we are discussing roaring moon as well. and, to a perhaps lesser extent, light clay
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Absolute nonsense retesting roaring moon, idk what to say. The last thing the tier needs is another unpredictable broken sweeper. Yes, TB was a big part of moon but its fundamentals have not changed at all, it will do the same thing again.
Just give us terapagos already and fix the tier pls
Oh, and another complain, we have to deal with tier freezing for over a year with the excuse that we need to let the tiers settle down before the new gen, but in the same time period we might throw an uber back to OU because why not. At least volc was requested as a method to deal with kyurem and was clearly abussing TB in the mayority of its sets. I dont support retesting RM, dont think it adds anything healthy to the tier, if someone has good arguments i would love to be proven wrong
Just give us terapagos already and fix the tier pls
Oh, and another complain, we have to deal with tier freezing for over a year with the excuse that we need to let the tiers settle down before the new gen, but in the same time period we might throw an uber back to OU because why not. At least volc was requested as a method to deal with kyurem and was clearly abussing TB in the mayority of its sets. I dont support retesting RM, dont think it adds anything healthy to the tier, if someone has good arguments i would love to be proven wrong
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Roaring Moon can be interesting to end Dragonite's monopoly on DD sweeping since Kyurem doesn't even use a fully physical DD set. Gholdengo gets worse which is cool. I would love to see a Gouging Fire retest too.
What does the last part of this post even mean? The OU tier hasn’t been frozen for over a year. We have had multiple tests within the last six months alone and the metagame looks quite different than a year ago.
You can argue it’s grown stale and less active within the last couple of months, aside from OLT’s developments, but that’s the case at the end of virtually every generation and that’s not what you’re saying at all. So I am a bit lost.
When Tera Blast was banned, we committed looking into (that doesn’t mean suspect, but at least discussing) impacted Pokemon. Volcarona was an obvious case. Roaring Moon was cited repeatedly as an option. Support wasn’t there or particularly close initially and I am not sure about it being there now, but it’s absolutely on the table. And it’s my job to be transparent with the public about what’s happening, so yea.
I Think :roaring moon: can get a Suspect test even Sun Teams are Still Opressive and Terra Flying Acrobatics Booster Energy Makes also a Shit Ton Off Damage against Offensive Teams, But Moon Still Loses TB Fairy which is Huge.
But i wil be Funny if we are Trading a Moon with Another Even Stronger Moon so idk.
But i wil be Funny if we are Trading a Moon with Another Even Stronger Moon so idk.
They're saying that tier CHANGES are going to be frozen for more than a year
That makes even less sense. This is an OU discussion and that was in response to being upset about a potential OU retest down from Ubers. The freezes only impact lower tiers and the decision to freeze tiers has nothing to do with me or OU council, which is what he was complaining about. Either he’s completely off topic or completely wrong given the two feasible explanations.
Likely the former - feeling like there's incongruity between how things are being handled, where in some ways pokemon aren't allowed to cross tier borders, but in other cases they are.
To try and bring things back on topic: Even if non-TB Roaring Moon can be handled, and handled consistently at that, I'm not entirely sure if the tier is currently capable of handling RM in tandem with every other currently-existing threat - while I don't think the currently-existing pressure needs to be vented, it's definitely a bit on the higher side right now.
At this point I am convinced that the Light clay suspect test is a psyop created by smogon officials to force people to care about light clay when in reality, it’s not worth the attention.
moon's being put back in? clay's being looked at (this one cannot be serious, you're reaching at that point and trying to not look at the mons themselves )
Moon offers more immediate benefits than Volcarona did. The tblast fairy sets were the only ones with an absurd winrate in high level play; without the move, it will be much easier to handle.
While Moon could be a cheese mon, and be run on more extreme styles such as screens or sun, it also limited those teams, naturally checking cheese like Ceruledge or Goltres through its typing, opposing sun through its ability, and constraining the use of sets like Scarf Ghold or NP Pech. Thanks to its great SpDef it also matches up well into Cress.
Without the tblast sets pushing it over the edge, it would make a great re-addition to the tier. It provides a very unique form of role compression that nothing else can really replace. Hope to see it suspected again soon.
While Moon could be a cheese mon, and be run on more extreme styles such as screens or sun, it also limited those teams, naturally checking cheese like Ceruledge or Goltres through its typing, opposing sun through its ability, and constraining the use of sets like Scarf Ghold or NP Pech. Thanks to its great SpDef it also matches up well into Cress.
Without the tblast sets pushing it over the edge, it would make a great re-addition to the tier. It provides a very unique form of role compression that nothing else can really replace. Hope to see it suspected again soon.
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Out of all the things being discussed for tiering action a Light Clay ban is the only one I actually would support getting momentum. I'm not that gunho about a light clay ban as I can tolerate a meta game with it but when I reflect on it, I realise I'm only not more annoyed by sceens because most players have the decency to not spam it on ladder.
The thing about screens I find to be most problematic is how it takes the just balenced enough feeling of current OU and how everything has just enough checks to be managabe and throws that out the window. Screens takes already strong set up sweepers and push them over the edge by nuttering your ability to counterplay them with opposing offense. Screens doesn't seem that bad when ita helping out a lowtier sweeper be more consistent but screens has a strong rich get richer effect when applied to top tiers.
Three top tiers come to mind that prove my point. Those being Gholdengo, Ceruledge and raging bolt. If it were pre tera blast ban I would of added dnite and kyurem to the list.
These mons make my point about certain mons being way to strong to be allowed the extra turns of setup that screens provide. With screens ceru is now eating your earthquakes while setting up in your face, ghold is strugging off your super effective hits without even having to burn tera and probably 1shotting you back. Further singling out gholdengo specifically, I think ghold under screens is the strongest mon in SV OU and that's not even hyperbole. I'm fine with lightclay getting banned just so these monsters can't strug off hits that shouldn't threathen them.
Admitedly screens hurts offense and bo more then it does balence or defensive teams. More slower defensive teams tend to have tools like phasing ,unaware mons, regen pivots, defog and other tools that can help stall out screens. So since defensive teams have been less stronger then their offensive counterparts for most of sv ou, having something that indirrectly buffs them is kinda cool in an overall health of metagame sense.
But I just above everything else I said think screens are lame and boring strong. If your gonna run HO, run like sun or rain, trickroom etc, run something more respectable like that. Don't disgrace yourself as a pokemon battler. Just put the webs in the bag instead if you must insist on playing easy bake teams.
In seriousness tho, I think its players subconciously agreeing with me that screens are boring strong and they'd rather run more creative teams, that's like the only thing really holding screens back. If everyone just decided to sell their integruity and spam screens offense to get easy wins against oposing offense that rely on certain breakpoint math for counterplay options, then SV OU would become so cancerous so fast.
The thing about screens I find to be most problematic is how it takes the just balenced enough feeling of current OU and how everything has just enough checks to be managabe and throws that out the window. Screens takes already strong set up sweepers and push them over the edge by nuttering your ability to counterplay them with opposing offense. Screens doesn't seem that bad when ita helping out a lowtier sweeper be more consistent but screens has a strong rich get richer effect when applied to top tiers.
Three top tiers come to mind that prove my point. Those being Gholdengo, Ceruledge and raging bolt. If it were pre tera blast ban I would of added dnite and kyurem to the list.
These mons make my point about certain mons being way to strong to be allowed the extra turns of setup that screens provide. With screens ceru is now eating your earthquakes while setting up in your face, ghold is strugging off your super effective hits without even having to burn tera and probably 1shotting you back. Further singling out gholdengo specifically, I think ghold under screens is the strongest mon in SV OU and that's not even hyperbole. I'm fine with lightclay getting banned just so these monsters can't strug off hits that shouldn't threathen them.
Admitedly screens hurts offense and bo more then it does balence or defensive teams. More slower defensive teams tend to have tools like phasing ,unaware mons, regen pivots, defog and other tools that can help stall out screens. So since defensive teams have been less stronger then their offensive counterparts for most of sv ou, having something that indirrectly buffs them is kinda cool in an overall health of metagame sense.
But I just above everything else I said think screens are lame and boring strong. If your gonna run HO, run like sun or rain, trickroom etc, run something more respectable like that. Don't disgrace yourself as a pokemon battler. Just put the webs in the bag instead if you must insist on playing easy bake teams.
In seriousness tho, I think its players subconciously agreeing with me that screens are boring strong and they'd rather run more creative teams, that's like the only thing really holding screens back. If everyone just decided to sell their integruity and spam screens offense to get easy wins against oposing offense that rely on certain breakpoint math for counterplay options, then SV OU would become so cancerous so fast.
i heavily, heavily doubt that a roaring moon retest would realistically be worth the hassle. volcarona, a far less contentious mon, remained banned by a pretty big margin despite showing some tangible benefits. realistically, what are the chances of the playerbase at large looking at moon, which was problematic long before the tb sets were discovered, and saying "yeah, 60% of us want that guy back in the tier"? i don't think they're very high
as for light clay, it's been enabling stupid cheese all gen and frankly i don't think it brings anything productive. it should've been axed the second people started making teams with 5 quick claws and a screens setter and making it work. i hit my peak with screens and that's evidence it should probably go
my opinion on cresselia is that i think people are just kind of panicky because it got really big seemingly out of nowhere, but i don't think it's worthy of action. this has happened with pecharunt and ceruledge before and all they really needed was some time to settle
as for light clay, it's been enabling stupid cheese all gen and frankly i don't think it brings anything productive. it should've been axed the second people started making teams with 5 quick claws and a screens setter and making it work. i hit my peak with screens and that's evidence it should probably go
my opinion on cresselia is that i think people are just kind of panicky because it got really big seemingly out of nowhere, but i don't think it's worthy of action. this has happened with pecharunt and ceruledge before and all they really needed was some time to settle
I’m not opposed to a potential Roaring Moon retest, but i’d be the same dance except without TB Fairy. Roaring Moon is a huge stat stick with a lot of Tera variety, and that was shown when bulky variants became popular. It always forces unfavorable trades, whether its forcing a Tera or losing an item. +1 Proto Attack Knock was a threat to anything that didn’t resist it or had good physical bulk.
as an example
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 390-459 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
It wasn’t helped that Moon resisted most forms of priority and shrugged off E-Speeds with bulk investment.
That said, an argument can be made that Roaring Moon would punish annoying mons like Ceru, Samu, and Scarf Dengo, but I’d address Light Clay before jumping to Moon. With Tera, the added bulk from screens creates a stronger, more polarizing snowball affect with different sweepers and getting rid of it would reduce alot of the teambuilding prep.
as an example
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 390-459 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
It wasn’t helped that Moon resisted most forms of priority and shrugged off E-Speeds with bulk investment.
That said, an argument can be made that Roaring Moon would punish annoying mons like Ceru, Samu, and Scarf Dengo, but I’d address Light Clay before jumping to Moon. With Tera, the added bulk from screens creates a stronger, more polarizing snowball affect with different sweepers and getting rid of it would reduce alot of the teambuilding prep.
My opinion about roaring moon.
I look at my dark type options when I’m trying to build unique offense. Sometimes I want to try different dark types outside of gambit rai Hamurott ting Lu so I look at the next best offensive dark option to use and the darks in questions are….
”zarude”, “meowscarada”, “Moltres Galar”
Please just allow roaring moon back into tier we need more real dark types.
I look at my dark type options when I’m trying to build unique offense. Sometimes I want to try different dark types outside of gambit rai Hamurott ting Lu so I look at the next best offensive dark option to use and the darks in questions are….
”zarude”, “meowscarada”, “Moltres Galar”
Please just allow roaring moon back into tier we need more real dark types.
The Weavile disrespect will not be tolerated.
Anyway, as for Roaring Moon my stance on it remains the same as before tera blast got banned. When Roaring Moon was originally banned, I didn't think it was justified because it only happened like a month after TB Fairy got popular on it and I thought the meta needed more time to adjust. Even now I think if the meta had remained where it had been post Roaring Moon ban it probably would have been fine. However, screens rose up to the forefront a few months later and once that happened, I realized that Roaring Moon in that meta would be too much because of how well it could abuse screens since its bulky sets could become even bulkier. I still feel this way even after the tera blast ban. Sure, losing tera blast sucks for it but Roaring Moon can still easily abuse screens with non-tera blast sets using a variety of tera types in similar ways to Dragonite. I don't think it being able to beat screens outweigh how much it could abuse screens itself. Even outside of screens, it is still an extremely powerful pokemon that (at least imo) is not worth the effort to suspect since it will probably be almost as oppressive without tera blast as it was with.
Speaking of pokemon to suspect, can we at least consider retesting Volcarona since I don't think it was given a fair shot. I also hope for discussion on Terapagos but I will save my thoughts on that one for another day.
We have retested volc one time! it remained banned though because no one wanted to deal with its stupidness. I was one of those people that didn't want volc back (mostly because I'd rather not deal with cheese)
anyways, don't unban moon. Cress is overall fine (if it really is that "broken", suspect it). I do think terapagos back into the tier would be cool. Anyways, yeah.
Yes, it was retested but it was cut short because of tournaments that came up. I don't think it was given a fair chance in the slightest. I can understand not wanting Volcarona unbanned, but it deserves a fair shot at some point. Doesn't have to be any time particularly soon but it should happen imo.
Meowscarada is pretty shiest tho and we've got some other big dark-types like Weav, Gren and Hydreigon thst are pretty cool.
If all that's wanted is "more usable offensive darks that arent the two A-tier ones or the three listed ones", then surely the already-available selection of :hoopa-unbound::lokix::tyranitar::weavile::hydreigon::greninja::overqwil::iron-jugulis: on the VR is enough to fill that void, no? I'm not sure there's a gap here that needs exactly a 14th mon in order to be filled...
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You brought up 4 unviable dark types in this list. Chopped ass list #FreeRoaringMoon
:roaring-moon:
im gonna be honest i dont really have a strong opinion on moon. its been like a year and a half since its ban and the meta has changed a decent amount since its departure. just gonna type down some quick thoughts
theres a lot of traits i do like about it. a dragon that can switch into gholds shadow ball is always nice to semi compress the oger + ghold check. A couple of times when building a team, ive always sorta had that slot empty and thought to myself "hey scarf moon would be a nice fit". Like sure theres hydreigon but i dont wanna use scarf hydreigon thats pretty pathetic.
without tb fairy up its ass it def does limit a bit more of its offensive firepower. tera ground i feel will be the more common one as shredding gweezing is a lot more helpful rn. Acro isnt bad per say just that ground is a lot more potent especially as it can afford bulky spreads here. The rest of moons possible sets should be pretty fair. cb and scarf arent super scary unless youre in sun. that jaw lock stuff lowkey troll but its a mad fisher. boots could be neat on some hstack.
theres also just a lot more counterplay. Dnite is still just as good as before and can rkill or dtail them out, while roosting back up anyways. Ting lu is pretty solid even when spdef since its a fat bastard and can take at least one hit. red card or helmet can really annoy moon and without booster can be handled far easier. in general phazing and general chip dmg really keeps moon from going completely beserk. I think lax and his vid about moon really exemplifies that while moon is a very strong mon, it really depends on the user and how the opponent can respond.
my only real annoyance with moon is how disgusting it can get in terms of how you can respond to it a lot of the time. between the spreads it can run, what that filler slot could be, what tera it might have and even if its using booster or not, moon can be really a nightmare to play against, especially with the prominence of screens offense with zama. for example.
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon through Reflect: 262-309 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon through Reflect: 294-348 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon through Reflect: 294-346 (83.7 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
for context. im using these calcs as a way to show that with how easy it slots onto these types of archetypes, it can be very difficult to outright kill. and this is uninvested too under its far lower defense stat. a lot of these guys are used to at least punish greedy moons, especially something like balloon gambit.
even without screens moon absolutely shreds through a lot of bulkier archetypes. sure without tb moon cant really get past a healthy ting lu, but ting lu doesnt exactly have the best longevity. you often have to trade by the skin of your teeth just to dampen moons effectiveness. for example, moltres has to essentially pray that its team can keep hazards off after roaring or wisping moon out. on offensive structures that moon fits well on, crippling such a high value target like moltres can often be good enough. you can say that about other mons but moon is particularly good at that.
i think you def can plop moon in ou right now and it wouldnt be the most outright broken thing in the tier. i just also see that moons traits are really dislikable to people who like the meta atm. i dont mind either way it seems like a neat little thing. though if i were to say anything else its that if you wanted volc gone you may as well have moon gone too cuz theye both dishonest. samu apple volc supremacy.
im gonna be honest i dont really have a strong opinion on moon. its been like a year and a half since its ban and the meta has changed a decent amount since its departure. just gonna type down some quick thoughts
theres a lot of traits i do like about it. a dragon that can switch into gholds shadow ball is always nice to semi compress the oger + ghold check. A couple of times when building a team, ive always sorta had that slot empty and thought to myself "hey scarf moon would be a nice fit". Like sure theres hydreigon but i dont wanna use scarf hydreigon thats pretty pathetic.
without tb fairy up its ass it def does limit a bit more of its offensive firepower. tera ground i feel will be the more common one as shredding gweezing is a lot more helpful rn. Acro isnt bad per say just that ground is a lot more potent especially as it can afford bulky spreads here. The rest of moons possible sets should be pretty fair. cb and scarf arent super scary unless youre in sun. that jaw lock stuff lowkey troll but its a mad fisher. boots could be neat on some hstack.
theres also just a lot more counterplay. Dnite is still just as good as before and can rkill or dtail them out, while roosting back up anyways. Ting lu is pretty solid even when spdef since its a fat bastard and can take at least one hit. red card or helmet can really annoy moon and without booster can be handled far easier. in general phazing and general chip dmg really keeps moon from going completely beserk. I think lax and his vid about moon really exemplifies that while moon is a very strong mon, it really depends on the user and how the opponent can respond.
my only real annoyance with moon is how disgusting it can get in terms of how you can respond to it a lot of the time. between the spreads it can run, what that filler slot could be, what tera it might have and even if its using booster or not, moon can be really a nightmare to play against, especially with the prominence of screens offense with zama. for example.
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon through Reflect: 262-309 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon through Reflect: 294-348 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon through Reflect: 294-346 (83.7 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
for context. im using these calcs as a way to show that with how easy it slots onto these types of archetypes, it can be very difficult to outright kill. and this is uninvested too under its far lower defense stat. a lot of these guys are used to at least punish greedy moons, especially something like balloon gambit.
even without screens moon absolutely shreds through a lot of bulkier archetypes. sure without tb moon cant really get past a healthy ting lu, but ting lu doesnt exactly have the best longevity. you often have to trade by the skin of your teeth just to dampen moons effectiveness. for example, moltres has to essentially pray that its team can keep hazards off after roaring or wisping moon out. on offensive structures that moon fits well on, crippling such a high value target like moltres can often be good enough. you can say that about other mons but moon is particularly good at that.
i think you def can plop moon in ou right now and it wouldnt be the most outright broken thing in the tier. i just also see that moons traits are really dislikable to people who like the meta atm. i dont mind either way it seems like a neat little thing. though if i were to say anything else its that if you wanted volc gone you may as well have moon gone too cuz theye both dishonest. samu apple volc supremacy.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2686407103
Gholdengo might be a little broken too. Maybe they need Roaring Moon to make them calm down a little.
Gholdengo might be a little broken too. Maybe they need Roaring Moon to make them calm down a little.
I mean your opp decided to stay in with Gking multiple times on Ghold instead of going into Molt or AV Prim(?) so idt that’s the best replay to use to argue that Ghold is dumb. Unless this is satire and I’m bad at picking up on it.
The net positives of having Gholdengo in the tier outweigh the negatives. It provides great role compression and keeps things like Zama, Pech, and Kyurem in check.