over the next two weeks via the ladder, you will need to hop on a new alt and reach at least 1650 ELO and at least 85% GXE simultaneously, with no outside assistance. The ladder suspect begins now and ends on September 27 at 11:59 PM Eastern time. You must use the "/linksmogon" command on your reqs account at some point in order to be verified.

See all people who have qualified here!

Additionally, the following users have qualified for this suspect by default due to their tournament performance in Gen 4 Open and World Cup of Randbats:
Ghostilex R1C3M4N Diamonds_realm RainListener livid washed MichaelderBeste2 anankaios Gom

mind gaming Drifting Wigglytuff Drud 35Q71N Texas Cloverleaf blittius

If you believe you should be on either of these lists and that we are in error, please let us know.

Members of the Random Battles Development Council (including myself) do not automatically get reqs. Currently, the only council member with default reqs is livid washed due to his tournament performance.

Suspect Voting
The voting stage for this suspect will occur shortly after all reqs have been verified. Per a council vote on the threshold, a 60% supermajority will be required to keep Stealth Rock banned. In other words, if more than 40% of qualified voters want Stealth Rock back, it will be brought back, with no questions asked. If Stealth Rock is brought back, neither Stealth Rock nor Rapid Spin will be enforced on every team. However, they will be enforced on the individual Pokemon that can run them.

If you have obtained reqs, please be sure to vote.

This thread will remain open to CIVIL discussion and answering of questions about the suspect. Good luck laddering, everyone! Remember, ladder period ends Sunday, September 27.
 
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I will be voting to unban Rocks. My rationale from earlier in the season still holds true, and will be reposted below for visibility.

---

First, the meta with the removal of Rocks is significantly worse than the meta with Rocks present. On a subjective level I have significantly less fun playing this metagame, I feel I have considerably less control over the outcome of the result than before and the matchup factors that are most likely to contribute to wins are of a style of gameplay that is one-sided and repetitive. On an objective level the metagame factor changes have severely concentrated the functional pool of effective mons and drastically shifted the balance of power towards the extremes wherein excessive bulk and uncounterable power have outsized effects on win rate, reducing player agency towards victory.

Remains true following WCOR. Matchup variance in my view is noticeable higher than pre-ban, taking away the main tool to punish passive play has drastically concentrated the balance of power and there are a significant number of Pokemon that are functionally unviable for their complete inability to put damage into common team gens. Games sometimes last longer, but just as many are over on preview because one overwhelming threat has no capacity to be played around.

On the subjective level high ladder is a ghost town compared to pre-Rocks ban where you were regularly getting immediate games on queue.

Second, removing Stealth Rock did not "fix" the format, it merely changed the centralizing figures of the format and shifted the balance of power accordingly. Flying is a notoriously strong defensive type across every generation, of which Stealth Rocks has been the primary check and balance on their power. Removing this tool has buffed Flying types across the board: without access to status any Flying type with Roost is now contributing to a severe constraint on the metagame, regularly creating unbreakable scenarios alongside any complementary type partner with reliable recovery. Dozens of primary progress makers in the tier, Grass and Fighting types specifically, have been severely debuffed from their inability to break an average Roost user (e.g. Scyther) and from being dominated by a bulky one (e.g. Ledian). Without access to reliable status and given their immunity to the remaining hazards, this single metagame shift has proved oppressive.


As an aside, I do not agree with the premise put forth by livid washed regarding the question of Flying types (e.g. Articuno) in the previous scenario. The base assumption of this premise is that Stealth Rock created a balance disparity with these Pokemon between games where Stealth Rock was generated and games in which Stealth Rock was not. In practice, this premise proves flawed: the presence of Stealth Rocks in the metagame actually reduced the instances of balance disparity specifically because of the frequency of Stealth Rock being generated to act as a check and balance upon them. Combinations of team generations that combined a Flying type Roost user, a complementary defensive Pokemon with reliable recovery, and no opposing Stealth Rocker were powerful without a doubt, but occur significantly more frequently in the current environment without Rocks where the only prerequisite is any combination of Roost user and partner, without Rocks in the picture to act as a penalty for these Power Spiking combinations. Removing Rocks was intended to reduce this variance, presumably with the tool of level balancing as a level to press, however level balancing is extremely unlikely to successfully effect this given the sheer scale of impact this change has had and its downstream effects - level balancing cannot account for the across the board buff to Flying type Pokemon or their frequency of generation attributed to their frequency of secondary Typing.

Furthermore, removing Stealth Rocks as a primary early game focus of play has not changed the structure of play in this fashion, merely shifted the focus to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Similarly to Rocks, any team which generates Spikes or Toxic Spikes has a significant edge over a team which does not. Although Stealth Rocks effects more targets and for more potential damage in the short term, the value of Spikes and Toxic Spikes is not lessened in comparison in this new meta because the nature of play has centralized around bulkier teams, longer games, and Flying types with Spikes immunity. The length of game itself has increased and provided more ground for Spikes to express a team generation disparity that provides an insurmountable advantage, just as the detractors of Rocks argued against it before. To briefly address Toxic Spikes, there is no question that it has alternative counterplay in the form of Poison type removal, however this increase in game longevity places additional constraint on this mechanism as a defensive measure. The value of Toxic Spikes makes opposing Poisons targetable and abusable in early game sequencing, and the value of the free and constant Poison from Tspikes is high enough that, even after such an early game sequence, removal of the opposing Poison is enough to convey an overwhelming advantage. The irony of Stealth Rocks as a metagame focus is that it simultaneously encourages and benefits from shorter games in the structures that benefit, whereas Spikes encourages games and benefits structures that play long (see ADV OU).

Obvious to anyone who has played the format or observed tournament play, Roost Flying and Bugs dominate defensively and are very difficult to punish, and games with Spikes or TSpikes on either team immediately centralize around them in exactly the same way claimed against Stealth Rock.

Thirdly, the removal of Stealth Rocks has significantly shifted the pool of viable Pokemon for the worse. Stealth Rock previously provided a use case for objectively bad Pokemon, like Corsola or Magcargo. Such Pokemon were fundamentally limited by their base stat total even when provided a level advantage, but used the level advantage to generate one or two free turns over the course of the game with which they could capitalize on with Stealth Rocks, giving them inherent value. Without this mechanism to create value they are left with ineffective STAB moves and the hope of long term value from a Toxic before being sacrificed. The value of their limited defensive niche has been eliminated along with Rocks, functionally increasing the pool of valueless Pokemon. Combined with the points previously made about the concentration of value to Flying types and the corresponding penalties to types like Grass and Fighting, it has been an observable effect of this change that the pool of 'viable' Pokemon (here defined as ones which can consistently make meaningful progress towards a victory) has been significantly reduced.

Self-explanatory.

Fourth, the removal of Stealth Rocks has directly reduced the effect of player skill on the outcome of a game. The removal of a reliable source of chip damage significantly penalizes defensive countermeasures to offensive threats. There is no penalty for hit and run tactics: if the opponent generates a team member that outspeeds your team and cannot be meaningfully resisted you have no tools or countermeasures to act against this overwhelming force and the opponent has no cost to preserving the threat at any potential source of danger. This holds true in similar fashion as previously discussed as counterplay against defensive Pokemon, specifically Flying types with Roost. The fundamental effect is that team generation matchup disadvantage is significantly harder to outplay without the ability to proactively double switch for tempo to punish a defensive double switch or mitigate an offensive threat. The concept of tempo itself is significantly lessened without this core mechanism for punishing passive, otherwise costless behaviour. The removal of Stealth Rocks is an appealing illusion: it pretends to offer counterplay by making switches easier while taking away that counterplay with the other hand by making teams harder to break. The impact of player skill is thus reduced when the advantage conveyed by the teambuilder is increased.

Overall the degree of skill expression in the tier has been actively harmed by removing Rocks. Hazards are fundamentally imbalanced until Defog is buffed in Gen 6, but much of the Gen 4 game balance revolves around the presence of the punish for passive play and otherwise overpowering Rocks-weak Pokemon.


If Stealth Rock is such an issue on tier balancing (for the record, I do not think it is) a more appropriate course of action would be pegging its distribution against an imposed cost in the teambuilder. Give it to weaker mons that need the boost in utility but otherwise struggle, reduce the level balancing for these Pokemon as necessary. Grant players access to the progress tool that has informed balancing and structure in Pokemon design all across this generation, but enforce a cost appropriate to the benefits it provides. But grant it to the players nonetheless, the cost of going without is much too high.

Supposedly this is not being entertained as an option, but I still think it would be a good balance direction.
 
A Cake Wearing A Hat said:
Well, here we are, suspecting Gen 4 Stealth Rock! We don't normally do suspects here in the land of Random Battles, and we don't plan to do many more after this. However, we have extenuating circumstances that make this suspect rather necessary. Gen 5 may receive its own suspect in the future once Gen 5 open ends.

Earlier in spring of 2026, the Random Battles development council brought up a motion and ultimately voted to remove Stealth Rock from gens 4 and 5 of Random Battles. Additionally, all levels of Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon and Stealth Rock setters were adjusted manually in an attempt to preliminarily balance Pokemon after the change. They did this on the grounds that Stealth Rock contributes too heavily to matchup imbalance; additionally, it upsets the level balancing of most Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon to the point where they are much stronger than they should be in games where the opponent does not get Stealth Rock, and they are much weaker than they should be in games where Stealth Rock is present. These are all valid under-the-hood concerns, and at the time the council believed it to be in their best interest to remove Stealth Rock altogether. However, several concerns quickly arose from the community. Many long-time Gen 4 players began to complain that the new format is much too slow, much too stall-centered, and perhaps even more imbalanced matchup-wise than when Stealth Rock was present; these concerns, too, are entirely valid. The play-feel of Gen 4 is drastically different in its current Stealth Rock-less state, and to many, this is a change for the worse.

So, we ask you, the community, to vote in this suspect test. Do we keep Stealth Rock banned, or should we unban it and revert all changes to levels and sets to what they were before action was initially taken?

Suspect Requirements
In order to qualify over the next two weeks via the ladder, you will need to hop on a new alt and reach at least 1650 ELO and at least 85% GXE simultaneously, with no outside assistance. The ladder suspect begins now and ends on September 27 at 11:59 PM Eastern time. You must use the "/linksmogon" command on your reqs account at some point in order to be verified.

Additionally, the following users have qualified for this suspect by default due to their tournament performance in Gen 4 Open and World Cup of Randbats:
Ghostilex R1C3M4N Diamonds_realm RainListener livid washed MichaelderBeste2 anankaios Gom

mind gaming Drifting Wigglytuff Drud 35Q71N Texas Cloverleaf blittius

If you believe you should be on either of these lists and that we are in error, please let us know.

Members of the Random Battles Development Council (including myself) do not automatically get reqs. Currently, the only council member with default reqs is livid washed due to his tournament performance.

Suspect Voting
The voting stage for this suspect will occur shortly after all reqs have been verified. Per a council vote on the threshold, a 60% supermajority will be required to keep Stealth Rock banned. In other words, if more than 40% of qualified voters want Stealth Rock back, it will be brought back, with no questions asked. If Stealth Rock is brought back, neither Stealth Rock nor Rapid Spin will be enforced on every team. However, they will be enforced on the individual Pokemon that can run them.

If you have obtained reqs, please be sure to vote.

This thread will remain open to CIVIL discussion and answering of questions about the suspect. Good luck laddering, everyone! Remember, ladder period ends Sunday, September 27.
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I'm new to Smogon, I don't understand what the reqs or /linksmogon bits are about. How do I do that?
 
Huge thanks to the council making the threshold 60%. This is the correct call for all suspects. In the hypothetical scenario that Sleep, which I fucking hate, is put up for suspect in Gen 4, I would still be saying that the threshold should be 60% to ban.

I'd planned to write up a massive thesis when the suspect started, but if >60% of voters really feel that no Rocks is better than Rocks, then I think I can live with that. So, to keep things (relatively) short:

Rocksless is worse than Rocks
I broadly agree with the points in Texas' post about Rocks vs No Rocks, and I'd like to think that I have one of the most qualified viewpoints on this issue given that:
a) I did not play Gen 4 before last year's WCOR, so it's not like I have several years of attachment to Rocks that I have to get over.​
b) I've had one of the best Gen 4 records across two WCORs, 1 with Rocks and 1 without.​
c) I'm quite active on the ladder, and it's likely that I've played more Rocksless games than anyone else.​


The unhealthy aspects of Rocks are very obvious, while the unhealthy aspects of No Rocks are more subtle while still being equal in magnitude
There are several people that did not initially have a strong opinion on Rocksless meta when the ban happened, but quickly disliked it once WCOR started and they were playing opponents that wouldn't just give up wincons. Two clear examples are actually about Gen 5 (1, 2), but there are examples from Gen 4, and the principle still holds anyway.

The ladder will not give many high quality games, so I'd caution anyone from basing their decision too much on their ladder experience.


A very obvious flaw in the suspect test
If the question being asked and answered by the suspect test is "is no Rocks better than Rocks?", then a very obvious issue is that players who have never played with Rocks -- or, if we were being less charitable, never played Rocks meta in a serious setting -- could qualify and vote. These players cannot possibly give an informed answer if they've never played Rocks, yet their vote will be equal to those that have competed at the highest levels in both metas.

I don't want to harp on about this too much, because a suspect test is still the correct procedure anyway. But this is a consequence of the "just try it out" approach, and I do not feel that it's a good one.

If you are a voter who has not had significant experience with Gen 4 before the Rocks ban, I would ask that you seriously consider arguments from both sides as a significant component of your decision.


"Gen 4 sucks"
At multiple points in this saga, pro-banners have alluded to some community perception that Gen 4 sucks as justification for the ban. If there's anything that will unduly influence the outcome of this vote, it's definitely word of mouth opinion with no actual basis.

I have some perspective that most of you do not, having been around for longer than almost anyone here. Almost all of the gens have taken their turn being deemed the worst or best gen by the "community," and not a single bit of it seems to be backed up with any reason.
- Back in 2018, Gen 6 was deemed a completely inferior Gen 7, which seems laughable now.
- Gen 1 was regarded as a bullshit para-crit-freeze festival, but thanks to literal years of attrition from dedicated mainers, it's become more highly viewed to the point of some people pointing to it as the most balanced gen. However, most of the dedicated Gen 1 players are now saying that Gen 1 actually needs to be played in Bo5. Most of them are saying that it's "community preference," whatever that means, but some are saying the quiet part out loud: that more games need to be played to counteract the RNG. This seems somewhat incompatible with it being the most balanced.
- Gen 8 was called the most balanced gen, even in an official capacity, for years, yet it recently underwent a revamp.
- Gen 3 was highly regarded when xGang was terrorizing it, but now that there's no longer an undisputed top dog, this seems to have abated.
- And just to illustrate the above point further, GSC OU was considered the most balanced and skillful tier in 2019, when Lavos set the best SPL (RBTT equivalent) record ever playing mostly GSC. However, just 2 years later, the winner of GSC Cup called it a coinflip tier, and this is the general opinion nowadays.

I think a lot of people will end up asking opinions from friends when deciding what to vote. If this describes you, really consider if what you're hearing has basis in experience playing the tier, or if it's just regurgitated "consensus" that's quite likely to change within the next year.
 
People can opine all they want about about how Stealth Rock is actually a 1000 IQ Rick and Mortyesque vehicle of skill expression; the data simply says otherwise. While yes, being able force as much hazard damage on your opponent as possible via proactive gameplay is a skill (though the skill floor of Stealth Rock is shockingly low, let’s be honest, it plays the game for you), the reality is that the winrate of rocks vs no rocks at a high level is so lopsided the only logical conclusion is that Stealth Rock is so impactful to the outcome of a game that it largely transcends the individual players. It’s not exactly hard to infer that when the player with rocks wins so much more often, it makes the actual gameplay skill of the players largely redundant. Saying otherwise is purely anecdotal and qualitative, and from that point of view as someone who has extensively played old and new Gen 4 Randbats, teamgen now feels more equitable and games play out at a more steady pace. Sometimes you still get fried on lead, the system mechanics of Gen 4 are always gonna lead to some volatility, but in my opinion it is much more playable.

I also have some disagreements with the idea that Stealth Rock is some sacrosanct part of Pokemon. It’s not like we’re banning crits, or paralysis. It is one move that isn’t even in every gen and which half the time you weren’t rolling in old DPP anyway. Were half of the games in the old format “fake pokemon” because you happened to lose the rocks coinflip? And the fear that Flying types become some unkillable demons is obviously not true, level balancing fundamentally stops that from happening. Ironically, it is much more true that Flying types (and other Rock weak Pokemon) were impossible to deal with in the old format because of how sporadic Stealth Rock generation artificially tanked their winrates, inflating their level.

I’m not saying this is a perfect solution. Bastiodon is unfortunately a casualty, he kinda sux now, but so many pokemon have become usable from this change that it’s worth it. clearly, I’m gonna vote to keep them banned. The format is imo better this way. But if the people vote otherwise and you get swept by a level 92 Scyther moving like prime LeBron because you lost a teamgen coinflip I don’t want to hear a single complaint.
 
Drifting said:
Saying otherwise is purely anecdotal and qualitative, and from that point of view as someone who has extensively played old and new Gen 4 Randbats, teamgen now feels more equitable and games play out at a more steady pace. Sometimes you still get fried on lead, the system mechanics of Gen 4 are always gonna lead to some volatility, but in my opinion it is much more playable.
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Literally how u can say this is equitable having Shedinja free to do anything and having no way to punish unless u get pursuit... or u get a lucky to get hazzards, but ignoring that i already said this tier/gen is all but fair due to the lack of consistent rock moves, yet a lot of bug/flying still get high levels. Without rocks this tier is just MU-RNG, U might dislike Stealth Rocks thats subjetive, but it created more oportunities to engage aganist certain matches, without then how u can deal with fast mons without risking too much at the attempt, without then just see the WCOR games a lot of them were just won by having a better MU or just having the right mon at the moment, somehow no Rocks made the tier a unplayable joke.
 
the flying/bug/shedinja/etc thing being parroted as an anti-ban point is just hilarious. like this to me is the entire reason SR need to go. mons that took 50% on switchin (and shedinja) were consistently either amazing or unplayable purely based on whether your opponent rolled rocks. without rocks, if level balancing is doing its job, this is easily fixed.

the notion that rolling stealth rocks in teamgen is "counterplay to flying types" is just so silly, that's not counterplay, you're not making a play, you have literally zero agency in whether this happens or not. it is clear that the existence of SR kept pokemon weak to it perpetually in a state of "either wildly overpowered or wildly underpowered, depending on what the opponent teamgenned".

you cannot tell me with a straight face that you cannot outplay a post-SR-ban vespiquen hard switching on your grass type, but you COULD outplay those vespiquens when SR were around. it just makes no sense. the counterplay is the same (click the coverage move / double switch something on the vespiquen), but that counterplay actually does something now because the vespiquen is lvl96 instead of lvl100. it takes more damage, deals less, it generally trades fairly with other pokemon. if it is still overpowered because of access to roost, then level balancing should fix that and keep knocking her down to lvl95, 94 etc. until it's all good.

if you want to argue greater points about the pace of the game - totally fine! more roost pokemon, chain effects on the meta etcetc, all totally reasonable, i'm listening. but pointing directly at the flying types themselves as problematic and saying "we have no counterplay now!" is just ?????? brother what did you think you had before? that wasn't counterplay that was just teamgen. you weren't doing anything. you were rolling and then clicking the one button that solved the situation, or, if you did not roll it, you were in gamestates that are exactly the same as today - except much much worse due to the fliers being wildly overleveled.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
I will be voting to unban Rocks. My rationale from earlier in the season still holds true, and will be reposted below for visibility.

---

First, the meta with the removal of Rocks is significantly worse than the meta with Rocks present. On a subjective level I have significantly less fun playing this metagame, I feel I have considerably less control over the outcome of the result than before and the matchup factors that are most likely to contribute to wins are of a style of gameplay that is one-sided and repetitive. On an objective level the metagame factor changes have severely concentrated the functional pool of effective mons and drastically shifted the balance of power towards the extremes wherein excessive bulk and uncounterable power have outsized effects on win rate, reducing player agency towards victory.

Remains true following WCOR. Matchup variance in my view is noticeable higher than pre-ban, taking away the main tool to punish passive play has drastically concentrated the balance of power and there are a significant number of Pokemon that are functionally unviable for their complete inability to put damage into common team gens. Games sometimes last longer, but just as many are over on preview because one overwhelming threat has no capacity to be played around.

On the subjective level high ladder is a ghost town compared to pre-Rocks ban where you were regularly getting immediate games on queue.

Second, removing Stealth Rock did not "fix" the format, it merely changed the centralizing figures of the format and shifted the balance of power accordingly. Flying is a notoriously strong defensive type across every generation, of which Stealth Rocks has been the primary check and balance on their power. Removing this tool has buffed Flying types across the board: without access to status any Flying type with Roost is now contributing to a severe constraint on the metagame, regularly creating unbreakable scenarios alongside any complementary type partner with reliable recovery. Dozens of primary progress makers in the tier, Grass and Fighting types specifically, have been severely debuffed from their inability to break an average Roost user (e.g. Scyther) and from being dominated by a bulky one (e.g. Ledian). Without access to reliable status and given their immunity to the remaining hazards, this single metagame shift has proved oppressive.


As an aside, I do not agree with the premise put forth by livid washed regarding the question of Flying types (e.g. Articuno) in the previous scenario. The base assumption of this premise is that Stealth Rock created a balance disparity with these Pokemon between games where Stealth Rock was generated and games in which Stealth Rock was not. In practice, this premise proves flawed: the presence of Stealth Rocks in the metagame actually reduced the instances of balance disparity specifically because of the frequency of Stealth Rock being generated to act as a check and balance upon them. Combinations of team generations that combined a Flying type Roost user, a complementary defensive Pokemon with reliable recovery, and no opposing Stealth Rocker were powerful without a doubt, but occur significantly more frequently in the current environment without Rocks where the only prerequisite is any combination of Roost user and partner, without Rocks in the picture to act as a penalty for these Power Spiking combinations. Removing Rocks was intended to reduce this variance, presumably with the tool of level balancing as a level to press, however level balancing is extremely unlikely to successfully effect this given the sheer scale of impact this change has had and its downstream effects - level balancing cannot account for the across the board buff to Flying type Pokemon or their frequency of generation attributed to their frequency of secondary Typing.

Furthermore, removing Stealth Rocks as a primary early game focus of play has not changed the structure of play in this fashion, merely shifted the focus to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Similarly to Rocks, any team which generates Spikes or Toxic Spikes has a significant edge over a team which does not. Although Stealth Rocks effects more targets and for more potential damage in the short term, the value of Spikes and Toxic Spikes is not lessened in comparison in this new meta because the nature of play has centralized around bulkier teams, longer games, and Flying types with Spikes immunity. The length of game itself has increased and provided more ground for Spikes to express a team generation disparity that provides an insurmountable advantage, just as the detractors of Rocks argued against it before. To briefly address Toxic Spikes, there is no question that it has alternative counterplay in the form of Poison type removal, however this increase in game longevity places additional constraint on this mechanism as a defensive measure. The value of Toxic Spikes makes opposing Poisons targetable and abusable in early game sequencing, and the value of the free and constant Poison from Tspikes is high enough that, even after such an early game sequence, removal of the opposing Poison is enough to convey an overwhelming advantage. The irony of Stealth Rocks as a metagame focus is that it simultaneously encourages and benefits from shorter games in the structures that benefit, whereas Spikes encourages games and benefits structures that play long (see ADV OU).

Obvious to anyone who has played the format or observed tournament play, Roost Flying and Bugs dominate defensively and are very difficult to punish, and games with Spikes or TSpikes on either team immediately centralize around them in exactly the same way claimed against Stealth Rock.

Thirdly, the removal of Stealth Rocks has significantly shifted the pool of viable Pokemon for the worse. Stealth Rock previously provided a use case for objectively bad Pokemon, like Corsola or Magcargo. Such Pokemon were fundamentally limited by their base stat total even when provided a level advantage, but used the level advantage to generate one or two free turns over the course of the game with which they could capitalize on with Stealth Rocks, giving them inherent value. Without this mechanism to create value they are left with ineffective STAB moves and the hope of long term value from a Toxic before being sacrificed. The value of their limited defensive niche has been eliminated along with Rocks, functionally increasing the pool of valueless Pokemon. Combined with the points previously made about the concentration of value to Flying types and the corresponding penalties to types like Grass and Fighting, it has been an observable effect of this change that the pool of 'viable' Pokemon (here defined as ones which can consistently make meaningful progress towards a victory) has been significantly reduced.

Self-explanatory.

Fourth, the removal of Stealth Rocks has directly reduced the effect of player skill on the outcome of a game. The removal of a reliable source of chip damage significantly penalizes defensive countermeasures to offensive threats. There is no penalty for hit and run tactics: if the opponent generates a team member that outspeeds your team and cannot be meaningfully resisted you have no tools or countermeasures to act against this overwhelming force and the opponent has no cost to preserving the threat at any potential source of danger. This holds true in similar fashion as previously discussed as counterplay against defensive Pokemon, specifically Flying types with Roost. The fundamental effect is that team generation matchup disadvantage is significantly harder to outplay without the ability to proactively double switch for tempo to punish a defensive double switch or mitigate an offensive threat. The concept of tempo itself is significantly lessened without this core mechanism for punishing passive, otherwise costless behaviour. The removal of Stealth Rocks is an appealing illusion: it pretends to offer counterplay by making switches easier while taking away that counterplay with the other hand by making teams harder to break. The impact of player skill is thus reduced when the advantage conveyed by the teambuilder is increased.

Overall the degree of skill expression in the tier has been actively harmed by removing Rocks. Hazards are fundamentally imbalanced until Defog is buffed in Gen 6, but much of the Gen 4 game balance revolves around the presence of the punish for passive play and otherwise overpowering Rocks-weak Pokemon.


If Stealth Rock is such an issue on tier balancing (for the record, I do not think it is) a more appropriate course of action would be pegging its distribution against an imposed cost in the teambuilder. Give it to weaker mons that need the boost in utility but otherwise struggle, reduce the level balancing for these Pokemon as necessary. Grant players access to the progress tool that has informed balancing and structure in Pokemon design all across this generation, but enforce a cost appropriate to the benefits it provides. But grant it to the players nonetheless, the cost of going without is much too high.

Supposedly this is not being entertained as an option, but I still think it would be a good balance direction.
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Bro cooked, excellent post, summarized it neatly what I ranted about in numerous posts. As seen in different games, remove a tool that keeps monsters in check, and the people that want to win will find a way to optimize to gain an edge and oppress the rest.
Make rocks great again!
 
betathunder said:
How is this a bad thing? Shouldn’t we want to develop a format that favors players who can optimize a small advantage into a larger one and hold that advantage for the rest of the game?
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This works when you have 0 rng, not when crits, misses, statuses etc affect the outcomes as much as in gen 4, or pokemon overall as a game. I explained it more thoroughly, drew parallels to chess, league, as complete opposites of no updates to a game and pure skill expression with a constant changing nerf/buff to multiple aspects of the game.
But yeah the sentence that really echoes is the ladder is dead, has been since rocks got removed, I wait ages for a game and the elo range is as severe as -300 sometimes.
If that skill expression came from predicting a t bolt and subbing a ground type, or electivire for a +1 speed, I'm all for it, but the skill expression is get spikes/ t spikes, toxic his team and stall with bird mons/ bulky water types with recovery. That is not skill expression, that is horrible team generation. Said it immediately that pressure Articuno with roost among others would be nearly invincible without rocks and especially when paired with another bulky mon, no way of breaking those teams down.
 
Knele97 said:
but the skill expression is get spikes/ t spikes, toxic his team and stall with bird mons/ bulky water types with recovery. That is not skill expression, that is horrible team generation.
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I think myself and a lot of the others in the pro ban camp just echo this exact statement, but replace "spikes/tspikes/toxic" with "stealth rock".

Texas's argument of "shifting the overcentralizing elements onto a different mon/strategy, arguably for the worse" makes sense, and I think there is weight to that argument. However, I think the comparison of each of these strategies/gamestates/whatever definition you use is subjective at best and, from understanding, devolves to picking between the perceived lesser of two evils.

I do find it interesting while some pro-rocks people point to the increased gametime means that passive mons are weighted to be stronger, others (duc) point to setup sweepers also being more strong. IMO if everything is deemed to be overpowered, this just sounds like a level inflation issue that can be resolved over course of level balancing. The comment about ladder being dead might just be because the most vocal pro-rocks individuals were the ones who laddered the most, and their disdain for the new format has driven down activity. Regardless, dead ladder actually hurts level balancing and might be why this new meta has felt/continues to feel unbalanced.

Wiggly's comment about the suspect being flawed since people cannot compare to pre-ban is valid, and perhaps this suspect may need to be repeated in a year so. Having a suspect on an unoptimized pool of mons is not ideal, but we are doing the best with what we have right now.

As I continue to ladder for reqs I'll post more concrete thoughts on my experiences. I will say however, that if rocks are unbanned, I would rather the % chance that a mon with rocks has rocks should not be higher than 50%, outside of specific circumstances. While having rocks might be better than no rocks, I still believe that guaranteeing rocks on all mons that have it was detrimental to the meta, and would prefer its appearance rate being drastically lower than it was pre-ban.
 
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betathunder said:
Wiggly's comment about the suspect being flawed since people cannot compare to pre-ban is valid, and perhaps this suspect may need to be repeated in a year so. Having a suspect on an unoptimized pool of mons is not ideal, but we are doing the best with what we have right now.
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I feel is a bit too late to think on that, so now let's focus on what will happen from now, personally i would vouch for a enforced Rapid Spin more.
 
A Cake Wearing A Hat said:
. If Stealth Rock is brought back, neither Stealth Rock nor Rapid Spin will be enforced on every team.
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Damm u captcha said:
I feel is a bit too late to think on that, so now let's focus on what will happen from now, personally i would vouch for a enforced Rapid Spin more.
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Im remaining impartial as I can here and acting as mostly an arbiter, but I will be pointing this out to those who are attempting to speculate.
 
A Cake Wearing A Hat said:
Suspect Requirements
In order to qualify over the next two weeks via the ladder, you will need to hop on a new alt and reach at least 1650 ELO and at least 85% GXE simultaneously, with no outside assistance. The ladder suspect begins now and ends on September 27 at 11:59 PM Eastern time. You must use the "/linksmogon" command on your reqs account at some point in order to be verified.
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does it have to be right after you start your new alt account or can be after you get reqs?
 
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