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Announcement I'm Still Standing - Vullaby Suspect Test

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Greedy_eb

is a Community Leaderis a Metagame Resource Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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:vullaby: :vullaby: :vullaby:

The LC Council has decided to suspect test Vullaby.

A long time controversial piece of Little Cup's history and a staple of the tier since Generation 5, Vullaby is once again on the chopping block for a suspect test. Though not being the focus of most players' ire for most of the generation since its release in DLC1 The Teal Mask, public opinion has quickly turned against it.

The main reason behind the shift in public opinion is Vullaby's Nasty Plot set, which is infamous for its ability to steal a game away at the drop of a hat. Nasty Plot + Weak Armor is already a dangerous combination in Little Cup, but when Air Slash's 30% flinch chance is added on top of that, Vullaby has a very good chance of winning games it has no business doing otherwise. The large variety of attacking moves, supporting moves, and Tera types that Nasty Plot Vullaby can opt to use further enable its chance to win games.

Vullaby's offensive movepool is not wide, but it effectively has everything it needs to destroy teams and bypass its usual checks: Heat Wave slams Tinkatink as well as users of Tera Steel looking to resist Air Slash such as Mudbray or Mienfoo. Dark Pulse, while uncommon, can be used as a secondary STAB move that hits most targets for neutral damage while also still having a respectable 20% flinch chance. Tera Blast Ground hits the aforementioned Steel-types, and turns the tables on Glimmet, Elekid and Chinchou who could otherwise take any attack at +2 and threaten massive damage into Vullaby. Vullaby has access to both Roost and Endure to enable its sweep, with Roost allowing Vullaby to get itself out of the KO range of various attacks, while Endure can be used to gain a crucial Weak Armor Speed boost and surviving Mienfoo's Fake Out or Trapinch's First Impression.

Standard Tera Types for Vullaby are Ghost and Ground, but other types such as Steel and Electric have been seen to some extent. Tera Ghost gives Vullaby an immunity to Mienfoo's Fake Out and High Jump Kick, and is a typing many Pokemon cannot hit super effectively. The commonly seen Dark-type move is Knock Off, which provides the Weak Armor boost Vullaby usually needs to win. Tera Ground provides both offensive and defensive value, as Vullaby gains a way to OHKO Glimmet, Elekid and Chinchou at +2 Special Attack, while gaining a resistance and immunity respectively to their common STAB moves.

Vullaby also still has its physical set, which while it doesn't have the same potential to outright steal a game like Nasty Plot, is still incredibly strong in its own right. STAB Knock Off and Brave Bird, utility from U-turn, Roost, Endure, and occasional Heat Wave can be threatening in its own way. It can also create an ugly game of guessing what set Vullaby might be running, which can quickly lead to a loss if the opponent assumes the wrong set to play around.

Vullaby isn't flawless, with its physical set struggling more with its checks in Glimmet, Mudbray and Tinkatink and the Nasty Plot set often being reliant on getting the Speed boost from Weak Armor, but the combined strength of both sets has given LC Council enough reason to put it up for a suspect.

Writeup written by Flou

​
NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me or a staff member.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Envy/Hacker/tazz or post here!
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800

The period to get the suspect requirements will be <t:1791086340:F> with voting for the suspect going up after. Have fun laddering!
 
View attachment 865068

:vullaby: :vullaby: :vullaby:

The LC Council has decided to suspect test Vullaby.

A long time controversial piece of Little Cup's history and a staple of the tier since Generation 5, Vullaby is once again on the chopping block for a suspect test. Though not being the focus of most players' ire for most of the generation since its release in DLC1 The Teal Mask, public opinion has quickly turned against it.

The main reason behind the shift in public opinion is Vullaby's Nasty Plot set, which is infamous for its ability to steal a game away at the drop of a hat. Nasty Plot + Weak Armor is already a dangerous combination in Little Cup, but when Air Slash's 30% flinch chance is added on top of that, Vullaby has a very good chance of winning games it has no business doing otherwise. The large variety of attacking moves, supporting moves, and Tera types that Nasty Plot Vullaby can opt to use further enable its chance to win games.

Vullaby's offensive movepool is not wide, but it effectively has everything it needs to destroy teams and bypass its usual checks: Heat Wave slams Tinkatink as well as users of Tera Steel looking to resist Air Slash such as Mudbray or Mienfoo. Dark Pulse, while uncommon, can be used as a secondary STAB move that hits most targets for neutral damage while also still having a respectable 20% flinch chance. Tera Blast Ground hits the aforementioned Steel-types, and turns the tables on Glimmet, Elekid and Chinchou who could otherwise take any attack at +2 and threaten massive damage into Vullaby. Vullaby has access to both Roost and Endure to enable its sweep, with Roost allowing Vullaby to get itself out of the KO range of various attacks, while Endure can be used to gain a crucial Weak Armor Speed boost and surviving Mienfoo's Fake Out or Trapinch's First Impression.

Standard Tera Types for Vullaby are Ghost and Ground, but other types such as Steel and Electric have been seen to some extent. Tera Ghost gives Vullaby an immunity to Mienfoo's Fake Out and High Jump Kick, and is a typing many Pokemon cannot hit super effectively. The commonly seen Dark-type move is Knock Off, which provides the Weak Armor boost Vullaby usually needs to win. Tera Ground provides both offensive and defensive value, as Vullaby gains a way to OHKO Glimmet, Elekid and Chinchou at +2 Special Attack, while gaining a resistance and immunity respectively to their common STAB moves.

Vullaby also still has its physical set, which while it doesn't have the same potential to outright steal a game like Nasty Plot, is still incredibly strong in its own right. STAB Knock Off and Brave Bird, utility from U-turn, Roost, Endure, and occasional Heat Wave can be threatening in its own way. It can also create an ugly game of guessing what set Vullaby might be running, which can quickly lead to a loss if the opponent assumes the wrong set to play around.

Vullaby isn't flawless, with its physical set struggling more with its checks in Glimmet, Mudbray and Tinkatink and the Nasty Plot set often being reliant on getting the Speed boost from Weak Armor, but the combined strength of both sets has given LC Council enough reason to put it up for a suspect.

Writeup written by Flou

​
NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me or a staff member.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Envy/Hacker/tazz or post here!
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800

The period to get the suspect requirements will be <t:1791086340:F> with voting for the suspect going up after. Have fun laddering!

Unfortunate doesnt start to describe this suspect I think we are setting this tier to fail to become the next post Vull ban SS in which nobody wanted to play and we had the same 3 teams in every single game isnot like we have a bunch of mons or anything to play with... that said. I dont think vulla is on itself that broken on a mon( or at least when it is in my hands it doesnt deliver as much.


The Eric replay you can see like 3-4 missplays by Hacker that guarantees the vull to win( if the game were stagged the results would have been similar as in Vull wents in into vull to guarantee the boost and NP Gone, which the way Mudbray was played made sure it was a sure thing).


Lets say it this way is a mon broken if it is punishing bad play or chokes? I dont think so, people just should just do better.


I WILL BE VOTING STAY( Tbh I wont ladder cause i get a job and a family to feed so good luck) Specially to my brothers in Christ who are trying to not have what remains of that tier to be destroyed.
 
:vullaby:

This bird will always be an S-A rated mon in the VRs regardless of the generation, purely because of its ability and the roles it can utilise (hazard remover, straight up attacker, decent move pool, etc).

From what I've seen, in particular in SCL, and personally used in SV, I think the main issue is the combination of Nasty Plot + Tera Blast. Nasty Plot alongside its Weak Armor ability activated is pretty much extremely hard to stop - with no special attacking boosts it's a lot more manageable even with the potential flinch from Air Slash. In combination, Tera Blast pretty much stops its notable checks, such as Glimmet, Alolan Sandshrew (heat wave true...), Chinchou, and Tinkatink to name a few.

A lot of players are having to bring Alolan Sandshrew and Ice Shard to revenge kill the Nasty Plot, Endure, Tera Ground, Air Slash set.

Some SCL replays where Nasty Plot Vullaby pretty much swept/won:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-968227?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-971061
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-971197?p2

Please don't resort to using :wattrel: to stop the Nasty Plot set like I tried in one of my LPL games: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-970410

I think if Nasty Plot and/or Tera Blast is banned, it will still be really good in the meta. The physical variant will be used more again, which is standard across the gens and shouldn't be an issue in SV either.

I'll try go for the suspect requirements, but I would personally vote for a Complex Ban and ban Tera Blast, and if not then Nasty Plot.
 
Hi I wanted to briefly respond to a post
From what I've seen, in particular in SCL, and personally used in SV, I think the main issue is the combination of Nasty Plot + Tera Blast.
I disagree. Even in the 3 SCL replays linked, only one is Tera Ground and TBlast isn't even clicked. In LCPL it has <7% usage:
| 9 | Tera Blast | 9 | 6.43% | 66.67% |

In combination, Tera Blast pretty much stops its notable checks, such as Glimmet, Alolan Sandshrew (heat wave true...), Chinchou, and Tinkatink to name a few.
TBlast isn't even necessary to break through these. Half the mons listed fold to Heat Wave. Defensive Tera + Dark Pulse pretty much does the same thing. I think it's important to not just think "oh TBlast makes Vull broken" imo that's an oversimplification

A lot of players are having to bring Alolan Sandshrew and Ice Shard to revenge kill the Nasty Plot, Endure, Tera Ground, Air Slash set.
I disagree. Shrew is just a good mon in general, Ice Shard is great because it can pick off weakened stuff and Taxel misses out on a lot of OHKOs. Vull is a target for that but I doubt Vull (and specifically the Groundblast set) is "forcing" anyone to use Shard Snowshrew

Please don't resort to using :wattrel: to stop the Nasty Plot set like I tried in one of my LPL games: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-970410
1. Can we pls stop using the :pokemon: icons in the middle of a sentence it makes me sad 2. I don't see how this is related at all, Wattrel loses to defensive Tera + Heat Wave/Dark Pulse, it's not like Wattrel is some super niche mon good vs Vull
 
:SV/vullaby::SV/vullaby::SV/vullaby:

can someone more knowledgeable post about what a ban means for the metagame?
from what I understand most of the top mons get better, mienfoo particularly. maybe tink loses value, but it also doesn't have to run 16 speed anymore. I think there's some ramifications that should be explored in the voting players mind.
what do we really want out of SV?

cant we just ban wa bro I like adamant vull
 
i just got reqs, and i am pretty decisively voting ban

no team this time bc i didnt build anything new to ladder for this :(

nasty plot weak armor + tera is pretty nuts and practically impossible to cover. if you truly want to always be safe you have to make sure you don't click physical attacks for 80% of the game because there will always be some way that vullaby can bullshit you. and if i compare this directly to sweepers that are already banned in this tier (shellder) you can't just put tera water or steel on stuff to try to shut it down because there just is no good tera type to cover vulls options.

i also just don't think the physical set is even good enough to be worth preserving. even if i dont use or pass it a lot to others it is surely the more commonly used set and people obviously think its good but i dont really consider it to be glue or anything similar in value in terms of what it does compared to lc oldgens.

i just consider the special set to be broken enough to be banworthy and don't think vull brings much positive value into the current meta
 
I'm a bit afraid to give my opinion as I'm quite new to LC but I have enjoyed playing the tier the last couple of months, I have done the last suspects, reached LT poffs where I got destroyed by screens + set up spammers ft. NP + TB Vullaby, however, I attribute those loses to my unexperience in the tier and how poorly I played those games, lastly, I reached semis in majors where I lost due to some really unlucky rolls.

My point here is the following, NP + TB Vullaby does restrict A LOT your way of playing and planning the game, you gotta be very careful to not gift a free set up and in case you do/can't avoid it due to sequences, you gotta save your own tera to rescue the game, but that way works most set up mons with their different sets. Per example, Venomoth, Corphish, Numel, etc.
Not my intention to criticize the players shown in the replays, but most of them aren't outplaying or straight up doing bad plays/bringing "exotic" teams: (RE: lokifan vs eniigma, as example, take out vullaby and put any other mon instead of it, eniigma team is still ground food, specially lokifan's toedscool)

I would agree on taking actions against Vullaby if complex ban, although not really sure on what we should do with it as proposing ban WA + NP feels silly, and TB is not really the problem... This being said, if it's Vullaby as a whole, I will be voting No Ban per now.
PD: I support emptywisdom, I would love to read someone else who is more experienced in the tier theorizing how the tier could develoap if Vullaby gets banned as a whole, if Complex Ban, and what are the takes on SV LC.
 
i also just don't think the physical set is even good enough to be worth preserving. even if i dont use or pass it a lot to others it is surely the more commonly used set and people obviously think its good but i dont really consider it to be glue or anything similar in value in terms of what it does compared to lc oldgens.
I wanna expand on this point made by hacker because i do agree and think its important.

in the past, when we suspect tested vullaby in ss lc like four times, one of the most prevalent anti-ban arguments was that it does help check a lot of pokemon in that metagame that could become problematic if it were gone: abra, grookey, scraggy and more were stopped by the physical setsvullaby had, which at the time were also the controversial ones. vullabys presence was balanced when it was around checking those mons, and it was toxic when it was roaming free and other mons handled them. this sentiment im not really sure wherher its carried over or not, but it is important to make the distinction.

in sv lc, the metagame we are suspecting vullaby in, this is not the case anymore. those mons i mentioned (and i didnt really cheerypick them at all) dont exist. vullabys presence now and its role in the metagame arent defensive anymore: it is simply a mon that hits buttons and wins games. its defensive utility has shrinked into mon that comes in after gothita traps something and as rapid spin punisher from toedscool. there is no big offensive threat checked by it, it drops roost a lot and most of the times it clicks it is vs another vullaby… this is the same reason why i didnt have it in S rank in my personal VR or thought its necessary in teams the same way mienfoo is, it is mostly an offensive presence, that can be arguably balanced when physical and arguably toxic when special. so if it were to be banned, it wouldnt be missed defensively
 
Going to echo Hackers and Eric's posts, I do not think the positives of having Physical Vull in the metagame outweigh the crimes of Nasty Plot Vullaby and I will be voting ban the moment I get regs. Vullaby has just a perfect amount of coverage on the Nasty Plot set, always coming with Air Slash but after having the option of choosing between Heat Wave, Dark Pulse or the mentioned Tera Blast. All 3 of these have different kinds of counterplay making playing around this thing absurdly hard in game.

A sidenote : I feel a lot of people fail to consider the fact that Air Slash has a 30% flinch chance. It very much isn't uncommon that Vullaby does 60% to it's opponent and flinches it, allowing it to snowball ever harder. This is amplified on the rarer Dark Pulse variants. This is not healthy whatsoever in a metagame like SV, where a single turn can decide an entire match.

The people saying complex bans in the thread, reminder, you got an opportunity to do so when Tera Blast was suspected. Most of that (at least to me) seemed like a cry against Vullaby and it was easily the most affected by a ban of that move in the current metagame. We opted to keep Tera Blast instead and now are seeing the consequences. While I personally think keeping Tera Blast was correct, this was your opportunity.

Physical Vullaby itself is also a strong option and is simply being out shadowed by the opportunity cost that is loading a Vullaby lacking Nasty Plot. This set is good man, especially with Overcoat halting all Spore attempts from Foongus.

Ban this thing.
 
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Got my reqs in at exactly 2800 COIL B)

Also no team to show off I just ran screens and Sandshrew + Snover slop

I'm still technically undecided but leaning at least 80% to vote Ban. I appreciate what Physical and even Mixed Vullaby bring to the tier more than most people I think, but I can't deny that Nasty Plot sets are absolutely ban worthy. In an ideal world there'd be some ban that keeps Physical Vullaby around while removing Special, but any option I can think of that'd do that would be a complex ban, which is obviously a nonstarter.

I'd also like to talk about Tera Blast, and specifically that Vullaby would still be broken without it. As xonks posted, only ~6.5% of Vullabies even ran the move in LCPL. The combination of a defensive Tera plus its natural coverage with Air Slash, Heat Wave, and the niche Dark Pulse are plenty strong on their own, and I don't think Tera Blast Ground flips any matchups that other defensive Teras can't also flip.

Tl;dr NP Vullaby wins the game off of 1 good read/flinch, especially with tera, and I can't justify any reason to not ban the entire Pokemon to get rid of this set.

Stunky stocks to the moon
 
1790284007737.png

After getting punished for playing snow and hitting reqs with a LCSL team I made on a new account, I'm of slightly conflicted opinion on the ban and hopefully a few more test games might help decide. On one hand, NP Vull is definitely stupid and has the potential to walk away with games when put into position correctly that it really should not deserve. Its counters, while they definitely do exist and make it a lot harder to play, rely on them being in the team - and it definitely feels bad to have to load specific checks to Vull especially when it restricts the teambuilding even more.

On the other hand, I don't think it's unstoppable force that it's made out to be, and a lot of the times when it's given the opportunity to steal games are based off misplays. The fact that it can tera past a lot of its checks isn't something specific to Vull and giving up tera early to do that should be punishable in a lot of games. Physical Vull is also a set that I think is very fair and healthy, and it feels bad to let it go even if it might be the right thing to do.

The reason I'm probably still voting ban is because of the flinch chance on Air Slash - without it it would be a lot more fair to play around although still strong but the fact that you can put yourself in perfect position to punish an early tera and still have the game taken because it flinches through all of your checks is just stupid no matter how you look at it.

Team if anyone's interested: https://pokepast.es/a23bba8e627cdddc
 
Just got reqs, post will be smaller because i'm not qualified to have an opinionated, in-depth analysis of vullaby.
Team i used was some fake screens slop i built on a whim: https://pokepast.es/34ded547d53358d9

What is pretty clear though is that vullaby isn't doing anything other than clicking buttons and winning most of the time, and having a strong flinch chance on 2 of it's relevant attacking moves is far too much i believe. Technically vullaby can be used for healthier roles such as a physical attacker and scarfer, however, most of the time it isn't used for anything other than nasty plot mischief.
Ban this one.
 
:SV/vullaby::SV/vullaby::SV/vullaby:

can someone more knowledgeable post about what a ban means for the metagame?
from what I understand most of the top mons get better, mienfoo particularly. maybe tink loses value, but it also doesn't have to run 16 speed anymore. I think there's some ramifications that should be explored in the voting players mind.
what do we really want out of SV?

cant we just ban wa bro I like adamant vull
Actually ban weak armor is not a bad call,this is not a complex ban and no other viable weak armor user and overcoat Vull is healthy.Since there are still many people who are skeptical about banning Vullaby entirely,this would be the most reasonable way I could thought.I suggest we should seriously think about it.
Also,other possible measures are less reasonable because:
1.ban nasty plot
NP gimmighoul and aipom banned for no reason,they are less should banned than physical weak armor vull.
2.ban Air slash
Wingull and wattrel may want a flying move with more accuracy,and dark pulse still flinch you into lose.
3.ban Air slash and ban Dark Pulse
Houndor need dark pulse and this is really weird.
4.ban Tera Blast
Not solve the main problem and already polled.
5.complex ban
This is complex ban and there is another reasonable way.
6.Ban
Physical Vull banned for no reason,including physical weak armor.
7.Do not ban
Vull will keep flinching people into lose.
I would support ban if this can't be accepted though.
 
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I’ve seen a lot of discussion around misplays in regards to handling nasty plot vullaby. This post isn’t meant to sway you one way or another, but I do want to point out we have banned a lot of Pokemon that are fine if you play around it correctly (see Shellder, Magby, Torchic etc.).

I have touched on this a bit in the LC Discord, but it’s definitely not reasonable to expect people not to make mistakes. Even at the highest level, players make wrong choices. When deciding if something is broken it’s not about how easy it is to deal with if you play perfectly. It should be about how easy is it to handle with a reasonable margin for error. The line might be in different places for different people, but I just wanted to throw this out there to refute the argument of misplays being made. Obviously if someone super chokes that’s one thing, but getting one turn wrong vs a Vullaby shouldn’t decide a game.
 
Actually ban weak armor is not a bad call,this is not a complex ban and no other viable weak armor user and overcoat Vull is healthy.Since there are still many people who are skeptical about banning Vullaby entirely,this would be the most reasonable way I could thought.I suggest we should seriously think about it.
Banning weak armor is not on the table. Beyond that though, I am probably the person in LC who has used or given the most Overcoat Vull lately but this set falls short in tournament player and very quickly can become an actual detriment to use. It is fairly recognizable from preview or just general gameplay alone. Its happened more than a few times to me where I just go into Vullaby expecting a Spore but get Sludge Bombed. This has a few spots where it can go really bad for the vull user, including but probably not limited to
  • If rocks are up, you kinda just have to heal anyways. You could maybe just defog them off but either of Glimmet or Tinkatink will just force hazards up on it again
  • If you get Sludge Bomb poisoned your Vullaby is genuinely useless bc Overcoat Vullaby can barely hang on to live any hits as is and its a lot of just general pressure for it to handle Foongus. The Foongus can then just swap out and just be a general nuisance for the rest of the game and your main counterplay to it has failed
I don't really want to argue with anyone about the effectiveness of Physical Vullaby other than thinking it doesn't really matter when I believe Nasty Plot to be the superior set. However, after using an extensive amount of Overcoat Vullaby I do genuinely believe it is just incredibly mediocre and the value it brings to the tier is not even near enough to whats needed
 
https://psim.us/r/gen9lc-2687830852-iaiw8r19t9acqeg7xnc7jfds56fhgojpw

Vullaby is superior to other Pokémon in the tier; it boasts immense bulk and versatility, with sets ranging from Defogger and Choice Scarf to Mixed and Nasty Plot. Let me share a match I just played: my Stunky missed a Gunk Shot, and I simply lost 6-0. Is that healthy for the meta—missing one move and instantly losing? It limits team-building; plus, it has access to Endure to handle priority moves, as well as a recovery move. Now, combine all that with Terastal and Tera Blast, and it becomes incredibly difficult to deal with; a Pokémon capable of wreaking such havoc just because of a missed move shouldn't be allowed.
 
got reqs yesterday and I’ll be voting do not ban

just looking to outline some things and clear up some misconceptions:

I think we as a community need to get better at building and playing against Vullaby, as of right now I think most of the complaints in general towards the bird stem from poor team building & play.
this thing has been broken for at least a year, infinte amount of nasty plot sets that just steal games. you could be outplaying all turns any given game and in just one turn you will lose. see this scl game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-971197?p2



ban this thing
like here: This isn't a good example of "you can outplay every turn and still lose to bullshit" rather this is an example of someone failing to respect the bird as a wincon and not making the proper preparations to handle it. T10 rocks -> Vulla knock BB with rocks would have killed Vulla in this position. (Hackers still the goat) nvm I fucked up the calc oops



:vullaby:

This bird will always be an S-A rated mon in the VRs regardless of the generation, purely because of its ability and the roles it can utilise (hazard remover, straight up attacker, decent move pool, etc).

From what I've seen, in particular in SCL, and personally used in SV, I think the main issue is the combination of Nasty Plot + Tera Blast. Nasty Plot alongside its Weak Armor ability activated is pretty much extremely hard to stop - with no special attacking boosts it's a lot more manageable even with the potential flinch from Air Slash. In combination, Tera Blast pretty much stops its notable checks, such as Glimmet, Alolan Sandshrew (heat wave true...), Chinchou, and Tinkatink to name a few.

A lot of players are having to bring Alolan Sandshrew and Ice Shard to revenge kill the Nasty Plot, Endure, Tera Ground, Air Slash set.

Some SCL replays where Nasty Plot Vullaby pretty much swept/won:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-968227?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-971061
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-971197?p2



I'll try go for the suspect requirements, but I would personally vote for a Complex Ban and ban Tera Blast, and if not then Nasty Plot.
also here: Once again not respecting the bird as a wincon clicking rest in front of it hoping it'll be physical giving Vullaby ample opportunity to set up and sweep. Then the other is a team that fails to respect Plot bird in the builder by stacking a bunch of things that lose to it quite hard without really anything to combat it. leading to an extremely unfavorable position after the bird gets an easily attained speed boost. (please do not use Wattrel it's so bad....)


I would like to see some discussion on VullPinch comps that seems like something interesting


Also, Ban tera blast free the orb free Snivy give Horua Hyper voice gg.
 
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T10 rocks -> Vulla knock BB with rocks would have killed Vulla in this position
236 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Tera Electric Vullaby: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
nice try ban this shitter LMFAO

expansion in case it isnt clear/post isnt long enough: wails vullaby wouldnt have died from rocks + knock + bb even if he got max rolled twice, because he is taking advantage of the fact that vullaby is super broken and can choose what it sets up on by clicking a different defensive tera, in this case electric, which allows it to resist brave bird and thunderbolt. even if hacker did as you say, wail would win and nothing would have changed. also im pretty sure vull should be scarf on this comp as you need the speed control, but i think hacker said he was normal evio
 
Hi I got to like 2700 COIL, found out I got tour reqs, and then sunken costed to get reqs. Anyways I'm in the ban boat for now. My thoughts:
Don't really want to beat a dead horse but physical Vull is largely unproblematic for me. That being said there are some cool things you can do like Heat Wave, Throat Chop, Scarf, Defog, Overcoat etc. that mix it up. Stuff like tazz Vull SCL W1 vs Hacker (Knock/BB/Throat Chop/Heat Wave) I think is a cool building skill expression. Scarf is also cool, I can't think of any games of the top of my head but it is nice speed control.
This seems to be the main issue, I think it's broken. I've seen Ghost, Steel, Electric, Ground Teras recently and each one requires pretty different counterplay. You can Ice Shard Groundblast Vull and be fine but get smoked by Heat Wave from Steel Vull. The most consistent counterplay seems to just not give it a speed boost but that is so hard to do, and even if you do avoid giving it the speed boost it can end up just Teraing, setting up, and smoke you, especially with options like Roost/Endure. The only two "guaranteed" moves are Plot and Air Slash, and it's pretty much impossible to consistently guess what set (or even just Tera) the opposing Vull is. You do have counterplay like Glimmet, Tinkatink, Chinchou, Snowshrew etc. but with Timid Groundblast Vull rising in popularity they are one speedtie away from being nuked. That's just one example of a set, defensive Tera probably still beats them and there's no consistent way to guess the set.
Briefly responding to some other posts:
i dont really consider it to be glue
Wanted to echo this. Vull is not glue the way something like Mienfoo is. Look at Juan who has like 20% Vull usage and still builds consistently good teams.
you gotta save your own tera to rescue the game
I think a key difference between Vull and other sweepers is the lack of a "universal" (idk if that's right word) defensive Tera. For example Water generally works for Corphish, Ghost generally works for StockPress Numel.
abra, grookey, scraggy and more were stopped by the physical setsvullaby
I'm not too knowledgeable about SS (and even less CG SS) but losing Berry Juice probably makes it a lot less effective as a "glue" check. Half the time I feel like it's just clicking Roost and not making much progress.
I would like to see some discussion on VullPinch comps that seems like something interesting
I don't think this particularly makes Vull broken. Plot Vull already beats trapping targets like Tink/Glim anyways with the right set (or just winning the speedtie if Timid vs Tink). It can definitely facilitate sweeps but doesn't seem that popular. From LCPL (not sure how many of these Vull was Plot):
| 14 | Trapinch | 17 | 12.14% | 58.82% |
 
T10 rocks -> Vulla knock BB with rocks would have killed Vulla in this position. (Hackers still the goat) nvm I fucked up the calc oops
can you find me the line where I do this and don’t lose to goth bc of the resources i had to dedicate to it. it’s not even like mudbray vull answer is a bad comp regardless

i misplayed this game anyways even if i think my matchup was cooked and he just landed the correct matchup fish but this replay still highlights vulls silliness bc of a) set variety and b) the amount of resources you need to commit to it in game to be “safe”
 
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