H-arcanine gives me a headache as a froslass player.
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★ VGC Reg M-C Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RauSakura
- Start date
HArc also makes me happy as a Froslass player.
Removes so many things that Froslass hates.
HArc is also just very good with MRaptor in general. Takes great advantage of Tailwind (if you are running it), and helps deal with Dengo, Mence, Floette, Zard on top of Froslass.
:golisopod mega: :torkoal: :baxcalibur mega: :gallade: :indeedee f: :milotic:
Been playing with this TR team which was at first a semi TR but then morphed into a full TR once I realised that twind was lowkey bad on here LOL.
I honestly do really love m-pod, its single target damage is insane and allows it to really lock down certain targets very easily. But I think setup sets just kinda suck. I think the initial damage is more then fine enough and considering its weaknesses, you don't always wanna stay in as you really benefit from switching it out and saving it for endgame where it can kinda just wall enough things to win. Thus, I think utility options such as wide guard, snarl, taunt or scald even (base 70 special attack btw, it ain't even truely horrible damage on some targets LOL). It allows it to be a team player for its partners, and can even help itself (for instance, wide guard protects it vs heat wave to allow a partner to KO, which can be incredible).
Mega bax is also pretty great mon, ice shard is a godsend in this economy with all the mences, rillas, chomps and even yard's running around. Obv struggles a lot into steels if you don't pack a ground move which is difficult to fit I found, but not only does +2 glaive rush do so much damage, but you can easily pair it with steel lures and checks.
Rest of the team is pretty standard I feel? I had ancient power torkoal cause fuck yard LOL, and ice beam milo to snipe rillabooms and mences if needed.
This meta feels much more different compared to the difference between Reg m-a and Reg m-b. Idk if its good different just yet (rillaboom is so annoying to deal with) but it is different enough, and that feels very good.
Been playing with this TR team which was at first a semi TR but then morphed into a full TR once I realised that twind was lowkey bad on here LOL.
I honestly do really love m-pod, its single target damage is insane and allows it to really lock down certain targets very easily. But I think setup sets just kinda suck. I think the initial damage is more then fine enough and considering its weaknesses, you don't always wanna stay in as you really benefit from switching it out and saving it for endgame where it can kinda just wall enough things to win. Thus, I think utility options such as wide guard, snarl, taunt or scald even (base 70 special attack btw, it ain't even truely horrible damage on some targets LOL). It allows it to be a team player for its partners, and can even help itself (for instance, wide guard protects it vs heat wave to allow a partner to KO, which can be incredible).
Mega bax is also pretty great mon, ice shard is a godsend in this economy with all the mences, rillas, chomps and even yard's running around. Obv struggles a lot into steels if you don't pack a ground move which is difficult to fit I found, but not only does +2 glaive rush do so much damage, but you can easily pair it with steel lures and checks.
Rest of the team is pretty standard I feel? I had ancient power torkoal cause fuck yard LOL, and ice beam milo to snipe rillabooms and mences if needed.
This meta feels much more different compared to the difference between Reg m-a and Reg m-b. Idk if its good different just yet (rillaboom is so annoying to deal with) but it is different enough, and that feels very good.
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I just found out that Raptor was used on a Psyspam team that did super well in a recent VR tournament so ignore this lol.
An underrated mon at the moment is Mega Baxcalibur. I've had a lot of early ladder success with a bulky offense team focused around positioning for it to get off big nuke shots, finished my MB climb on a six win streak around 1700 ELO and only lost two games at all along the way. Rillaboom / Incinerorar / Milotic provide Grassy Terrain, Fake Out support, and speed control to give Bax space to play, while Dengo and Sneasler patch matchup weaknesses and give complementary damage. Mega Bax is highly underrated for it's overall bulk, so you can very comfortably play for double ups feeling safe if you need to take a hit in the process. Once Bax has opened a hole, it's light work to clean up afterwards.
Three attacks Bax chosen for max damage and coverage, the hit into Gambit is necessary in my opinion. 21 speed passes Mega Mence after an Icy Wind, with a free point thrown in for mons creeping that tier like Basculegion. 6 Adamant is plenty for OHKO and 2HKO rolls, you do 70% to standard Milotic for instance and OHKO 32 HP Mega Garde, the only place additional power can come up is turning Icicle Crash into an OHKO on very bulky Rillaboom, but Rilla doesn't threaten Bax anyway so its not a bad thing to leave it on field. 29/10 bulk gives it ridiculous phys bulk, you live Adamant Sneasler Close Combat and +3 Gambit Sucker Punch among others, +1 Arch also fails to KO with Dragon Pulse up to 10+ spatk, and even Hisuian Arcanine is only 18% to OHKO with Head Smash (two points, one from speed and one from attack bring this down to 12.5%).
Rilla/Incin/Milo are all fairly standard, with a speedy Incin chosen to Throat Chop Sylveon before it can Hyper Voice and Miracle Seed 25 Adamant Rillaboom chosen for nuking options into PsySpam. Milotic is a strong pick into Salamence comps. Scarf Dengo does a lot to help with Fairies, Fighters, and the Rain matchup, as well as providing some special damage. Thunderbolt specifically helps with Mega Raptor as well as Pelipper, and Power Gem picks up slack vs Mega Zard Y. Sneasler provides some additional speed control, a strong Close Combat into Archaludon which is the biggest threat to the team, and Coaching support which really puts the damage from Mega Bax over the top, as well as general support for Milotic or Rillaboom.
Overall the team is very resilient and skillful with the positioning tools available and Mega Bax is an absolute house as the ball of stats that it is. PsySpam is an easy matchup with the sheer damage output into the abusers from Bax/Incin/Rilla. Hard TR is favored for the same reason as well as having the tools to stall it out. Rain is a difficult matchup as Archaludon is the biggest threat to manage, requiring careful timing on the double ups, Mega Golisipod is tricky too but much more manageable between Intim/Flare Blitz/Milotic/Dengo, it generally drops is 3 to 4 hits without doing too much back. Mence slop is a pretty even matchup as both sides are running similar Pokemon, but Bax hits harder overall so good turns swing harder in your favour and Dengo is an X factor resisting all of Rilla/Mence/Sneasler moves as well as threatening Basc. Yard teams are generally a favored matchup as MegaBax simply overpowers most of what you see and Heat Wave is discouraged, but Floette teams are the second biggest threat as Bax does not like to see fast fairy damage, the matchup is manageable as Rillaboom/Sneasler/Dengo are all very threatening in return but requires careful positioning to get the most from Bax.
Three attacks Bax chosen for max damage and coverage, the hit into Gambit is necessary in my opinion. 21 speed passes Mega Mence after an Icy Wind, with a free point thrown in for mons creeping that tier like Basculegion. 6 Adamant is plenty for OHKO and 2HKO rolls, you do 70% to standard Milotic for instance and OHKO 32 HP Mega Garde, the only place additional power can come up is turning Icicle Crash into an OHKO on very bulky Rillaboom, but Rilla doesn't threaten Bax anyway so its not a bad thing to leave it on field. 29/10 bulk gives it ridiculous phys bulk, you live Adamant Sneasler Close Combat and +3 Gambit Sucker Punch among others, +1 Arch also fails to KO with Dragon Pulse up to 10+ spatk, and even Hisuian Arcanine is only 18% to OHKO with Head Smash (two points, one from speed and one from attack bring this down to 12.5%).
Rilla/Incin/Milo are all fairly standard, with a speedy Incin chosen to Throat Chop Sylveon before it can Hyper Voice and Miracle Seed 25 Adamant Rillaboom chosen for nuking options into PsySpam. Milotic is a strong pick into Salamence comps. Scarf Dengo does a lot to help with Fairies, Fighters, and the Rain matchup, as well as providing some special damage. Thunderbolt specifically helps with Mega Raptor as well as Pelipper, and Power Gem picks up slack vs Mega Zard Y. Sneasler provides some additional speed control, a strong Close Combat into Archaludon which is the biggest threat to the team, and Coaching support which really puts the damage from Mega Bax over the top, as well as general support for Milotic or Rillaboom.
Overall the team is very resilient and skillful with the positioning tools available and Mega Bax is an absolute house as the ball of stats that it is. PsySpam is an easy matchup with the sheer damage output into the abusers from Bax/Incin/Rilla. Hard TR is favored for the same reason as well as having the tools to stall it out. Rain is a difficult matchup as Archaludon is the biggest threat to manage, requiring careful timing on the double ups, Mega Golisipod is tricky too but much more manageable between Intim/Flare Blitz/Milotic/Dengo, it generally drops is 3 to 4 hits without doing too much back. Mence slop is a pretty even matchup as both sides are running similar Pokemon, but Bax hits harder overall so good turns swing harder in your favour and Dengo is an X factor resisting all of Rilla/Mence/Sneasler moves as well as threatening Basc. Yard teams are generally a favored matchup as MegaBax simply overpowers most of what you see and Heat Wave is discouraged, but Floette teams are the second biggest threat as Bax does not like to see fast fairy damage, the matchup is manageable as Rillaboom/Sneasler/Dengo are all very threatening in return but requires careful positioning to get the most from Bax.
I think everyone probably thought Raptor was gonna be heavily crept out by the presence of Mence, but in retrospect of recent results I think a big part of what makes it good is how it’s kind of a middle ground between Mence and Sneasler.
Ultimately, I think Roost Raptor and Tailwind Raptor tries to do different things, and it makes sense in context to why they are being used.
Roost Raptor is kinda simple, it's a Fighting type with great longevity, which allows it to pair with teams that desperately need the removal of Dark types, which is literally the description of PsySpam. I think one of the recent high-placing PsySpam teams was just 3 Psychics + 3 Fighting (Sneasler/Raptor/Ape). It also just kinda solos Sand.
I think the more interesting team that uses MRaptor over Mence is Rilla/HArc/Dengo stuff which MDB and other players have been topping with. And I think it comes down to how Raptor is a Fighting types with Tailwind, which is very unique, and exactly the type of role compression such a team would want.
Rilla/HArc/Dengo was a thing from Reg H, and back then, if you want to bring HArc, you basically have to pick between having Fighting coverage from Sneasler or Tailwind from Dnite, so you win some, you lose some. In the transition form Reg H to M-C, it would seem "obvious" to upgrade Dnite to MMence (which myself and many other players did), but in retrospect MRaptor just makes perfect sense as an option instead of MMence because now you can have your cake and eat it too by effectively cramming Fighting coverage and TW in the same slot. Then as a bonus you can free up the Sneasler slot for something like Sylveon or Kingambit that can help you solve other potentially problematic matchups.
I feel Baxcalibur is probably one of the few megas that got the short end of a few things. The fact that it has to be either a setup balance sweeper or a trick room pokemon is kinda makes it feel iffy to use.
Eh I think it’s fine. Better than most of the Zs (including probably chomp)
chomp z may be better than it, but the difference is less than the difference between base chomp and base bax. I think mega bax j perfectly fine
chomp z may be better than it, but the difference is less than the difference between base chomp and base bax. I think mega bax j perfectly fine
Only seen Bax a couple times but it seems super scary with Snow (just the Def boost from the weather is enough tbh) and/or Screens support. A strong Ice Shard is also pretty valuable in this format if only for Mega Salamence.
I don't think it'll be a meta-defining threat but at minimum a solid B-ranked mon worth looking out for.
I don't think it'll be a meta-defining threat but at minimum a solid B-ranked mon worth looking out for.
A Pokémon I think people should look to during this reg is Glimmora. Either version tbh.
While Glim doesn't benefit from every addition and change to the meta (Psyspam sucks), it (mostly) loves Rillaboom existing. Earthquake and normal Garchomp are significantly less common for the moment thanks to Grassy Surge, Toxic Debris is a great way to deny the opponent from getting the recovery, it has a good match up against Rillaboom and some of the mons it enables, loves Rillaboom also discouraging the use of others like Basc, Spikey Shield is really nice to punish Fake Out cycling, and it's a decent Mence answer.
I don't foresee Glimmora becoming a grade A mon or anything — especially since there are other things that got better that it hates like Gholdengo — but it could be way more effective now than before.
While Glim doesn't benefit from every addition and change to the meta (Psyspam sucks), it (mostly) loves Rillaboom existing. Earthquake and normal Garchomp are significantly less common for the moment thanks to Grassy Surge, Toxic Debris is a great way to deny the opponent from getting the recovery, it has a good match up against Rillaboom and some of the mons it enables, loves Rillaboom also discouraging the use of others like Basc, Spikey Shield is really nice to punish Fake Out cycling, and it's a decent Mence answer.
I don't foresee Glimmora becoming a grade A mon or anything — especially since there are other things that got better that it hates like Gholdengo — but it could be way more effective now than before.
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Earlier this week we were discussing Mence going full special and dropping Edge and MRaptor’s surprisingly rise in viability, and for some reason I never connected the dots between the two.
After playing with Gholdengo stuff for the most part of the week with Mence and then making the switch to Raptor, I’m starting to rethink the niche that Raptor has is actually incredible.
Back in M-B I never had the most success with Raptor because I thought of it as a Close Combat machine with Brave Bird for coverage. I would feel bad every time I clicked BB, and especially so if I have dropped Roost for TW.
In M-C, spamming nuclear Double Edges with Mence is starting to get me to realise that Raptor does the exact same thing with Tailwind and Brave Bird, can break Harc and KG with CC, is not Rock-weak, and can sometimes be used without necessarily Megaing. Of course, the big one is that it's immune to Intimidate, which means it makes all 3 non-Mega Fake Out users extremely uncomfortable.
Specifically on the Ghold team, MRaptor feels even more incredible because MRaptor + Gholdengo is able to pseudo-Trap Incineroar from being able to click Parting Shot, and Flare Blitz tickles Dengo after Seed and Intimidate, where Mence in the same spot would just get Parting Shot on. And as previously mentioned it replaces Sneasler, hence freeing up the Seed for Dengo or something like Milotic.
I think Mence is still an overall stronger mon for obvious reasons, and I still think Double Edge is a very strong option on it, especially beside Coaching Sneasler, but I'm starting to better understand the decision of dropping it for Draco because Raptor is kinda competing with it for the role of a physical Flying nuker.
On a completely unrelated note, I got demolished by this a moment ago just as I was writing this.
32 SpA Aerilate Salamence-Mega Helping Hand Hyper Beam vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Froslass-Mega: 219-258 (126.5 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
After playing with Gholdengo stuff for the most part of the week with Mence and then making the switch to Raptor, I’m starting to rethink the niche that Raptor has is actually incredible.
Back in M-B I never had the most success with Raptor because I thought of it as a Close Combat machine with Brave Bird for coverage. I would feel bad every time I clicked BB, and especially so if I have dropped Roost for TW.
In M-C, spamming nuclear Double Edges with Mence is starting to get me to realise that Raptor does the exact same thing with Tailwind and Brave Bird, can break Harc and KG with CC, is not Rock-weak, and can sometimes be used without necessarily Megaing. Of course, the big one is that it's immune to Intimidate, which means it makes all 3 non-Mega Fake Out users extremely uncomfortable.
Specifically on the Ghold team, MRaptor feels even more incredible because MRaptor + Gholdengo is able to pseudo-Trap Incineroar from being able to click Parting Shot, and Flare Blitz tickles Dengo after Seed and Intimidate, where Mence in the same spot would just get Parting Shot on. And as previously mentioned it replaces Sneasler, hence freeing up the Seed for Dengo or something like Milotic.
I think Mence is still an overall stronger mon for obvious reasons, and I still think Double Edge is a very strong option on it, especially beside Coaching Sneasler, but I'm starting to better understand the decision of dropping it for Draco because Raptor is kinda competing with it for the role of a physical Flying nuker.
On a completely unrelated note, I got demolished by this a moment ago just as I was writing this.
32 SpA Aerilate Salamence-Mega Helping Hand Hyper Beam vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Froslass-Mega: 219-258 (126.5 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Surprised Hyper Beam isn't slightly more common on Mence tbh. It has a similar use case to Sylveon as single target special Flying nuke. Probably due to Draco being an option.
This tier list making me realize that I haven't seen a single Whimsicott or Sinistcha on ladder lol. Still climbing out, though (been busy), so maybe once I get back into MB I'll see them.
hey guys i heard mega garchomp z was making some waves over here what's up with that
It top cut the first VR tournament since it has a good match-up into Mega Salamence and a better match-up into Rillaboom than vanilla. But also probably new toy syndrome.
I'm personally not a fan of it since the Mence match-up boils down to "don't miss Draco Meteor and hope Tailwind isn't up".
Hyper Beam is actually a pretty significant power boost over Draco as well, so maybe it will start to get some traction if someone with more media presence tops a big tournament with it. I took a quick look at Hyper Beam Mence on Labmaus and it seems that it actually has some notable results.
According to Pikalytics, Whims and Sini are still top 20 usage, though I've only seen like 2 Whims and no Sini in several days of MB for some reason. Mence being the new best TW user probably gave it stiff competition, and Sneasler being FOTM probably does it no favour either.
Sini I honestly don't know why. On Floette teams it probably got replaced by Rilla, on Sand it probably got replaced by Indd (as a redirection user) or Rilla (as a Water/Ground resist), and on Delphox teams it should still be good, but I have absolutely no idea why Delphox teams fell off the face of the earth. It's decent into all of Mence, Zard, Floette, Dengo, Garde, Froslass, Rilla and Gengar, and for some reason it's just not showing results. I would honestly be massively surprised if it (Delphox) continues to be this domant in terms of presence.
I used it and… surprisingly Mega Garchomp Z is kind of good in my opinion.
It isn’t a meta mon or necessary to run it over base Garchomp to take up a mega slot but it works on some teams.
Pure Dragon, losing ground means losing 4x weakness to ice, means losing ground stab which is the reason why this thing is so threatening but it have good coverage.
151 speed is ridiculous, ties with Mega Lucario Z, Mega Absol Z( i haven’t seen a single soul use this mega); faster than Scarf Basculegion, regular Sneasler but can’t outspeed +32 Spe Scarf Adamant Garchomp reaching 231 Speed > 223 Speed of +32 Timid M-Garchomp Z.
32+ SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Earth Power vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 136-162 (65.7 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Not a great start
32+ SpA Garchomp-Mega-Z Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 2 SpD Rillaboom: 169-199 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Also not great against fairy since it only have Iron head
Destroy M-Salamence with Draco Meteor, M-Golisopod with Flamethrower, M-Lucario Z and other mons that it have a good match up against and when it outspeed so many thing maybe 2HKO isn’t that bad. Pair with Sand Rush Excadrill for Earthquake and Tyranitar. Great for surprise to hit em with Stab Draco
With a mega like this, we need to get wacky and creative so i will present some ideas
Contrary Malamar Skill Swap into M-ChompZ
Politoed or Pepliper with Surf M-ChompZ and a partner like Heliolisk, Toxicroak and Vaporeon
I would love to know more idea!
Mega Chomp Z is basically a high risk; medium reward type of pokemon. It plays similar to Latios and Latias with coverage that's good enough to fit in the meta.
ChompZ is what I consider a matchup fixing mega. It has a very favourable matchup into Zard, Raichu and Mence and decent to good coverage into just about everything else.
When you are building around something like Floette, Metagross or Pod that would struggle into Zard or something like Zard that would struggle with Raichu and Mence, you can just bring ChompZ and win all those matchups comfortably.
While Draco is the big nuke button, I think Dragon Pulse is actually strong enough for what ChompZ really excels in, and Draco is more of a means to extend Chomp’s reach into other matchups. I would expect Dragon Pulse to rise up in usage as the meta settles because it still OHKOs Mence very readily, much like how Dnite also started with Draco and leaned into Pulse
I drew some parallel to Dragapult back in M-B, because Life Orb Pult has close to the same damage output and a very similar speed tier, but I think the main difference is really the access to Earth Power and Power Gem that allows Chomp to hit a bunch more key targets
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As a side note about ZardY, here’s some food for thought for everyone. Now that the ZardY mirror is less common, what do you run in the third move? Do you run Ancient Power still to hit both Mence and Zard? Do you run Pulse to hit Mence? Do you run Solar Beam and be bad into both but good into Ttar? Or do you run Flamethrower / Overheat / Blast Burn as a way to take down Pod in rain?
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Draco Meteor drops 2 stage of SpA and have a chance to miss( i once miss my Draco twice and it cost me a win) in the long match can cause some trouble so Dragon Pulse will replace Draco later on.
About Zard Y, i start using it pretty late compare to everyone else and i rarely ever run Solar Beam. I use Ancient Power quite a lot, and i think i will still keep it to hit Fire and Flying type. I will drop Weather Ball for Overheat to 100% OHKO M-Golisopod. Blast Burn doesn’t drops in SpA but it cost a turn so idk.
I will start using Zard Y again since the reason i drop it because of its 4x weak to Rock that make it hard to manage.
The Zard Y question was meant to be a rhetorical question on the fact that Charizard actually has a more flexible 3rd slot now that the mirror is less common, rather than a targeted question that requires an definite answer.
I've already seen some teams start to run Pulse or Overheat on the third slot, and while many players are probably tired of Zard Y already, I think it's actually pretty interesting to see Zard constantly swapping out the third move to adapt to the meta.
I'm not sure Dragon Pulse is even worth running on Zard Y. It can never OHKO Mence unless it's -SpD, plus you have to position correctly to even get a safe hit in and not risk being deleted by Double-Edge. At that point I'd rather have my Mence answer be a different Pokémon.
I feel like double Fire STAB (Heat Wave + single target of your choice) is mandatory on Zard right now to prevent it from being walled by Wide Guard, plus Overheat or Blast Burn could be used to delete something important on the enemy team. I would probably drop Solar Beam if anything for the utility slot, especially since you can rely on Rillaboom for Grass damage.
I feel like double Fire STAB (Heat Wave + single target of your choice) is mandatory on Zard right now to prevent it from being walled by Wide Guard, plus Overheat or Blast Burn could be used to delete something important on the enemy team. I would probably drop Solar Beam if anything for the utility slot, especially since you can rely on Rillaboom for Grass damage.
I would mostly concur that Dpulse is probably not worth it, but the idea is that Heat Wave into Dpulse is able to consistently KO where Ancient Power doesn’t, plus it’s also kinda OK into Chomp, and while I don’t run it myself, I see some using it for that purpose
I think the best ZardY team now is SunRain, who just runs Hurricane on slot 3, but I personally have recently built a TR team with ZardY, which uses Overheat, but it’s still interesting that the third slot is actually so adaptable depending on the team
I just used this strategy on Champions yesterday, i learned it from Haydunn and oh my Arceus every single Slash is a crit, every Hyper Voice is a double crit.
I pair my M-Salamence with Unburden Sceptile
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