Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

[Magcargo]

Giving Mega Raichu X a whirl and its def a mixed bag. Seeds do make better for sure, as it can support Sneasler quite aptly, and if played well, you can definitely deal some big damage to various grounds like Hippo with Grass Knot, but it feels like it has to play extremely annoying guessing games with Bulky Garchomp which it struggles with even more compared to Ychu. This is doubly annoying since atm its not really ideal to run it with Rillaboom or Mega Clefable, as the teams Xchu wants to be on are pure E-terrain teams. Not helping matters is that Sneasler is not Great into Garchomp either and while you can run hawlucha, I don't really like being forced to waste its electric seed early. I've been running it with Taunt DD Gyarados, which works fine enough and helps against the extremely annoying Stall teams that Xchu can struggle against, but its not ideal. I've been running Balloon Exca to asw assist in spinning vs bulky Chomp, but once its balloon is gone, spinning becomes noticably tougher.

I think another issue is that E-Terrain teams doen't actually have too many good abusers either outside of Sneasler. I suppose Blaziken with Thunder Punch can work, but that Pokemon struggles with the exact same pokemon that Mega Raichu and Sneasler struggle with, which is annoying. The one Pokemon I've found that's an interesting partner is Meowscarada, as E-Terrain gives its Thunder Punch enough power to reliably 2HKO Corviknight, while it can annoy Garchomp / Gliscor Axel and maybe take an eq in a pinch, though you basically trade all your health into Helmet Chomp.

32 Atk Expert Belt Protean Meowscarada Thunder Punch vs. 32 HP / 32+ Def Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 125-151 (60.9 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unfort, w/o Protective pads, I don't really like the match-ups into Garchomp, and Meow's speed is not enough to handle many megas such as Greninja, Delphox, and Absol, so u are forced to burn sneasler seed, which is annoying. I don't really like Scarf Meow (despite it being quite solid rn) and I don't think it would be particularly good at taking advantage of E-Terrain anyways.

In general, even in the low ladder, I find using this Pokemon to be a struggle & most games I'm just banking on Sneasler farming the HO / BO MUs to be enough once Hippo is out.

Has anyone else found a way to mitagate some of these weaknesses (annoying MU into chomp + hazards, bad MU into stall, Golisopod, finding good E-Terrain abusers)? Here's the team I've been running for reference: https://pokepast.es/a745a90aeb473f7c

 

[romatrufas094]

Has anyone else found a way to mitagate some of these weaknesses (annoying MU into chomp + hazards, bad MU into stall, Golisopod, finding good E-Terrain abusers)? Here's the team I've been running for reference: https://pokepast.es/a745a90aeb473f7c

Click to collapse...

:rotom-wash:
Bad Omen (Rotom-Wash) @ Life Orb / Magnet
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split / Volt Switch
- Nasty Plot

I was also looking into Raichu X the other day and came up with this cheese Washtom set when looking for Rising Voltage users. I figured putting a second useless Electric type was a bad call, but a Ground-immune user that can also just eat them with Hydro Pump seemed compelling

I don't have much experience at all, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but with this set and at +2, you can OHKO the most common defensive structures' mons

:garchomp:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 265-312 (123.2 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
↑(Can only touch you with DTail, will die trying because of the lower prio. PJab does like 33%, Draco does like 50%. Offensive Chomp can only switch into base Pump once)↑
:garchomp:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Garchomp: 185-218 (86 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
↑(Close enough)↑
:slowking-galar:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 199-235 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
:hippowdon:32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 32 HP / 27 SpD Hippowdon: 234-276 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:clefable:32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Clefable: 113-134 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
↑(I don't think this set exists but just in case, it's not safe)↑
:swampert:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Swampert: 177-211 (85.5 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
↑(Swampert counterattacks by tickling you)↑
:sableye-mega:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 192-227 (122.2 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:chesnaught:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 186-218 (95.3 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
:corviknight::toxapex::talonflame:+2 32+ SpA Life Orb Rotom-Wash Rising Voltage (70 or 140 BP) vs. Mon weak to Electric: Guess

You can even pretend it has defensive properties beyond the immunity even with this investment (it doesn't)

Various fat Dragons like :garchomp-mega-z:GarZomp, :goodra-hisui:Hoodra and :dragalge-mega:Mega Dragalge will screw you, though. Most of them you can wear down since they don't have reliable healing, but Dragalge is easily the bane of this set's existence. That and :rillaboom:Rillaboom, which I can only imagine is the bane of E-TERRAIN's existence.
It also dies to everything. Including itself because of the :life-orb:Life Orb. Pain Split might be enough to mitigate said recoil, but I guess you could use Magnet. You miss out on some KOs particularly on Hydro Pump, and you don't OHKO Glowking ever after it switches in on the Nasty Plot or whatever. Maybe with hazards...?
And, yeah. Washtom doesn't actually benefit from E-Terrain's Electric move boost, which is... extremely cringe. But even without it I think its other attributes might carry it. I wouldn't blame you for avoiding it just because of how unsatisfying that is, though. I mean, I've never actually used it. Are you crazy? E-Terrain is :raichu-mega-x:terrible

That's enough LARPing though. Does anyone have an up-to-date Ychu team they can share? I want to give it a shot now that it's being suspected :3 I'd make my own, but the previously described demon is still lurking somewhere in my Teambuilder tab, waiting to get me...

 

[Ultraman1]

Trying goofy XChu + Rain team today, and it did win some games, but it is absolutely get destroyed by strong Fighting, Fairy and Dark Spam in general so don’t take it too seriously. XChu did have some moments tho, having strong Knock Off + Rising Voltage to do some process (I guess ?), and the addition bulk to live actual priority move. Overall, mediocre as always.
:Raichu_Mega_X: :Archaludon: :Pelipper: :Sneasler: :Excadrill: :Samurott_Hisui:
https://pokepast.es/607abf7024fc1de2

3 games before losing all of the elos:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2685947116-04gh2o7kwqastl75ub02x3o88uepo71pw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2685951251-l53vqmamrdtyt5s3q745b4e9tjgi4s5pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2685936915-pfpa9yyo1molrl17hi4g80p95lpk4expw?p2

 

[stealthgod]

Hello everyone! My name is stealthgod. I’ve been playing competitive singles for a few years now but have never felt comfortable/confident posting anything to the forums cause of my horrific social anxiety (and cause I was still relatively ass at the game until like half a year ago lol)

After my beloved Mega Golisopod finally got a good ability in Tough Claws a few weeks ago, I decided I had to figure out a way to make it work, and I think I’ve cooked up a pretty decent team. I got to top 100 on the ladder with this team on two separate accounts (stealthgod and infernodrakon). Team description is in the pokepaste.

https://pokepast.es/ecaa9fc5d2a1460d

Overall though, definitely not a perfect team, but certainly a fun one. Main weaknesses off the top of my head are Corviknight, M-Staraptor, and Aegislash. Lemme know what yall think!

P.S. the pokepaste says by blisteringbigfoot cause thats my other account

 

[fluff!!]

:golisopod-mega: A defense in favor of Mega Golisopod :golisopod-mega:

I have seen an uproar of complaints about Mega Golisopod by passionate Champions OU players, even calling it broken and wanting a suspect test later down the line once Hamurott has received its own. Here, I will take a stance in favor of Mega Golisopod, and how it actually is one of the main benefactors of the tier by keeping at bay cheese tactics, and in term elevating the standard of teambuilding and play.

The longest standing complaint I have read on Champions OU is that the tier is too offense oriented, which made me wonder why Mega Golisopod, a textbook anti-offense Pokemon, received so much push to ban it. Yet, the tier needs strong anti-offense tools! I conclude many players complain about offense being too strong... while using it themselves and losing to a prime anti-offense mon in the process.

But let's dive in: How does Mega Golisopod beat "cheese"?
First what's cheese: it covers a vast array of stuff, but the main culprits generally are:
- Webs (+Glimmora)
- Weather
- Terrain HO
- Trick Room
- More broadly, stuff such as Espathra is a prime example, but even tamer examples such as Sneasler Terrain, Volcarona, Ceruledge, Blaziken all can count towards cheese as they are very difficult to counter, often with very few true counters and can easily get out of hand in often a single turn of setup

What usually does NOT count towards cheese?
- slow Bulk Up and Calm Mind users with common checks and counters even when said checks and counters are somewhat worn down (Scrafty, Mega Golisopod, Annihilape, Alcremie, Clefable)
- Weaker snowball mons (Quaquaval, Mega Staraptor)

If we take a look at our list:​

• Mega Golisopod does not care about Webs's Speed drop, is immune to Glimmora's Toxic Spikes, and is excellent at trading against Offense.​
• Rain is an interesting one: instead of being a counter to Rain, it often finds itself part of it. But that is actually a GOOD thing: As stated previously, Mega Golisopod already has a long list of checks and counters, so Rain teams running Golisopod open themselves to being checked by common presences in the metagame, unlike something like Mega Swampert that has much more specific counterplay that tends to not match up well into the rest of the metagame (Sinistcha, Mega Venusaur, Slowbro).​
• Sun is one that Mega Golisopod does not match up well into.​
• Opposing Grassy Terrain actually helps Mega Golisopod as it has very limited ways to recover health otherwise (Leech Life, Rest?). It also counters Rillaboom and can trade 1v1 against Sneasler very effectively.​
• Psychic Terrain is very rare and its own metagame is unclear. Though Mega Golisopod will have trouble against Armarouge, it also is an excellent lead as Psychic Terrain often has trouble switching into it.​
• Trick Room does not really exist, though mons such as Golisopod historically do well against the archetype. (citation needed)​
• Espathra is kind of a cheese superstar, and happens to lose very hard to Mega Golisopod. Before then, Kingambit and Mega Scizor were the only real true counters to Espathra, but now we got a third one.​
• Volcarona, Blaziken, and Ceruledge all need to be careful about Aqua Jet, especially if Mega Golisopod previously found an opening to set up a Swords Dance.​

High/Top tier Pokemon able to effectively combat cheese are a must-have to ensure that there are great and reliable answers preventing matchup fishes from being a consistent pick. The issue with cheese tactics is that they often know that some matchups are near helpless: but they count on luck to have good matchups and win with less skill and involvement needed. They have very straightforward teambuilding patterns and lines of play, and often have specific answers that match up unfavorably against the rest of the meta, especially other forms of cheese. As such, Pokemon such as Mega Golisopod, apt at beating many different forms of cheese, while having playable matchups into the rest of the tier, and yet having clearly identifiable, splashable, and viable checks and counters (Helmet Corv, Helmet Chomp, Toxapex, Dragapult, Primarina, Aegislash, Rotom-Wash, Mega Staraptor, Mega Meganium...), are the key components to having a healthy metagame where matchup fishing is kept at a minimum.

As such, I believe that Mega Golisopod is actually a great asset towards having a healthy metagame that punishes bad teambuilding and matchup fishing by severely reducing the consistency of cheese tactics which otherwise lower the skill level of the tier.

But hold on, doesn't that mean that Mega Golisopod... could be too strong against offense, therefore it could warrant a ban???
Well, I strongly believe that Offense has many tools available to them to fight it. In terms of defensive mons, TankChomp is a top tier pick even without considering Mega Golisopod. Running mons such as Bulk Up Corviknight isn't inconceivable, making U-turn not an auto-include on every Corviknight set, which the tier needs quite a bit. More support-oriented Dragapult sets using Will-O-Wisp to threaten basically an OHKO on Mega Golisopod should be looked at, especially considering that Dragapult is an absolutely fantastic Pokemon right now that does not see as much use as it deserves. Offense might need to consider replacing frail Water- and Dark- weak breakers such as Blaziken, Ceruledge, and Will-O-less Dragapult (think 4 attacks LO) for slower, bulkier breakers such as Mega Mawile and Aegislash, making the most out of Mega Golisopod's frankly terrible Speed stat and weaker priorities. Pokemon resilient to Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch such as Quaquaval, Hydreigon, and Mega Meganium are strong contenders for Golisopod counterplay.

Offense only needs to adapt with different picks, of which all of them are considered highly viable today.


:toxapex: Play Toxapex :toxapex:

Kind of related to the Goli stuff, I believe Toxapex deserves more play in the current metagame. It is one of the, if not the sturdiest counter to some of the most complained about Pokemon currently, including Mega Golisopod, Mega Floette, Sneasler, Ceruledge, and Blaziken, on top of other threats such as Cinderace and Volcarona lacking Psychic. Bulkier teams have all the tools to be efficient and viable, it only takes the community to let go of offense slop to try bulkier stuff...​

 

[biggruse04]

:golisopod-mega: A defense in favor of Mega Golisopod :golisopod-mega:

I have seen an uproar of complaints about Mega Golisopod by passionate Champions OU players, even calling it broken and wanting a suspect test later down the line once Hamurott has received its own. Here, I will take a stance in favor of Mega Golisopod, and how it actually is one of the main benefactors of the tier by keeping at bay cheese tactics, and in term elevating the standard of teambuilding and play.

The longest standing complaint I have read on Champions OU is that the tier is too offense oriented, which made me wonder why Mega Golisopod, a textbook anti-offense Pokemon, received so much push to ban it. Yet, the tier needs strong anti-offense tools! I conclude many players complain about offense being too strong... while using it themselves and losing to a prime anti-offense mon in the process.

But let's dive in: How does Mega Golisopod beat "cheese"?
First what's cheese: it covers a vast array of stuff, but the main culprits generally are:
- Webs (+Glimmora)
- Weather
- Terrain HO
- Trick Room
- More broadly, stuff such as Espathra is a prime example, but even tamer examples such as Sneasler Terrain, Volcarona, Ceruledge, Blaziken all can count towards cheese as they are very difficult to counter, often with very few true counters and can easily get out of hand in often a single turn of setup

What usually does NOT count towards cheese?
- slow Bulk Up and Calm Mind users with common checks and counters even when said checks and counters are somewhat worn down (Scrafty, Mega Golisopod, Annihilape, Alcremie, Clefable)
- Weaker snowball mons (Quaquaval, Mega Staraptor)

If we take a look at our list:​

• Mega Golisopod does not care about Webs's Speed drop, is immune to Glimmora's Toxic Spikes, and is excellent at trading against Offense.​
• Rain is an interesting one: instead of being a counter to Rain, it often finds itself part of it. But that is actually a GOOD thing: As stated previously, Mega Golisopod already has a long list of checks and counters, so Rain teams running Golisopod open themselves to being checked by common presences in the metagame, unlike something like Mega Swampert that has much more specific counterplay that tends to not match up well into the rest of the metagame (Sinistcha, Mega Venusaur, Slowbro).​
• Sun is one that Mega Golisopod does not match up well into.​
• Opposing Grassy Terrain actually helps Mega Golisopod as it has very limited ways to recover health otherwise (Leech Life, Rest?). It also counters Rillaboom and can trade 1v1 against Sneasler very effectively.​
• Psychic Terrain is very rare and its own metagame is unclear. Though Mega Golisopod will have trouble against Armarouge, it also is an excellent lead as Psychic Terrain often has trouble switching into it.​
• Trick Room does not really exist, though mons such as Golisopod historically do well against the archetype. (citation needed)​
• Espathra is kind of a cheese superstar, and happens to lose very hard to Mega Golisopod. Before then, Kingambit and Mega Scizor were the only real true counters to Espathra, but now we got a third one.​
• Volcarona, Blaziken, and Ceruledge all need to be careful about Aqua Jet, especially if Mega Golisopod previously found an opening to set up a Swords Dance.​

High/Top tier Pokemon able to effectively combat cheese are a must-have to ensure that there are great and reliable answers preventing matchup fishes from being a consistent pick. The issue with cheese tactics is that they often know that some matchups are near helpless: but they count on luck to have good matchups and win with less skill and involvement needed. They have very straightforward teambuilding patterns and lines of play, and often have specific answers that match up unfavorably against the rest of the meta, especially other forms of cheese. As such, Pokemon such as Mega Golisopod, apt at beating many different forms of cheese, while having playable matchups into the rest of the tier, and yet having clearly identifiable, splashable, and viable checks and counters (Helmet Corv, Helmet Chomp, Toxapex, Dragapult, Primarina, Aegislash, Rotom-Wash, Mega Staraptor, Mega Meganium...), are the key components to having a healthy metagame where matchup fishing is kept at a minimum.

As such, I believe that Mega Golisopod is actually a great asset towards having a healthy metagame that punishes bad teambuilding and matchup fishing by severely reducing the consistency of cheese tactics which otherwise lower the skill level of the tier.

But hold on, doesn't that mean that Mega Golisopod... could be too strong against offense, therefore it could warrant a ban???
Well, I strongly believe that Offense has many tools available to them to fight it. In terms of defensive mons, TankChomp is a top tier pick even without considering Mega Golisopod. Running mons such as Bulk Up Corviknight isn't inconceivable, making U-turn not an auto-include on every Corviknight set, which the tier needs quite a bit. More support-oriented Dragapult sets using Will-O-Wisp to threaten basically an OHKO on Mega Golisopod should be looked at, especially considering that Dragapult is an absolutely fantastic Pokemon right now that does not see as much use as it deserves. Offense might need to consider replacing frail Water- and Dark- weak breakers such as Blaziken, Ceruledge, and Will-O-less Dragapult (think 4 attacks LO) for slower, bulkier breakers such as Mega Mawile and Aegislash, making the most out of Mega Golisopod's frankly terrible Speed stat and weaker priorities. Pokemon resilient to Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch such as Quaquaval, Hydreigon, and Mega Meganium are strong contenders for Golisopod counterplay.

Offense only needs to adapt with different picks, of which all of them are considered highly viable today.


:toxapex: Play Toxapex :toxapex:

Kind of unrelated to the previous point, I believe Toxapex deserves more play in the current metagame. It is one of the, if not the sturdiest counter to some of the most complained about Pokemon currently, including Mega Golisopod, Mega Floette, Sneasler, Ceruledge, and Blaziken, on top of other threats such as Cinderace and Volcarona lacking Psychic. Bulkier teams have all the tools to be efficient and viable, it only takes the community to let go of offense slop to try bulkier stuff...​

Click to collapse...

i have one thing to add no one uses pex because it's to passive in the meta and many top pokemon have ways to get around it or one hit it and with it not having scald to punish pokemon like mega goil being the biggest example

 

[swordisbored]

:golisopod-mega: A defense in favor of Mega Golisopod :golisopod-mega:

I have seen an uproar of complaints about Mega Golisopod by passionate Champions OU players, even calling it broken and wanting a suspect test later down the line once Hamurott has received its own. Here, I will take a stance in favor of Mega Golisopod, and how it actually is one of the main benefactors of the tier by keeping at bay cheese tactics, and in term elevating the standard of teambuilding and play.

The longest standing complaint I have read on Champions OU is that the tier is too offense oriented, which made me wonder why Mega Golisopod, a textbook anti-offense Pokemon, received so much push to ban it. Yet, the tier needs strong anti-offense tools! I conclude many players complain about offense being too strong... while using it themselves and losing to a prime anti-offense mon in the process.

But let's dive in: How does Mega Golisopod beat "cheese"?
First what's cheese: it covers a vast array of stuff, but the main culprits generally are:
- Webs (+Glimmora)
- Weather
- Terrain HO
- Trick Room
- More broadly, stuff such as Espathra is a prime example, but even tamer examples such as Sneasler Terrain, Volcarona, Ceruledge, Blaziken all can count towards cheese as they are very difficult to counter, often with very few true counters and can easily get out of hand in often a single turn of setup

What usually does NOT count towards cheese?
- slow Bulk Up and Calm Mind users with common checks and counters even when said checks and counters are somewhat worn down (Scrafty, Mega Golisopod, Annihilape, Alcremie, Clefable)
- Weaker snowball mons (Quaquaval, Mega Staraptor)

If we take a look at our list:​

• Mega Golisopod does not care about Webs's Speed drop, is immune to Glimmora's Toxic Spikes, and is excellent at trading against Offense.​
• Rain is an interesting one: instead of being a counter to Rain, it often finds itself part of it. But that is actually a GOOD thing: As stated previously, Mega Golisopod already has a long list of checks and counters, so Rain teams running Golisopod open themselves to being checked by common presences in the metagame, unlike something like Mega Swampert that has much more specific counterplay that tends to not match up well into the rest of the metagame (Sinistcha, Mega Venusaur, Slowbro).​
• Sun is one that Mega Golisopod does not match up well into.​
• Opposing Grassy Terrain actually helps Mega Golisopod as it has very limited ways to recover health otherwise (Leech Life, Rest?). It also counters Rillaboom and can trade 1v1 against Sneasler very effectively.​
• Psychic Terrain is very rare and its own metagame is unclear. Though Mega Golisopod will have trouble against Armarouge, it also is an excellent lead as Psychic Terrain often has trouble switching into it.​
• Trick Room does not really exist, though mons such as Golisopod historically do well against the archetype. (citation needed)​
• Espathra is kind of a cheese superstar, and happens to lose very hard to Mega Golisopod. Before then, Kingambit and Mega Scizor were the only real true counters to Espathra, but now we got a third one.​
• Volcarona, Blaziken, and Ceruledge all need to be careful about Aqua Jet, especially if Mega Golisopod previously found an opening to set up a Swords Dance.​

High/Top tier Pokemon able to effectively combat cheese are a must-have to ensure that there are great and reliable answers preventing matchup fishes from being a consistent pick. The issue with cheese tactics is that they often know that some matchups are near helpless: but they count on luck to have good matchups and win with less skill and involvement needed. They have very straightforward teambuilding patterns and lines of play, and often have specific answers that match up unfavorably against the rest of the meta, especially other forms of cheese. As such, Pokemon such as Mega Golisopod, apt at beating many different forms of cheese, while having playable matchups into the rest of the tier, and yet having clearly identifiable, splashable, and viable checks and counters (Helmet Corv, Helmet Chomp, Toxapex, Dragapult, Primarina, Aegislash, Rotom-Wash, Mega Staraptor, Mega Meganium...), are the key components to having a healthy metagame where matchup fishing is kept at a minimum.

As such, I believe that Mega Golisopod is actually a great asset towards having a healthy metagame that punishes bad teambuilding and matchup fishing by severely reducing the consistency of cheese tactics which otherwise lower the skill level of the tier.

But hold on, doesn't that mean that Mega Golisopod... could be too strong against offense, therefore it could warrant a ban???
Well, I strongly believe that Offense has many tools available to them to fight it. In terms of defensive mons, TankChomp is a top tier pick even without considering Mega Golisopod. Running mons such as Bulk Up Corviknight isn't inconceivable, making U-turn not an auto-include on every Corviknight set, which the tier needs quite a bit. More support-oriented Dragapult sets using Will-O-Wisp to threaten basically an OHKO on Mega Golisopod should be looked at, especially considering that Dragapult is an absolutely fantastic Pokemon right now that does not see as much use as it deserves. Offense might need to consider replacing frail Water- and Dark- weak breakers such as Blaziken, Ceruledge, and Will-O-less Dragapult (think 4 attacks LO) for slower, bulkier breakers such as Mega Mawile and Aegislash, making the most out of Mega Golisopod's frankly terrible Speed stat and weaker priorities. Pokemon resilient to Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch such as Quaquaval, Hydreigon, and Mega Meganium are strong contenders for Golisopod counterplay.

Offense only needs to adapt with different picks, of which all of them are considered highly viable today.


:toxapex: Play Toxapex :toxapex:

Kind of related to the Goli stuff, I believe Toxapex deserves more play in the current metagame. It is one of the, if not the sturdiest counter to some of the most complained about Pokemon currently, including Mega Golisopod, Mega Floette, Sneasler, Ceruledge, and Blaziken, on top of other threats such as Cinderace and Volcarona lacking Psychic. Bulkier teams have all the tools to be efficient and viable, it only takes the community to let go of offense slop to try bulkier stuff...​

Click to collapse...

:golisopod-mega: An evil attack in opposition to Mega Golisopod :golisopod-mega:

As a response to Fluff:

Whilst it is true that Champions OU is currently too offense orientated I think that instead of combating this fact that Mega Golisopod actually contributes to it, we are quite literally talking about a Pokemon that primarily fits on offensive teams itself but one that is also good into balance builds and stall with only a few more niche Pokemon on these styles being able to answer it. Also, if most teams are offensive ones due to the surrounding metagame then I feel as if that only proves all the more that a Pokemon with such a great matchup into it is problematic.

It is also important to note that Mega Golisopod is a Mega and you are only allowed one of these, if it fulfils this role so well and answers the surrounding metagame then that just leads there to be little reason not to use anything else. This whole post just elaborates on how much stuff it beats whilst trying to argue that it makes it "balanced", you could make a lot of these arguments for currently banned Pokemon too. Forcing people to run stuff like Skeledirge doesn't "incentivise creative teambuilding", in fact it feels no different from having to say run Seismitoad due to Dracovish. You seem to have this mentality that people aren't exploring options and aren't building to their best ability when this is just simply untrue, Pokemon can be good but also not seen on every team.

General thoughts on why I think Mega Golisopod should be banned:

With absurd damage, bulk and an amazing typing it would be an understatement that Mega Golisopod is hard to chip down and this is the crux of why it is so problematic. Give it one free turn and suddenly it is using Swords Dance and then using Leech Life to return back to full HP whilst OHKOing just about any Fire-type with a +2 Aqua Jet. Comparatively to other Pokemon that you can chip down and maybe have to sacrifice a teammate to answer if you aren't prepared, if you give Mega Golisopod a single opportunity it can win the game off of that immediately. The most common and consistent answer by far is a fully physically defensive Garchomp with Flamethrower (keep in mind this is a move not really used much prior to Mega Golisopod) and besides that your options are limited to Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp and then much more niche options which struggle into the overarching metagame and yet should be used according to some people due to their ability to beat purely Mega Golisopod. I'd also like to mention here as to why Mega Golisopod doesn't care about Pokemon that can burn it and it all comes down to just being able to Swords Dance and then Leech Life back to full, usually claiming a KO on said Pokemon, and dismantling the rest of the team from there. Personally, I've used rain to overcome its fire weakness which makes it particularly absurd— now not being able to be threatened by Garchomp in the slightest and this was quite literally put into action in my CHAMPL Week 7 game and as for burning it Healing Wish is also a good option. Overall, Mega Golisopod's few weaknesses can be overcome rather easily and this isn't even mentioning how it beats Corviknight if it doesn't have Iron Defense and Toxapex in a 1v1.

Currently the Pokemon on my radar in order are:

Hisuian Samurott
Mega Golisopod
Sneasler
Mega Floette

 

[fluff!!]

:golisopod-mega: A defense to the attack to the defense of Mega Golisopod :golisopod-mega:
​

It is also important to note that Mega Golisopod is a Mega and you are only allowed one of these, if it fulfils this role so well and answers the surrounding metagame then that just leads there to be little reason not to use anything else. This whole post just elaborates on how much stuff it beats whilst trying to argue that it makes it "balanced", you could make a lot of these arguments for currently banned Pokemon too. Forcing people to run stuff like Skeledirge doesn't "incentivise creative teambuilding", in fact it feels no different from having to say run Seismitoad due to Dracovish. You seem to have this mentality that people aren't exploring options and aren't building to their best ability when this is just simply untrue, Pokemon can be good but also not seen on every team.​

Click to collapse...

My answer is the list of Pokemon that check or counter Mega Golisopod.
Counters: Helmet Corviknight, Helmet Garchomp, Toxapex, Skeledirge
Checks: Dragapult, Primarina, Aegislash, Rotom-Wash, Mega Staraptor, Mega Meganium, Mega Mawile (Fire Fang), Dragonite (Fire Punch), offensive Garchomp variants, Quaquaval

Do take note that none of the counters listed here are Megas. You do not need to use your own Mega slot to beat Mega Golisopod. I will also say it hardly "forces" people to run Skeledirge. It is a good pick in semi-stall and stall teams at base value, and it has other counters past it. The Seismitoad/Dracovish comparison is not pertinent: Dracovish actually had 2 answers only. Mega Golisopod has way more.
The checks and counters listed happen to be already prevalent mons in the meta. Corviknight is #1 in usage at 47%, Garchomp is 2nd at 45%. And that was last month's usages, where Mega Golisopod was not yet in the tier. Toxapex is still OU ranked, and so are all checks mentioned, which still see plenty of play today. you don't need to go so out of your way to beat Golisopod that you are forced into one or two options. It is no different than having to prepare for any other run of the mill breaker such as Garchomp, Ceruledge, or Mega Meganium.

There are also real reasons to play something that is not Mega Golisopod. Since you aren't tied to your Mega slot to beat it, you can use other powerful Megas such as Mega Delphox and Mega Absol Z with much more limited pools of checks and counters, or use a strong Mega that happens to match nicely into Mega Golisopod, such as Mega Meganium. I also know you often complain about Mega Floette, yet Mega Golisopod has an advantageous matchup into it... Has Mega Floette no reason to be used over it?
​

With absurd damage, bulk and an amazing typing it would be an understatement that Mega Golisopod is hard to chip down and this is the crux of why it is so problematic. Give it one free turn and suddenly it is using Swords Dance and then using Leech Life to return back to full HP whilst OHKOing just about any Fire-type with a +2 Aqua Jet. Comparatively to other Pokemon that you can chip down and maybe have to sacrifice a teammate to answer if you aren't prepared, if you give Mega Golisopod a single opportunity it can win the game off of that immediately.​

Click to collapse...

Mega Golisopod does not have a lot of opportunities to "heal back to full with Leech Life". Defensive teams may rely on the counters I listed prior which all do an amazing job at preventing just that, while checks either threaten a KO immediately, burn it, or resist Leech Life.
​

your options are limited to Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp and then much more niche options which struggle into the overarching metagame and yet should be used according to some people due to their ability to beat purely Mega Golisopod.​

Click to collapse...

It goes back to the first paragraph I wrote here: The checks and counters to Mega Golisopod are plenty and all very viable Pokemon you should consider using regardless of Mega Golisopod's presence
​

Personally, I've used rain to overcome its fire weakness which makes it particularly absurd​

Click to collapse...

With the exception of Garchomp as you mentioned, only a minority of Mega Golisopod's answers use Fire attacks to beat it, instead relying to stalling (Helmet Corv, Toxapex) or other various means (Will-O-Wisp, neutral Water/Ghost type attacks, or in Mega Meganium's case, Mega Sol Weather Ball). Rain is not a particularly popular archetype, so it helping against a few Mega Golisopod answers sounds like a reasonable trade-off.
​

as for burning it Healing Wish is also a good option​

Click to collapse...

I've never tried pairing Mega Golisopod with a Healing Wish user nor have I played against that, so I cannot say much about it.​

 

[OatIsHere]

Personally I think Mega Golisopod is a bit too much for Champions OU, the Pokemon that can status it with burn being Rotom-Wash and Dragapult are quite exploitable. Rotom-Wash being stopped in its tracks by Pokemon such as Galarian Slowking, while Dragapult can have trouble handling the likes of Clefable. Its Fire weakness can be easily made up for by Rain and it has Aqua Jet which can straight up OHKO the majority of Fire types. Flamethrower Tank Garchomp is not a ironclad answer either as Mega Golisopod can heal much of the damage off with Leech Life and can revenge with a Sucker Punch/Aqua Jet. The whole principle is that Mega Golisopod has very niche answers towards it with many such answers being very exploitable and shaky. Every other physical wall baring niche Pokemon like Skeledirge is crumbled by Mega Golisopod from Hippowdon to Iron Defense Corviknight etc, that alongside the countless other physical threats makes Mega Golisopod unbelievably hard to handle.

 

[stealthgod]

As someone who just posted a M-Golisopod team, I’d like to give some of my thoughts as to the strength of the Pod, most of which have probably already been said more eloquently by other people.

• To my knowledge, every relevant fire type (with the exception of Skeledirge) isn’t what I would call a true answer to the Pod, since +2 aqua jet ohkos all of them, and the prevalence of hazard spam makes focus sash on those mons less than optimal.
• Whether it’s in its mega or base form, the Pod really doesn’t like hazards itself. Additionally, as a more general note, wearing the pod down (through hazards, rocky helmet/rough skin, burns, strong neutral special attacks, etc.) seems to me to be the best way to counter it rn, and players at the top level seem to be able to pull this off fairly well.
• Mons that can tech fire type moves are actually much better than any actual fire types when it comes to countering the Pod since many of them can tank the Pod’s priority moves even after +2.
• The strongest sets on the Pod imo are either SD or Bulk Up. SD often puts on more immediate pressure, and Bulk Up sets can not only make chipping the Pod down even harder but also win the Pod vs Pod mirror matchup.

Overall, I don’t feel qualified to definitively state whether or not I think the Pod should be banned (at least from a metagame perspective), and I’m too biased toward this mon to give an objective opinion anyway.

 

[Magcargo]

Mega Golisopod is frankly an MU fish which is more often than not going to struggle against the omnipresent Corviknight + passive chip damage you'll be finding in the metagame between hazards that are difficult to remove (with ideal partners that don't leave you weak to broken Fire-types). Random helmet mons like Dragonite on offense (I had to use a flamethrower Helmet set which I am guessing no one else will use, but is good vs Golisopod & makes more progress against Corviknight than Dragonite's other sets at least + checked blaziken) and Helmet Garchomp (which you are going basically be trading all you health into which for a mega isn't great) as well as many random other Pokemon like Mega Meganium (mogged by Weather Ball + resist Sucker / Aqua Jet), Dirge, Pex, Mega Scovillan, Clefable with a little bit of speed investment + Fire Move, and many other annoying Pokemon. In practice, like Mega Metagross, I find this mon to be a lousy floette check because you get mogged by hazards and the opponent's Corviknight will just be stone walling you unless you run junk sets like Taunt or pray they are running that U-Turn + Brave Bird set that loses to Gambit - and in that case, why not run Gambit instead which will be setting up all over that set anyways + not take up Mega Slot while largely providing the same type of utility?

IDK, I feel this mon is quite similar to Mega Meta where as a teamslot, it is a bit difficult to fit because it isn't covering enough roles either & its weaknesses overlap too much with cheap ass Corv + Gking. I'm 90% sure most of the megas or Pokemon we'll be taking tiering action against will just be Pokemon that pair the best with those two or break it, so mons like Mega Delphox, Mega Lopp, Samu, Zard X, Mega Absol Z, Mega Frosslass even, etc etc.

 

[Moyashi]

I can understand being wary about M-Golisopod, since if you lack a strong way to damage it quickly, its boosting can result in a pokemon that becomes increasingly difficult to remove due to its type and high natural bulk even when minimally invested. It can be somewhat awkward if it doesn't mega evolve early and rocks go up, forcing it to start with less health than desired, and the fact prepping for it can amount to minor speed creeping with investments, and tacking on fire coverage onto something that can get use out of it (Garchomp, Clefable, Glowking). I think it's definitely worth keeping an eye on, because it's so well rounded that it could potentially really become a problem down the road as the meta develops.

On the subject of that specifically,

:Golisopod-Mega:
Golisopod-Mega
Ability: Tough Claws
Level: 50
EVs: 6 HP / 32 Atk / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leech Life
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat
- Bulk Up

One thing I've noticed is how much people want to go all aggressive out the gate with M-Gol via SD, and it's absolutely a set to respect, but I find that with teams preparing for this mon makes it somewhat challenging to get more immediate gains out the gate when it faces a healthy team. And in the mid-game, if it ends up worn down via hazards it can be picked off by certain strong physical hits even if it snags a KO. I think BU can potentially solve the issue of it being more prone to revenge KOs, and makes it more of a threat late game that can't as easily get sniped from low health. Even at only +1, Aqua Jet still picks off the frail fire type offensive checks, and it has enough oomph to snag KOs against weakened frail threats like Raichu Y or Mega Lopunny (who will also struggle to damage it at that point). Heck, I'm sure you can even run TWave support to slow down Corv so it could be taunted (this does get taunt). Though I dunno if that's all that consistently practical.

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone messed around with :Starmie: at all after :Starmie-Mega:'s ban months ago? With the limited pool of pokemon we have still, and only one real splashable Spin user, I wonder if this mon is worth examining. The speed and acceptable power into offense thanks to its coverage gives me the impression it should at least have SOME use. Maybe if we ever get rid of Hamurott it could be better, since Starmie invites that in like little else... but I dunno. Feels like there's some possible use cases for it.

 

[shnowshner]

I haven't used Starmie but I was trying to build with it, and I believe Chesnaught makes a great partner. Especially with Rocky Helmet now in the game, Chesnaught is a great switch-in to common threats like Hamu, Rilla, Meow, and with Bulletproof lets you comfortably handle any Raichu-Y lacking Alluring Voice, for whatever time left the rat has in the tier. In turn, Starmie helps pressure opposing Psychics and can sponge status with Natural Cure, and Spin synergies with Chesnaught's ability to stack Spikes. The exact moveset and stat investment isn't something I worked out yet, but this is potentially a start:

Starmie @ Air Balloon
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 6 HP / 32 SpA / 28 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Flip Turn
- Rapid Spin

Air Balloon makes it much easier to come in on something like Drill or Hippo along with being a temporary Spikes and Sticky Web immunity, which makes your job of using Spin easier. Should the Champions devs ever decide Boots are back in, this mon gets a whole lot better. 28 Speed and Timid allows you to outspeed the Base 110s, importantly Mega Raptor and Megagross, which you can either Flip Turn on or threaten with Scald (or remove Hazards if you must). 32 SpA was mostly filler until I worked out defensive benchmarks which I cannot be assed to do right now.

 

[Magcargo]

When I gave Starmie a try in an earlier meta, it was ok, but it felt like it had a bit too much 4MSS and its weaknesses are a bit lethal given they overlap with Corv and Gking. It didn't help that its MU into Gking and Gambit notably were awkward.

I believe this new metagame did breath some new life into it with some new potential builds. Expanding Force on Psy Terrain seems like it has some potential to deal lethal damage to Gking while still having Ice Beam & Thunderbolt for Rillaboom / Samurott. I also think the gen 5 Air Balloon set could be an ok spinner on some offensive teams given it can switch directly into Garchomp, though this likely is just outclassed by Hatterene and Excadrill. Unfortunately I don't think Starmie has the bulk or stats to run the defensive spin set like it could in the past.

 

[fluff!!]

Here's some mons that are heavily underexplored as of now and deserve more experimentation.

Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Level: 50
EVs: 20 HP / 32 Atk / 14 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Taunt

More of a technicality than anything, Hawlucha sees no play only due to Sneasler's existence. It does however have stuff going for it that Sneasler cannot quite replicate. First off, Acrobatics is a better STAB to spam than either the weak Dire Claw or the innacurate Gunk Shot. While Sneasler also has access to Acrobatics, Hawlucha's much stronger due to STAB. It does have a significantly worse Unaware Clefable matchup however, but in return gains access to a free 4th slot. Taunt completely shuts down Iron Defense, Haze, and Whirlwind. Encore forces devastating 50/50s. Substitute completely shuts down TankChomp with a tankier EV spread to ensure Dragon Tail does not break sub after Grassy Seed (27 HP / 32 Atk / 7 Spe).

Froslass-Mega (F) @ Froslassite
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot

Spamming Ice moves is super strong in the current format, and who else but the fastest Ice-type with 100% accurate Blizzards to do it. It curbstomps Garchomp, Glowking, and Corviknight with ease. With the introduction of Rocky Helmet, we have a reliable way to punish Hamurott for attempting to scare it away, along other physical Darks like Kingambit. If there is ever a time to try and make Mega Froslass work, it's now.

:bw/weavile:
Weavile @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 Atk / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off

Speaking of clicking Ice type moves, Weavile also brings a secondary Dark STAB accompanied by Knock Off to get rid of opposing Rocky Helmets. Though it must be careful early game when the threat of Rocky Helmet is up, it can somewhat consistently break through anything, including Corviknight.

Tinkaton (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Pickpocket
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 5 SpD / 29 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Encore

The Air Balloon + Pickpocket combo is back, but Tinkaton usage is not. Stealing opposing items is always nice, being able to consistently steal items from common mons such as Hamurott, Garchomp, Rillaboom, Meowscarada... You have Gigaton Hammer to threaten Hatterene as well. It's very much an offense only pick, but it has pretty much all it needs to at least find a niche, just like in SV OU.

Gallade-Mega (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 Atk / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Psycho Cut
- Shadow Sneak

Perhaps the most underrated Mega. It has two STABs that threaten Corviknight+Glowking.
+2 32 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 32 HP / 32+ Def Corviknight: 171-202 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 32 Atk Gallade-Mega Psycho Cut vs. 32 HP / 2 Def Slowking-Galar: 169-199 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Anything else has trouble getting rid of it in one hit before getting KOed themselves, and Shadow Sneak protects from various stuff such as Mega Delphox, Ceruledge's Shadow Sneak, Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, Dragapult...

:bw/tyranitar:
Tyranitar @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 22 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower

This one I am less confident about. It does do enough stuff to where I could see this pick being justified: Being one of the only actual safe Mega Delphox switch-ins is already a good trait to have. Air Balloon allows you to be safe clicking Ice Beam on Grounds, especially Garchomp. Flamethrower prevents Mega Golisopod from horsing around as long as it's weakened enough to where Flamethrower is a KO. Else, run Fire Blast if you want to KO it a bit earlier, though the difference in damage is actually quite small. Knock Off is much more valuable now that Rocky Helmet has become a central part of the format. What I am not sure of is the EV spread and nature. Tyranitar needs ALL its stats to be able to do something, so any stat drop is very noticeable and hurts Tyranitar in some way. This pick is as niche as Tyranitar has ever been.

Sirfetch’d @ Leek
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 50
EVs: 16 HP / 32 Atk / 18 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance

Say the line: Threatens both Corviknight and Glowking! Thanks to Scrappy, it can also click Close Combat risk free. Knock Off good, and you even have Poison Jab for Primarina and Clefable. Leek is kind of funny and can help you claim random KOs out of nowhere as well. This is better Grapploct.

:bw/hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 2 HP / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

First OU mon of the list. This is just to tell you to play Hydreigon more. It checks everything and Dark Pulse is a free click. Just plop it in your 3rd or 4th slot when you aren't sure what to run and watch as you suddenly are able to beat anything.​

 

[astroshagger]

Are there any recommended/go-to sets for Mega-Salamence in Champions?

I looked at the usage stats but there's no actual strategy dex entry for M-Mence

 

[OatIsHere]

Are there any recommended/go-to sets for Mega-Salamence in Champions?

I looked at the usage stats but there's no actual strategy dex entry for M-Mence

Click to collapse...

Mega Salamence is banned from Champions OU sorry. You would have to challange a friend using a challenge code or wait till Champions Ubers comes out

 

[Ultraman1]

Are there any recommended/go-to sets for Mega-Salamence in Champions?

I looked at the usage stats but there's no actual strategy dex entry for M-Mence

Click to collapse...

This is the forum for Champion OU so Mega Salamence is in the banlist rn. But if you are interested in using them, i recommend the usage data in Champion Ingame Usage Stats (BSS metagame).

 

[astroshagger]

Mega Salamence is banned from Champions OU sorry. You would have to challange a friend using a challenge code or wait till Champions Ubers comes out

Click to collapse...

I'm playing on the switch - I've no real interest in what Smogon says is allowed/disallowed, but rather what some considerations might be for Jolly v Adamant and important speed tiers for it. I've been away from the game for a while so I don't have a thorough understanding of what the meta is like right now - just very happy to finally be able to play with my favorite Mega online!

 

[romatrufas094]

I'm playing on the switch - I've no real interest in what Smogon says is allowed/disallowed, but rather what some considerations might be for Jolly v Adamant and important speed tiers for it. I've been away from the game for a while so I don't have a thorough understanding of what the meta is like right now - just very happy to finally be able to play with my favorite Mega online!

Click to collapse...

VGC Reg M-C Metagame Discussion Thread​

 

[Éric]

I'm playing on the switch - I've no real interest in what Smogon says is allowed/disallowed, but rather what some considerations might be for Jolly v Adamant and important speed tiers for it.

Click to collapse...

that is totally understandable but sadly you chose the wrong post to ask that question, as this is a thread about a metagame which doesnt allow mega salamence. you should try asking in the thread linked above if you are playing doubles on the switch, and here if you are playing singles: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokemon-champions-bss-viability-rankings.3780943/

 

[Gigabowser20]

I finally made it into the top 200 (which I know isn't the craziest thing in the world, but I'm happy with it) with my tried and true psy terrain polteageist team that I've used since gen 8 before "psyspam" was a thing (including top 200 in uu, which I reached the day before polteageist got banned there so I absolutely take credit for it's ban lol) now aided by mega barbaracle.ill never understand the hate this team/mechanic gets, it's no more spammy than most the meta and has a LOT of counters to work around, but I digress. Samurott and especially rillaboom being everywhere is painful but still I'm glad I had success. To bad I early aggressive rank decay system and then a couple losses with massive elo loss a piece plummeted me back to 1400 elo, but so it goes (smogon elo system needs a rework imo but that goes beyond this tier)

Anyways I will say I've warmed up on the tier a bit, especially now that psy terrain lets you block (most) priority and let's mega barbaracle finally feel viable (kinda). I've at least had some fun finally.

But man, the meta definitely is stale. I know most competitive games, especially pokemon, have a tendency of only a small amount of the roster being used. But this has to be the most same-y meta I've personally experienced. I'm beyond sick of corvinight, samurott and garchomp at this point, and the fact that 80% at least of matches have either garchomp or samurott as the lead with little variety sucks. I know champions has a small roster, people play what's good, and more than ever people rely on sample teams....but man the lack of variety is unfortunate. I feel like there's a lot of interesting pokemon that are just not getting used, and a lot of kegas with tons of potential that are being completely unexplored

I'm honestly not sure what the solution is, other than waiting for more pokemon to be added (though even then, how much will it really help variety? Will things like ting lu returning really make the meta less stale?). But I feel the tier definitely needs something. Perhaps removing the "one pokemon per item" clause could help? The logic was iirc that with the small item pool the clause should be there, but we have more items now. Light clay being unbanned seems like a way to help some megas get more use, but may also make the already strong stronger. Perhaps better priority on bans? I can't say I understand why damp rock and light clay were banned before so much of the other things in the meta (outside of "smaller tiers usually ban them" which is the main argument I've heard, and it's not a real argument). Samurott I think should be looked at, as while I'm not sure if it's inherently broken it's definitely oppressive and restrictive. I'd argue more so than ghosengo, who id also say isn't really broken, but I know that's a hot take

Honestly, even just more promotion of other megas and team comps would be nice. I know a significant amount of people on ladder rely on youtubers, top ladder/"pro" players, and especially sample teams, and spreading more diversity in those would be nice. I think people need to explore some of the other kegas more as well. Personally if it were up to me I'd just outright ban the top 3 most used pokemon awhile to force diversity, but I know that won't happen and probably isn't a good idea lol.

Tldr I've played more and had more success and found some fun in the tier, but it's also extremely stale and repetitive and needs something to breath new life into it. Maybe removing the one pokemon per item clause, maybe better placed bans, maybe just more sample teams and promoting other options better, but certainly we need something

 

[Magcargo]

More bans doesn't necessarily lead to a better metagame. I think its up to the playerbase to explore and come up with new solutions to the common cores. For example - one set I enjoyed in the previous metagame was Sheer Force Life Orb Conkeldurr, which does a fantastic job at breaking down the Corviknight / Garchomp / Slowking-G / Samurott-H core (with Life Orb Thunder Punch 2HKOing Corviknight and Slowking-G). Unlike Metagross, this Pokemon notably does not consume a Mega slot, it hits the defensive cores much harder, and has a dark resistance giving it a stronger MU into Dark-types such as Kingambit or Samurott-H. Mentioning this Pokmeon specifically because I believe it is still underrated, despite getting a tad worse due to the terrains - and arguably better than Mega Metagross.

In general, while the big 4 core is effective, I also think its a core spammed more out of laziness, and you usually could get away running only a couple of members of the core. More offensive teams have more readily available alternatives and other options on bulkier structures exist as well - though all of garchomp, corv, samu and your regen mon of choice do offer a lot of MU coverage in their own right. A lot of new comps have been enabled thanks to the new items and I think its up to us to expirement more rather than rely on what we are comfortable with. For example - a Pokemon like Mimikyu likely has a role on offensive comps now with Red Card, letting it phase out Sneasler, and its STAB Combo is quite annoying for the big 4, particularly if it opts for options like Taunt or Wisp to cripple Corviknight. Most g-terrain teams will run sneasler or Hawlucha, but something like Espathra has untapped potential on these comps as well, as Grassy Seed patches up its defense letting it more easily setup Calm mind and sweep. There are many other examples.

With Mega Raichu-Y banned, I think we likely will be seeing big 4 cores..... about as much as we saw before as big 4 + broken mega is still quite good. But alternative comps have more wiggle room to run different ground-types such as Balloon Excadrill which is good.

 

[Darth Ragebait]

Hopefully With Raichu Y Banned, the Metagame will be Atleast more Manageble then Before.

Defensive Pokemom Like:corviknight: :toxapex: , :slowking-galar: etc are now much Better then before Thanks to the Sheer Lack of Electric Types and not Anymore Terrified to Get Fucked by a Zap Cannon with the Only Revelant Electric in the Metagame Type Being Pawmot is now more Easy to Check Threads Like Mega Golisopod, Kingambit etc.

:pawmot: is Now the Only Revelant Electric Type in the Tier and thanks to Double Shock/Ice Punch/Revival Blessing, etc it can be Much more Viable in this Tier now, but i Doubt it will be Higher then B+, Maybe A- but that's About it.

Bulky Ground and Dragon Types like :garchomp: :hippowdon: :excadrill: :hydreigon: etc are not Afraid to Eat, Surfer, Grass Knot, Focus Blast and Alluring Voice Anymore and it will Help to Beat Other Threads in the Tier Like Ceruledge, Aegislash, Hamurott etc

:primarina: Lost with Y Raichu another Thread which it can Revenge Kill what makes this Pokemon more Opressive and with the Rise of Bulky Dragon, and Ground will make the Primadonna much more Harder to Deal it.

:conkeldurr: is Criminaly Underrated like @marcargo Say it. Life Orb Sheer Force Conk can Destroy Most Defensive Mons in the Tier and is Useful as a Hamurott and Kingambit Check. I think i Should Try this Mon out.

:samurott hisui: Lost with Y Raichu one off his best Teammates for this Insane Pressure to Switch the Mons Multiple Times and let them get Weakend by the Spikes, but still Hamurott is now Clearly the Strongest Mon in the Tier By a Landslide and Hooefully it get Suspect-Tested.

:rillaboom: :sneasler: Grassy Terrain Teams Lost a Very good Mon which Help against Flying Types and now Need to Run Pawmot which is Not Bad, but is still a Loss which Affected the Team. (Atleast the Mega Slot is Now Free for this Type of Teams).

:dragalge-mega: Was the best Raichu Y Check, but with the Ban and the Winners it will be Less Popular thanks to the Ground Types, Hamurott and the Rise of some Defensive Mons Like Pex it will be more Harder to Recommend it.

Hopefully the Hamurott Suspect Test will nlt be to Far in the Future even with Raichu Y Gone, this Thing still Push Offensive Teams Over the Edge and Make Balance and Defense Oriented Teams more a Pain in the Ass to Play it.

 

[Moyashi]

Ding dong the rat has gone... to enjoy its retirement because ain't no way it'd ever see use even if there was a Champions Ubers tier.

Ahem.

I don't really think there's any true losers to this ban, since YChu's ban opens open building a lot and there will be less stress on mons that were formerly used to check it. But winners...

:Pawmot:
This mon is not the easiest to build with but it is GOOD. Incredibly potent wallbreaker that can 2HKO most defensive pokemon with LO and its stabs, Ice Punch smashing through most of the remaining answers to its stabs. It does barely miss on KOs vs healthy bulky Chomp but it's hardly a dealbreaker since that takes damage so often. Has a very free 4th moveslot after stabs+ice punch, which there are many good choices. I like Encore, but Mach Punch keeps it from being picked off by Sucker Punch, as even with a resist it's very much frail still and post CC it can be vulnerable to the move.

:garchomp: :hippowdon: :gliscor: :excadrill:
Grounds generally improve if only because they're now less pressured to stay at super high health for a YChu in the back, and thus can focus on checking other stuff. Hippo I feel is especially great since now it has the luxury of possibly flexing between spdef or more of a physical focus, depending on the team's needs. Physdef being a really sturdy stop to Blaziken and ZardX (brokens), also stopping Zabsol cold. Gliscor meanwhile was a very underrated pick even during YChu's time, but it gets better now that it's not forced to be so careful constantly with its health. Strong hazard setter this one, especially with taunt to shut off defog from Corv.

:Metagross-Mega: :Staraptor-Mega: :Froslass-Mega:
Both of these while able to slam YChu hard on a good predicted switch in, hated 1v1ing it. Meta could trade at least, but it would often be paralyzed in the end while Raptor just loses to YChu always. So it leaving is great for both. (btw run Body Press Mega Meta, much better than EQ which only really serves to hit Aegislash). Froslass meanwhile might seem like a weird 'gets better', but it lost not only an offensive check but also competition with YChu's ban. It's quite fast itself, and ice stab is incredibly threatening in this metagame, especially with how many teams rely on Garchomp to glue teams together. It slices right through Corv/Chomp/Glowking structures, and even can burn Hamurott with Wisp.

:Samurott-Hisui:
I guess this is a loser... in the sense that now that it's #1 partner in crime is banned, the spotlight is on it now but eh. We're all winners if this thing gets the boot someday. (I hate this thing even though it looks cool)

Few other thought

:Conkeldurr:
Don't really see it at all tbh. It's incredibly lacking in defensive profile and invites in a lot of dangerous pokemon (Meganium, Floette, Aegislash, Annihilape, Staraptor) and is heavily prediction reliant which is quite undesirable given how slow it is, making wrong predictions very punishing. It's not horrible don't get me wrong, but it's niche at most and I don't really think it goes beyond that.

:Dragalge-Mega:
This one's totally fine. The departure of YChu is actually good for it, since now it's not perpetually pressured to run max spdef and can focus on other spreads and movesets. It still nicely checks Mega Meganium while also beating up Hatterene, is a great Primarina check (though I've never been that high on this mon but hey, it's there), absorbs and sets toxic spikes which in this meta is very valuable, and just has good longevity and is a nice active pivot that doesn't have to fear dropping momentum like some other pivots do.

:Garchomp-Mega-Z:
This mon is very solid and I'm even more high of opinion on this mon than I was when I first nommed it in the VR thread. Strong speed control and wallbreaking in one slot, capable of soft checking a lot of frailer offensive in a pinch. Being spikes immune means it also isn't that easy to wear down, and providing teams with a webs immune speed control option that's this fast is nice. Solidly customizable moveset too. Of course, big opportunity cost when base Chomp is so good, but there's real merit to this mon as well. Don't overlook it, give it a try.

Side note, but... I miss :Mandibuzz:
Kinda wish we had it around right now.