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Tournament Party Dojo - Deltamon Kickoff Tournament WON BY UPPA!
- Thread starter Toxic Ariados
- Start date
IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give Astigmatism -30 Attack and put those points into Flowery's Speed
flowery lost speed for a reason, and I'm saying this as a flowery user.
give flowery hadron engine for grass types
also the flowerylings will basically be flowery but with fighting type pop bomb and higher speed and lower atk
also the flowerylings will basically be flowery but with fighting type pop bomb and higher speed and lower atk
THE HALFWAY MARK HAS BEEN
ATTAINED
HOW MUCH LONGER NOW?
Shoutout to pecha nerd for assisting with the bracket!
The deadline for Round 3 is Sunday, October 11 at 11:59 PM GMT-5.ATTAINED
HOW MUCH LONGER NOW?
Shoutout to pecha nerd for assisting with the bracket!
BrilliantStar vs eggdude
Mimikoing~! vs asgore_1225
Peum vs mush-room
Sussaix vs AthenaStrive9
PileOfTrubbish vs uppa
Icecream Gobbler vs richardpapen
Silver Trogdorf vs MafuSimp
pecha nerd vs GabrieLopez
ANNOUNCEMENT: Mid Tournament Balancing Patch?
The tournament has been going on for a while and there have been some things that I think have proven to be far too effective to be considered healthy for the metagame. I am considering taking action on Flowery, Queen, and Sun. I would appreciate everyone's input regarding the changes I have proposed:
Changes: 118 Speed -> 109, 81 Special Attack -> 90, -Growth
Jarona: Effect Update: 30% chance to lower Defense by 1. High critical rate.
Justification: It's no secret that Flowery is one of the best Pokemon in the format right now. Boasting incredible offenses, a powerful signature move, and an astronomical speed stat, further boosted by Blossom Boost. Allowing him to outspeed practically anything, after a Bulk Up, most teams are forced to find a hard wall to him or risk getting ripped apart. Dropping his speed significantly would force Blossom speed sets to sink a good amount of attack EVs into other stats to get the speed boost. At 109 speed, he is much easier to threaten with Pokemon such as Berdly, Aqua, or even Roaring Knight (if you're crazy enough to tech Brave Bird). How do we feel about this change? Do you think his speed should be above base 110s, or maybe directly at 110 speed instead? If so, let me know!
Jarona: Effect Update: 30% chance to lower Defense by 1. High critical rate.
Justification: It's no secret that Flowery is one of the best Pokemon in the format right now. Boasting incredible offenses, a powerful signature move, and an astronomical speed stat, further boosted by Blossom Boost. Allowing him to outspeed practically anything, after a Bulk Up, most teams are forced to find a hard wall to him or risk getting ripped apart. Dropping his speed significantly would force Blossom speed sets to sink a good amount of attack EVs into other stats to get the speed boost. At 109 speed, he is much easier to threaten with Pokemon such as Berdly, Aqua, or even Roaring Knight (if you're crazy enough to tech Brave Bird). How do we feel about this change? Do you think his speed should be above base 110s, or maybe directly at 110 speed instead? If so, let me know!
Changes: 104 Speed -> 96, 64 Attack -> 72
Justification: Queen does a lot. She has three excellent abilities, Levitate being the most popular as it gives her only one weakness. She also has access to Calm Mind, solid coverage, and Taunt to force progress. Her speed tier is great for what she does. It's hard for other Pokemon with middling speed to pressure her as she can just Volt Switch in their face and bring out someone else who can keep up the pressure. Dropping her speed below 100 makes her struggle a good deal more against things she previously pressured. Like Jevil and Pink for example. I'm also considering taking Calm Mind from her but I'm unsure if that would be too much.
Justification: Queen does a lot. She has three excellent abilities, Levitate being the most popular as it gives her only one weakness. She also has access to Calm Mind, solid coverage, and Taunt to force progress. Her speed tier is great for what she does. It's hard for other Pokemon with middling speed to pressure her as she can just Volt Switch in their face and bring out someone else who can keep up the pressure. Dropping her speed below 100 makes her struggle a good deal more against things she previously pressured. Like Jevil and Pink for example. I'm also considering taking Calm Mind from her but I'm unsure if that would be too much.
Changes: Lanino: -U-Turn, ???
Justification: Sun has been a pretty domineering playstyle in this tournament, and it's pretty easy to see why. Though trying to pinpoint the correct course of action against it is difficult. I think taking U-Turn from Lanino is a good start as it slows down Sun's momentum. There's a very powerful breaking core in Mr. Sunshine, Mega Mettaton Y, and Parsnik. I'd say Mettaton Y is the biggest offender. He tends to feel like Super Iron Moth with his available options, and you can even use Victory Dance to boost your low defense and outspeed everything, and Victory Dancing in the base form is a safe way to get a boost due to your great defenses. Simply taking Victory Dance from Mettaton would severely harm Mettaton X which I don't really want to do. I think lowering the Special Attack/Speed of Mettaton Y and/or Sunshine might be a good idea, but I'm not quite sure where to go yet. This is where I'd really like some feedback from you guys.
Justification: Sun has been a pretty domineering playstyle in this tournament, and it's pretty easy to see why. Though trying to pinpoint the correct course of action against it is difficult. I think taking U-Turn from Lanino is a good start as it slows down Sun's momentum. There's a very powerful breaking core in Mr. Sunshine, Mega Mettaton Y, and Parsnik. I'd say Mettaton Y is the biggest offender. He tends to feel like Super Iron Moth with his available options, and you can even use Victory Dance to boost your low defense and outspeed everything, and Victory Dancing in the base form is a safe way to get a boost due to your great defenses. Simply taking Victory Dance from Mettaton would severely harm Mettaton X which I don't really want to do. I think lowering the Special Attack/Speed of Mettaton Y and/or Sunshine might be a good idea, but I'm not quite sure where to go yet. This is where I'd really like some feedback from you guys.
Shadow Mantle: 110 Speed -> 105, 75 Defense -> 80
Justification: Not too much to say about this one. Shadow Mantle has been fairly oppressive with its great speed tier + access to Nasty Plot, Wisp, and Flame Charge. Knocking down its speed should allow Werewerewire (and perhaps some other scarfers) to pressure it a little more, though Mantle with Shadow Shield can still threaten Will-O-Wisp against it.
Spear Barrage: 25 BP -> 20 BP
Justification: I feel as though Spear Barrage hits way too hard right now. This change will reduce the sky-high damage output that Swords Dance Undyne puts out while still keeping it as a very reliable Water Type move for her.
Mettaton: -Triple Axel
Justification: A pretty simple change. Triple Axel gave Mettaton X some really strong Ice coverage to complement his Electric STAB moves. He still has access to Ice Spinner, though it should be far less destructive than Triple Axel.
Winglade: -Rapid Spin, +Spin Out
Justification: This was a change suggested by uppa that I do like. Let's face it, Winglade is the best hazard removal Deltamon has to offer. It's extremely consistent at what it does, and with its amazing natural bulk, it can stave off more than a few hits. It's irritatingly consistent. Forcing it to rely on Defog opens up a few more playstyles that can exploit the move's shortcomings, and allow the tier's other Rapid Spin options to rise towards a niche. In exchange for this, Winglade will get Spin Out, which gives it a strong Steel Type attack, in case it wants it. I'm aware that this one might be controversial, so feel free to voice your opinions on it.
Floradinn: -Sleep Powder, +Lick
Justification: After watching some of the tournament games, I think that Sleep Powder on something so excellently defensive such as Floradinn is too much. I've also wanted to take action on <100% accurate sleep moves, but I'll save that question for a poll I have planned at the end of the tournament.
Floradinn also gets Lick because he be liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicking it. This is non-negotiable.
Rabbick: 60 Defense -> 70
Justification: Yet another simple change. This makes Rabbick a little less passive into physical attackers. While 95/70 bulk is still a shortcoming, it won't be nearly as pressuring as Rabbick's current 95/60 bulk.
Ribbick: 60 Special Defense -> 70
Justification: Really the same as Rabbick, not much else to say here.
Justification: Not too much to say about this one. Shadow Mantle has been fairly oppressive with its great speed tier + access to Nasty Plot, Wisp, and Flame Charge. Knocking down its speed should allow Werewerewire (and perhaps some other scarfers) to pressure it a little more, though Mantle with Shadow Shield can still threaten Will-O-Wisp against it.
Spear Barrage: 25 BP -> 20 BP
Justification: I feel as though Spear Barrage hits way too hard right now. This change will reduce the sky-high damage output that Swords Dance Undyne puts out while still keeping it as a very reliable Water Type move for her.
Mettaton: -Triple Axel
Justification: A pretty simple change. Triple Axel gave Mettaton X some really strong Ice coverage to complement his Electric STAB moves. He still has access to Ice Spinner, though it should be far less destructive than Triple Axel.
Winglade: -Rapid Spin, +Spin Out
Justification: This was a change suggested by uppa that I do like. Let's face it, Winglade is the best hazard removal Deltamon has to offer. It's extremely consistent at what it does, and with its amazing natural bulk, it can stave off more than a few hits. It's irritatingly consistent. Forcing it to rely on Defog opens up a few more playstyles that can exploit the move's shortcomings, and allow the tier's other Rapid Spin options to rise towards a niche. In exchange for this, Winglade will get Spin Out, which gives it a strong Steel Type attack, in case it wants it. I'm aware that this one might be controversial, so feel free to voice your opinions on it.
Floradinn: -Sleep Powder, +Lick
Justification: After watching some of the tournament games, I think that Sleep Powder on something so excellently defensive such as Floradinn is too much. I've also wanted to take action on <100% accurate sleep moves, but I'll save that question for a poll I have planned at the end of the tournament.
Floradinn also gets Lick because he be liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicking it. This is non-negotiable.
Rabbick: 60 Defense -> 70
Justification: Yet another simple change. This makes Rabbick a little less passive into physical attackers. While 95/70 bulk is still a shortcoming, it won't be nearly as pressuring as Rabbick's current 95/60 bulk.
Ribbick: 60 Special Defense -> 70
Justification: Really the same as Rabbick, not much else to say here.
Please let me know what you think of these changes in the replies, it'd help me improve the tier greatly! Note that none of these changes are final yet, and all of them are up for discussion.
Last edited:
As far as I'm aware, none of them attempted to schedule, so I just flipped a coin. Stay tuned for a round 3 as during that time I also want to discuss some potential mid tournament balance patches, I would appreciate input from everyone when that comes around!
I believe a buff for Pyrope will be great since sand is clearly left behind when compared to sun and rain. The main change I am thinking of is a buff to Pyropes HP/defenses because of how hard it really is getting Pyropes onto the field since it is too squishy to be able to switch in on any neutral attack while also having to deal with a weakness to hazards if it doesn’t runs boots but then it lacks the damage it needs from life orb and choice band with life orb making survivability worse and choice band allowing the opponent to exploit the one move which just makes it not seem worth it due to the amount of effort spent getting it onto the field all while flare blitz adds more chip which it hates
Like, any sand force mon. Please. Sand needs this. Making Pyrope more slottable would also be great since we lack any easy to slot fire types which is what led to flowery being so powerful and the reason that Flowey is mainly scared of cc and u-turns. And finally, give white cloak better special defense by relocating one of her attacking stats. Thats mainly it from me though I do feel as though Winglade losing rapid spin was a bit uncalled for.
"Is this the part where I get to tag everyone?"
"Yes, it is."
"Yes, it is."
my thoughts on each of these Toxic Ariados
I also don't really want to see its speed changed, weirdly. The meta has warped around it in a good way imo, and forcing it to invest less in attack just to maintain booster speed will make it more inconsistent than it really deserves. If we want to target its snowball potential like what motivated the Jarona nerf, I suggest -Bulk Up.
MY thoughts on mons that were not mentioned:
Glyde: -20 attack, +20 Speed
I just hate this mon lol, throw a bone to people who don't want to run Winglade on every team. This has no business 2hkoing Gerson.
Jackenstein: -Moonlight OR -Substitute
I get that this is his role, to trade with whatever he wants by spamming sub and protect, but I don't think he should be able to set up on absolutely any defensive mon and drain all of their healing moves' pp. He does his job toooo well right now, especially into offense, and he's just straightforwardly too lame for how consistent he is.
Ralsei: -Species Gender Lock
Let her be happy, it's what Flowery would have wanted.
This one I have the most thoughts on. I want to insist that Flowery's access to Growth isn't a problem since, at least in my experience, sun teams don't really force Floradinn in to take any chip to put it in range of +2 zen headbutt the way balance teams do, and so a +2 Flowery feels pretty tame in that matchup, and is hardly the most oppressive thing about sun.
I also don't really want to see its speed changed, weirdly. The meta has warped around it in a good way imo, and forcing it to invest less in attack just to maintain booster speed will make it more inconsistent than it really deserves. If we want to target its snowball potential like what motivated the Jarona nerf, I suggest -Bulk Up.
Putting Queen below Jevil is a change I'm kind of ehhh on. Offensive rapid spin jevils are already kind of a demon in the midgame, and neutering Queen's ability to answer him makes scarf sets way worse. I think -Calm Mind and no speed change is a better change since it has less risk of collateral.
Good change, pretty necessary. If you want to nerf Mettaton Y too, nerf its speed so it doesnt create game-dependent speed ties with Gerson or outspeed flowery after one victory dance.
I think the rise of Toriel, Royal Guard 1, and Titan Spawn in usage has already naturally nerfed this mon into being tame, and I'd consider its most consistent set to be two attacks + toxic + any of np/wisp/flame charge. Werewerewire already beats this mon with Booster Speed, too. If any change is made, I think -Flame Charge could be good just as a slight buff for Gerson in the matchup while leaving its Flowery matchup unchanged.
Agree, shoutouts to whoever suggested this. This is mostly motivated by giving Gerson stuff to do vs Winglade, rather than being a complete momentum sink against it. Presently, Gerson feels way too good into non-Winglade teams, and way too bad into Winglade teams. We can address the latter by letting Gerson taunt winglade out of removing hazards while denying its healing, and Winglade can still u-turn and sacred sword gerson in return. Right now, Winglade spins every time as Gerson taunts, and can just keep clicking rapin spin until its fast enough to get a roost off, which makes Gerson feel very all-or-nothing like gen 9 OU Excadrill.
Don't like this at all. Removing sleep powder gives it so little to do in front of Winglade, pre or post-nerf. I think forcing Floradinn to run sacred sword in this slot (to target gerson and undyne) will make it thud so hard into Winglade that Floradinn will end up being u-turn food that never actually keeps hazards up, inadvertantly buffing Flowery and Gerson. Moreover, I've found sleep to be pretty healthy in this metagame since Floradinn itself lacks pivoting and it becomes very exploitable (in a healthy way) after a sleep sac to mons like Gerson, Undyne, and Queen.
MY thoughts on mons that were not mentioned:
Glyde: -20 attack, +20 Speed
I just hate this mon lol, throw a bone to people who don't want to run Winglade on every team. This has no business 2hkoing Gerson.
Jackenstein: -Moonlight OR -Substitute
I get that this is his role, to trade with whatever he wants by spamming sub and protect, but I don't think he should be able to set up on absolutely any defensive mon and drain all of their healing moves' pp. He does his job toooo well right now, especially into offense, and he's just straightforwardly too lame for how consistent he is.
Ralsei: -Species Gender Lock
Let her be happy, it's what Flowery would have wanted.
Spamton-Mega: +Autotomize, +Electro Shot, -Big Shot, -Mega Launcher
I think the thesis of this mon being "it will function like ursaluna" hasn't really panned out and in practice he's been super inconsistent and jobless. (no, it won't make rain broken, i don't think, since he needs more than one autotomize to outspeed Flowery and Gerson).
Werewerewire: -Shocking Snare, +Thunder Cage, +Body Press
I appreciate shocking snare in concept but it realistically only has one target, and I don't think it's really healthy for said target to just outspeed and kill you from 70%. Thunder Cage is also a thematically appropriate move that gives Werewerewire more targets to trap and makes him less of just a Worse Flowery.
Green: +Pyromancy, +Regenerator
I get they're meant to be a doubles gimmick mon but they're SO close to being really cool in singles.
Tenna: +something
Wow he's bad
I think the thesis of this mon being "it will function like ursaluna" hasn't really panned out and in practice he's been super inconsistent and jobless. (no, it won't make rain broken, i don't think, since he needs more than one autotomize to outspeed Flowery and Gerson).
Werewerewire: -Shocking Snare, +Thunder Cage, +Body Press
I appreciate shocking snare in concept but it realistically only has one target, and I don't think it's really healthy for said target to just outspeed and kill you from 70%. Thunder Cage is also a thematically appropriate move that gives Werewerewire more targets to trap and makes him less of just a Worse Flowery.
Green: +Pyromancy, +Regenerator
I get they're meant to be a doubles gimmick mon but they're SO close to being really cool in singles.
Tenna: +something
Wow he's bad
Ok lets discuss some mentioned buffs:
Ribbick, Rabbick and Floradinn are fine. The buffs to them aren't too much and sleep powder floradinn was pretty annoying. Mettaton losing Triple Axel is fine, as you said, he does still have ice spinner so its not like all hope is lost. The Spear Barrage damage drop is also pretty important, it was dealing a lot of damage,
Now we have the ones I'm not too sure about. Mantle seemed uncalled for. It needed +1 Speed to actually face a lot of mons and Glyde was still able to pick off Mantle that were on low HP. Not to mention B Boost Speed Flowery being able to stop it in its tracks unless you somehow got away with 2 Flame Charges. Winglade losing Rapid Spin also feels a bit weird to me. It was sorta like a choice. You either run rapid spin and lose the Slow Winglade U-Turn or you run Defog and lose against Stone Axe Susie with defiant. Also, Spin Out is just not worth it for losing a major part of its moveset.
Eh gotta few notes. 111 Speed is probably better and I have not seen growth Flowery at all so him losing that doesn't really make sense. Jarona having a lower chance to lower defense means that Ambyu has a better chance of switching in. 111 Speed also means that you can't run max Attack investments and still get B Boost Speed so it also lowers Flowery's damage.
I feel like this is too slow. I feel as if losing Calm Mind would be the best fix. Nasty Plot if still there if you want her to still have set up but I feel like her being able to boost her Special Defense is really annoying especially when it comes with a power boost.
No notes. Sun is powerful.
Ok this one is a big one. Lets cover the ones I'm fine with first.
Ribbick, Rabbick and Floradinn are fine. The buffs to them aren't too much and sleep powder floradinn was pretty annoying. Mettaton losing Triple Axel is fine, as you said, he does still have ice spinner so its not like all hope is lost. The Spear Barrage damage drop is also pretty important, it was dealing a lot of damage,
Now we have the ones I'm not too sure about. Mantle seemed uncalled for. It needed +1 Speed to actually face a lot of mons and Glyde was still able to pick off Mantle that were on low HP. Not to mention B Boost Speed Flowery being able to stop it in its tracks unless you somehow got away with 2 Flame Charges. Winglade losing Rapid Spin also feels a bit weird to me. It was sorta like a choice. You either run rapid spin and lose the Slow Winglade U-Turn or you run Defog and lose against Stone Axe Susie with defiant. Also, Spin Out is just not worth it for losing a major part of its moveset.
I’m out now will be willing to help build teams for others ggs and wp deserved
I believe they got 2 byes consecutively, leading them to advance to this round by default.
hey its me I just forgot my password sorry