• Follow our Instagram!
  • Curious about what we're currently doing about bots? Check out the latest updates from staff in this thread.

Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

There was a long period of peace and quiet since the tera blast ban and for a good reason; the meta game is far less bitchable with it gone.

Volc test was a disappointment but it cannot be denied, its been a fucking night and day improvement since the TB ban and the calling for removal of mons has basically been shut down, I check the thread every couple of weeks and it feels like its just actual discussion not "get fucking rid of X or Y" lately... uh fucking mission accomplished??? We'll be echo chambering for bans on dragonite, kingambit, kyurem, etc all over again. I could only ask for a removal of the tera mechanic in its entirety but that option was non-negotiable after tera's original test, so the idea of anyone wanting to buff it again is completely insane to me. Its a terrible fucking game mechanic that shouldn't be in a competitive setting, a poker game has less guessing and gambling than fucking figuring out what tera blast is going to delete your sole win con or answer to these threats.

Roaring moon deserves a test, but the results will probably be the same as volcaronas assuming we wouldn't let volc back in again either (everyone just hates volc, its early gen dominance poisoned the well on its reputation even if it was not nearly as bad in the retest). Moon and Volc retest would've been easier if (big if) light clay was removed first to eliminate one of the frustrating ways they could setup but the chronological order of retest and suspects has been fucked all generation, especially since a lot of it was too much versatility in threats and you could ban dragonite and suddenly you can focus on dealing with volc or moon, the tier becomes less egregious over having to focus on 5 different dictators and removing any one of them relieves the pressure of the others.

Test moon because its fair to do so since its been waiting since the TB ban and the main reason it wasn't being begged for is people really thought volc would come back and when that didn't work out off the reasoning 'we don't want to shake up the meta so soon after TB', there was no way in hell moon would, maybe if volc waited this long too it'd be different but it was largely agreed volc had a better chance than moon which was why it was first to begin with.

I have no opinion on terapagos cause it was made clear like a full tera ban that it was non-negotiable, wouldn't give a shit if there was a complex ban for it but it does feel like playing favorites when you could also ban volcarona/dragonite/moon/espathra/etc from having a tera button as well... or everything but SV OU is prioritizing 4fun by keeping it.

Either way, if there was any particular version of SV OU that gets completely locked in and never given test again, what we have today would be likely the safest version bar a light clay removal which whether I agree with it or not I think is still not going to be missed and be a net positive overall if it was removed. Retention is never going to last forever if players are getting bored of the literal longest wait between generations, it doesn't signal patching the game nothing is wrong with it.
Moon and Volc probably wouldn't be unbanned even if you do remove light clay. For some reason, the playerbase is scared of setup sweepers. Mention the words Quiver Dance and you'll get visceral reactions.

Also for the unban crowd you'd have to argue "what does it bring to the tier" even if it's not broken, because of the "unhealthy" implication that became a buzzword. Like vert said, it it's not broken just unban it, don't make up excuses.

This "unhealthy" rule is on paper only used as a last resort method, but it's used as an iron fist to not unban pokemon.

"But we already have so many offensive threats to account for!" source: my ass. If you played lowers you'd know this argument is pretty weak.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, i know its not really in the spirit of Smogon, but Tera Blast might be more fair if the tera types of opposing Pokémon were displayed. I'm not an OU pro obviously, but I think part of what made Tera so cool in VGC was that you knew what you could be up against in terms of Tera, so you could play around it.

Tera preview is not feasible at all because you can't mimic it on cart.

Tera preview, whether you're using the mutually shared 'ou matches' link code or coming across randoms, you cannot in any way get in contact with them to share team sheets like a showdown forced implementation would or a mandated irl tournament event does for 1 specific format, cart is disadvantaged by the fact you're exclusively blind there so showdown would be breaking the 'modding cart' policy. If it weren't for that, it'd be less egregious but then you get to mind game your opponent of tera 50-50s (he knows that i know that he knows this type and knows i'll tera to match his tera but what-if i bluff it to counter his tera but he doesn't use his to save for something else and-)

This is why I was sorta against a sleep ban cause even if someone broke the sleep clause you'd just FF immediate and say "nah i win fuck you" since cart doesn't have a ladder system for 6v6 anyways (losses don't collect, wins don't track), or play it out, i still think clauses in general could just be an FF vote feature where if the opponent breaks it you can trigger a 'illegal play made, terminate match and receive win or play it out' option.

I don't get a terapagos clause not because we can't do it, but I'd rather disable the tera button to effectively nerf kingambit or some shit over nerfing terapagos to bring it down. If it was as easy as just saying only terapagos gets the tera button similar to mega ray, ok sure there's no real comparison then, but if you're just now deciding we can turn off what makes a particular pokemon OP the implications could and should be applied to others as well... or just ban the mechanic in its entirety since we're bringing up previous non-negotiable options like terapagos.
 
Last edited:
Respectfully; I'm just curious what your reasoning would be for 'matter of balance'?

The pokemon that are currently top threats are able to sustain a position of 'strong but not immediately ban worthy' after essentially years of calling for them to be banned.
Move was not broken, in my personal opinion, and barely got banned while a ton of people voted for it to be banned for the sake of shaking things up. A retest would require a pretty substantial amount of support to bring it back and I doubt it gets there, but it’s the common sense follow up to such a seismic ban with such a close margin if support is there (and numerous people on council support it).

The second paragraph here is just weird. None of these Pokemon got banned with Tera Blast either and Kyurem was the only one that was even close with Dragonite maybe trending there. People are still calling for Kyu/Gamb/other abusers to be banned sometimes, but there wasn’t a majority of people calling for this before or after Tera Blast. A lot of my position is just sorting data and the numbers don’t back much cause-and-effect you’re claiming, to put it bluntly.
The instant TB comes back you would have to ban dragonite, its not even an argument, dragonite would need to be gone within a month and I know you know this based off the surveys happening throughout that entire period and the hesitation for dragonite's test being that it'd be a huge time sink having to ban it and then subsequently whatever pops up as the next tera problem child, and then retest when tera blast would evidently be banned anyways. Regieleki would be quickbanned the same patch that tera blast ice comes back, kingambit and kyurem's frustration would go up even more, and you'd end up with extra unforeseen consequences like tera blast fighting cresselia cheesing past its current checks as an already solid pokemon. The fact we can discuss moon/volc as potential drops (and I know volc is still plausible, you even voiced it was fine, its just really difficult to unban something painted as 'annoying', half those do not ban arguments were basically 'don't shake up the game its fine as is' & 'i never liked it, don't care') and unban mons like regieleki should be a good indicator for just how comfortable the game is now, even if drops rarely or never happen it sure beats wanting to ban what we do have which would always be a higher priority than drops.
We have another 13 months this generation. Dragonite wouldn’t get banned instantly as it was very borderline before, which the survey numbers attest to, so I’m not sure why you’re exaggerating for effect rather than reflecting the reality of the situation. There would be ample time to react, suspect, and let the tier settle. Regi is largely whatever, it’s not a relevant Pokemon now. And Kyurem remained OU twice with Tera Blast. You can want the move banned or like the tier better now without making an argument that is out of sync with data and reality! It’s ok to disagree while acknowledging there is some points that work against your underlying thesis. Feel like threads like this derail so often as people stray from facts and figures or make up their own.
 
Move was not broken, in my personal opinion, and barely got banned while a ton of people voted for it to be banned for the sake of shaking things up. A retest would require a pretty substantial amount of support to bring it back and I doubt it gets there, but it’s the common sense follow up to such a seismic ban with such a close margin if support is there (and numerous people on council support it).

The second paragraph here is just weird. None of these Pokemon got banned with Tera Blast either and Kyurem was the only one that was even close with Dragonite maybe trending there. People are still calling for Kyu/Gamb/other abusers to be banned sometimes, but there wasn’t a majority of people calling for this before or after Tera Blast. A lot of my position is just sorting data and the numbers don’t back much cause-and-effect you’re claiming, to put it bluntly.

We have another 13 months this generation. Dragonite wouldn’t get banned instantly as it was very borderline before, which the survey numbers attest to, so I’m not sure why you’re exaggerating for effect rather than reflecting the reality of the situation. There would be ample time to react, suspect, and let the tier settle. Regi is largely whatever, it’s not a relevant Pokemon now. And Kyurem remained OU twice with Tera Blast. You can want the move banned or like the tier better now without making an argument that is out of sync with data and reality! It’s ok to disagree while acknowledging there is some points that work against your underlying thesis. Feel like threads like this derail so often as people stray from facts and figures or make up their own.
That entire time you had a 1 or 5 split on dragonite cause there was also a 1 or 5 split on tera blast. You ended up with dragonite and tera blast both being ~2.5-3 on majority of the surveys that had both on them cause no one could decide on which would be the better option, you read data as 'neither are overwhelmingly egregious' vs. 'both are problematic and impact the other significantly....' some at the time even called it sabotaging cause the TB-ban crowd genuinely did not find dragonite a worthy option and vice versa. Banning TB makes dragonite managable and removing dragonite is one less TB abuser, what broke the mold was pushing the policy review thread on TB when it was over a year between the roaring moon test on Mar 19th 2025 & Tera blast test on April 9th 2026. That was a whole year of back and forth in the thread on what the ideal solution is when at any point TB could've even had an experimental test just to rule it out of surveys so the focus could be on D-nite primarily, and instead it took 13 months to finally push initiative and it turned out to just not even be an appeasement suspect but a successful one... and that was after multiple instances of moderation blacklisting the subject until it was put back on surveys as a worth while subject.

I don't believe it'd get unbanned in a retest but we really don't have 13 months judging off the pace of previous precedent to recover whatever mistakes result from a TB test and then a follow up d-nite test unless you intend on skipping the monthly surveys and rapid firing test even before tour, assuming moon is also going to have a run here shortly... and then TB.. and if TB comes back we're back to moon/dnite again.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, i know its not really in the spirit of Smogon, but Tera Blast might be more fair if the tera types of opposing Pokémon were displayed. I'm not an OU pro obviously, but I think part of what made Tera so cool in VGC was that you knew what you could be up against in terms of Tera, so you could play around it.
Open tera has been brought up a ton before but it would never work.

All it would do is just turn every turn into a 50/50 of should I tera fire in front of moltres to dodge but not should I save it because they won't go for a burn since they know I have it.

It also takes away a ton of skill expression of figuring out teras and sets, which is one of the best parts about sv as it rewards knowing a lot about the meta and teends
 
That entire time you had a 1 or 5 split on dragonite cause there was also a 1 or 5 split on tera blast. You ended up with dragonite and tera blast both being ~2.5-3 on majority of the surveys that had both on them cause no one could decide on which would be the better option,
So the community wasn’t sure which, if either, needed action and when the council decided to proceed with Tera Blast, it was an incredibly close vote. Now we have seen the fallout and a lot of people wonder if it wasn’t for the best and want to give the community a chance to reevaluate. Sounds like healthy reflection and common sense cause-and-effect to me.

At the end of the day, virtually any ban or no ban within a few % margin gets heavy discussion for another suspect or a retest down the line. We saw this with Kyurem. We flirted with another Tera test and another Kingambit test on numerous occasions. We have seen this during prior generations. And so on.

I feel like you’re missing the plot a bit. This is just the most sound and consistent process given the information available to us and the metagame’s circumstances.
unless you intend on skipping the monthly surveys
We haven’t done monthly surveys in eons and they’re more something we would see quarterly or on an “as needed” basis.
 
Caveat to everything I am about to say: I am not a Policy TD. Everything to follow are my non-expert thoughts, not as a TD. I like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of the arguments that have gone down in the Policy forum in the past and of why decisions have gone one way or another, but do not count on me as an expert or even a particularly valuable judge of *why* tiering policy should be one way or another.

None of this applies to a Roaring Moon unban, which is a pretty simple assessment of whether it's still broken without Tera Blast. But re: Terapagos unban, this is probably not the place to make this post because any change on Terapagos's OU status would need to happen in the Policy Review forum, but I'll make it here in case any OU Forum regulars are not sure why certain possible tiering actions are currently not available to the OU Council. Maybe this is getting a bit into nitpick territory, but I feel like referring to everything that's not a simple Pokemon ban as a "complex" ban is obscuring major differences and major reasons why people might be open to one but not the other. (and to be honest I think this is probably a blindspot in the tiering policy, there's a mention of ban complexity and why it's avoided but there really isn't detail on different kinds of complex bans) so here goes a non-rigourous taxonomy of "non-simple bans":

Basically, was the Last Respects ban a complex ban? The argument (and I can't remember who made this in policy) basically goes like "OU has a banlist, which is the Ubers tier. Every pure Pokemon ban is a simple one because it doesn't add any new rules to the ruleset, it just adds another mon to the banlist. Any non-Pokemon ban is complex because it requires adding a new rule to the OU ruleset." The updated tiering policy allows these, with certain criteria on when such bans are justified compared to Pokemon bans (most recently applied during the Tera Blast ban). These have been embedded into the standard ruleset for a long time, in the form of the OHKO move ban and the Moody ban.

So are these complex bans? Well, they're more complex than simple Pokemon bans (hence why there are specific burdens of proof they have to meet that simple Pokemon bans aren't subject to), but they're allowed! And they're less complex than several other kinds of bans.

This is probably what most people think of when they hear "complex ban." This sort of ban has, in the past, been widely mocked. The most famous representative of this sort is probably the hypothetical "Blaziken + Speed Boost," which would be a ruleset-imposed nerf of a by-consensus broken element (Blaziken) by selectively taking away its access to a non-broken element (Speed Boost) that pushes it over the edge. If you pay attention to arguments particularly on DPP/BW tiering policy, you might notice that some corners of the site very much want bans of this sort, with Jirachi + Iron Head in DPP and Excadrill + Sand Force being examples I've seen. Some SV stakeholders (prominently including lax, iirc) have pushed for an Archaludon + Electroshot ban, which would fall into this category.

Without weighing in too heavily on this topic, allowing said bans would, in theory, allow for the entirety of the Ubers tier to be revisited for conditional unbans. Could Zamazenta-C be a healthy addition to OU with Iron Defense banned? Complex bans of this sort would fundamentally change the entire way tiering on the site works.

There's no ambiguity as to whether or not these are complex bans, but the important thing to take away here is that the argument against these isn't "complex bans bad ruleset simplicity good." I actually think there are some reasons that complex bans can be fine! It's that now every single ban has to entertain even more conflicting proposals of "is there an alternate path to improving the meta by removing this combination or that combination of elements."

I use this category to highlight that there is a lot of ambiguity as to whether or not non-Pokemon elements should be banned. Personally, I apply to my own thinking the principle of "if tiering will just be a constant game of whack-a-mole with the latest abuser as long as the non-Pokemon element remains unbanned, then target the non-Pokemon element". Different people have different thresholds; seems like the official threshold is 2 abusers (why Shed Tail wasn't banned until Orthworm was ruled broken), different people disagree with that.

However, what will occasionally get proposed are "simple non-Pokemon bans" that serve the same purpose as the aforementioned Blaziken + Speed Boost ban, to selectively ban a Pokemon by banning a single element of it. See: proposed bans of Sand Force in BW and Iron Head in DPP. These are the source of some heated policy forum arguments. Basically, I would argue that a hypothetical Electroshot ban would fall here, on the basis that it's not different enough from Meteor Beam to be ruled broken while the latter isn't. An Electroshot ban would be the way to nerf Archaludon enough to bring it back to OU without explicitly using a complex ban, and since it's exclusive to Archaludon, there's no collateral.

For what it's worth, I think the reason that Heat Rock/Damp Rock rarely get targeted, and the issue that Light Clay has, is that they kinda fall into this category. Generally the order of operations here goes abuser ban -> setter ban -> weather ban, with common elements among abusers fitting in there somewhere. Banning the weather stones, likewise banning Light Clay doesn't actually remove a broken element at all, it aims to nerf the field effect just enough to be not broken. It's imprecise and requires a lot more guesswork.

I'll also point out that opponents of the Tera Blast ban, and this is the reason that it took so long to happen, hold that Tera Blast was never broken, people just didn't have the appetite to ban its broken abusers (which, by the end, was basically just Dragonite at the time of the suspect test). Proponents of the test argued that, no, it wasn't just Dragonite (or Nite + Gambit + Kyurem), it was that Tera Blast generally buffed offensive threats and increased the variance in the tier to detrimental effect. I've always been a little skeptical of this idea. To this end, I agree with Mimikyu Stardust, although I don't really agree that cheeselord shitters having access to a move to blast past their counters was a particularly good thing for the meta. Would have been in favour of a Dnite suspect, though.

Think of the historical Aldaron's Proposal (Drizzle + Swift Swim in BW) or various Baton Pass restrictions (Swords Dance + Baton Pass). To my knowledge, nobody advocates for these outside of Baton Pass, and I'm not going to reiterate the ongoing debates here. Not relevant here

Think Mega Evolution. In order to Mega Evolve, the Pokemon needs to hold the appropriate Mega Stone. As such, a ban on, for instance, Mega Metagross can be implemented either as a ban on base Metagross, a ban on the item Metagrossite, or an in-battle restriction on the player's ability to Mega Evolve Metagross. From what I know, Mega Evolutions are actually a weird case where the teambuilder actually applies the ban as a complex Pokemon + item restriction, but the principle for why this kind of ban has always been okay, at least, is that it's possible to do it as just an item ban. The same principle applies to Battle Bond on Greninja.

Now, note that this route was available in the case of ORAS Mega Rayquaza, and it notably was NOT the route that was taken. Rayquaza could have been banned, so could Dragon Ascent. We'll mention this again later.

This is a whole different kind of complexity. Policy has previously made the distinction that Pokemon can differ in form by whether there's a base stat change. This was brought up as a way to distinguish Terapagos-Stellar from Ogerpon-Hearthflame-Tera, and presumably as a result of this debate, such language is not really in the updated tiering policy. Rather, what currently matters in terms of tiering policy is that for both forms, a ban cannot be implemented purely on the level of the teambuilder/team validator. Instead, any ban that targets those forms can either be implemented in the form of a teambuilder ban on the base form or a restriction on the player's in-game actions.

There is, however, precedent for said bans. The obvious one is the Dynamax ban, which, from what I understand, is a ban that can only be implemented by restricting both players from clicking the Dynamax button (which is most simply done by removing the button altogether). The same is true of a hypothetical Tera ban.

These are blanket bans that aren't conditional on gamestates, however. One proposed implementation of a cartridge-replicable Sleep Clause, for tiers like RBY OU that don't want to outright ban sleep moves, would be to prevent the player from selecting a sleep move while a Pokemon on the other team is asleep. This change has some defenders, at this point not enough. A hypothetical Terapagos-Stellar ban would fall into this category, which prevents a player from clicking the Tera button specifically with Terapagos. The ORAS Mega Rayquaza ban fits in this category, and not everyone is happy with the official policy position that this cannot be used as precedent (personally, I feel like it's very simple to just take the position of "the Mega Ray ban was a mistake, policy-wise, and it only exists now because it's grandfathered in")

As a side note, in retrospect I think it's kinda crazy that the Tera Captain proposal was ever entertained as acceptable policy (same with the restriction to same-type Tera but idr if that ever made it into the vote). Tera Preview at least has precedent in official Nintendo tournaments.

What was the point of all this? It's to say that these are very different kinds of bans and the reason people oppose them are very different. Like, not as a matter of obsession with tiering policy minutiae, but just in terms of how Smogon tiering should work on principle. People oppose a hypothetical Archaludon + Electroshot ban because that would entail intentionally nerfing Archaludon to make it just weak enough to be unbanned to OU, and doing so sets precedent to reevaluate the entire Ubers tier in this way. People oppose a flat Electroshot ban because it's obviously not broken, Archaludon is just strong enough on rain with it to be broken; after all, Meteor Beam isn't broken (there's probably room to argue that if its distribution wasn't limited, Electroshot would enable enough Pokemon to become destructive forces that push rain over the edge to justify a ban, and I don't think that hypothetical is obviously wrong or obviously right. Obviously different case from DPP Iron Head, though).

These are completely different reasons than the ones that would lead someone to oppose a Terapagos unban (you don't really need to agree with the tiering principle that restrictions on the teambuilder level are preferable, but that's how it goes). It wouldn't be selectively nerfing Terapagos any more than banning Mega Metagross selectively nerfs Metagross, but that's not the issue. The issue is that it's a ban that's impossible to implement in the teambuilder, so it would have to happen by blocking the Tera button on Terapagos specifically in-battle (or by awarding anyone who clicks Tera with their Terapagos an immediate game loss; probably shouldn't have to explain why that's a bad idea).

So if someone asks "are you, personally, open to complex bans?" I'd say, well, depends. Do you mean taking away Ubers' signature moves to free them in OU? No, on principle I think that's revolting, should never be entertained. Do you mean a DPP Snow Warning + Snow Cloak complex ban so that Spike lead Froslass doesn't need to be entirely nuked from the tier as collateral? Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Do you mean freeing Terapagos and preventing it from using Tera (which is different from restricting Tera on any other mon because no other mon adds a bunch of stats when it clicks Tera, this is obviously a unique case)? I don't really have a problem with it on principle, honestly. So anyway, if any of you have ever thought "Smogon hates complex bans because all the admins go to sleep with a copy of the tiering policy under their pillows", here's my slightly more common-sense rationale
I appreciate the extremely in-depth breakdown of all the different manner of approaching bans. I preface with this because I also want to mention a few edge cases to some that I think are worth acknowledging even if they don't change the outcome, Devil's Advocate of a sort.

With regards to Electro Shot, I do think at the moment it would not be worth tiering separate from Archaludon as a signature move, but I do think it is underselling it to say it is not too different from Meteor Beam. Purely looking at the moves themselves, Electro Shot having a low-maintenance instant-charge condition is a singular but massive upgrade over Meteor Beam that fundamentally changes how the move can be used, not least of which being no restriction to a one-time use item to allow use on more Pivot-heavy mons like its current Archaludon. Pedantic on my part, but do think it is worth noting given how fine the minutae of banned Pokemon or elements alike can get.

More broadly with the in-battle elements, there IS a niche difference in implementing the Mega bans as "cannot click the Mega button" rather than "ban/cannot hold the Mega Stone": even without Mega evolving, the stone functions as an occupied but unremovable item, which can have a few use cases for things like Knock Off absorbers and defensive Pokemon that want to be immune to Trick such as (later) Clefable or Skarmory. This becomes a point worth bringing up because at the top level, both implementations accomplish the same thing, but digging into the policy, it can raise the question of if we want the specific method to be simple to understand (ban the item outright) or minimal collateral even with specific technical implementation (cannot click the Button). Neither is invalid, but it is again a point I think to raise if Policy review ever delves into these principles that could extend to other mechanic elements.

Rayquaza clause in turn went with the "can't click" approach because base Rayquaza being banned or unable to use Dragon Ascent was a much more significant knock-on effect for its tier than removing a Mega Stone, while Terapagos presents an even lower-collateral case where the alternative to the "no button" approach can only be the actual mon. The broadening of Super-form mechanics keeps chipping away at the elements Smogon Policy has worked around, and at minimum highlights that said policy needs to be more fluid/living if it wants to be applied to new generations. I feel like this would have been a conversation we had in Gen 8 if Dynamax hadn't been ridiculous enough to remove in its entirety (essentially, the Gen 9-spanning Singles Tera discussion).

A side note on Rayquaza, I think the irony of its Mega ban from Ubers vs Ubers-OU tiering distinctions is that Mega Ray was, to my recollection, the first mon banned from Ubers for "Overpowered/Centralization" reasoning as opposed to uncompetitive ones (OHKO/Evasion clause) and thus the impetus for Ubers Metas to consider such bans afterward, even with a very high bar to clear, leading to things like the DPP Farceus situation, or later Gen bans on Zacian, Tera Calyrex-S, and Miraidon. Not strictly an argument, but I find it amusing that an Ubers ban, brought up for/against as a precedent on an OU change, simultaneously raises the notion that Ubers (legitimately) tiers very differently from OU and thus shouldn't factor in, while simultaneously being one of the first and few tierings that hemmed close to more standard tiering policies.

The tricky thing with Terapagos to discuss at this stage is that almost every facet of a "Terapagos-Stellar specifically" ban has some precedent in at least a one-off or edge case in Smogon Official formats, but it rocks the boat a lot more because it calls many of those ideas to mind at once (Collateral, the "point" of bans/unbans for a Mon vs the Tier at large, simplicity in logical vs technical implementation etc).
 
Open tera has been brought up a ton before but it would never work.

All it would do is just turn every turn into a 50/50 of should I tera fire in front of moltres to dodge but not should I save it because they won't go for a burn since they know I have it.

It also takes away a ton of skill expression of figuring out teras and sets, which is one of the best parts about sv as it rewards knowing a lot about the meta and teends
Fair enough. Thanks for the insight
 
I think the Terapagos discussions get so deeply abstract into tiering philosophy and poke lawyering that it ignores that anyone playing SV OU in September 2026 wants to be here. Playerbase is shrinking by the day, I don’t think there’s any harm in just letting him in if it improves the tier. Is the meta for us, the players, or for some hypothetical person who can’t comprehend why Terapagos-S can’t be used in OU? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Yeah, all the newbies are gravitating to Champions OU because megas and the only people that stayed here is either people that really likes the format, like some of you, or people that hates hazards so much and won't play Champions OU 'til we get something more than Corviknight, Excadrill and Quaquaval, like me.
 
Hey everyone! This post isn't very related to what I've recently been talking about here (thankfully)

As of today I am running the sv ou speed tiers thread. I'm currently going through and updating a lot of mons that see practically no usage or just shouldn't be on the list, while also making changes to try and stay consistent with any messed up formatting, and most importantly adding new mons that weren't on their before.

I'll have a post soon going over all the changes I made, but if anyone has anything feel free to put it in the thread which you can find here. Also much thanks and big shout out to sequoia who hosted before I did.

Have a good one!
 
I think the Terapagos discussions get so deeply abstract into tiering philosophy and poke lawyering that it ignores that anyone playing SV OU in September 2026 wants to be here. Playerbase is shrinking by the day, I don’t think there’s any harm in just letting him in if it improves the tier. Is the meta for us, the players, or for some hypothetical person who can’t comprehend why Terapagos-S can’t be used in OU? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Amen! As Terapagos’ strongest soldier, I think this is the crux of the justification for its unban; it feels like we’re bending over backwards to interpret the tiering philosophy in a way that is both unpopular with the playerbase and actively hurts the tier, forgetting that the rules exist to serve us to begin with. The complex ban rulings exist because justifying Archaludon without Electro Shot genuinely does open the gates for a theoretical worse version of OU where we fill our ruleset with dozens upon dozens if not hundreds of additional bans in order to craft a metagame where every Pokémon is legal, which would lead to an infinitely more complicated and unapproachable ruleset for a metagame that would arguably not even be better. Insituting a form ban for Terapagos-Stellar through a clause and just treating it tiering-wise as a ban on a Pokémon opens up no such slippery slope because it’s a wholly unique case, and solely serves to benefit the playerbase and the tier, which is the function of tiering. Hell, we literally have an existing complex ban on our ruleset specifically because the entire playerbase agrees it’s in the best interest of the health of the game competitively to have it, and it’s called Infinite Battle Clause. Fundamentally I don’t think banning Terapagos-Stellar truly constitutes what would definitionally be called a complex ban, but even if someone thinks it does, in what way does it create negative precedent that can be followed up on and in what ways does it actively benefit our tier to keep it this way? In my opinion: none and zero, respectively.

For what it’s worth, I also maintain that there’s an avenue to justify Terapagos-Stellar under current Smogon tiering policy as well; I’ve talked about it in the past, and I’ll try to provide a new post elaborating on it again later tonight.
 
If Terapagos-Stellar is on the table, I believe that instead of making a specific ruling allowing base Terapagos and causing future problems, it'd be better to clearly define what constitutes a distinct form for tiering purposes.

I believe the requirements should be that:

1) The user has complete control over when the form change occurs. It can trigger off anything - using a specific move, activating a generational mechanic, switching in, whatever - but it has to be intentional and it has to be at will, barring a one-time limit to a mechanic like mega evolution or terastalization.

2) Nothing the opponent can do can prevent the form change from occurring, other than potentially knocking out or phasing the mon first.

There is, however, a problem with this - an in-game form change would be difficult to impossible to capture usage statistics. The distinct tiering would likely need to be limited to the alternate form being bannable from a tier, rather than rising based on usage.
 
Idk smogon has had odd policy regarding forme changes in the past as well. One of the easiest examples is Genesect, which technically has 5 different forms that could hold different drives, but we're banned mostly for - from the outside looking in - vibes-based reasoning like "Shift Gear is still broken", "its too similar to the base form", "Douse Drive let's it beat its counters" (which in that case ban Douse Drive and let it use the other drives). Maybe this is all true but it never got any due process to my knowledge.

I do agree a broader definition of forms would be nice - because as far as I'm concerned - genesect with drives is no different than something like Zamazenta-Crowmed or Ogerpon forms in the sense that it has a different page in the pokedex, it is Item locked (so can't be tricked or Knocked off), and it affects a specific move it runs.

With Terapagos - the arguenent against unbanning it at least makes sense since you are preventing a core mechanic of the game from being used. It would be like banning switching so that a player could use just Baby palafin instead of Palafin Hero. Obviously not 1-1 and Terapagos at least has some precedent given how Mega Rayquaza was handled + i am more biased in including Terap in the tier through some means lol, but I do see the arg for banning it is what I'm trying to say

Anyways to take discussion off a mon not in SV + unbans that likely won't happen, what are some interesting developments in sets / Team comps we have been seeing for SV this late into the gen? I have been seeing some balance teams incorporate Slither Wing more to - I believe check Darkrai & other threats like dnite, though I think this development was already known about. The sets running utility moves + mono bug stab is more interesting though that I don't recall ever seeing before.
 
I will say this is def more interesting the other metagame discussions as of recently lol. I'm sure if terapagos tera form never existed this would've never happened but the discussion being more about the Smogon policy is much more interesting imo loll
 
There is, however, a problem with this - an in-game form change would be difficult to impossible to capture usage statistics. The distinct tiering would likely need to be limited to the alternate form being bannable from a tier, rather than rising based on usage.
There is no way to force a player to mega evolve during a battle, and in some cases (such as with Mega Slowbro) it might even be optimal to keep your mega unevolved in certain matchups. Usage stats simply treat any Slowbro holding Slowbronite as Slowbro-Mega, regardless of what happened over the course of any battle.

If Terapagos were to be freed, it would have to be done via a clause, which could be checked for while generating stats.
If the format has the clause in question, usage stats would treat it as Terapagos-Terastal. Formats without the clause would calculate it as Terapagos-Stellar.
 
Idk smogon has had odd policy regarding forme changes in the past as well. One of the easiest examples is Genesect, which technically has 5 different forms that could hold different drives, but we're banned mostly for - from the outside looking in - vibes-based reasoning like "Shift Gear is still broken", "its too similar to the base form", "Douse Drive let's it beat its counters" (which in that case ban Douse Drive and let it use the other drives). Maybe this is all true but it never got any due process to my knowledge.

I do agree a broader definition of forms would be nice - because as far as I'm concerned - genesect with drives is no different than something like Zamazenta-Crowmed or Ogerpon forms in the sense that it has a different page in the pokedex, it is Item locked (so can't be tricked or Knocked off), and it affects a specific move it runs.

With Terapagos - the arguenent against unbanning it at least makes sense since you are preventing a core mechanic of the game from being used. It would be like banning switching so that a player could use just Baby palafin instead of Palafin Hero. Obviously not 1-1 and Terapagos at least has some precedent given how Mega Rayquaza was handled + i am more biased in including Terap in the tier through some means lol, but I do see the arg for banning it is what I'm trying to say

Magcargo made a very interesting point about Genesect and why the argument against unbanning Terapagos-Terastal makes sense. As he'd indicated, Genesect when holding any of its Drive items cannot have the item-removal effect from Knock Off triggered, doesn't take the 1.5x damage from Knock Off, cannot be affected by Trick and Switcheroo, and Techno Blast's attacking-Type changing depending on the specific Drive item used is quite notable.

Even if Genesect with its different Drive items don't have different Pokédex entries, there is already a precedent on this with the alternate forms of Rotom, which don't have their own separate Dex entries and personally, I'd say Genesect holding one of its Drive items shares more in common with mons such as the alternate Ogerpon mask forms given it not being able to lose its item, how it cannot be affected by Trick or Switcheroo while having a specific signature move, Techno Blast, that changes type much like Ivy Cudgel does even if it doesn't have a typing change like the alternative Rotom forms do. I believe the case can very much be made that Genesect holding a Drive item is functionally a different Pokémon than base Genesect given its differences and limitations compared to the base form, standing out more than the alternate Rotom forms due to its item limitation, Knock Off, Trick, and Switcheroo immunity, and changing Technoblast type compared to the alternate Ogerpon forms even if it doesn't have a changed typing or a moveset changed compared to the alternate Rotom forms, which don't even get a signature move of their own but a widely available move that corresponds to their respective alternative typings.

However, I don't see the justification for unbanning Terapagos-Terastal 'cause Terapagos-Stellar's transformation is directly tied to the Terastal mechanic, and one wouldn't play every match or even nearly every match determined to Terastalize Terapagos-Terastal no matter what if the opposing team has a very solid check or counter to it. The only even remotely similar comparison would be the case of Slowbro and Mega Slowbro if the opposing team has loads of hazards, you have poor removal or your removal matches up poorly against the opposing team, and the opposing team doesn't have a physical beast that requires one to use Mega Slowbro to check, but in most cases, one will want to use Mega Slowbro eventually during the course of a battle, not to mention that just holding Slowbronite limits the amount of choices available to Slowbro even in its base form since it can't hold another item, cannot lose its Mega Stone, and takes decreased damage from Knock Off.

Banning Terapagos-Terastal from Terastalizing is very much arbitrary and has no predecence in OU. Yeah, I know, there's Mega Rayquaza, but that's an Uber-specific precedent from a format that priorititizes banning as little as possible, and you'd choose to Mega Evolve to Mega Rayquaza every time given how much of an upgrade compared to Rayquaza it is. Terapagos-Terastal also can very much have its item removed, and you wouldn't use your Tera on it every time given how important Tera is as a mechanic even if Terapagos-Stellar is extremely powerful for OU, and much of its effectiveness is also innately tied to Terapagos-Terastal's Ability, Tera Shell, that in conjunction with Heavy-Duty Boots, gives it more leeway to be a centralizing force. While I agree that Terapagos-Terastal would be a healthy addition to OU, I believe making it available breaks too much precedents in OU by denying JUST ONE Pokémon the ability to use a universal mechanic, especially since you'd have to clause it for it to be legal in OU.

As for what tiering action I would like to see, it'd only be Ceruledge or Light Clay due to just how rewarding players properly positioning themselves to give Ceruledge an opening is one reason why Screens HO is as powerful as it is as an archetype, in part due to how much role compression Ceruledge provides as well as how much of an immediate threat it is despite it not being used on every Screens HO 'cause of how much of an immediate threat it is given how strong its STAB combo is with Poltergeist being nuclear and how Bitter Blade is a cheap move that lets it duel 1v1 and heal itself against mons it shouldn't have any business doing given Bitter Blade is already a 90 Base Power move and didn't need such a powerful effect given Fire is already a top offensive typing.

Ideally, I'd prefer action on Ceruledge first since I believe a ban on Ceruledge would be enough to rein in Screens HO due to the mere threat of Ceruledge on Screens HO and also outside of it due to how punishing misplaying against it is. If Screens HO is still nearly as consistent and strong as it is after Ceruledge is gone, I guess a Light Clay suspect could make sense given even after a significant teambuilding pressure had been removed, Screens HO still being borderline an issue would be a problem. Although I could be wrong on Cresselia, I feel the meta is moreso going through a phase similar to when some people struggled against Pecharunt heavily due to people starting to use it to its full potential. Although Cress is very strong now, I don't think it's outright broken, at least not yet, and I believe there shouldn't be any immediate action on Cresselia, and I personally find it useful as a defensive glue and as a win con in a tier littered with threats that has reasonable counterplay in Encore, Taunt, and physical set-up. That isn't to say I don't understand why some people want Cress suspected as I do believe Cress is a better mon than Garganacl ever was and Garg was never broken as players started learning how to play against Garg.

Roaring Moon just has no chance of being unbanned if given a suspect test given Volcarona was a less contentious Pokemon and was banned by a comfortable margin despite Volc being way more reliant on Tera Blast than Roaring Moon ever, not to mention Roaring Moon also being a much more immediate threat through its much better coverage options compared to Volcarona and its higher speed, meaning there'd likely be more support for keeping Roaring Moon banned than Volcarona. Roaring Moon, even if it were to drop to limit scarf Gholdengo, Samurott-Hisui, Ceruledge, and Ogerpon-Wellspring usage would just make HO stronger, which isn't something needed right now. Roaring Moon was also a big threat even without Tera Blast Fairy, so I fully believe suspecting it would be a waste of time since all it'd do is make the meta worse before the end of the generation when actions should be taken to improve the meta rather than make it worse.

As for re-suspecting Tera Blast, I don't think that is necessary or even wanted by much of the playerbase. Allowing a Pokemon to randomly cheese counterplay with a coverage option it normally wouldn't have access to isn't fully healthy since type advantages, at least before Gen 9 was introduced, were core to the fundamentals of the game. There's a reason why some people didn't enjoy shit like Z-Giga Impact Kartana in Gen 7 'cause let's be real, nobody would regularly use Giga Impact Kartana if Z-Moves didn't exist as the downside of Giga Impact was so huge, and Tera Blast giving one access to strong coverage that can be STAB-boosted with the only drawback being committing your Tera to that Pokemon with Tera Blast in its moveset isn't as much of an opportunity cost as some people propose it to be. Based on your opponent team's composition, one will have a good idea whether your Tera Blast mon is what you need to advance the game state and one's positioning toward a win, so it's overblown how much of a sunk cost having a Tera Blast sweeper is.

So my preferred order of action would be:

1. Suspect Ceruledge
2. Suspect Light Clay
3. Do Nothing
 
Last edited:
Even if Genesect with its different Drive items don't have different Pokédex entries, there is already a precedent on this with the alternate forms of Rotom, and personally, I'd say Genesect holding one of its Drive items shares more with mons such as Zamazenta-Crowned or the different Ogerpon mask forms given it not being able to lose its item, how it cannot be affected by Trick or Switcheroo while having a specific move that changes type much like Ivy Cudgel even if it doesn't have a typing change like the alternative Rotom forms do. I believe the case can very much be made that Genesect holding a Drive item is functionally a different Pokémon than base Genesect given its differences and limitations compared to the base form.
Genesect doesn't change its typing or BST when holding the Drive items so I don't get how it's comparable to Zama-Crown or Ogerpon at all. Of course you could say that this criterion of typing or BST is arbitrary, but only under a definition of arbitrary that would make any and all of the Smogon rules arbitrary too.
However, I don't see the justification for unbanning Terapagos-Terastal 'cause Terapagos-Stellar's transformation is directly tied to the Terastal mechanic, and one wouldn't play every match or even nearly every match determined to Terastalize Terapagos-Terastal no matter what if the opposing team has a very solid check or counter to it. The only even remotely similar comparison would be the case of Slowbro and Mega Slowbro if the opposing team has loads of hazards, you have poor removal or your removal matches up poorly against the opposing team, and the opposing team doesn't have a physical beast that requires one to use Mega Slowbro to check, but in most cases, one will want to use Mega Slowbro eventually during the course of a battle, not to mention that just holding Slowbronite limits the amount of choices available to Slowbro even in its base form since it can't hold another item, cannot lose its Mega Stone, and takes decreased damage from Knock Off.
I fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion about freeing Terapagos-Terastall. Sometimes you need the OP form and sometimes you'd rather Tera something else and win with base Terapagos. And? Base Terapagos is an OU level pokemon that is useful, and sometimes using tera on something else provides a bigger advantage than using Terapagos-Stellar. How this furthers the anti-unbanning cause is beyond me.
Banning Terapagos-Terastal from Terastalizing is very much arbitrary and has no predecence in OU.
It is arbitrary, again, only through a definition of arbitrary that would make any other decision or rule arbitrary. The reasons are there: It's a different form, it has different stats, it's similar to mega evolution, it has a precedent in Ubers. It has no precedent in OU, but... Gamefreak keeps throwing these new mechanics that interact with pokemons in different ways each generation, and Smogon as a community must adapt to these curveballs. What if Gen 10, Gen 11, etc. have different mechanics that give some mons different forms like Mega-Rayquaza, like Terapagos-Stellar? Hell, at some point gamefreak is going to do away with turn based combat in mainline games, the concept of "current gen ou" as a whole will change, rules will change. Rules have to be malleable.

Because what's the point of rules? Rules should serve the the community and the game, not the other way around. When pro complex ban people argue that a lot of antis are rule obsessed people that care more about the book than the game, I usually disagree. Like no, you cannot create your custom metagame by picking and banning the parts of the pokemon that you don't want to see and have your frankestein tier. You can't ban Iron Head just on Jirachi, the combination of Snow Warning and Froslass, etc. Because this is actually arbitrary, this is a custom rule to preserve a particular mon in a metagame. I can't disagree now.

It could be argued that we are doing the same by asking for a rule change to free Terapagos, but there are more cases. Rayquaza, Zamazenta and Zacian. It is a change that will also serve future metagames, should the new mechanics introduce similar situations. The fact that you can get rid of Zamazenta crowned by banning the item is
a) A technical difference of how different bans have to be implemented, and I can say that the fact that this is the case should have no bearing when it comes to policy.
b) The items are not banned, the forms are banned, this team is legal in SVOU:
1790646113759.png

So you have to add a clause, remove the Tera button in battle, as opposed to stopping you from bringing Zama-Crowned when you click play and showdown verifies the legality of your team. To me this does not matter.
 
Sometimes you need the OP form and sometimes you'd rather Tera something else and win with base Terapagos. And? Base Terapagos is an OU level pokemon that is useful, and sometimes using tera on something else provides a bigger advantage than using Terapagos-Stellar.
i don't know about this. it's hard to extrapolate from the less than 24 hours we had it in the tier, but during that time there was legitimately no better option for tera than clicking it on terapagos unless you were immediately about to win with something else. the advantage the stellar form provided was so insanely massive that it outweighed everything else, to the point where it was optimal to sack whatever mon you'd normally tera just to preserve it for terapagos
 
I have been reading all of the posts in this discussion about Terapagos as a whole and it seemingly comes down to people agreeing that Terapagos-Terastal would be a healthy addition to the OU metagame, but the idea that adding a new Terapagos specific clause is too complicated(?) or breaks Smogon foundational tiering ideas, which would then (possibly) cause problems in the future for tiering. I believe that most of this conversation is getting derailed.
I think the Terapagos discussions get so deeply abstract into tiering philosophy and poke lawyering that it ignores that anyone playing SV OU in September 2026 wants to be here. Playerbase is shrinking by the day, I don’t think there’s any harm in just letting him in if it improves the tier. Is the meta for us, the players, or for some hypothetical person who can’t comprehend why Terapagos-S can’t be used in OU? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think Negative Charge nails it, we are letting theory prevent what could be a perfectly reasonable new pokemon into the metagame. If this does't fit the definition of needing a suspect test, I'm not sure what else would. Why not try to implement a clause for it, especially, and correct me if I'm wrong here, if it seems like 99% of this discussion involves saying Terapagos-Terastal would be healthy. Simply removing Terapagos-Terastal from being able to tera gives everyone the same advantage when seen on team preview, it's the same as if you are playing on cartridge and gentlemen's to not tera a certain pokemon (I also believe certain pokemon should have been tera banned rather than banning tera blast if that helps). Regardless, I don't think harping on rules and tiering is furthering any sort of discussion when we haven't even bothered to suspect Terapagos-Terastal without tera. Why not just give it a try?
 
Banning Terapagos-Terastal from Terastalizing is very much arbitrary and has no predecence in OU. Yeah, I know, there's Mega Rayquaza, but that's an Uber-specific precedent from a format that priorititizes banning as little as possible, and you'd choose to Mega Evolve to Mega Rayquaza every time given how much of an upgrade compared to Rayquaza it is. Terapagos-Terastal also can very much have its item removed, and you wouldn't use your Tera on it every time given how important Tera is as a mechanic even if Terapagos-Stellar is extremely powerful for OU, and much of its effectiveness is also innately tied to Terapagos-Terastal's Ability, Tera Shell, that in conjunction with Heavy-Duty Boots, gives it more leeway to be a centralizing force. While I agree that Terapagos-Terastal would be a healthy addition to OU, I believe making it available breaks too much precedents in OU by denying JUST ONE Pokémon the ability to use a universal mechanic, especially since you'd have to clause it for it to be legal in OU.
Sorry if I'm being reductive but banning Mega Rayquaza could've just been done by banning Dragon Ascent, something already precedented by Baton Pass, instead of making a dedicated clause, despite banning Dragon Ascent definitely being the less complicated move. The tiering council has always been very inconsistent and flimsy when it comes to "complex bans" and I mostly see it being used as an excuse to not listen to the active player base instead of something actually being too complicated to be understandable.
 
Sorry if I'm being reductive but banning Mega Rayquaza could've just been done by banning Dragon Ascent, something already precedented by Baton Pass, instead of making a dedicated clause, despite banning Dragon Ascent definitely being the less complicated move. The tiering council has always been very inconsistent and flimsy when it comes to "complex bans" and I mostly see it being used as an excuse to not listen to the active player base instead of something actually being too complicated to be understandable.

I believe the reason why Mega Rayquaza Clause was implemented is that Dragon Ascent isn't a broken move in and of itself. Even on base Rayquaza, it couldn't be justified that Dragon Ascent is broken, and that's why there was a clause for Mega Rayquaza. If one is to talk about inconsistency, I'd say banning Commander rather than Tatsugiri in Doubles OU didn't make much sense since the Ability was designed with Tatsugiri in mind and almost certainly won't be made available on another Pokemon since it's a special interaction with Dondozo Tatsugiri has.

Thus, I see something such as Archaludon's ban being consistent with Smogon's tiering historically given Electro Shot wouldn't be all that without Archaludon's high natural bulk, Ability, typing, strong offensive potential, and movepool that gives it just enough to make it really hard to deal with while a specially offensive mon with Ogerpon-Wellspring's speed tier but much less bulk with a worse defensive typing wouldn't be a problem with Electro Shot.
 
Genesect doesn't change its typing or BST when holding the Drive items so I don't get how it's comparable to Zama-Crown or Ogerpon at all. Of course you could say that this criterion of typing or BST is arbitrary, but only under a definition of arbitrary that would make any and all of the Smogon rules arbitrary too.

I fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion about freeing Terapagos-Terastall. Sometimes you need the OP form and sometimes you'd rather Tera something else and win with base Terapagos. And? Base Terapagos is an OU level pokemon that is useful, and sometimes using tera on something else provides a bigger advantage than using Terapagos-Stellar. How this furthers the anti-unbanning cause is beyond me.

It is arbitrary, again, only through a definition of arbitrary that would make any other decision or rule arbitrary. The reasons are there: It's a different form, it has different stats, it's similar to mega evolution, it has a precedent in Ubers. It has no precedent in OU, but... Gamefreak keeps throwing these new mechanics that interact with pokemons in different ways each generation, and Smogon as a community must adapt to these curveballs. What if Gen 10, Gen 11, etc. have different mechanics that give some mons different forms like Mega-Rayquaza, like Terapagos-Stellar? Hell, at some point gamefreak is going to do away with turn based combat in mainline games, the concept of "current gen ou" as a whole will change, rules will change. Rules have to be malleable.

Because what's the point of rules? Rules should serve the the community and the game, not the other way around. When pro complex ban people argue that a lot of antis are rule obsessed people that care more about the book than the game, I usually disagree. Like no, you cannot create your custom metagame by picking and banning the parts of the pokemon that you don't want to see and have your frankestein tier. You can't ban Iron Head just on Jirachi, the combination of Snow Warning and Froslass, etc. Because this is actually arbitrary, this is a custom rule to preserve a particular mon in a metagame. I can't disagree now.

It could be argued that we are doing the same by asking for a rule change to free Terapagos, but there are more cases. Rayquaza, Zamazenta and Zacian. It is a change that will also serve future metagames, should the new mechanics introduce similar situations. The fact that you can get rid of Zamazenta crowned by banning the item is
a) A technical difference of how different bans have to be implemented, and I can say that the fact that this is the case should have no bearing when it comes to policy.
b) The items are not banned, the forms are banned, this team is legal in SVOU:
View attachment 866577
So you have to add a clause, remove the Tera button in battle, as opposed to stopping you from bringing Zama-Crowned when you click play and showdown verifies the legality of your team. To me this does not matter.
I’d like to emphasize your final point. The tiers themselves are ultimately dozens of individual silent clauses enforced in the builder. I genuinely cannot comprehend why “Alomomola cannot be used in UU” is of any higher order of complexity than a “you cannot tera terapagos” clause. It’s a unique edge case. Treat it like one? When another mon gets a BST, ability, move, and sprite change button in battle I would accept in good faith the endless and exhausting slippery slope arguments.
 
However, I don't see the justification for unbanning Terapagos-Terastal 'cause Terapagos-Stellar's transformation is directly tied to the Terastal mechanic, and one wouldn't play every match or even nearly every match determined to Terastalize Terapagos-Terastal no matter what if the opposing team has a very solid check or counter to it. The only even remotely similar comparison would be the case of Slowbro and Mega Slowbro if the opposing team has loads of hazards, you have poor removal or your removal matches up poorly against the opposing team, and the opposing team doesn't have a physical beast that requires one to use Mega Slowbro to check, but in most cases, one will want to use Mega Slowbro eventually during the course of a battle, not to mention that just holding Slowbronite limits the amount of choices available to Slowbro even in its base form since it can't hold another item, cannot lose its Mega Stone, and takes decreased damage from Knock Off.
Right or wrong (tho I think terapagos would be teraing in the vast majority of cases), I'm not sure how a mon not always being optimal to tera is a relevant counterargument at all.

Anyway, I think it's a good thing complex bans are avoided. Not really about something being complicated or not, just opens a can of worms as to where you draw the line. Do you allow Kyogre without water moves for example?

The thing is, terapagos is clearly different from your classic complex ban case. And if mega ray isn't a complex ban, then I wouldn't call terapagos one either. It is obviously different from banning rage fist on ape or electro shot on arch, which would just be banning a move on a mon. These tiering policies were put in place before we knew future generations would have gimmicks and mechanics we couldn't even conceive of.

The genesect drives and ogerpon tera forms comparison is interesting. I do think you could reasonably argue they aren't different enough from each other or they would be overpowered regardless, but more pragmatically there's just no demand to unban them.

Also, we banned sleep after all this time despite sleep clause existing from gen 1. Let's not pretend we are going to ban base ray when megas return. Technically going against policy, grandfathered in or not - keeping base ray back then was clearly the right call, and I guarantee mega ray clause will continue to exist in the future because everyone still thinks it was the sensible decision.

Really the strongest argument to me is that mega ray is precedent and the reasons for mega ray supposedly being invalid precedent are simply unsound. They mostly boil down to "but it's ubers" or "mega ray clause was wrong in the first place." Ubers does try to keep as many mons as possible but it still has to conform with tiering policy especially with regard to complex bans, and as for mega ray clause everyone sure is happy to just keep a decision that was supposedly wrong lol.

(I suspect someone may come in and shut down the terapagos discussion eventually. Hot take but I've always hated that brand of moderator action. Nothing wrong with talking sets and stuff, but the current discussion is actually interesting and would ideally go somewhere especially in a metagame that is getting old. Anyway, hoping at least some people in the council or whatever are seriously discussing Terapagos, tho I unfortunately think they won't budge.)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top