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Xerneas has always felt like a very intentional inclusion to the franchise for me in the sense that it’s clear it and Yveltal were design to help try and balance out the restricted metagames of competitive play. Think about it- before Gen 6, what were the main two Types people thought about when they thought about big, powerful Ubers-tier Pokémon? That’s right- Psychic and Dragon. The problem begins with Xerneas’s base stats and Geomancy not exactly looking like the kind of thing that would synergize well together. If anything, something that boosts Attack, Special Attack, Speed would have made more sense on paper (think Shell Smash but with different flavor), at least to me. The other issue from a balance perspective is that Xerneas also has the typing advantage over the Pokémon that was meant to balance out the Ubers Psychic-Types, while itself still replicating the niche Psychics used to have of being the game’s primary check to Fighting-Types. Instead, we get what’s basically better Quiver Dance on Power Herb variants that turns Xerneas into a hyper offense stole rather than the bulky offensive utility role you would expect to see from the so-called Life Pokémon.
The end result of Geomancy’s design as a move in combination with Xerneas’s already existing traits is a centralizing metagame force that warped the game around itself. In fact, I can’t remember who first said this, but if anything it would make more sense for their roles in competitive to be flipped and Yveltal to be known as the more aggressive one. At least in casual play and single player environments these issues aren’t nearly as significant. I really respect the different angle Game Freak was going for with this duo and while I think they completely dropped the ball on Zygarde in Kalos specifically (the whole Cells concept makes more biological sense in a climate like Alola’s anyway), I just wish their first attempt at a Fairy-Type legendary wasn’t this weird clash between historic lore inspirations and a misguided competitive mindset.
Although, now that I think about it, since I wasn’t around here until after the XY Xerneas controversy largely subsided, I have to wonder how often people ran Close Combat on Geomancy or Choice sets. I would imagine Focus Blast was more common, but CC would have had the advantage of being a physical move with the better accuracy, which I feel like would have given it a niche for stronger special walls and more consistent Steel coverage like some kind of 3DS take on Iron Valiant.
There is the Kyogre-shaped elephant in the room, and Gamefreak weirdly slowed on Dragon Ubers after Fairies came into the series, only having Zygarde, Ultra Necrozma, and Eternatus as big names until SV's duo after 3 consecutive generations of prominent Dragon Legends/Ubers (Rayquaza, the Soul Dew Latis, Creation Trio, Tao trio).
That said, something I find interesting along this idea of Bulky offense focus as a thought experiment, is HOW they seemed to approach the two mons. Xerneas and Yveltal have identical BSTs, leaving it to type and Movepool to define and differentiate their roles relative to each other. Xerneas actually does have a larger number of non-offense focused moves, relevant or not, such as Light Screen, Aromatherapy, and Misty Terrain, as well as moves to empower itself rather than breakdown the opponent such as Psych Up, Horn Leech, and its signature Geomancy. Yveltal meanwhile is mostly attack focused level up moves, with even its few utility-focused moves being dedicated to inhibiting the opponent's actions with Taunt, Disable, and Snarl's debuff.
In practice, Yveltal actually has the more defensive lean between Roost and Oblivion Wing having a Drain effect, the latter being the STAB not matching Yveltal's Aura boost for damage vs Xerneas's Moonblast (given it has a single STAB). Dark Aura benefits it on moves that it can either use without investing (Dark STAB into a Meta with Ghost/Psychic staples like Necrozma or Calyrex) or even Foul Play, a move that specifically favors use by Bulky Tanks that can take hits from the high ATK they "steal" for it. Xerneas meanwhile ends up playing offensive because its utility options don't really DO anything once it has them up, since you'd usually do it in service of an offense focused partner, rather than just building Xerneas to do that in the first place.
Heck, Xerneas has two very viable boosting options in Calm Mind and Geomancy, while Yveltal only gets Hone Claws, incompatible with its Oblivion Wing STABs (though ironically works with its more utility/counter Playstyle using Sucker Punch and Knock Off later), which is even more curious because compared to the mix of Phys/Spe on Yveltal's level-up moves, Xerneas is almost ALL physical that those boosts would not impact (granted the one Special move is the only one it needs). It makes me almost wonder how Xerneas would have functioned if you reversed that paradigm: If its Fairy STAB was physical like Play Rough to match things like Close Combat and Megahorn, but it could go with a narrower Special movepool to capitalize on Geomancy using Gleam (instead of the strong ST Moonblast option) and a few bits such as Psyshock and Focus Blast.
It's interesting to see the dynamic in practice where not just Xerneas, but BOTH mons were clearly designed for the Playstyle that the other fell into once they met gameplay proper. It makes me wonder if this completely slipped the designers' notice on paper, or if the idea was to give them some side options that ended up defining their roles because they were just better at those particular kits.
For a mon that like Xerneas that uses attacks to deal damage, probably not. But I really don't think that Toxapex having 10 more Attack than SpA is why its stats are considered heavily optimized for its role.
I'm gonna die on the hill that Hugh's theme was based on the Johto National Park theme, just vastly sped up and made much more upbeat. Makes sense why the devs would do that, because both Johto and Unova were designed as foils/counterparts to Kanto in different ways.
So the recent thread about looking back at the Shigeru Ohmori era (Gens 7-9) had me thinking, but basically the mainline Pokémon series across the nine generations has been under the leadership of three different directors. Gens 1 and 2 were directed by Satoshi Tajiri, the founder of the franchise; Gens 3, 4, 5, and 6 were directed by Junichi Masuda and had a particular formula that RS, DP, BW, and XY followed; and Gens 7, 8, and 9 were directed by Shigeru Ohmori and have been the most deviant from the previous formula thus far.
But underneath the gameplay and design similarities, I'm personally somewhat intrigued by the commonalities of the monster designs themselves over the years and under the three directors. With starters, many people have had differing opinions on the older starters being more monster- or animal-like as opposed to the newer starters being more humanoid or anthropomorphic. But I think each of the three directors' sets of games has a general throughline being kept across the designs of the Pokemon, particularly the starters and legendaries, that I think is worth looking into.
First, there's the Satoshi Tajiri Era, consisting of the original Kanto and Johto games, Pokemon Red and Green/Blue and Gold and Silver (and Crystal).
Early Pokémon was, bar none, the most "monster-collecting RPG" esque kind of Pokémon game, akin to the monster RPGs of the 80s and 90s like Megami Tensei and Dragon Quest.
Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise have the most monster-like designs, as do Meganium, Typhlosion, and Feraligatr. All six of them are fairly simple and animalistic monsters in a way. Blastoise has a pair of cannons but it's still very much recognizably a turtle monster.
Mewtwo, Lugia, and Ho-oh seem to be a case of one individual: Mewtwo is artificial while Lugia and Ho-oh aren't, and the latter two are worshipped as deities in Ecruteak City, but they're individuals who are somewhat enigmatic and very powerful, but generally stay away from human contact. They do show themselves to Trainers with a strong heart in-universe: they're strong, but not so strong that they are beyond being under a Trainer.
Then, there's the Junichi Masuda era, which is basically in a way also kind of the most iconic.
Here we can see something...more different under Junichi Masuda.
The final form starters are still more monster-like, but cross the line between being animalistic and somewhat anthropomorphic. Torterra is perhaps the most animalistic of the lot, but the point stands. Unlike their Kanto and Johto predecessors, these four starter trios have a larger-than-life, fantastical presence that leans into a more high-fantasy character setting, especially the Sinnoh, Unova, and Kalos starters. Sceptile, Blaziken, and Swampert lean a bit on the simple side but have more human capabilities: Sceptile can slash things with its leaf blades like a sword, Blaziken excels in kicking, and Swampert has excellent physical strength and can throw nasty punches like a heavyweight fighter. Torterra, Infernape, and Empoleon have a more myth/legend based sort of presence, with the World Turtle, Sun Wukong, and Napoleon Bonaparte being imbued into their designs (and in Empoleon's case, name). Serperior, Emboar, and Samurott are warriors, based on the Rose de Versailles (French), Zhang Fei (Chinese), and samurai (Japanese). Chesnaught, Delphox, and Greninja are based on RPG classes. Chesnaught is the heavyweight armored warrior, Delphox is a mage, and Greninja is a thief/assassin. They lean into that sort of high fantasy, almost DnD like world character design in a way.
The legendaries also lean into the sort of fantastical vibe Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, and Kalos have. They're in a way of a grander scale than Mewtwo, Lugia, and Ho-oh: they're practically forces of nature with godlike domain over them. Kyogre and Groudon have the power to expand the sea and the land respectively. Dialga and Palkia have domain over time and space themselves. Reshiram and Zekrom are said to be the ones who forged Unova and embody truth and ideals alongside a hero. Xerneas represents life, Yveltal represents destruction. The third legendaries have a relation to them and all four of Rayquaza, Giratina, Kyurem, and Zygarde are incidentally Dragon-types.
And then there's the latest era, the Shigeru Ohmori era, which has the "modern" design ethos most people know and have varying opinions on.
And the latest three generations. This is where the real "anthropomorphic/humanoid starters" era is, and the three starter trios that lean into it.
Namely, you can see with the final forms of all three of the Alola, Galar, and Paldea starters that they fully lean into being anthropomorphic in design and appearance, but also...they're characters. They're not monsters like the first two generations, and they're not quite the same kind of DnD fantastical that the Hoenn/Sinnoh/Unova/Kalos trios are. They're almost human-like and have distinct abilities tying them to human professions or performance in a way. Decidueye, Incineroar, and Primarina are an archer, heel wrestler, and songstress, respectively. Rillaboom, Cinderace, and Inteleon are a drummer, a football (soccer) player, and a sniper. And Meowscarada, Skeledirge, and Quaquaval are a magician (illusionist/trickster), a singer, and a dancer. They're not fully old school monsters or fantastical warriors, they're pop culture performers and in a way...anime characters.
The same goes with the legendaries. The designs aren't humanoid but while they're powerful, they're not forces of nature like the cover legendaries of Masuda's era. Well, Necrozma, Eternatus, and Terapagos perhaps are. They're the harbingers of the energy that led to the formation of Z-Moves, Dynamax, and Terastal respectively. But the main two cover legends in each case...are more meant to be relatable characters instead of forces of nature. Solgaleo or Lunala are Nebby in Alola, who you spend the game bonding with through Lillie. Zacian and Zamazenta don't show up until late in the game but they're warriors who you and Hop fight alongside as comrades, and later they join you and Hop on your adventures. And Koraidon or Miraidon shows up at the beginning of the game and you bond with it while having it serve as your ride Pokémon while helping it regain its powers.
Perhaps I'm looking a bit too much into it but I feel like there's a throughline being kept through multiple generations apiece under the leadership of the same director in each case. I am not sure if I'd say this throughline in design ethos applies to the regular Pokemon outside the starters and legendaries, but they are definitely the strongest cases of a throughline across Tajiri, Masuda, and Ohmori apiece.
Now I wonder if things might change again in Winds and Waves next year. That depends on if Ohmori is still at the helm but if it's not him at the helm for WiWa, then maybe the final forms of Browt, Pombon, and Gecqua will head in another new direction, one different from the trios we've been seeing the past three generations. Same with the cover legendaries...I do wonder how they'll incorporate "winds" and "waves" here in such a case.
But the main two cover legends in each case...are more meant to be relatable characters instead of forces of nature. Solgaleo or Lunala are Nebby in Alola, who you spend the game bonding with through Lillie. Zacian and Zamazenta don't show up until late in the game but they're warriors who you and Hop fight alongside as comrades, and later they join you and Hop on your adventures. And Koraidon or Miraidon shows up at the beginning of the game and you bond with it while having it serve as your ride Pokémon while helping it regain its powers.
It’s not to the same extent as Nebby or the bikes, but I think it’s worth noting that Zacian and Zamazenta do show up at the beginning of the game, when you and Hop venture into the Slumbering Weald. They just have less of a presence between then and the climax because the story is about uncovering their lost history. But the basic idea of seeding a connection between the player and the cover Legendary at the start of the game is still there.
Perhaps I'm looking a bit too much into it but I feel like there's a throughline being kept through multiple generations apiece under the leadership of the same director in each case. I am not sure if I'd say this throughline in design ethos applies to the regular Pokemon outside the starters and legendaries, but they are definitely the strongest cases of a throughline across Tajiri, Masuda, and Ohmori apiece.
Now I wonder if things might change again in Winds and Waves next year. That depends on if Ohmori is still at the helm but if it's not him at the helm for WiWa, then maybe the final forms of Browt, Pombon, and Gecqua will head in another new direction, one different from the trios we've been seeing the past three generations. Same with the cover legendaries...I do wonder how they'll incorporate "winds" and "waves" here in such a case.
No, you definitely have a point, and the throughlines with the different directors don't stop there. The story structures are particularly similar too. It's late so I'll circle back to this with more thoughts but yes, you are right to notice these parallels.
Small addendum-while Tajiri is credited as the director for GSC, and the original game concept was certainly his, Masuda took over mid-development for Gold and Silver so gen 2 was also, in part, the Masuda era. Gen 3 was when he fully took the helm though, and I would say that's my overall favorite so far if we're going off of eras like this.
While Ohmori developed the initial game concept for Winds and Waves all the way back in 2021, he is not directing the games. It's a new duo of directors who worked on the SwSh and SV DLC. So also yes, I think we will see a change in direction re: starters, legendaries, and story to some degree. The first stage of the starters already feel indicative of this, if I'm being honest.
Small addendum-while Tajiri is credited as the director for GSC, and the original game concept was certainly his, Masuda took over mid-development for Gold and Silver so gen 2 was also, in part, the Masuda era. Gen 3 was when he fully took the helm though, and I would say that's my overall favorite so far if we're going off of eras like this.
Related to this, I think it bears observing that Masuda has remained an influential figure throughout Ohmori’s years as director in a way that Tajiri wasn’t for Masuda’s years as director. Masuda still served as a hands-on producer for lots of Gen 7-9 games, still went out and did press tours with Ohmori, and was able to give direct insight about the design objectives and ideas of each game when asked about them in interviews. It’s easy to stake out the differences between their respective approaches, but I think there is still a lot of shared DNA as well. For instance, regional super mechanics originated in X & Y, and it’s hard to say from the outside whether the subsequent decision to make sure every Pokémon had access to Z/Dyna/Tera was a matter of directorship differences or simply a response to peoples’ complaints about Mega Evolution being limited to so few Pokémon.
Using Satoshi Tajiri era as any semblance of an example is weird because it was a very freeform era. There was no "Mr. Satoshi Tajiri what should the starters look like," it was "Hey we don't know how the fuck to draw cute Pokemon let's get someone else to draw them based on a few traits. And then Sugimori will polish the designs up later"
this isn't even really speculation this is just known
like keep in mind blastoise and squirtle weren't even going to be part of the same line at first
cyndaquil was also a random hedgehog Pokemon that was reworked into a fire type and fire starter, it was designed essentially entirely independently of the concept of a "starter"
lugia was not even designed by anyone working at game freak, iirc, it was the movie producer and then they were like alright lets make it the second version, since we already have Ho-Oh
The same goes with the legendaries. The designs aren't humanoid but while they're powerful, they're not forces of nature like the cover legendaries of Masuda's era. Well, Necrozma, Eternatus, and Terapagos perhaps are. They're the harbingers of the energy that led to the formation of Z-Moves, Dynamax, and Terastal respectively. But the main two cover legends in each case...are more meant to be relatable characters instead of forces of nature. Solgaleo or Lunala are Nebby in Alola, who you spend the game bonding with through Lillie. Zacian and Zamazenta don't show up until late in the game but they're warriors who you and Hop fight alongside as comrades, and later they join you and Hop on your adventures. And Koraidon or Miraidon shows up at the beginning of the game and you bond with it while having it serve as your ride Pokémon while helping it regain its powers.
what you're seeing isn't actually very related to Ohmori but rather the entire brand shift towards well, I don't know how else to say it, The Furry Side of the IP.
Instead of thinking about it as strictly legendaries, think about it as Pokemon that are actual named characters. Starting in ORAS we have the costume Pikachu (Which is very furry frankly). Then we have Pokemon Go which ended up having costumed Pokemon as events. Sun and Moon has Nebby as an actual character.
Sword and Shield DLC has Calyrex who actually talks to you. Urshifu is also basically a Character. Legends Arceus has Arceus obviously. Scarlet and Violet bikes, the Loyal Trio, Ogerpon and Pecharunt as basically full-on characters. Legends ZA has Floette.
What do we know about Winds and Waves? Not much officially, except literally two outright-specially-named Mr. and Ms. Pikachus, who are in fact the first thing we ever saw related to Gen 10. The website for WIWA also pushes them hard.
In the non-mainline sense, things have gotten pretty insanely forward in this direction. Pokemon Unite has a Maid Glaceon skin for fucks sake. The TCG keeps printing the same popular Pokemon which often are that. TCG Pocket had a point in their recent expansion trailer where they linger on specifically Mega Gardevoir and Mega Lucario full-art cards on screen at the same time.
Pokopia took up PMD's mantle, and is basically all about talking Pokemon living in human-pokemon fusiony ways.
If you look at how the series has started moving in the last 10 years, the mainline series is just trailing behind the brand-wide trend of making Pokemon more of actual characters, rather than a human world where Pokemon are just part of the power fantasy. I don't think this is actually to do with Ohmori's directing style at all.
There's another benefit to this from the company POV which is that it explicitly makes the brand less reliant on new games and new Pokemon to print stuff. Instead they can sell out of $400 life-sized Sylveon plushies forever and make kazillions of dollars.
If anything is the change in Game Freak, it's probably like a lot of other changes, the newer staff members that grew up with Pokemon, which often means the anime, where this has already somewhat been the status quo for a long time. The mainline games before SM basically have Pokemon as props, and now we are just seeing that shift.
It's just easy to make the Legendary Pokemon into plot relevant characters.
TLDR: In my opinion the changes in mainline regarding how Pokemon are depicted are actually just the game's catching up a bit to the brandwide shift towards Pokemon as individuals, characters, and frankly furrybait as well. Additionally, trying to make rhyme or reason out of Gen 1/2 Pokemon is a bit odd because there was no "standardized process" like Hoenn and above had, they really were just Doing Shit and seeing what stuck.
TLDR: In my opinion the changes in mainline regarding how Pokemon are depicted are actually just the game's catching up a bit to the brandwide shift towards Pokemon as individuals, characters, and frankly furrybait as well. Additionally, trying to make rhyme or reason out of Gen 1/2 Pokemon is a bit odd because there was no "standardized process" like Hoenn and above had, they really were just Doing Shit and seeing what stuck.
I think it's also true that Game Freak was just kind of doing what they wanted in the first two gens before settling on a more definitive formula for the series (you could really argue this to be the case for the whole franchise), but I think at the very least, it's true that there was a design philosophy that has changed over time. Every video game has one to some degree. There's also auteur to consider with different directors and series producers. Both can be true.
I would say one example of this with gens 1 and 2 that contrasts with the rest of the series is that the legendary Pokémon are all optional encounters that you need to go out of your way for. Which I think I actually prefer. HGSS changed their box legendary encounters to make it more like RSE and DPPT's, which wasn't terrible but I do really like legendaries being optional secrets (though Lugia was added *very* late in GS's development so the small presence of Lugia and Ho-Oh may be due to that). I guess we still get both in most games anyway thanks to "sub-legendaries" like the Tapus in Alola or the Treasures of Ruin in Paldea. Gens 1 and 2 also have much simpler stories and they seem to want you to imagine your own story with the team you decide to build. There's also a lot more environmental storytelling in the early gens, which GF clearly has a knack for. This is still present in the newer gens, it just tends to be more spelled out than it used to be.
Re: Lugia, while I'm not sure it's known for sure who designed it, it's safe to assume it was someone at Game Freak. Possibly Ken Sugimori. There's a common misconception that Takeshi Shudo, the original head of the anime, created Lugia, but he never took credit for this. A friend of mine who's extensively researched the production side of the anime has a good thread here:
I'm really not sure the Pokémon brand is specifically aiming to make furbait but I also can't say that they definitively aren't either. There's definitely a natural appeal to that crowd that the series has lol.
Related to this, I think it bears observing that Masuda has remained an influential figure throughout Ohmori’s years as director in a way that Tajiri wasn’t for Masuda’s years as director. Masuda still served as a hands-on producer for lots of Gen 7-9 games, still went out and did press tours with Ohmori, and was able to give direct insight about the design objectives and ideas of each game when asked about them in interviews. It’s easy to stake out the differences between their respective approaches, but I think there is still a lot of shared DNA as well. For instance, regional super mechanics originated in X & Y, and it’s hard to say from the outside whether the subsequent decision to make sure every Pokémon had access to Z/Dyna/Tera was a matter of directorship differences or simply a response to peoples’ complaints about Mega Evolution being limited to so few Pokémon.
Yeah, Masuda really shaped a large swathe of the Pokémon series. Winds and Waves will be the first new generation to presumably not have any of Masuda's direct involvement outside of maybe some of the new tracks, so that'll also be interesting. Ohmori will certainly continue to have influence on the series for a while to come though, in some ways more so than he previously did. He's not my favorite creative at Game Freak (far from it in fact) but he very much stuck the landing with Pokopia at least. Pokopia was largely his idea. It could be his ideas just need proper dev time to flesh out lol.
I'm really not sure the Pokémon brand is specifically aiming to make furbait but I also can't say that they definitively aren't either. There's definitely a natural appeal to that crowd that the series has lol.
(i didnt even know they made a lucario one now thats crazy lmfao)
also pre-emptive note someone could argue that eeveelutions are just generally popular, and that is kind of true esp. for the TCG, but also the only reason $400 sylveon and umbreon plushies are selling that well is for a reason lets be fr!
1/3rd of the Pokopia DLC that costs $35 is the ability to put accessories on the Pokemon
i mean fucking frankly just look at this thumbnail lmao this is the official pokemon channel
now a skeptic could say this is all coincidence and that these are broadly popular concepts, which I think there is some merit to. but the series is getting definitively more furry and that's just the business baby, and I don't think mainline Pokemon ramping up centering the Pokemon more coinciding with these things is a coincidence
Yes, there's certainly been an influx of dress-up features in newer Pokémon games. What's funny is that apparently there used to be a strict "no clothing on Pokémon" policy for mainline games....outside of the side modes where you strictly do that. They brainstormed adding a permanent dress-up feature to SM but didn't go through with it.
Supposedly we'll be able to dress up Pokémon in Winds and Waves, though this feature may have been siphoned off to Pokopia and Windy/Wavychu.
as a furry i dont think putting accessories on pokemon is intrisincally furry, but its kinda on a venn diagram? obviously, furries will naturally gravitate towards it, but it is a practice that has been popular forever with humans. we love decorating animals like little dollies, we love decorating in general!
i dont think the franchise is getting furryfied, i think its getting mascotified (well, it has been but you get me). Where everything is your cute dolly/your awesome action figure and you can play with it as you please. this of course is money making for furries, but i dont think we're the main market here. we're considered, furries are definitely known, but i think thats just part of making something mass appeal, right?
Re: Lugia, while I'm not sure it's known for sure who designed it, it's safe to assume it was someone at Game Freak. Possibly Ken Sugimori. There's a common misconception that Takeshi Shudo, the original head of the anime, created Lugia, but he never took credit for this. A friend of mine who's extensively researched the production side of the anime has a good thread here:
Based on the linked thread, I think we can presume Sugimori designed Lugia based on his discussions with Shudo. So Shudo, while not the primary creator of the design, did contribute to the process in a notable fashion.
as a furry i dont think putting accessories on pokemon is intrisincally furry, but its kinda on a venn diagram? obviously, furries will naturally gravitate towards it, but it is a practice that has been popular forever with humans. we love decorating animals like little dollies, we love decorating in general!
i dont think the franchise is getting furryfied, i think its getting mascotified (well, it has been but you get me). Where everything is your cute dolly/your awesome action figure and you can play with it as you please. this of course is money making for furries, but i dont think we're the main market here. we're considered, furries are definitely known, but i think thats just part of making something mass appeal, right?
i can see this argument but maid costume glaceon is where i draw the line
On a more serious note, on one hand yes, but on the other I think a good amount of this stuff you only go for as a company to target the whales.
And you know what related group has a has a suspicious amount of wealth.
Really though, sure. "Being considered" xould be a fair way to describe this phenomenon. But I think it is absolutely "being considered" a good amount more than the average person would expect.
i can see this argument but maid costume glaceon is where i draw the line
On a more serious note, on one hand yes, but on the other I think a good amount of this stuff you only go for as a company to target the whales.
And you know what related group has a has a suspicious amount of wealth.
Really though, sure. "Being considered" xould be a fair way to describe this phenomenon. But I think it is absolutely "being considered" a good amount more than the average person would expect.
i can see this argument but maid costume glaceon is where i draw the line
On a more serious note, on one hand yes, but on the other I think a good amount of this stuff you only go for as a company to target the whales.
And you know what related group has a has a suspicious amount of wealth.
Really though, sure. "Being considered" xould be a fair way to describe this phenomenon. But I think it is absolutely "being considered" a good amount more than the average person would expect.
oh for sure, I think pokemon is very aware of its furry and furry-leaning fans in much bigger ways than other franchises. Sure its just That Big, but i wouldn't be surprised if pokemon had one of the largest %s of furry fans compared to other mascot-esque brands like sanrio.
I think they just approach it by including furries in "how to make things have mass appeal", rather than cater to us directly. Its a kinda blurry distinction though
I don't think Pokemon is appealing to furries with their human-like mons, no matter what memes about Incineroar might say. I think they're just shortcutting "make this a marketable anime char". If it appeals to furries, sure, but I think they've decided that humans are easier to sell than animals, so their big names need to have human elements.
I don't think Pokemon is appealing to furries with their human-like mons, no matter what memes about Incineroar might say. I think they're just shortcutting "make this a marketable anime char". If it appeals to furries, sure, but I think they've decided that humans are easier to sell than animals, so their big names need to have human elements.
this misses the point entirely because actually its the eeveelutions that are more popular with furries, anyways
bakugames' point (Which is pretty fair) is kinda just that a lot of the mascot pokemon work at both creating nicher products that are for furry whales, while they still also work for general audiences as well
this isnt actually why i came back to the thread though, i remembered another example of "Pokemon games starting to treat Pokemon more like actual characters" is in USUM, where your starter Pokemon will come out of its ball on its own at the pokemon league for a little moment
im actually surprised that hasnt become a reoccurring part of the series since it seems pretty easy and like a slam dunk on this front
I don't think most people know what appeals to furries, tbh. Incineroar isn't even overly popular with furries compared to the other guys, it's mostly reserved to the bara furry community and doesn't cross it over that often.
There's the idea that what appeals to furries will be an anthropomorphic guy who looks like they could wear clothes, but its much more about the setting. Pokemon appeals to furries because its a world where being one of the creatures seems cool and desirable (they even made a game about this). Once you have that set dressing, then furries will latch on familiar things such as canines and felines, dragons etc. If you look at fur affinity numbers, "non-furry" pokemon like arcanine, persian, charizard, dragonite, etc will often be as popular if not more popular than "furry" pokemon. This is because to the furry, the step on being on two legs is completely unnecessary for the appeal.
This is also why I argue pokemon is well aware of furries (we're not really a niche deviant group anymore, we're a large deviant group lol), but knows that the direction of the brand accomodates for them well enough to not need direct callouts
Personally I feel like Mimikyu is kind of the poster child for the “Pokémon as characters” phenomenon. Like, it’s kind of hard to believe that “Pikachu envy” specifically is a species-wide trait, and that all Mimikyu, either collectively or convergently, decided to fashion identical Pikachu costumes for themselves. It’s framed more as an individual story, where this one hideously eldritch Pokémon wanted to be loved and got jealous toward another Pokémon that had lots of adoration, and decided to imitate it.
Interestingly though, I think there are roots of this approach all the way back in Gen 1, with Cubone. Even setting aside the fridge logic of how breeding works vis-à-vis wearing your dead (but very observably not dead) mother’s skull, Cubone in Gen 1 is narrativized in a way that makes it story seem much more like that of an individual upon whom tragedy befell rather than a species with a strange behavioral quirk. This Cubone’s mother was killed by Team Rocket, so it wears its mother’s skull to remember her by.
(bit of a generalization but) i think the nature of yokai stories is very individualized, but theyre still used as "species" a lot in old and new works, so i feel like its not as much of a dissonance over there, compared to a lot of western folk tales where its about One Thing. just the one. no one else
Personally I feel like Mimikyu is kind of the poster child for the “Pokémon as characters” phenomenon. Like, it’s kind of hard to believe that “Pikachu envy” specifically is a species-wide trait, and that all Mimikyu, either collectively or convergently, decided to fashion identical Pikachu costumes for themselves. It’s framed more as an individual story, where this one hideously eldritch Pokémon wanted to be loved and got jealous toward another Pokémon that had lots of adoration, and decided to imitate it.
Interestingly though, I think there are roots of this approach all the way back in Gen 1, with Cubone. Even setting aside the fridge logic of how breeding works vis-à-vis wearing your dead (but very observably not dead) mother’s skull, Cubone in Gen 1 is narrativized in a way that makes it story seem much more like that of an individual upon whom tragedy befell rather than a species with a strange behavioral quirk. This Cubone’s mother was killed by Team Rocket, so it wears its mother’s skull to remember her by.
I think it depends. In the SM anime, Team Rocket's Mimikyu is very much like this, but Acerola's doesn't seem to have a grudge with Pikachu at all. I could have that wrong though, I haven't actually watched most of the SM anime (regrettably)
