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Announcement NP: The Edge of Glory - Champions OU Suspect Test

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a_shiny_hydrapple said:
still no reqs, but I'm leaning ban. Ceaseless Edge is a ridiculous move in COU. Yes we have Rocky Helmet. Yes we have a lot of offensive things that deal with Samurott. But this move is just that strong, that it hardly matters if Samurott has a lot of answers.

Samurott isn't Ogerpon-Hearthflame. We aren't suspecting it for breaking balance, it's for Ceaseless Edge.


If we get Boots or better hazard removal, we can retest Samurott. For now, it's probably unhealthy.
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Can you please explain how Ceaseless Edge makes Hisuian Samurott ban worthy. All you've just said is why you want to ban Hisuian Samurott but never explain how Ceaseless Edge is a bad or explain in further depth how Hisuian Samurott interacts with the metagame. Literally 95% of the tier can offensively pressure hisuian samurott so it doesn't set up 3 spikes and the spikes can be removed by corviknight or excadrill which are very common in the tier once hisuian samurott is on the field. Unless your team is made of 6 cosmogs then this is not a hard task to do
 
on the topic of complex bans, in gen 8 fishious rend was very obviously what made dracovish broken, but dracovish itself was still banned because arctovish having the same move wasn’t broken

in gen 9 annihilape was treated the same way with rage fist, as primeape wasn’t broken with it, so annihilape was banned rather than the move

last respects is a bit different here because once basculegion became available, it was clear the move itself was broken across multiple users. houndstone was actually banned first when it was the only relevant user, then last respects was banned later once there was enough evidence that the move itself was the problem

so unless ceaseless edge is shown to be broken regardless of who is using it (which is impossible as of now, since samurott is the only pokemon that can use the move) the usual tiering approach would be to act on samurott rather than try to save samurott by removing one of the main things that defines it
 
OatIsHere said:
Can you please explain how Ceaseless Edge makes Hisuian Samurott ban worthy. All you've just said is why you want to ban Hisuian Samurott but never explain how Ceaseless Edge is a bad or explain in further depth how Hisuian Samurott interacts with the metagame. Literally 95% of the tier can offensively pressure hisuian samurott so it doesn't set up 3 spikes and the spikes can be removed by corviknight or excadrill which are very common in the tier once hisuian samurott is on the field. Unless your team is made of 6 cosmogs then this is not a hard task to do
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It doesn't need to set up 3 layers of Spikes. It can set up 1 and already be threatening!

As I've said before, why can't hazard stack teams just pair Samu with Staraptor-Mega to punish Corviknight, or run a Ghost type to punish Excadrill?

Hazard stacks probably won't let you remove them without getting punished for it, and that can't be healthy in a Boots-less format like COU.

If we aren't banning Staraptor, let's at least ban Samurott.
 
a_shiny_hydrapple said:
It doesn't need to set up 3 layers of Spikes. It can set up 1 and already be threatening!

As I've said before, why can't hazard stack teams just pair Samu with Staraptor-Mega to punish Corviknight, or run a Ghost type to punish Excadrill?

Hazard stacks probably won't let you remove them without getting punished for it, and that can't be healthy in a Boots-less format like COU.

If we aren't banning Staraptor, let's at least ban Samurott
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why is hisuian samurott setting up 1 spike warranting its ban? This 1 Spike that is easily removable by Corviknight which completely hard walls Mega Staraptor and can Defog on so many other teammates. so we clearly have no idea what we are talking about

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if you look at every single one of these teams, you can see that all of these have ways to circumventing hisuian samurott whether thats a hard counter (hisuian decidueye), a good check+corviknight, or they just do not care about that 1 Spike. All of these teams can also just destroy hrott without letting it get that 3 turns of free ceaseless edge spamming.

Ok setting up that 1 Spike sure thats 12% of HP gone, but is this actually a bad thing? Not only is there plenty of removal to make this not really a challenging issue and offensive pressure so hrott isn't even able to set up many Spikes. If anything Hisuian Samurott being able to set that Spike is good as a progress maker that is splashable on many teams.
 
OatIsHere said:
why is hisuian samurott setting up 1 spike warranting its ban? This 1 Spike that is easily removable by Corviknight which completely hard walls Mega Staraptor and can Defog on so many other teammates. so we clearly have no idea what we are talking about

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if you look at every single one of these teams, you can see that all of these have ways to circumventing hisuian samurott whether thats a hard counter (hisuian decidueye), a good check+corviknight, or they just do not care about that 1 Spike. All of these teams can also just destroy hrott without letting it get that 3 turns of free ceaseless edge spamming.

Ok setting up that 1 Spike sure thats 12% of HP gone, but is this actually a bad thing? Not only is there plenty of removal to make this not really a challenging issue and offensive pressure so hrott isn't even able to set up many Spikes. If anything Hisuian Samurott being able to set that Spike is good as a progress maker that is splashable on many teams.
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What if Samurott Encores Corv? What if it Taunts it? Now what do you do?

What if the issue isn't HRott itself, but the hazard stack cores HRott allows?

This is my point! Not Samurott itself, but what Samurott allows!

There is nothing better than Samurott in this role of setting Spikes. Everything else that sets Spikes is bounced by :Hatterene:.

So, how do we stop the hazard stack?

...By the way, you all know every suspect tested mon had answers right? That isn't a reason to keep it by itself, it just means it shouldn't be quickbanned.
 
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jacko0 said:
Ceaseless Edge is the only problematic part of the Pokemon

And no it wouldn't end up as just a "worse Gambit", its speed tier and access to utility moves like Encore and Taunt would still allow it to punish or stop hazard clear.

Like it would certainly be worse but would still get plenty of use with how empty this tier is
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If only one pokemon gets the move and the move is broken, the pokemon gets banned. (Last Respects Houndstone in SV before Pokemon Home)
If multiple pokemon get the move and one of them is broken with the move, the pokemon gets banned. (Rage Fist Annihilape in SV compared to Primeape)
If multiple pokemon get the move and it's broken on all of them, the move gets banned. (Last Respects in SV Post Home)
 
a_shiny_hydrapple said:
What if Samurott Encores Corv? What if it Taunts it? Now what do you do?

What if the issue isn't HRott itself, but the hazard stack cores HRott allows?

This is my point! Not Samurott itself, but what Samurott allows!

There is nothing better than Samurott in this role of setting Spikes. Everything else that sets Spikes is bounced by :Hatterene:.

So, how do we stop the hazard stack?

...By the way, you all know every suspect tested mon had answers right? That isn't a reason to keep it by itself, it just means it shouldn't be quickbanned.
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Brother you have been over 25% of the messages in this entire thread as someone who opened by saying they aren't good enough to get reqs and are arguing with multiple people who have. Not to say you can't have thoughts on things but like, consider why the people who are voting dnb are voting dnb. Telling someone a rott can run encore or taunt to make corv a less strict defog answer is somewhat moot because anyone worth half their salt is taking into account the fact that rott can (and frequently does!) run encore or taunt and is making their decisions in game with that in mind.

For my thoughts on the suspect, I'm like 70-30 DNB-Ban. We'll see if I get a good enough run going, but I'm mostly of the opinion that this is more a Lando T situation than, idk, any broken situation. Samurott is amazing and many, many teams will be better with it on the team, but I see this more as centralization due to a mon that has many useful factors to patch up holes in teambulding while being good rather than it being broken. In M-C alone we've gotten Rilla (and by extension any Grassy Seed user to complement it), Cinderace (can swap spikes back/force the other player to be less gung ho about hazard setting and outspeed non scarf sets able to either kill or burn the rott), Rocky Helmet as an item, and Pawmot.

Rott places a ton of pressure on the opponent, but it DOES have flat out defensive answers like Mega Meg, Hisidueye, Primarina, and Quaquaval alongside being not particularly hard to answer offensively. It also lacks any recovery, so a Rott user will almost certainly just be letting it die to get up its bones or, if trying to preserve it, causing it to take consistent chip over the course of the match.
 
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https://pokepast.es/d020f75a5d0084ea ok this is a hard copy and paste of what oat posted but this team is broken as fuck on ladder, smokes all the goofy webs and rain teams running around ~1300s, shoutouts bulky glimm eating +2 polter from ceru (somehow) that one time

Anyways I think its pretty obvious that Hisuian Samurott just isn't broken, there are way too many easy checks to it that every team can slap on with ease, and people only think its broken because they pretend it can use 3 different sets at once. The only set that is remotely "OP" is the bulky Swords Dance Taunt/Encore variant, but even then this set just gets out-offensed so hard by mons like Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Rillaboom, Dragonite, etc. This tier is too offensive and fast-paced for Hisuian Samurott to get 3 layers up, and the prevalence of Glimmora, Corviknight, Excadrill, and even Cinderace just makes this strategy not worth it majority of the time. Even positioning Hisuian Samurott is more obnoxious than it may seem, as Oat said, a lot of the tier can just 2HKO even the bulkier set as it switches in, and a lot of targets such as Galarian Slowking and Aegislash use Colbur Berry to trade with Hisuian Samurott anyways. I wouldn't really say its that centralising either ngl, in CHAMPL there were quite a few teams without Hisuian Samurott on them, even before the Mega Raichu Y ban (btw off-topic but that mon made Hamurott like 10x worse to deal with), and not every team needs the Spikes support to justify using Hisuian Samurott over other Dark-types like Choice Scarf Hydreigon and Mega Absol Z.

Besides, Hisuian Samurott isn't even completely bad for the tier. It helps check all the Fire-types with either Choice Scarf or priority Aqua Jet/Sucker Punch if your Ceruledge. It also helps against Dragapult, Aegislash, Mega Absol Z. Encore + Spikes is great for Kingambit and especially Mega Golisopod, the latter being arguably more broken than Hisuian Samurott is (do not suspect it don't put words in my mouth). Spikes in general are just nice to discourage annoying Hippowdon + Galarian Slowking cores that sit around and stall out turns for nothing, and it helps hinder the longevity of offense mons like Life Orb Blaziken and Dragapult. It's also one of the only actually good Taunt users which is nice too, asides Annihilape.
 
OatIsHere said:
To every ban voter who talks all this hypothetical jerkbait please go on the ladder and show a replay of this hrott nonsense happening. And no I do not want to see any M-B or CHAMPL replays
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The reality is, people keep misplaying the hell out of their matches, so the average Hamurott experience & mentality goes like this (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2707494970), then we have to waste time coiling arbitrary suspects.
 
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Team Used: :Hatterene: :Charizard-Mega-X: :Samurott-Hisui: :Excadrill: :Volcarona: :Pawmot:

This team was partially stolen from one of AxolLokixLover's teams from M-B and I just made it more usable for the current metagame.

Anyway, I'll keep this post short because I think OatIsHere covered a lot of the points that I would have. But I am 100% without a doubt voting DO NOT BAN.

Hisuian Samurott, in the current state of the metagame, is definitely not broken. If we had hosted this suspect during M-B I would have definitely voted ban, but M-C added so many more ways to deal with it that voting ban simply because its "broken" would make no sense.

We had 3 new base Pokemon added (:cinderace: :rillaboom: :pawmot:) all of which are very viable on a wide variety of team styles and can easily deal with Hisuian Samurott. We also got 2 new megas that Samurott doesn't like to see (:garchomp-mega-z: :golisopod-mega:) which are both very common and splashable in a variety of teamstyles. 2 new items (:rocky-helmet: :air-balloon:) have helped manage Samurott as helm can chip Hamu down very quickly, while balloon has made spinners like :excadrill: and much easier to use while also giving :cinderace: viability.

Additionally, the tier has seen the rise of certain Pokemon that counter Hisuian Samurott. :Clefable: picked up in usage during CHAMPL and has been a very strong counter to Samurott (I also encourage people to start running helm on Clef since it helps actually apply pressure to Hamu when they can just switch in Glowking or Galge). :Hydreigon: has also risen in usage as it can switch into most of Samurott's attacks, apply a lot of pressure with Draco and then be very difficult to switch into safely itself. Not to mention certain megas that have dropped in usage (:Meganium-Mega: :floette-Mega: :Lopunny-Mega:) that make Hisuian Samurott's life difficult and could easily pick up in usage to put it in its place.

Anyway, the point of this post was to show that this tier is equipped with numerous ways to handle Hisuian Samurott and I believe simply banning it because its "too difficult to check" or because its "broken" is not a smart idea. I would encourage you to give some of these options a try before voting ban instead of just relying on your :rocky-helmet: :corviknight: to hopefully do enough damage to it.
 
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I used one of the sample teams in this suspect. Will be Voting Do Not Ban
I personally feel like it is a good pokemon in the tier but it is not inherently broken and can definitely be played around, i used hisuian decidueye which hardwalls it and it is always forced to switch out vs it which allows me to defog on the spikes set by it. I also noticed several other ways such as mega meganium that hardwall hisuian samurott
 
Got reqs two days ago but I kinda kept procrastinating on posting here lol, anyway here's the team I laddered with: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :garchomp: :dragalge-mega: :corviknight: :primarina:

Honestly I just can't buy samurott being broken in this tier. It's top tier for sure, definitively a part of the big four. But I can't see it as broken in a tier where corv is the premier removal option and it very commonly runs helmet. All you have to do is not throw your corviknight into samu head-first and play proactively, have answers to the mon with sd encore and taunt that is not clicking defog. Samu should not be cleaning up entire teams in a tier where garchomp and corviknight are top tier and are commonly running helmet. Spin exca is good removal too especially with balloon but that's a bit more specific. Outside the removal situation, samu as an offensive threat also has quite a few answers, with chomp, corv, rilla, meow, prim, clef, mega pod, mega meganium, mega lop, opposing samu with sacred, mega raptor, mega floette, rotom-w, hydreigon and probably some more I'm forgetting. I think an issue is that people see the spike after samu attacks and just start panicing. Often you can just play even with the layer or two up on your side and still end up winning, this happened multiple times on my reqs run.
I could buy samu being broken in M-B when we didn't have helmet and the meta favoured fewer checks to it, but currently with the M-C pool I just cannot agree with banning this mon, especially since it also provides positives to the metagame in speed control, wall breaking, utility, pivoting, hazards and an offensive check to a slew of threats (metagross, aegislash, blaziken with jet etc).
So I will be voting Do Not Ban
 
https://pokepast.es/aa557aec3a02c120
Mainly use this for req, not good enough but usable I think. Mega clefa can counter hippo and chomp which pawmot don't like.
I will be voting Do Not Ban. We have 5 or 6 strong fairy type (hatterene, primarina, mega floette, mega meganium, clefa&mega), many rocky helmet users(chomp, corviknight, toxapex and decidueye) and some offensive checks(mega pod, pawmot, quaquaval, meow and rilla). It does have many sets but all of them are easy to scout out. In most games u just need to switch in ur rocky helmet user and wait hamu dies itself. Hamu has other shortcomings too, such as accuracy and bad base stats. In a nutshell, it's easy to deal with and we all know how.
 
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Got reqs last night, sloppy run at the start until I figured out the team and then was smooth sailing from about game 20 onwards... if anyone wants the fun paraspam Mega Godtreebel team I did it with see here. But anyway I will be a reluctant DNB. I hate this thing and would have banned it in a heartbeat in any previous Reg, but Rocky Helmet has made it substantially easier to punish and I can't honestly say it feels broken any more. Even if it's SD Encore sets something as basic as rocky helm Corv can come in, eat a hit, click U-turn and then between both chip instances you've got a half dead otter that's forced out by whatever you bring in. And it's unlikely to find more opportunities in that state with 85 speed. Maybe then that weakened Corv opens up other opportunities for the opposing team etc etc, but it doesn't really feel like we're dealing with the qualities of a broken mon at that point, just like... a meta threat.
 
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Just got reqs with some infuriating last games. Here's the team I used:
Zard Y Number 1

I will be voting DNB. I agree with most of the reasons people have already posted. What I haven't seen anyone talk about is that I actually think the meta would be worse without Samu. There are a lot of strong Ghost (Cheater) types (Aegislash, Ceruledge, Dragapult) and High Powered Psychic (Shitter) types (Megagross, Slowking-Galar, Mega Delphox) that would be a lot harder to deal with without Samu. If someone could convince me that these guys wouldn't run amok without Samu I'd consider voting Ban.
 
Managed to get reqs with a very terrible chomp corv quaquavel pex stall, however generally speaking this tier doesnt mind samurott h too much, its pretty difficult to keep spikes up when you face full phys def helm corv every game. When I laddered I noticed that besides very few exceptions all teams are the same: Mandatory corv (mostly phys def), mandatory special chomp with either flame or fire blast, samu h or clef or pult, flavor mega (absol, glimm, meganium, floette), gking galar (when you want to turn the last braincells finally off and chilly around), last but not least broken life orb 4atks pawmot which requires you to click the right attack sometimes. This tier will for sure immensely improve once more mons and items are added. I feel like if people respected samu in the builder and ran this surprisingly very decent funny duck they would be fine into it. DNB
 
I got reqs today. I used two teams which are linked below at first but then I just switched to using the mega delphox sample team cause my teams weren't that good.
https://teams.pokemonshowdown.com/view/2062854-bpejazjsv728ff9d3pub
https://teams.pokemonshowdown.com/view/2053495-tzov8qfg3hfuibnwtaja
As for what I'll be voting, I might do a write-up on why I'm voting what I'm voting but I will be voting Do Not Ban.
Very proud of myself as this is my first time achieving reqs and I hope to vote in more suspects in the future.
 
I will be voting do not ban the mon is very good and very centralizing but not in a bad way. The set I think is best is SD, Ceeseledge, Sucker Punch, and Encore as it hits really hard and lets you beat corv if they defog/roost on you. I think this mon is definitely needed though to check mons like mega golisopod(encoring SD to allow it to not insta win) and mega delphox with sucker. It has counterplay like clefable and as long as you play decently well into it you can beat it.

These are the teams I used:
https://pokepast.es/d8f893a6606056d2 (Sample)
https://pokepast.es/df6d8e5765a3b630 (Slightly Edited Sample)
https://pokepast.es/b21aa9418311c652 (Pretty sure this is also an edited sample)

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