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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I have been laying the groundwork for a potential Roaring Moon retest. Would be awful nice for community discourse to be about our actual game instead of the nonsense that has consumed us lately.
Ok. Looking at roaring moon. I both don't see what changed and also dont see why it should remain banned. I think it's a curious case of a Pokemon not being broken or unhealthy that ended up being banned. But hey. I only joined smogon after the roaring moon suspect so someone with more knowledge than me should talk about this. Also are you talking about the bots or something else?
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Tera Blast was banned, which it used over a quarter of the time prior to being banned the second time. I’d also argue the metagame changed a lot in terms of team structures, priority usage, and defensive Tera allocation in the last year (and it has been much longer than that since the Roaring Moon suspect).
It was broken prior to both bans, receiving 70% and 66% support during respective suspects. There was just not enough counterplay that covered both offensive DD sets and the surging bulky DD sets by the end, which frequently ran Tera (Blast) Fairy.
And yes, the bots. It is absolutely ridiculous that the community has been swept up by them as opposed to the actual game or the work of humans.
Is discussing terapagos nonsense? I hope not
Realistically it's difficult to say without a test whether or not Moon is broken without Tera Blast Fairy imo, it certainly doesn't appreciate losing the option but it also wasn't like it was using Tera Blast Fairy to beat one or two specific mons, it was more so that Fairy Blast was a strong neutral option that complemented it's existing coverage. I think it's possible for Moon to either return or stay gone depending on how pivotal Tera Fairy was to those DD sets.
The real question for me is why we would want Moon back regardless. It does have some defensive merits but ultimately it's another terrifying sweeper to prep for in a tier already oversaturated with similar mons, and it still has access to defensive Tera to flip match ups. Volcarona is a similar case that the community pretty convincingly rejected, and I don't really see Moon being any different, I'd predict a lot of people just won't want to deal with it again. I don't see testing Roaring Moon as a priority for anyone really and I'd respectfully like to ask why this is being prioritized over looking into Terapagos or any of the elements that others have identified (Light Clay, Kyurem etc.) as potentially unhealthy in the current meta. I'm aware the former is a special case that would need a policy review and none of the latter have received significant enough support in surveys but I think both would be of more interest to the community than adding Potentially Broken Sweeper #3561 back to the ladder for a couple weeks.
The real question for me is why we would want Moon back regardless. It does have some defensive merits but ultimately it's another terrifying sweeper to prep for in a tier already oversaturated with similar mons, and it still has access to defensive Tera to flip match ups. Volcarona is a similar case that the community pretty convincingly rejected, and I don't really see Moon being any different, I'd predict a lot of people just won't want to deal with it again. I don't see testing Roaring Moon as a priority for anyone really and I'd respectfully like to ask why this is being prioritized over looking into Terapagos or any of the elements that others have identified (Light Clay, Kyurem etc.) as potentially unhealthy in the current meta. I'm aware the former is a special case that would need a policy review and none of the latter have received significant enough support in surveys but I think both would be of more interest to the community than adding Potentially Broken Sweeper #3561 back to the ladder for a couple weeks.
I feel like I have said all I could say about Roaring Moon already. It shouldn't come back to the tier imo even though I do think a suspect is warranted. It would be broken/unhealthy in this meta due to screens and its bulkier sets. As for the community discourse part, I assume you are talking about the bots thanks to the next post down. While I understand not liking that sort of discussion taking priority over the actual tier discussion, respectfully I think it is important to discuss that as it does impact Smogon's future a lot. I don't necessarily know if this specific thread is a good place to discuss it but in general, I don't think this is an issue that should be ignored. If you are not talking about the bots, please don't shut down discussion on Terapagos again because I feel like that discussion was somewhat productive since we were talking about a pokemon that realistically is only banned because of a technicality rather than it being bad for the tier.
Nope, strictly about AI. Terapagos was not what I was referencing there.
I’m not interested in discussing it further in this thread. PM me or check my Twitter if you want my detailed thoughts on the topic. It’s not for here. I just want focus to be shifted onto the actual game. We play an awesome game filled with passionate people — their efforts deserve to be recognized. Hoping the best and brightest would participate in a potential retest if it were to happen.
Free roaring moon, definitely deserves a retest after tb ban. Has great defensive use (fuck you ceruledge) and can't screw over it's answers with tera blast anymore. Obviously tera ground eq tera fly acro and band/scarf on sun are gonna be threats but free him regardless (please)
Also, when you say retest do you mean Roaring Moon or Terapagos because I can't tell.
I agree that it deserves a suspect, but I don't think the Ceruledge thing matters since (even though it has to sacrifice either shadow sneak or poltergeist) it can use close combat to beat Roaring Moon. In general, I don't think the defensive benefits of Roaring Moon matter and if anything, makes its offensive power even more potent.
Moon UltraSword
Dammit. I got my hopes and dreams of a tier with the fluffy and huggable turtle up for a second.
sneak is a very important part of what makes ceruledge stupid and no you cant drop poltergeist
Oh it's still a possibility. It'll just take time before we know if it's happening
Respectfully, how can future suspect tests be given any credence given how accessible the tools to achieve requirements are? A person motivated enough to achieve reqs solely through any means can now do so and that will only get easier and easier with time.
I feel that the technical details in the initial bots policy post regarding the Smogon ecosystem needs to be fleshed out first before conducting any future tests especially as one as big as current gen OU. If we have one before then, there will always be a question mark hanging over the integrity of the outcome (and people who don't get what they want, could cite that as a reason for re-test).
I feel that the technical details in the initial bots policy post regarding the Smogon ecosystem needs to be fleshed out first before conducting any future tests especially as one as big as current gen OU. If we have one before then, there will always be a question mark hanging over the integrity of the outcome (and people who don't get what they want, could cite that as a reason for re-test).
I frankly have a double-standard when it comes to bans vs unbans. For bans, I think that for something to be banned, it needs to be unable to be handled, consistently, in tandem with the rest of the metagame. No underlying concepts of health, improvement, or competitiveness, though 90% of the time, one (if not all three) of those are direct fallout to the banning of mons that fit the given criteria.
overvaluing skill expression and competitiveness is in and of itself a skill issue and an uncompetitive mindset respectively but thats a tangent for another time
For unbans/drops, though, I think that they need to provide a net positive influence and presence on the tier in order to drop (i.e. DPP Latias). There need to be problems in the tier that the dropping mon would fix or alleviate, without the introduction or exacerbation of other problems in the process (and without any preferential treatment given to previous OU denizens or victims of close voting percentages).
As far as I can see, roaring moon passes the former, but fails the latter;
-it DOES fix problems in the tier, in providing dual STAB resistances vs ceruledge and generally being a wanted additional offensive mon that can actually switch into ghost/dark attacks, and puts pressure onto cress:
252+ Atk Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 204-242 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [this is w/o band, a DD, or proto active]
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 102-120 (29 - 34.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock [needs a 238 spatk stat to start rolling for 2hko, 252+ is still technically not guaranteed]
which helps restrict its sets and the teams it's used on, now that it wants to run moonblast or utility like twave more.
-it DOES exacerbate a current problem: another offensive sweeping threat to add to the pile, and one that sits near the top of the threatlist at that. With a resistance to sucker punch and STAB that's only resisted by kingambit and iron valiant in the top 11 mons, adaptations will certainly be forced to deal with its presence specifically (more valiants, bandnites, low kick gambits, more dark resist stacking, more fairies in a tier with more steel coverage and real poison STAB users, etc), and I'm not entirely sure that the displacement of other sets/mons, or the increase in these sets/mons, wouldn't destabilize the already somewhat volatile ability to answer the current offensive threatlist. In fact, I'd go so far that it'd invoke the third point of my philosophy on earning a ban - while RM could certainly be handled, consistently, by basically every teamstyle, I DO NOT think that it can be done in tandem with the rest of the metagame. it'd be a little too much, tip the scales a little too far, and warrant SOMETHING'S ban.
This being said.
While I DO think that a drop would put the metagame in a position that requires a ban... it may be possible that the mon most deserving of that ban, the removal that has the best ratio between minimizing problem exacerbation and maximizing offensive pressure alleviation, is NOT Roaring Moon. but I don't feel qualified to nominate suspects for that take quite yet myself, though.
overvaluing skill expression and competitiveness is in and of itself a skill issue and an uncompetitive mindset respectively but thats a tangent for another time
For unbans/drops, though, I think that they need to provide a net positive influence and presence on the tier in order to drop (i.e. DPP Latias). There need to be problems in the tier that the dropping mon would fix or alleviate, without the introduction or exacerbation of other problems in the process (and without any preferential treatment given to previous OU denizens or victims of close voting percentages).
As far as I can see, roaring moon passes the former, but fails the latter;
-it DOES fix problems in the tier, in providing dual STAB resistances vs ceruledge and generally being a wanted additional offensive mon that can actually switch into ghost/dark attacks, and puts pressure onto cress:
252+ Atk Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 204-242 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [this is w/o band, a DD, or proto active]
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 102-120 (29 - 34.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock [needs a 238 spatk stat to start rolling for 2hko, 252+ is still technically not guaranteed]
which helps restrict its sets and the teams it's used on, now that it wants to run moonblast or utility like twave more.
-it DOES exacerbate a current problem: another offensive sweeping threat to add to the pile, and one that sits near the top of the threatlist at that. With a resistance to sucker punch and STAB that's only resisted by kingambit and iron valiant in the top 11 mons, adaptations will certainly be forced to deal with its presence specifically (more valiants, bandnites, low kick gambits, more dark resist stacking, more fairies in a tier with more steel coverage and real poison STAB users, etc), and I'm not entirely sure that the displacement of other sets/mons, or the increase in these sets/mons, wouldn't destabilize the already somewhat volatile ability to answer the current offensive threatlist. In fact, I'd go so far that it'd invoke the third point of my philosophy on earning a ban - while RM could certainly be handled, consistently, by basically every teamstyle, I DO NOT think that it can be done in tandem with the rest of the metagame. it'd be a little too much, tip the scales a little too far, and warrant SOMETHING'S ban.
This being said.
While I DO think that a drop would put the metagame in a position that requires a ban... it may be possible that the mon most deserving of that ban, the removal that has the best ratio between minimizing problem exacerbation and maximizing offensive pressure alleviation, is NOT Roaring Moon. but I don't feel qualified to nominate suspects for that take quite yet myself, though.
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Order of operations probably should be Clay Test -> Moon test, as Moon was notoriously good on screens as well.
Idk, Hard to say how it will affect the metagame. I imagine many cheesers that rose up post Moon like Zarude, Cress, Ceruledge, and more would see less usage - as a large reason these Pokémon rose up was to fulfill a void left behind by Moon. Moon may be more easily dealt with alone than the the aforementioned mons are in combination with one another. But at the same time dd mons like Moon are annoying to contain asw. We'll probably see more usage of mons like Garg, Corv, Weavile, Tera Fairy Bolt to contain it like the previous Moon meta.
I think my worry is that - now that the cat is out of the bag & players have been running mons like Cress, Ledge, etc. that Moon will not sufficiently dissuade their usage if it is re-added to the metagame.
Idk, Hard to say how it will affect the metagame. I imagine many cheesers that rose up post Moon like Zarude, Cress, Ceruledge, and more would see less usage - as a large reason these Pokémon rose up was to fulfill a void left behind by Moon. Moon may be more easily dealt with alone than the the aforementioned mons are in combination with one another. But at the same time dd mons like Moon are annoying to contain asw. We'll probably see more usage of mons like Garg, Corv, Weavile, Tera Fairy Bolt to contain it like the previous Moon meta.
I think my worry is that - now that the cat is out of the bag & players have been running mons like Cress, Ledge, etc. that Moon will not sufficiently dissuade their usage if it is re-added to the metagame.
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2700109580-ygej77qppysfvfyqu8ltgca7s5l0vdlpw
I don't even know what this one was.
I don't even know what this one was.
Quick Claw and King's Rock should still not be allowed in competitive formats. I have held this stance for years and I understand the logistical hurdles people bring up, but my god we are missing the mark by so much.
Its funny you brought up Quick Claw cause…
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2700128111-wcf006xd4su7kdu250f0wpo58x2du1xpw?p2
You know you can qb it. Right?
yo theres four weeks left of scl chill chill