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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

may i see a few teams built around these sets, i think they’re interesting enough to try

if you know anything about me you’d know that when using unconventional mons i always pair them with mola but i feel like these 2 mons with their sets don’t rlly need it.
Ah sorry for the late reply man,

These are the two teams. These are not the maximum potential teams for these sets as I always build teams around different Megas or ideas. These two in particular were Mega Ttar and Mega Manectric -

https://pokepast.es/fca285e8cca1cc1c

https://pokepast.es/d82afeca811fcc0d
 
the increase of bot appearances swarming ladder and the fact that they have become difficult to fight (via timer stalling) has made me believe they are a hinderance for the tier rather than something to be ignored

I am not calling you out specifically because at least you actually did go back when you thought about it and liked the other side better but my point was this exactly.

If you experience the miserable bots ladder, you simply can't in good faith say that they are fine to keep as is. I think it's quite possible that more than half the pro bots crowd probably doesn't even play ladder.

Anyways to not bring this topic again I wanna talk about Zamazenta.

I have been using it on a lot of teams and my favourite set is Life Orb. I think this set so good I have a hard time justifying not running this set on all my Balance or Bulky Offense builds.

The more I have used LO the more I have come to believe that Life Orb Zama so heavily outclasses Boots Zama that they feel like completely different mons. Seriously you guys should check out the calcs on this. Ogerpon is straight up OHKOed. Even Mixed Def Mola and Corvi can be 2HKOed with Rocks. Zapdos will never avoid the 2HKO, Molt will never avoid the OHKO. Valiant gets OHKOed. Even the most Phys Def Hat is 2HKOed. Defensive Ghold and fast Pech can be 2HKOed with Rocks albeit a horrible roll.

One partner that is particularly good is Mola. Mola really eases the Lando T and Glis MU so you can run Heavy Slam and take on all fairies. You can also Wish ina. Pinch and heal off Rocky Helmet/Life Orb chip.

If you guys haven't, throw some decent hazard control on your team and try out Life Orb. It will be little worse in the longevity and taking a hit late game but check the calcs and you will see how much more potent the offense has become. More than worth the bargain.
 
RECENT FLUCTUATIONS HAVE GIVEN RISE TO MAGCARGO!? :magcargo: :magcargo: :magcargo: :magcargo: :magcargo:


A CKC sponsored Metagame discussion post



:sv/alomomola:


Ok so this is kinda bait caus Mola is obviously still a good mon, but it seems to be on a downwards trajectory. While its ladder usage remains astronomically high, its usage in NDPL has been low, raking up only 5 usages across 5 weeks (it even got no uses in week 4 which is crazy as an A+ mon), 2 of which were the same 6. This can largely be chalked down to Ogerpon Wellsprings incredibly high usage, but its general passivity on both AV and Wish sets can leave it vulnerable to foes like Kyurem and Dragonite (especially with sub sets seeing a bit more usage). While a bit nicher, foes like Specs Kyurem and Bolt can both leave AV Molas role as a special sponge for teams relatively redundant, being able to threaten it very easily. Hazards can also be problematic for AV sets, although most are partnered with good removal so this seems a bit of a non-issue.

This isn't taking anything away from Mola, its obviously still a very good mon, but it seems harder to justify using than stuff like Gking and Pex a lot of the time for what it does (albeit more in a vacuum for gking #trufssidenote). Lets all rally and use some nice Wish Mola...its what the fish was made to do.

:sv/tornadus-therian: :sv/garchomp: :sv/dragonite:

To counteract common mons like Mola, Glizzy, Lando-T etc. a lot of stuff has started running sub a lot more. Obviously things like Zama and Dnite have been running sub for a hot minute, in fact Zama has been running it less and less since its introduction as people have come to accept 4a sets as like the best mon in the tier kek. Dnite has always had the option of running sub on HO builds, but recently I've seen that diversify to bulkier stuff asw (2a roost DD genuinely be burger flipping half the time, sub is the future). Newer sub users include Torn-T who can capitalise on most Ground-types as well as passive stuff like Mola effectively, letting it plot up a lot more easily. The same applies for Garchomp who can utilise sub to get SDs off even more freely while not really being that big of a loss move slot wise provided you can slot something like Rocks elsewhere. The reason these 2 are so effective at fishing certain mus is because of how much pressure they apply and how easily they can force switches to capitalise on. These are likely far from the only abusers, but I feel sub on some stuff could be experimented with more in the future. (Obviously Kyurem fits here as well as subs primary abuser, just not through setup unless you moving like the twist with some sub dd tect motion, and is obviously a prime example of being able to capitalise on passive dudes to sub up)

:sv/clodsire: :sm/sableye-mega: :sv/hydrapple:

Stall seems to be on the up rn. Across PL and FL so far its been loaded 5/6 times (as of this week, 5 stalls and a semi stall), which seems pretty modest, but has won every one. An 100% winrate from 6 games is pretty crazy even if some had some fortune involved. Its clearly not something you can bring to every matchup, but what Stall does very well, and always has done, is secure the matchups it wants to very well. Anything lacking enough firepower can find it very hard to wear down teams over time, especially with the rise of things like Mega Sableye and Hydrapple which can check common stall breakers decently well. Hazards + Knock still do the job a lot of the time, but getting these hazards are often difficult with Sableyes presence, and breakers like Calm Mind Lele and Ogerpon-Wellspring can also put in lots of work into these teams (and cornerstone! tap in) Most current compositions seem to be opting for Dozo Bliss Clod Corv Apple and then usually Sab, but Glisc can also see use. Hydrapple in particular is interesting due to its ability to double up as a way of Stall forcing progress into fatter builds it might struggle with, while also doubling up as a check to wetpon and Shifu. It also remains to have lots of usage at high elos on ladder, which is partially due to lots of ladder not knowing how to play against it, but also shows its consistency in securing games.

:sv/iron moth: :sv/volcarona:

The 2 moths seem to be on pretty different trajectories. Both have seen relatively similar usage this NDPL despite being a whole rank different (A- to B-) What makes Moth see this high usage while Volc falls behind slightly? Likely due to Volcs answers being like HARD answers, making it basically a burger flipper in some matchups. Faced with a Pex or AV Jet Mola Volc can find it pretty hard to force progress, doing very little a lot of the time. Volc is also pretty one dimensional - this isn't a bad thing per say, and it does have some variety in item slot (Bug Z, Lorb, Other Z, Boots) and is obviously EXTREMEMLY potent in the right matchup, but it can only function as a sweeper. Moth not only has the ability to function as a cleaner (a less potent one due to its lack of reliable setup), but higher speed + Booster Speed can make it an excellent revenge killer with great snowball potential on some Screens builds. It also has potential to run Pivot sets on some non HO build where it can leverage its high speed (especially when partnered with Koko) and access to pivoting and recovery to be an interesting piece.

Obviously these 2 are not really comparable (Completely different structures generally) and are only being grouped together by virtue of being moths, but I find it pretty interesting that Moths usage has risen to a similar level to its modern day counterpart. (This isn't taking into account ladder in any capacity where Volc sees MILES more usage, its not even close)

:sv/zamazenta: :sv/moltres-galar: :sv/Ceruledge: :sv/cresselia:

Screens are really good right now. With more and more abusers being tested on it as the weeks go bye, it can become pretty difficult to account for all the threats it can feasibly slot. Newer developments like Galarian Moltres and Iron Moth can be a huge pain, while old faces like Ogerpon-W, Ceruledge, Hatterene, Gholdengo, Great Tusk etc. are all facilitated extremely well by screen setters. Not only this but there are multiple good screen setters - Zamazenta is one of the tiers top mons, Koko can enable Eterrain structures and the host of abusers that can bring, and even Grimmsnarl has a niche as a setter with Prio and a unique toolkit. I may be a bit bias towards Screens as someone who's been spamming it for ages now (Webs will always be my favourite tho #spread the word of lauryn hill webs) but it definitely seems to be on an upwards trend with more and more abusers being explored as time flies (My NDFL team loaded Cress on screens last week for example)

:sv/ninetales: :sv/venusaur: :sm/houndoom-mega:

Sun is also very good right now! As Yard semisun structures have gotten less and less popular as time has gone on, fullsun with Ninetales and sometimes even Tork have become more and more used. Sun experienced a lot of buffs heading into SV, courtesy of the Past Paradox people, especially Tusk and Bolt, but its only been more recently since the Tera Ban that fullsun has been garnering traction. New developments including Cresselia and Mega Houndoom have contributed to this, especially when coupled with Venu whos speed brings some cool things to fullsun. This isn't to forget the usual cohort either - Ceruledge, Raging Bolt and Great Tusk are all great abusers and can utilise sun very well to break through teams. (Magic Bouncers seem to remain the norm asw on these, normally packing a Mdia or Hatt on top of usual removal in Tusk or something of that ilk).

Side note but Cress is on the up across lots of things, be it for its defensive capabilities with Twave and Lunar Dance / Blessing (idr which one is the Hwish reskin) or for its Calm Mind sets which can wreak havoc on unprepared teams with its good bulk and recovery.



https://pokepast.es/079fde508271d76f

Varying quality of sets, some shitmons (Basepon looking at u), some not so shitmons with a little twist on em. Fun to play around with and build with (WARNING DO NOT LOAD IN SERIOUS GAMES MOST OF THESE ARE ASS)

However there are some sets I DO want to emphasize a bit more. AV Kyurem has seen some great use as a trade machine in high level play, being able to snipe unsuspecting Yard and Volc, while also doing standard Kyurem Freeze Dry EP things. Its a really cool piece to mess around with on more offensive structures and def has room for innovation with it (Body Press things can also exist to be hitting Tar and Gambit). Trapper Volcanion is a set that has been around for a hot minute to trap Mola, and with Molas slight decline in tournament play, you may think Canion would see less use. While this may be true for the trapper set, standard Wallbreaker sets can still break down teams unprepared for it utilising its strong STABs, Taunt and things like EP for Pex. I already mentioned Sub Torn and Cress in more detail earlier on, so won't go into detail on them here, but definitely recommend both of those as well

Yes I did just put a standard Cornerstone here. Its underrated no lie.

:sv/darkrai: :sv/deoxys-speed: :sv/palafin: :sv/espathra:

All of these dudes have I think been brought up in some capacity when talking about potential unbans. While I think the tier is in a relatively good spot right now and wouldn't want to switch it up too much, a few things are probably balanced.

Rai is unhealthy in my eyes. Not because of how broken it is, but because of how cheesy and annoying its Z Hypno sets were. I'm not of the train of thought of "just ban sleep" - sleep is fine in the tier in general and can be pretty fun to play around with - Its really just Rai that gets pushed over the edge by it. Even without sleep Rai could potentially be broken: its a very scary wallbreaker in its own right with Fight Z and its great speed and special attack, although I'm pretty sure it would be a lot less controversial.

That point remains true for Deo-S. The way it remained banned was kinda fluky sure, but once again with its excellent Speed stat and access to Plot, Z moves could very easily be seen to push Deo over the edge. While I do think it could feasibly come back and not be broken, I highly doubt it adds to the tier in any way - more just pushes it further towards HO slop.

As much as I love Espathra it is really just unnecessary cheese and doesn't actually add anything to the tier, although I don't really think it would be broken.

Palafin is definitely not ok LOL. That shit hits like a truck coming off like 160 base attack stat and very good bulk. Both Band and Bulk Up sets probably break the meta, Palafins drawbacks are widely documented as easy to play around so you basically just have Palafin Hero reaping havoc on everything.

More clickbait. I don't really think anything is banworthy right now, the tier seems to be in a pretty balanced state with no major problem mons. The talks surrounding Ogerpon-W, Volcarona and Gholdengo all seem to have died down largely as the meta has settled down more and people have started to take them into account more seriously when building - they do force that in the builder but its not really that big of a strain. This meta is far from linear and has lots of room for innovation right now, and I'm excited to see what people can do! #Motivationalspeech

This was just a brief summary of some trends I had seen in the metagame right now, will probably go into more depth post NDPL. TLDR is meta is in a good place right now and is pretty fun to play around with. Lots of things are shifting around in popularity (outside of the main things, Zama Ghold Wellspring still the big 3) and there's a lot of room for innovation with things

See yall around, peace
 
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RECENT FLUCTUATIONS HAVE GIVEN RISE TO MAGCARGO!? :magcargo: :magcargo: :magcargo: :magcargo: :magcargo:


A CKC sponsored Metagame discussion post



:sv/alomomola:


Ok so this is kinda bait caus Mola is obviously still a good mon, but it seems to be on a downwards trajectory. While its ladder usage remains astronomically high, its usage in NDPL has been low, raking up only 5 usages across 5 weeks (it even got no uses in week 4 which is crazy as an A+ mon), 2 of which were the same 6. This can largely be chalked down to Ogerpon Wellsprings incredibly high usage, but its general passivity on both AV and Wish sets can leave it vulnerable to foes like Kyurem and Dragonite (especially with sub sets seeing a bit more usage). While a bit nicher, foes like Specs Kyurem and Bolt can both leave AV Molas role as a special sponge for teams relatively redundant, being able to threaten it very easily. Hazards can also be problematic for AV sets, although most are partnered with good removal so this seems a bit of a non-issue.

This isn't taking anything away from Mola, its obviously still a very good mon, but it seems harder to justify using than stuff like Gking and Pex a lot of the time for what it does (albeit more in a vacuum for gking #trufssidenote). Lets all rally and use some nice Wish Mola...its what the fish was made to do.

:sv/tornadus-therian: :sv/garchomp: :sv/dragonite:

To counteract common mons like Mola, Glizzy, Lando-T etc. a lot of stuff has started running sub a lot more. Obviously things like Zama and Dnite have been running sub for a hot minute, in fact Zama has been running it less and less since its introduction as people have come to accept 4a sets as like the best mon in the tier kek. Dnite has always had the option of running sub on HO builds, but recently I've seen that diversify to bulkier stuff asw (2a roost DD genuinely be burger flipping half the time, sub is the future). Newer sub users include Torn-T who can capitalise on most Ground-types as well as passive stuff like Mola effectively, letting it plot up a lot more easily. The same applies for Garchomp who can utilise sub to get SDs off even more freely while not really being that big of a loss move slot wise provided you can slot something like Rocks elsewhere. The reason these 2 are so effective at fishing certain mus is because of how much pressure they apply and how easily they can force switches to capitalise on. These are likely far from the only abusers, but I feel sub on some stuff could be experimented with more in the future. (Obviously Kyurem fits here as well as subs primary abuser, just not through setup unless you moving like the twist with some sub dd tect motion, and is obviously a prime example of being able to capitalise on passive dudes to sub up)

:sv/clodsire: :sm/sableye-mega: :sv/hydrapple:

Stall seems to be on the up rn. Across PL and FL so far its been loaded 5/6 times (as of this week, 5 stalls and a semi stall), which seems pretty modest, but has won every one. An 100% winrate from 6 games is pretty crazy even if some had some fortune involved. Its clearly not something you can bring to every matchup, but what Stall does very well, and always has done, is secure the matchups it wants to very well. Anything lacking enough firepower can find it very hard to wear down teams over time, especially with the rise of things like Mega Sableye and Hydrapple which can check common stall breakers decently well. Hazards + Knock still do the job a lot of the time, but getting these hazards are often difficult with Sableyes presence, and breakers like Calm Mind Lele and Ogerpon-Wellspring can also put in lots of work into these teams (and cornerstone! tap in) Most current compositions seem to be opting for Dozo Bliss Clod Corv Apple and then usually Sab, but Glisc can also see use. Hydrapple in particular is interesting due to its ability to double up as a way of Stall forcing progress into fatter builds it might struggle with, while also doubling up as a check to wetpon and Shifu. It also remains to have lots of usage at high elos on ladder, which is partially due to lots of ladder not knowing how to play against it, but also shows its consistency in securing games.

:sv/iron moth: :sv/volcarona:

The 2 moths seem to be on pretty different trajectories. Both have seen relatively similar usage this NDPL despite being a whole rank different (A- to B-) What makes Moth see this high usage while Volc falls behind slightly? Likely due to Volcs answers being like HARD answers, making it basically a burger flipper in some matchups. Faced with a Pex or AV Jet Mola Volc can find it pretty hard to force progress, doing very little a lot of the time. Volc is also pretty one dimensional - this isn't a bad thing per say, and it does have some variety in item slot (Bug Z, Lorb, Other Z, Boots) and is obviously EXTREMEMLY potent in the right matchup, but it can only function as a sweeper. Moth not only has the ability to function as a cleaner (a less potent one due to its lack of reliable setup), but higher speed + Booster Speed can make it an excellent revenge killer with great snowball potential on some Screens builds. It also has potential to run Pivot sets on some non HO build where it can leverage its high speed (especially when partnered with Koko) and access to pivoting and recovery to be an interesting piece.

Obviously these 2 are not really comparable (Completely different structures generally) and are only being grouped together by virtue of being moths, but I find it pretty interesting that Moths usage has risen to a similar level to its modern day counterpart. (This isn't taking into account ladder in any capacity where Volc sees MILES more usage, its not even close)

:sv/zamazenta: :sv/moltres-galar: :sv/Ceruledge: :sv/cresselia:

Screens are really good right now. With more and more abusers being tested on it as the weeks go bye, it can become pretty difficult to account for all the threats it can feasibly slot. Newer developments like Galarian Moltres and Iron Moth can be a huge pain, while old faces like Ogerpon-W, Ceruledge, Hatterene, Gholdengo, Great Tusk etc. are all facilitated extremely well by screen setters. Not only this but there are multiple good screen setters - Zamazenta is one of the tiers top mons, Koko can enable Eterrain structures and the host of abusers that can bring, and even Grimmsnarl has a niche as a setter with Prio and a unique toolkit. I may be a bit bias towards Screens as someone who's been spamming it for ages now (Webs will always be my favourite tho #spread the word of lauryn hill webs) but it definitely seems to be on an upwards trend with more and more abusers being explored as time flies (My NDFL team loaded Cress on screens last week for example)

:sv/ninetales: :sv/venusaur: :sm/houndoom-mega:

Sun is also very good right now! As Yard semisun structures have gotten less and less popular as time has gone on, fullsun with Ninetales and sometimes even Tork have become more and more used. Sun experienced a lot of buffs heading into SV, courtesy of the Past Paradox people, especially Tusk and Bolt, but its only been more recently since the Tera Ban that fullsun has been garnering traction. New developments including Cresselia and Mega Houndoom have contributed to this, especially when coupled with Venu whos speed brings some cool things to fullsun. This isn't to forget the usual cohort either - Ceruledge, Raging Bolt and Great Tusk are all great abusers and can utilise sun very well to break through teams. (Magic Bouncers seem to remain the norm asw on these, normally packing a Mdia or Hatt on top of usual removal in Tusk or something of that ilk).

Side note but Cress is on the up across lots of things, be it for its defensive capabilities with Twave and Lunar Dance / Blessing (idr which one is the Hwish reskin) or for its Calm Mind sets which can wreak havoc on unprepared teams with its good bulk and recovery.



https://pokepast.es/079fde508271d76f

Varying quality of sets, some shitmons (Basepon looking at u), some not so shitmons with a little twist on em. Fun to play around with and build with (WARNING DO NOT LOAD IN SERIOUS GAMES MOST OF THESE ARE ASS)

However there are some sets I DO want to emphasize a bit more. AV Kyurem has seen some great use as a trade machine in high level play, being able to snipe unsuspecting Yard and Volc, while also doing standard Kyurem Freeze Dry EP things. Its a really cool piece to mess around with on more offensive structures and def has room for innovation with it (Body Press things can also exist to be hitting Tar and Gambit). Trapper Volcanion is a set that has been around for a hot minute to trap Mola, and with Molas slight decline in tournament play, you may think Canion would see less use. While this may be true for the trapper set, standard Wallbreaker sets can still break down teams unprepared for it utilising its strong STABs, Taunt and things like EP for Pex. I already mentioned Sub Torn and Cress in more detail earlier on, so won't go into detail on them here, but definitely recommend both of those as well

Yes I did just put a standard Cornerstone here. Its underrated no lie.

:sv/darkrai: :sv/deoxys-speed: :sv/palafin: :sv/espathra:

All of these dudes have I think been brought up in some capacity when talking about potential unbans. While I think the tier is in a relatively good spot right now and wouldn't want to switch it up too much, a few things are probably balanced.

Rai is unhealthy in my eyes. Not because of how broken it is, but because of how cheesy and annoying its Z Hypno sets were. I'm not of the train of thought of "just ban sleep" - sleep is fine in the tier in general and can be pretty fun to play around with - Its really just Rai that gets pushed over the edge by it. Even without sleep Rai could potentially be broken: its a very scary wallbreaker in its own right with Fight Z and its great speed and special attack, although I'm pretty sure it would be a lot less controversial.

That point remains true for Deo-S. The way it remained banned was kinda fluky sure, but once again with its excellent Speed stat and access to Plot, Z moves could very easily be seen to push Deo over the edge. While I do think it could feasibly come back and not be broken, I highly doubt it adds to the tier in any way - more just pushes it further towards HO slop.

As much as I love Espathra it is really just unnecessary cheese and doesn't actually add anything to the tier, although I don't really think it would be broken.

Palafin is definitely not ok LOL. That shit hits like a truck coming off like 160 base attack stat and very good bulk. Both Band and Bulk Up sets probably break the meta, Palafins drawbacks are widely documented as easy to play around so you basically just have Palafin Hero reaping havoc on everything.

More clickbait. I don't really think anything is banworthy right now, the tier seems to be in a pretty balanced state with no major problem mons. The talks surrounding Ogerpon-W, Volcarona and Gholdengo all seem to have died down largely as the meta has settled down more and people have started to take them into account more seriously when building - they do force that in the builder but its not really that big of a strain. This meta is far from linear and has lots of room for innovation right now, and I'm excited to see what people can do! #Motivationalspeech

This was just a brief summary of some trends I had seen in the metagame right now, will probably go into more depth post NDPL. TLDR is meta is in a good place right now and is pretty fun to play around with. Lots of things are shifting around in popularity (outside of the main things, Zama Ghold Wellspring still the big 3) and there's a lot of room for innovation with things

See yall around, peace
Haven't played the tier in a good amount of time so take this with a big grain of salt but....
- What exactly are the arguments in favor of keeping Z-Hypnosis in general? Even on users that are considered "ass" like Xurkitree, this combination hardly seems competitive to me just because how much it potentially swings match-ups based on a largely RNG Mechanic. Even on mediocre Pokemon like the aforementioned Xurkitree, if the cards fall in its favor, then it sets up a free Tail Glow and is prime condition to sweep. Same applies to many other cheesers such as NP Gengar or CM/SD Hypno Valiant. Regardless of how reliable these combinations are, the existence of such sets simply seem uncompetitive in my eyes due to how much they can swing match-ups based on RNG. For the record, I don't really care about Darkrai in general, but Hypnosis itself is more broadly uncompetitive.
- For Palafin, why would Band and Bulk Up sets break the metagame more than Urshifu-RS - an existing Pokemon that is largely not seen as problematic? Would it not be contained by the same mons / cores that contain Urshifu-RS?
 
Haven't played the tier in a good amount of time so take this with a big grain of salt but....
- What exactly are the arguments in favor of keeping Z-Hypnosis in general? Even on users that are considered "ass" like Xurkitree, this combination hardly seems competitive to me just because how much it potentially swings match-ups based on a largely RNG Mechanic. Even on mediocre Pokemon like the aforementioned Xurkitree, if the cards fall in its favor, then it sets up a free Tail Glow and is prime condition to sweep. Same applies to many other cheesers such as NP Gengar or CM/SD Hypno Valiant. Regardless of how reliable these combinations are, the existence of such sets simply seem uncompetitive in my eyes due to how much they can swing match-ups based on RNG. For the record, I don't really care about Darkrai in general, but Hypnosis itself is more broadly uncompetitive.
- For Palafin, why would Band and Bulk Up sets break the metagame more than Urshifu-RS - an existing Pokemon that is largely not seen as problematic? Would it not be contained by the same mons / cores that contain Urshifu-RS?
palafin is generally considered more problematic due to jet punch(one of the best priority moves in game) and having 30 more attack than shifu, a slightly higher speed tier and 27 more spdef with almost identical in other bulk stats. z hypnosis has not been touched most likely because it hasnt seen tons of use at a high level and is fishy at best with most teams have reliable counter play.
 
palafin is generally considered more problematic due to jet punch(one of the best priority moves in game) and having 30 more attack than shifu, a slightly higher speed tier and 27 more spdef with almost identical in other bulk stats. z hypnosis has not been touched most likely because it hasnt seen tons of use at a high level and is fishy at best with most teams have reliable counter play.
What is the reliable counterplay that most teams have access to against Z-Hypnosis? I'm looking at some of replays of teams used in NDPL and most of the counterplay just seems to be packing multiple forms of priority - which works but also can be said to be counterplay to most busted stuff in general. I suppose a Gholdengo or Mega Diancie pivot could work here and there, but I also dont consider them "reliable" answers perse since they can be put in a poor position if attacked directly.
 
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What is the reliable counterplay that most teams have access to against Z-Hypnosis? I'm looking at some of replays of teams used in NDPL and most of the counterplay just seems to be packing multiple forms of priority - which works but also can be said to be counterplay to most busted stuff in general. I suppose a Gholdengo or Mega Diancie pivot could work here and there, but I also dont consider them "reliable" answers perse since they can be put in a poor position if attacked directly.
Gholdengo, and eterrain both can shut it down generally (terrain is kinda rare anymore tho). otherwise for xurk you can check it with priority or a faster mon, which most scarfers outspeed or a fat mon that can take a hit and norm kills back such as treads or ting lu, for something like val you can just use your normal answer most of the time just as long as it doesnt get slept which you can play around or use priority here as well, but you never see hypnosis val since it wastes a move a 60% sleep that they can just wake up from or miss making it possibly useless, when you have other options like booster energy for it to give a similar boost and no risk. then for something like gengar its easy to check defensively which you norm have plenty of options on a general team, since it needs np and hyp to abuse the z, then you only have 2 options for attacks which isnt enough for it to cover most things it needs to. and gengar is also frail and weak to priority from many mons like the common gambit. and you also can win off of hyp missing or waking up on there setup turn making it very inconsistent for opp(not the most reliable way but when combined with other options makes it manageable)
 
What is the reliable counterplay that most teams have access to against Z-Hypnosis? I'm looking at some of replays of teams used in NDPL and most of the counterplay just seems to be packing multiple forms of priority - which works but also can be said to be counterplay to most busted stuff in general. I suppose a Gholdengo or Mega Diancie pivot could work here and there, but I also dont consider them "reliable" answers perse since they can be put in a poor position if attacked directly.
the counter play is that the mons that use z hypno are ass

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these are all of the guys that can learn hypnosis. you already addressed this but it cannot be overstated how buns some of these pokemon are. the ONLY reason xurk uses it is because of the speed buff + access to tail glow. even then, there's a lot of pokemon that discourage you from using status moves, such as dengo glisc diancie etc. ting lu and scarf lando OBLITERATE xurk bro. iron valiant CAN use it but that set is bad. with only 2 attacking moves, no matter what set you are using, you leave yourself open to getting walled by something that immediately threaten you. both ival and xurk are very frail. ival really does need etterain to be scary, and that blocks sleep so you can't even run it then. z hypno gengar is not real under any circumstance bro pls dont fall for it that mon is butt

whether or not you get the sleep is just a side effect of the move having low accuracy. its primarily used for its speed boosting effect to spiral out of control with boosting moves. the sleep is helpful, and i wont deny that sleep is a strong mechanic, but we have stuff like spore and sleep powder in the tier as well, and they aren't oppressive either. also, only being able to use the move once is a big factor on its usefulness. the reason why it seems to be taking so many games is because the set is cheesy as fuck, and quite frankly bad. but that means nobody preps for it, so its able to see a bit of usage before people start prepping for it again and knocking it out of any usage statistic for a few months before it comes back. i call this "the garganacl effect" because thats what happened to garg back when tera was legal. (except that garg was really that guy but he just fell in usage when mons started prepping for him)

tldr the set is shit and the mons that use it are shit, but its so shit that people dont build for it so its shittiness isn't accounted for so it shits itself into a win
 
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What is the reliable counterplay that most teams have access to against Z-Hypnosis? I'm looking at some of replays of teams used in NDPL and most of the counterplay just seems to be packing multiple forms of priority - which works but also can be said to be counterplay to most busted stuff in general. I suppose a Gholdengo or Mega Diancie pivot could work here and there, but I also dont consider them "reliable" answers perse since they can be put in a poor position if attacked directly.
I completely agree with your take. Almost always the 'counterplay' is sack something to sleep and let it be KOed and then go to a faster guy.

You are almost guaranteed to get value in form of a sleep or a kill from this because it forces such an awkward position. You can't go to your counter on Z Hypnosis turn so have to pick something else to send in. Even if they miss in this scenario, they can just click it again. Their odds are 84% to land one of two.

After that turn you need to have a counter that can either survive a boosted hit or is faster and has capacity to OHKO because they will be full if either of the Hypnosis landed.

For something with very specific counters and the potential to snowball entire matches, even at worst getting 1 sleep or 1 KO not half bad.
 
even with a sleep ban, darkrai would likely still be too strong into the current meta. it's expansive movepool in conjunction with z moves, alongside ample chances to set up nasty plot make it more or less impossible to wall consistently. and trying to be proactive could easily get you punished by a specs dark pulse, a status condition, or even just knock off tbh. if z moves are banned maybe we can discuss darkrai

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 8 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 408-481 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

literally becomes a gambling simulator
 
(Ps haven’t played since Terra ban) Ik this a little off topic but y is z-moves even allowed not saying the inherently broken but most mons don’t use them and if they do it’s for better stab or buffs like z-hypnosis
And side note y haven’t the new megas haven’t been dropped in yet?
 
(Ps haven’t played since Terra ban) Ik this a little off topic but y is z-moves even allowed not saying the inherently broken but most mons don’t use them and if they do it’s for better stab or buffs like z-hypnosis
And side note y haven’t the new megas haven’t been dropped in yet?
The new megas were introduced in Legends ZA. ZA was released over a year after the second and final SV DLC, and it's an entirely seperate game, which means no new megas until Winds/Waves comes out, and, by extension, Wi/Wa National Dex.

Then again, Game Freak has been hinting at an entirely new battle system, so that one may be a challenge for Zarel and the other PS! devs to replicate. Oh well, we can still stay with the classic system if that happens...
 
ok guys since the tier is looking to be in maybe its most realized shape for the forseeable future eg no unbans and not a big enough consensus from general playerbase that diancie is broken i think this is gonna be my semi-final pvr/metagame thoughts. this also reflects how i will vote on the next vr slate. anyways. here is my pvr, not gonna go over every mon // ones that should be obvious to people who play this tier with their eyes open but just some notable guys. tiers are ordered until b- where its kinda hodgepodge.

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:zamazenta: :diancie-mega: :ogerpon-wellspring: are the offense big dogs. cant rly trump any of em ever they all get value every game. ghold is still amazeballs it just can physically ever be in a bad position / exploited. util pon is broken dia is broken because it beats every speed control besides zama. gg

:tornadus-therian: :kingambit: :samurott-hisui: its maybe obvious by now but i rly value mons that can always bring something every game even in worse mus and these guys r the poster children of always contributing via knocks, prio, and/or breaking. rly good stuff here i think almost every offense should be using one of these guys especially with how well samu gambit enable broken diancie.

:iron-treads: is the best actual hazard controller since it can trade into diancie. defog torn is the second best because it is faster than diancie and can defog before it dies. cind is ok as well.

:ceruledge: and :Raging-bolt: aka hyper offense sleeper demons, these guys are so so bananas with the right squads its kinda crazy. just strong guys. :hatterene: downplay is also kinda insane but its ghold food kinda so i get it

:alomolola: fuck the fish this dude is ass

:mega-charizard-y: is extreme grade bait in diancieland. disagree and ur name isnt luuanfps = ur bad and have never clicked vs zama or diancie in ur life

:hydrapple: is top of B because it can fit outside of stall, but its on the best stall squad (mine lololololo) and is a real linchpin in holding it together. stall in general goes here idfk why tiermaker didnt have sab but stall is broken nobody is surprised. love apple though that dude is himmers

:iron-moth: and :iron-crown: offense demons. really fun to play around with in terms of sets i think these guys will probably be the face of the future innovations that we'll see once everyone is reusing the same 25 diancie/wellspring/ghold teams off cooldown.

:cresselia: harder to make work in a tier with so much toxic/super effective z moves available but rly good. enjoy this guy a lot.

:scizor-mega: :melmetal: bums. really really shit. msciz is better and still really shit.

:ribombee: webs is good. bee is the best setter since ur not autofried by torn diancie zapdos. :thundurus-therian: is webs exclusive and goes here as well. very good.

:pelipper: rain is poop when kyurem and diancie exists sorry libs

:glimmora: is pretty fun. enables cool structures because of how well red card can shut down volc, so prob gonna be a solid ho fella in the future.


anyways all these r my semi-perma thoughts on the metagame and barring action on diancie i dont think we will see a lot of changes perhaps. unbans i think are really really larp and just create more diancies (deo rmoon) or make really annoying coinflip fkers (pult). i think as this metagame settles down finally the rise of consistent value picks should be emphasized and i think my rankings match up with that pretty well. consistency > everything most times, and stuff like glisc i also value highly for this reason it's just that its kind of a soft prog farmer in some games. anyways nd is rly fun go play it ok bye im gonna go ladder ndubers and play deadlock
 
Regarding Ceruledge

Ceruledge is and has been for a while, in my opinion, the single strongest sweeper in the tier. It is also BY FAR the most unhealthy and degenerate presence in National Dex at least since the ban of Tera.

Regarding other powerful sweepers such as Gholdengo and Ogerpon-Wellspring, they are in general more viable, but they are not nearly as good at forcing a sweep, and even Gholdengo is not nearly as game warping on a micro scale to play against in practice.
Ceruledge forces a style of play nearly disallowing a large number of different moves until it is heavily chipped somehow, and due to its set variety and basically unwallable coverage, forces extremely safe play often to the point of passivity to prevent it from simply coming in on a move and winning the game instantly.

Once it gets set up it is impossible to revenge, nearly impossible to properly wall unless you have something like a Dondozo, and regenerates its health leaving it basically immune to priority revenge kills from anything besides Kingambit. (The typing also helps with this.)
The only way to beat it, for most teams, is to simply not let it set up ever, but this is easier said than done due to its massive variety of different sets and things it can do. Close Combat to break through walls such as Ting Lu, Z moves for crushing hard-to-crack walls, Shadow Sneak for priority before weak armor, Substitute for Kingambit mindgames, Endure + Weakness policy to be able to run more coverage while still having damage setup, and all of these sets have different mons that counter them.
If a Ceruledge is forced in on rocks, you have to make the choice wether to hit into it. If it's sash, you beat it. If it's endure, you often lose the game on the spot. (And even if you don't it's punched a big enough hole you're basically doomed anyway.) And the worst part about this is, unlike other pokemon with this problem (think Tapu Lele), there is literally no way to tell what set it is on team preview.

With sheer oppressiveness on a micro move-by-move scale just by existing on the opposing team, combined with it being bar none the most effective Hyper Offense threat in the tier despite its "Cheese" nature,
I think discussions involving tiering naturally come up for it.

Personally, I would enjoy some kind of tiering action for this Pokemon, as it facilitates a borderline uncompetitive mode of play, and restricts teams in-game far too much. It overshadows even giants like Ogerpon-Wellspring and Kingambit in terms of how far you have to alter your play to deal with it, and unlike those two it provides nothing to the meta in return.

A suspect would do wonders and at the very least something like that should probably be discussed.
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No i don't think so
Ceruledge forces a style of play nearly disallowing a large number of different moves until it is heavily chipped somehow, and due to its set variety and basically unwallable coverage, forces extremely safe play often to the point of passivity to prevent it from simply coming in on a move and winning the game instantly.
No it doesn't. The only moves u can't freely click in front of ceru are physical moves, but even that isn't absolute. only sash and endure can acc withstand the physical attacks it needs to tank. Also, unless its wp or already has an sd, giving it the speed boost only should NOT lead to losing on the spot. if you lose to +0 ceru, your team is cox. Tbh i don't see how this aspect of ceru is restrictive at all. its not like its in all the time and you dont have to play passive at all. Again, show me a GOOD TEAM that gives ceru entry on a physical move and loses on the spot. ceru takes skill to set up and if u constantly lose to it u might just be getting outplayed.
Once it gets set up it is impossible to revenge, nearly impossible to properly wall unless you have something like a Dondozo, and regenerates its health leaving it basically immune to priority revenge kills from anything besides Kingambit. (The typing also helps with this.)
its not impossible to revenge. suckers from gambit and hamu, tclap, mlop fake out and qa, ting lu, mola, dnite, lando-t, maxhp tusk, ttar, not to mention statusing it upon set up, or just using special attacks vs it. Just don't let it set up for super free. It's only hard to do that when your team is bad. also set variety is NOT that crazy. Z is very telegraphed, and sash sets are beaten by getting hazards up, which you should already to do begin with vs ceru. SUB IS NOT REAL. NOBODY EVER USED TS bc it sucks so thats not evidence it beats gambit.
If a Ceruledge is forced in on rocks, you have to make the choice wether to hit into it
if your opponent goes hard ceru on your rocks setter they outplayed you, just read their play next time and you won't lose, also z don't even get to do this freely so u can get info from their play.

Ngl only time I can remember losing to ceru was when I loaded an extremely cox team vs movo and I still only lost bc i threw away my check. If ceru slimes u on preview look at your loads bc thats most likely the issue. ceru not broken u just can't make bot plays vs it
 
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Ceruledge is and has been for a while, in my opinion, the single strongest sweeper in the tier. It is also BY FAR the most unhealthy and degenerate presence in National Dex at least since the ban of Tera.
For the avoidance of doubt, the Cool Kids Club (CKC) does not endorse this position and would like to formally disavow any association with S.C.’s frankly inflammatory remarks this evening.
 
I was hooked up over Colupis' post on Ceruledge, so I wanted to give my opinion, because I could also see his point while thinking otherwise. But first, I want to share my opinions about which used Pókemon most of people use (or which I would use) to hold Ceru back.

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Why Alomolola specifically? Well, I think you all know how nasty defensively 'Mola is, so it can use either Toxic to stall it out, Protect to scout the Z-Move and STAB Flip Turn to hurt it (Also keep in mind your giving it a boost). Also AV sets could also run STAB Aqua Jet to surprise it or STAB Liquidation to stoop its health short enough in range of Aqua Jet.

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Well, Samurott's Typing Combo speaks for itself, so I don't think I need to say much, however it Ceru' doesn't have Close Combat and you keep Hamurott alive and well, you wall ceru' good enough to not be a problem for you. Outside of hitting it witzh STAB Ceaseless Edcge and Razor Shell, Hamurott can also screw it Ceruledge using Encore of STAB Sucker Puch or STAB Aqua Jet.

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I think Colupis made his point already with the Sucker Punch mind games, though I wanna add that ifd there's Psychic Terrain and both Kingambit and ceruledge are grounded, Kingambit is in trouble. Outside of that its interesting, because neither of them are truly safe from one another: Ceruledge think the gambit is going Sucker Punch, but it goes into STAB Knock Off.

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Here's probably my favorite wall to deal with the shenanigans or Ceruledge. Giving how monstrously builky Ting Lu is, its no surprise it can tank every hit from Ceruledge that is not Close Combat. STAB Earthquiake kills, and if Ceru does have Air Baloon, Ting Lu just STAB Ruination or Rock Slude into it. Even in the case of Close Comabt, Ting Lu is bulky enough to outlive a Close Combat (not a boosted one). Also it has Whirlwind, which Ceruledge doesn't exactly appreciate.

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I think Tusk if a far better wall and adversary for ceru than anyone else. Given its great HP and physical bulk, Tusk has no issue of tanking hits (even the boosted onesif Tusk is at full health) outside of Ghost Z attacks. Where Tusk really can scre Ceruledge is when it uses eithe the Defensive set or the Bulk Up sets (Since Booster up is used, Great Tusk won't have an item anymore, which makes it immune from Ceruledge's STAB Poltergeist). Defensive sets are just THAT bulky while Bulk Up ste you have Max HP and you can still set yourself up to be hard for Ceru' to break.

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The defensive sets with Intimidate, invested Bulk on HP and Defence while being enogh fast to outspeed Ceruledge means it can be a good way to deal with it. Having Taunt on Lando also helps it screw Ceru's Plans on set itselfzup with Swords Dance. STAB Earth Power, while not being popular is EXTREMELY bad news for Ceruledge, because it leaves it with no double speed with Weak Armor.

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Zamazenta needs no introduction. Its strong, fast, bulky and has the option of going Crunch (ALWAYS go Crunch) or Stone Edge. With or without the boost of Dauntless Shield, Zamazenta can deal with Ceruledge well enough if used correctly. You just need to watch out for the Z-Crystal, IF there could be out. Outside of that you should theoretically be fine, thoght still something you need to keep an eye for. As for Iron-Press sets, you shouldn#T have problems, given you maxed in HP and speed and you should have Crunch.

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This one is interesting, because if Ceruledge doesn't have Close Combat, it's WALLED by Tyranitar Mega, which Mega Tyranitar can use STAB Pursuit to outright KO it. Given Tyranitar's typing, It naturally walls Ceruledge like nothing. Though if it DOES have Close Gombat, well...

I also want to mention Pókemon that even if the don't outright deal with Ceruledge, are factors that Ceruledge doesn#t enjoy.

:Lopunny-Mega: :Urshifu: :Scizor-mega: :Rillaboom: :Raging Bolt:
While Weak Armor is an amazing ability, the con to it is that you weanken your defense stat, leaving Seruledge vulnerable to all sorts of priority moves. While I talked about Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet from the likes of hamurott, Kingambit or Alomomola, there's also Urshifu who often or not uses Aqua Jet as a form of priority, which Ceru doesnt like. mega Lopunny also has priority like Fake Out AND Quick Attack. Alos Prioprity Moves which normally wouldnt be a problem for Ceru COULD be an issue for example a Grassy Glid from a Choice band Rillaboom and STAB Technician Bullet Punch from Scizor-Mega or a STAB Thunderclap from Raging Bolt.

I Also think of many other stuff that can hinder Ceruledge like strong special attackers (ESPECIALLY the ones that are super effective against it like Earth Powewr from Diancie Mega, STAB Shadow Ball form the likes of Choice Scarf Gholdengo or Pecharunt) and most notably being weak to hazards. Plus Ceruledge is threatening if you LET it set itself up. You just have to bully it enugh so it doesnt even want to go for Swords Dance. Ghostinium Z sets are popular but you dont have Close Combat, therefore being weak to some of the mentioned Pókemon. Air Ballon is also nice, but you lack the breaking power of the Z Cristal Ceruledge definitely wants. Weakness policy sets have the problem that you HAVE to hope that the opponent makes a foolish move to have a pseudo boost, however that plan can be easily be exploited by either using special attacks hazards, just Pókemons using normal coverage against it, priority or by using Encore.

Overall, I think while ceruledge all around is great. I dont exactly see it as an overwheliming issue liek something like Dragapult was. I think you just have to have an asset (Offenisvely and Defensively) you have to have on your team and I think you should be fine as it is. Just like Wellspring, Ceru can bve a svcary sweeper, but you could always plan something to deal with Ceruledge.
 
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