CAP 38 - Part 10 - Moveset Discussion

Spammernoob · Nov 2, 2026

CAP 38 So Far

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:

Moveset Archetype Submissions
Moveset Submissions
Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
General Commentary
Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

People post moveset archetypes.
People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Bleakwind Storm
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Burning Bulwark
Crush Grip
Collision Course
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dragon Energy
Dynamax Cannon
Electro Drift
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hydro Steam
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Ivy Cudgel
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Blessing
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Malignant Chain
Mighty Cleave
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Mystical Power
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psyblade
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Ruination
Sacred Fire
Sandsear Storm
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Springtide Storm
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Tachyon Cutter
Take Heart
Techno Blast
Tera Starstorm
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
Thunder Cage
Thunderclap
V-Create
Wicked Blow
Wildbolt Storm

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.

Code:

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.

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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.

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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.

Spammernoob · Nov 2, 2026

Just as a reminder...

Defining Moves:

Required: Grass STAB (Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Leaf Storm), Poison STAB (Sludge Bomb/Wave), Ground Coverage (Scorching Sands/Earth Power), Meteor Beam, Leech Seed, Toxic, 50% Recovery
Optional: Apple Acid, Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire/Flamethrower/Fire Blast), Will-O-Wisp

Universally Assumed Moves:

spoo said:
Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Seed Bomb
Bullet Seed
Leaf Blade

Acid Spray
Poison Jab
Gunk Shot
Sludge Bomb
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes

Endure
Facade
Helping Hand
Protect
Rest
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Take Down
Tera Blast

Now to hand things over to Zetalz

Zetalz · Nov 5, 2026

Howdy folks! Sorry for the long delay in opening this thread up, been having a very rough week IRL which kept me occupied, but now I'm back to get the ball rolling on movesets.

Here's where CAP 38 stands right now;

Type: Grass/Poison
Ability: Flower Veil
Stats:

HP	Atk	Def	SpA	SpD	Spe
131	66	81	127	64	131

Defining Moves:
Required: Grass STAB (Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Leaf Storm), Poison STAB (Sludge Bomb/Wave), Ground Coverage (Scorching Sands/Earth Power), Meteor Beam, Leech Seed, Toxic, 50% Recovery
Optional: Apple Acid, Fire Coverage (Mystical Fire/Flamethrower/Fire Blast), Will-O-Wisp

Universally Assumed Moves:

spoo said:
Giga Drain
Leaf Storm
Energy Ball
Seed Bomb
Bullet Seed
Leaf Blade

Acid Spray
Poison Jab
Gunk Shot
Sludge Bomb
Toxic OR Toxic Spikes

Endure
Facade
Helping Hand
Protect
Rest
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Take Down
Tera Blast

Before we move into full submissions, there's some housekeeping to get sorted, as well as several pressing questions being laid upon this stage.

Firstly, as we always start with the Movesets Stage; are there any moves in the Required or Optional moves list that need to be reassessed or cut, now that we have our Stats? Something with high volatilty like Apple Acid is an obvious contender for removal, but other moves like Will-O-Wisp and stronger Fire Coverage may be subject to re-evaluation. In the same vein, is there merit to entertaining any other coverage at this point? If yes, in what form?

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly; where do we land on 38's utility suite? During Defining Moves we kicked the major discussion on utility moves down the road, as the vast majority of moves discussed were of such low impact to not be relevant for the Stats Stage. At this stage, we erred away from high impact utility options such as Knock Off or Salt Cure, however, this is now subject to change.

With our stats now a known factor, and after some (very limited) testing on the test server, there's been growing concern that 38's Defensive sets are currently far less viable than Offensive, to the point of unplayability for some. There is a growing movement for the remainder of 38's competitive stages to focus on lifting up defensive sets, which after a stalled discussion in Secondary Ability, has now lead us to this stage as the means to address this flaw. Are we willing to deviate from our previously stated direction of lower-impact utility options in the pursuit of 'fixing' 38's Defensive sets? If so, where is the new line regarding powerful utility to be drawn? In addition, are there any angles for offensive moves to also accomplish this goal, without pushing Offensive over the edge? Another thing to consider is that although our stated design goal for Defensive was 2A to emulate Etern, we may end up drifting out of this strict design toward something like 3A with bulk EVs, or 1A Double Util, or something else entirely. Is this outcome something to avoid, or should we allow for deviation in the pursuit of ensuring 38 has a defensive set, regardless of the form it takes?

Final reminder that full moves submissions are not quite open yet. Hoping for this part of the stage to not last longer than 48 hours, but given how scuffed my internet is currently (in addition to all the other shit going to me this week lol), there could end up being more slight delays. Happy posting, and remember to remain civil!

TheShowdownHero · Nov 5, 2026

I personally think mystical fire should be on the required moves list, since that was on the assumed moves list, but outside of that I think mystical fire should be on it because its a good defensive utility move too, But what does everyone else think?

Edit: I re looked at the poll, I thought it meant it had to be on there but it said optional there too, thats my bad, but i still think I should be on the mon regardless due to the extra utility for defensive sets

Mystical fire essencially allows defensive cap 38 to wall special attackers by lowering their special attack on switch in,like equilibra

Deckus Carde · Friday at 11:21 AM

deckus addresses every single move ever go

I also think Mystical Fire should be a required move. While I am against fire coverage in general, Mystical Fire has low BP and a good side effect, allowing for both minor coverage against Ground-resisting Steels (:corviknight:Corviknight, :Equilibra:Equilibra, etc.) on offensive sets and to make 38 harder to kill on defensive sets. This coupled with Scorching Sands allows for 38 to attempt to boost its own bulk on both sides.

In the same vein, I think Will-o-Wisp and stronger Fire coverage should not be used. Will-o-Wisp can be used by offensive sets for a reliable way to outspeed and cripple most physical attacking threats like :obliteryx:Obliteryx, :Revenankh:Revenankh, and :Ogerpon-wellspring:Ogerpon. Compare that to a Pokemon like :dragapult:Dragapult, which has significantly less bulk and does not get access to a Mystical Fire-like. 38, on the other hand, already has tools to make it extremely hard to kill on the special side. Meanwhile, stronger Fire coverage would simultaneously dissuade the few counters 38 has from switching in and KOing. Also, we're trying to make Ground our secondary STAB, and having stronger Fire coverage would overshadow that part.

I personally do not think additional coverage is required. Grass/Poison/Ground/Fire is already an unresisted offensive combination, even if you replace any of those four types with Rock for Meteor Beam. In addition to that, picking any three of the five above types results in only a few type combinations that resist them (the one exception being Rock/Grass/Poison with 13.) Everything barring that has four or less resistances.

Regarding the utility, I don't know enough about :Eternatus:Eternatus and what we're trying to emulate with that, but I do know that we will probably need additional utility to be worthwhile. Stat drops and status are interesting, but Leech Seed and Toxic aren't that important to the meta. Already each one of them struggle against two very common meta threats: :ogerpon-wellspring:Ogerpon and :Equilibra:Equilibra. We'd either need to reliably spread a more impactful status (not burn, see my argument for Will-o-Wisp) or find some other way to be useful; whether through item management, another form of chip damage, or just generally messing with the opposing team.

Feldirion · Friday at 12:48 PM

Apple Acid must burn. I wrote half a page of calcs explaining how that thing was an abomination. It has to go.

On a more positive note, here are my initial thoughts. We've spent a great deal of time worrying about defensive sets in this process. Defining moves couldn't cut it. Abilities was a sinking lifeboat at best. I believe solving it here is our primary concern- even if it means diverging from Eternatus defensive 2a or reassessing our utility cap. I have firmly defended Pro-Eternatus directions throughout this process, but this is not a time for leaving any options on the table. Just adding Cosmic Power is not enough.

But likewise, we cannot break offensive sets. Mininatus is a fairly solid attacker already, and throwing it any more bones will risk a nerf post-playback. For that reason, I would counter the Mystical Fire arguments with the following calc, adjusted for 127 Sp.Atk:

:corviknight: 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 239-283 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Corviknight is a pretty good counter so far: neither our STABS nor ground coverage can really touch it. Slap Mystical Fire on this thing and suddenly we trade pretty well with it. Mystical Fire is not minor coverage. For the same reason, stronger fire STAB is a pretty dodgy idea.

To prevent this being a negative doomsaying post, I would like to propose we re-open discussion on Knock Off. It very much represents most of our options here: not impactful on offensive sets- though it does deprive switch-ins of their items. But if it's disarming Corviknight or blowing it to pieces, I know which one I'd prefer. Knock Off provides defensive sets with a solid utility tool, and that's what we're here to do.

traceyscetchit · Friday at 1:21 PM

Deckus Carde said:
In the same vein, I think Will-o-Wisp and stronger Fire coverage should not be used. Will-o-Wisp can be used by offensive sets for a reliable way to outspeed and cripple most physical attacking threats like :obliteryx:Obliteryx, :Revenankh:Revenankh, and :Ogerpon-wellspring:Ogerpon. Compare that to a Pokemon like :dragapult:Dragapult, which has significantly less bulk and does not get access to a Mystical Fire-like. 38, on the other hand, already has tools to make it extremely hard to kill on the special side. Meanwhile, stronger Fire coverage would simultaneously dissuade the few counters 38 has from switching in and KOing. Also, we're trying to make Ground our secondary STAB, and having stronger Fire coverage would overshadow that part.

The offensive set just doesn't have to tools to effectively make use of will-o-wisp. The dragapult comparision is a stretch, as pult has so many enablers for will-o-wisp that we don't have; it has more spammable stabs which frees up moveslots, hex does significantly more damage than shadow ball to statused targets, and u-turn is extremely powerful on will-o-wisp pokemon. Look at the will-o-wisp users in CAP, OU, and UU; :kitsunoh:, :cinderace:, :dragapult:, :moltres:, :rotom-wash:, and :talonflame: all run pivoting, compared to just:necturna:, :heatran:, and :astrolotl: who don't. And that's not to say GameFreak or CAP only give 'mons with pivoting wisp; there are plenty of pokemon that learn wisp but don't run it.

This doesn't mean we need wisp, I just don't think we should discard it because of offensive.

I also agree with Deckus and TheShowdownHero Re: mystical fire is good but strong fire coverage isn't, but I think this logic could very easily be extended to ground coverage as well. Our stats are honestly absurd, as we have a very well-minmaxed spread with a BSR limit that was set overly high given our coverage and ability, and penalties that were likely too low for our speed. Obviously the test server should be taken with a grain of salt but the offensive sets feel crazy strong. I think cutting earth power for scorching sands could be a good limiter. Deciding to wait and see, and potentially gritting through an overbearing CAP 38 meta until PPL is valid, but if we're taking action to buff the defensive set due to power shortages I think its logical to do the inverse for the offensive set.

Guingil · Friday at 6:41 PM

Zetalz said:
...are there any moves in the Required or Optional moves list that need to be reassessed or cut, now that we have our Stats?

Cutting moves from Required would be a premature decision, based on insufficient information. While offensive sets seem like they can stand on their own, it's only in tournaments that we will see people actively creating counterstrategies. Choosing one of Ground coverage and Mystical Fire seems like an actual decision, reminiscent of SS Eternatus. This is a dynamic I'd want us to preserve. 4A sets (such as Meteor Beam) that eschew Recover are a real possibility, but I'd like to compare it to something like Ogerpon-W. The lack of pivoting and utility in Knock Off is a significant differentiator, but so are Meteor Beam and a great Speed tier à la Stratagem. Even if that set needs some balancing, it could be through some other avenue such as stats. So, I say we shelve this concern for now until we have a clearer picture.

Zetalz said:
Are we willing to deviate from our previously stated direction of lower-impact utility options in the pursuit of 'fixing' 38's Defensive sets? If so, where is the new line regarding powerful utility to be drawn?

This is a crucial juncture at which, in my opinion, we are asked to sacrifice one aspect of being Eternatus-like in order to preserve the more essential ones. Anyone watch the movie 127 Hours? I think it's like that. There is the possibility that we forget about the defensive set altogether, but this is the extreme option. Instead, we could perhaps adopt a broader interpretation of what a defensive set is: can it be a 3A tank like Mega Venusaur, instead of the 2A + utility option? Perhaps. In that case, there wouldn't be a need to add more utility tools and instead focus on how smart investment and a non-LO item can make us a resilient progress maker with only damage as our progress-making tool. I'm not sure this mode functions all that well, but nevertheless, Sludge Bomb / Mystical Fire / Giga Drain (or Scorching Sands) form a decent combination with useful secondary effects. Matcha Gotcha could be considered for the same thing here as well.

The other option is, of course, to include another utility option. This is necessary because Toxic, for all its strength in Ubers, is simply not impactful enough in CAP / OU, with all the absorbers and viable Poison-types. Leech Seed is also not moving the needle a lot. But the other, higher-impact options each come with a sacrifice of the "purity" of Eternatus' limited kit, but also provide us with a defensive or utility niche:

Will-O-Wisp - was an optional move, but I think it still deserves consideration here. We already extended the definition of Toxic immunity as part of Eternatus' niche to full status immunity using Flower Veil... so the jump from spreading Toxic to spreading another, more useful status, to me at least, isn't too egregious. Mystical Fire + Wisp makes a pretty resilient debuffing kit, so I'd be interested in exploring it.

Mortal Spin - contributes to the removal game, unlike Eternatus. But you create a niche of contributing to the hazards game while being a fast status-absorber that can also trade decently. Cinderace, while it has pivoting, has also run a fast secondary hazard control set, and I think this can be a useful model for defensive viability. Alternate removal can be considered here as well, but the limited nature of Mortal Spin into things that already have a good matchup against us makes it more appealing for me.

Knock Off - this makes 38 more a hit-and-run Pokemon rather than something that thrives upon staying in, but the instant raising of our defensive floor is undeniable. I'd want to hear quziel's thoughts on this at this point, considering they've been the earliest advocate for it.

I think I'd draw the line there. I'm not sure how I feel about a combination of two of the above; need more time to mull over that. Salt Cure seems like it would also do a lot, but I fear its matchup into the Steel-types that we expect to serve as decent checks to 38 takes it above the line of simple viability into something scarier. I've been on the record saying that we don't need to make the defensive set equally as good as the offensive ones--just viable, maybe enough to get a set analysis. If the offensive set is currently A-ranked in viability, I think even B for defensive means we have done a decent job. They currently feel like C-ranked to me; thus, this push towards subtler usefulness is what we should aim for.

bumboclaat · Saturday at 12:59 AM

Zetalz said:
Firstly, as we always start with the Movesets Stage; are there any moves in the Required or Optional moves list that need to be reassessed or cut, now that we have our Stats? Something with high volatilty like Apple Acid is an obvious contender for removal, but other moves like Will-O-Wisp and stronger Fire Coverage may be subject to re-evaluation. In the same vein, is there merit to entertaining any other coverage at this point? If yes, in what form?

I have not made a post in a couple of stages due to a combination of being sick and it being a busy time with both work and other Smogon obligations and finally have a bit of time to engage again. I've consistently opposed against against stronger Fire-type coverage and think that Fire Blast specifically should be on the chopping block. I'm not a fan of Flamethrower either, but you've got to pick and choose your battles. The primary reason for my opposition to Fire Blast is that the extra power will allow Life Orb sets to blast past Steel-types - primarily Equilibra and Gholdengo, but honestly most relevant ones.

Equilibria can no longer switch in if Stealth Rock is up, same with Physdef Corviknight. Kitsunoh and offensive Gholdengo are cleanly OHKOed while max HP Gholdengo just requires a single layer of Spikes. That extra power makes a meaningful difference while having access to strong Fire-type coverage adds varience that is likely to manifest in an unhealthy and unfun manner. Strong Fire-type coverage alongside Earth Power enables CAP 38 to blitz through most Pokémon not named Blissey and forces the opponent to play guess the coverage. This disproportionately benefits the CAP 38 user - especially when CAP 38 is already naturally fast and bulky.

Yes, Glowking can afford to scout once, but the Glowking user has to hope the CAP 38 user hasn't dropped a STAB or Recover to run both coverage options. Speculatively, this has some pretty strong second order effects since this strong coverage is a direct result of CAP 38's STABs blanking into defensive staples and giving CAP 38 the ability to bypass most of them will likely disproportionately enable offensive partners alongside the aforementioned volatility that frequently results in a glorified guessing game. Apple Acid alongside all that is kind of nuts imo. I do think there is a way to potentially include Apple Acid in a way that doesn't end up overbearing. I don't think that is possible with everything else that has been proposed and discussed.

Lastly, I've given a bit of thought to the Life Orb Mystical Fire example given above and that seems ok to me. CAP 38 isn't breaking Equlibria without trading itself or being incredibly vulnerable to a revenge killer afterwards. This also comes at a pretty significant cost that actually seems annoying. It can go for full on coverage, but its breaking is heavily limited due to dropping Recover and Life Orb Chip meaning it really can't afford to take more than a single hit in many games. While Mystical Fire is good, the power leaves a lot to be desired, especially when used as a breaking tool as the BP disparity between it and Fire Blast means teammates now have to pick up a lot of slack against a fair few staples regardless of what moves CAP 38 uses. The STABs are STAB, but also enable CAP 38 to heavily punish common Tera types while Earth Power is very good coverage. That is a lot of work in the teambuilder to enable to CAP 38 to beat Corviknight and not strong enough to deny a tool for defensive sets imo.

Wisp No real thoughts on this still

Knock Off Yes it isn't very 'Eternatus like,' but we've also backed ourselves into a corner where a lot of our options are not very 'Eternatus like' and that is ok. There are a lot of things about CAP 38 so far that are arguably less 'Eternatus like' than CAP 38 getting access to Knock Off and at a certain point replicating what Eternatus' various sets do is more important than literally replicating Eternatus itself, especially if that comes at the cost of the strength of sets across the spectrum.

Mortal Spin I don't really have anything to say on this move that hasn't already been said and am pretty neutral on it at the end of the day.

Partial Trapping / Phazing I brought these up before and would like to bring them up again. These mostly provide utility for defensive sets and would likely be on the niche side. Speedy phazers often tend to be overlooked.

Mud Shot A nice anti offence tool that has some nice utility, support capabiliities, and compression. Icy Wind is a hard sell, but they do the same thing while hitting different Pokémon that would otherwise sit on defensive sets for life.

Apple Acid I do actually think this is doable if we are willing to drop a lot of the coverage CAP 38 currently has. Apple Acid is just too strong with CAP 38's current kit and I don't get the impression that the community has the desire to cut coverage to enable Apple Acid to exist in a healthy spot while also aligning with our stated design goals.

Zetalz said:
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly; where do we land on 38's utility suite? During Defining Moves we kicked the major discussion on utility moves down the road, as the vast majority of moves discussed were of such low impact to not be relevant for the Stats Stage. At this stage, we erred away from high impact utility options such as Knock Off or Salt Cure, however, this is now subject to change.

I land on the side of being generous with lower impact utility moves while scrutinizing higher impact ones. Whilst set variety is a defining trait of Eternatus, that doesn't really reflect reality. The important thing imo is the internal set variety. Offensive sets really don't have much and this isn't solely a function of Eternatus's shallow movepool. If we were to bloat Eternatus's movepool with coverage, how much would realistically see use? Outside of, ironically, Ground-type coverage, not much imo.

Offensive sets generally all run the same moves with maybe one replaced for a utility move such as Recover or Agility. Defensive sets on the other hand, have a lot of internal set variety. It is also important to examine why. Defensive Eternatus has always been a set that is more than the sum of its parts because it seems, and often is, fraught with issues such as 4MSS, wanting more EVs than it can afford, item choice, and general struggles with Pokémon resiliant or immune to passive damage. Despite all this, defensive Eternatus is still a solid Pokémon across a variety of metagames because of the internal set variety on top of some solid evergreen defensive traits.

What ties it all together is that Eternatus has access to a lot of decent, but not overwhelming tools. Those small things really add up. Just in terms of moves we have Toxic, Toxic + Toxic Spikes, Air Balloon + Reflect, Dragon Tail, 1 attack, and 2 attack sets have all seen legitimate use across various formats. This isn't getting into the genuinely impressive item variety and EV spreads. All together these are 'defensive Eternatus,' but the sets all tend to do the same thing: use Eternatus's innate traits to check things and then expand that via its utility movepool to a couple of extra things. Individually, all of these permutations of defensive Eternatus have significant issues, but as a whole they make Eternatus into a very solid defensive Pokémon despite the only universal element being Recover.

That last bit is how I think we can enable CAP 38 to emulate defensive Eternatus sets. CAP 38's typing, bulk, speed, and access to Recover is already going to let it defensively check a fair few metagame staples. Being generous with the decent, but not 'every set will use this utility move' gives it the best chance at succeeding. Most teams are not going to need defensive CAP 38 with x move for y threat, but a few of them will and cumulatively those add up. No matter what defensive CAP 38 does it will be stonewalled by a lot, but as long as it has a solid set of tools that enable it to adapt to an evolving metagame it should be fine even if the offensive set is better.

Zetalz said:
With our stats now a known factor, and after some (very limited) testing on the test server, there's been growing concern that 38's Defensive sets are currently far less viable than Offensive, to the point of unplayability for some. There is a growing movement for the remainder of 38's competitive stages to focus on lifting up defensive sets, which after a stalled discussion in Secondary Ability, has now lead us to this stage as the means to address this flaw. Are we willing to deviate from our previously stated direction of lower-impact utility options in the pursuit of 'fixing' 38's Defensive sets? If so, where is the new line regarding powerful utility to be drawn? In addition, are there any angles for offensive moves to also accomplish this goal, without pushing Offensive over the edge? Another thing to consider is that although our stated design goal for Defensive was 2A to emulate Etern, we may end up drifting out of this strict design toward something like 3A with bulk EVs, or 1A Double Util, or something else entirely. Is this outcome something to avoid, or should we allow for deviation in the pursuit of ensuring 38 has a defensive set, regardless of the form it takes?

The beginning of this response may come across as 'doomposting' even if I don't think my answer as a whole is. So I think it is important to have an honest look at how we ended up at a point where this question needed to be asked in the first place. I don't think it is an issue with the initial concept. Eternatus does have pretty limited access to utility moves. While it does have solid utility options, these are mostly limited to its STABs and doesn't really include anything crazy. It is pretty reasonable for us to want CAP 38 to emulate that, but using Eternatus specifically as our Uber to emulate comes with some pretty forseeable issues given the CAP processes.

At each stage we are asked to evaluate things in a vacuum and not to polljump. This is completely reasonable and a good policy. However, it runs into issues when emulating a complex Pokémon that can be distilled down to 'more than the sum of its parts.' At a granular level there isn't any standout element of Eternatus besides arguably its Speed and access to Recovery. If you examine all of Eternatus's traits individually they largely settle between average and decent. That being said, Eternatus's efficacy as an offensive and defensive Pokémon stems from how this amalgamation of synergistic traits accentuate a fundamentally solid base kit.

It shouldn't be surprising that this is the outcome when we've knowingly been accumulating debt with each stage of the process and have consistently told ourselves well we will adress x in y future stage. At some point that debt is due and it seems that is time is now. Personally, the clear answer Zetalz's question is yes. Not doing so is missing the forest for the trees. It is confusing to me that we would tunnel vision so hard on emulating Eternatus's shallow movepool to such a degree that it ends up costing CAP 38 the ability to emulate far more important aspects such as the ability to actually run a good defensive set.

Furthermore, I don't understand why this specifically is where we would draw the line. There are a lot of aspects of CAP 38 that deviate far more from Eternatus than giving it some lower impact utility moves. We can take a step back, say here is CAP 38 so far. It has differences from Eternatus, what can we give to enable 'Eternatus style' defensive sets to be sucessful without breaking the mould? We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't know the metagame well enough to know where the line for powerful utility should be drawn other than we should have enough faith in our TLTs to be reasonable. Yeah, moves such as Salt Cure or Ceaseless Edge should clearly be off limits. However, there are surely a few options out there that are reasonable fits. We should be examining how defensive Eternatus sets function and what CAP 38 can do to emulate them. CAP 38 is supposed to be inspired by Eternatus, not be a carbon copy of it and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is counterproductive.

Generally speaking, if we are trying to be mini Eternatus then defensive CAP 38 should be a consideration on teams that are looking for role compression against the top tier Pokémon CAP 38 naturally checks while having options for some specific techs. Defensive CAP 38 will and should be stonewalled by some important Pokémon, but that isn't an issue if it checks key threats and synergises with Pokémon that covers those weaknesses. We don't appear to be there at the moment, but I do think we will get there.

Deckus Carde · Saturday at 10:50 AM

hi guys it's been a day. I have new thoughts.

Elaborating on old arguments (I put them in spoilers since you can already get a general idea of my thoughts from my initial post)

Feldirion said:
:corviknight: 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 239-283 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

that is a surprising amount of damage. however even with the inclusion of mystical fire we do still have a significant number of defensive checks

252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Equilibra: 135-161 (33 - 39.4%) -- 16.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Moltres: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-112 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Venomicon: 103-121 (27.6 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 138-164 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

yeah that's all my thoughts on the matter

If we don't end up using Mystical Fire, I'd like to suggest adding Snarl to its moveset for the same SpA drop.

my thoughts on putting will-o-wisp on for the current meta stem from one thing and one thing only: :Obliteryx:Obliteryx.

Its amazing physical bulk, access to Beak Blast, and the fact that it's found on >30% of teams (if i'm reading MunchStats correctly) means that physical attackers in general are currently suffering in the meta. Running any physical attacker against :Obliteryx:Obliteryx means they end up either dying to Beak Blast, getting burned from Beak Blast, giving it a stat boost by using Swords Dance / Bulk Up, or any combination of the three.

If :Obliteryx:Obliteryx wasn't so common, I'd say Will-o-Wisp could be an interesting utility option. However, as it is, the meta is extremely punishing towards physical attackers, and I believe Will-o-Wisp on a good Pokemon that outspeeds the majority of the metagame would make it downright inhospitable.

For the most part, I'm seeing a consensus that utility must come in the form of either a physical or status move. I personally agree on this, as giving this thing any more potentially meaningful special moves is not going to end well for whoever's in charge of balancing it.
:astrolotl:Will-o-Wisp - see above.
:weavile:Knock Off - standard utility option with minimal damage. It'll give defensive sets a lot more utility for the cost of 1 moveslot. Also, I may be ignoring something, but why would it be centralizing? It's both on faster Pokemon and also has so many other users.
:glimmora:Mortal Spin - Thematic with the Poison type, and serves as a method of both status and hazard removal. My concern with this one is hazard removal on a powerful, fast, and hard-to-kill Pokemon might be a bit too much: I can see a lot of offensive sets using this for chip. I would also like to point out it doesn't really work well if you're trying to spread burn, as you have to get burn first before spinning. I can't tell whether this is a good or bad thing.
:garganacl:Salt Cure - what. What is this. This is worse than the fire coverage idea. Salt Cure threatens a lot of Steel-types effectively, as it starts severely chipping their HP and puts any Steel-type without a recovery move at risk. I don't like this at all.
:pajantom:Partial Trapping - I don't see the appeal of trapping moves in the first place, since if you land it on the intended target they either just hit you or set up. However, I do see hope in this, as we can potentially trap and pick off Pokemon that have bad matchups against 38.

Addressing other people's questions (because I forgot to do so in my initial post)

Zetalz said:
Firstly, as we always start with the Movesets Stage; are there any moves in the Required or Optional moves list that need to be reassessed or cut, now that we have our Stats? Something with high volatilty like Apple Acid is an obvious contender for removal, but other moves like Will-O-Wisp and stronger Fire Coverage may be subject to re-evaluation. In the same vein, is there merit to entertaining any other coverage at this point? If yes, in what form?

As previously mentioned, I am against Will-o-Wisp, stronger Fire coverage, and other coverage in general. I also think Apple Acid is a move that we should avoid, as the 100% SpD drop is too good a secondary effect for it to not severely affect offensive sets and remove the few counters we have. The Required Moves, on the other hand, are a reasonable set for it to have. I do not think anything from there should be cut.

Zetalz said:
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly; where do we land on 38's utility suite? During Defining Moves we kicked the major discussion on utility moves down the road, as the vast majority of moves discussed were of such low impact to not be relevant for the Stats Stage. At this stage, we erred away from high impact utility options such as Knock Off or Salt Cure, however, this is now subject to change.

At the moment, it appears like we're focusing more on raw damage than utility. Even discussion around Mystical Fire has been mainly focused on its damage output rather than its secondary effect. Our current utility moves, however, are as follows:

Leech Seed, Toxic, Scorching Sands, Mystical Fire

A defensive set can function with only four utility moves, but would it be enough to justify using it over the very powerful offensive set? I would say the fact we can only hinder attacking Pokemon and spread only damaging status (and possibly burn) is not enough to justify running defensive over any other defensive Pokemon.
:mollux:Mollux can spread burn.
:snaelstrom:Snaelstrom can spread toxic and other chip.
:hatterene:Hatterene is already a powerful Mystical Fire special wall.
We need some sort of utility that would set us apart from any of the above.

Zetalz said:
With our stats now a known factor, and after some (very limited) testing on the test server, there's been growing concern that 38's Defensive sets are currently far less viable than Offensive, to the point of unplayability for some. There is a growing movement for the remainder of 38's competitive stages to focus on lifting up defensive sets, which after a stalled discussion in Secondary Ability, has now lead us to this stage as the means to address this flaw. Are we willing to deviate from our previously stated direction of lower-impact utility options in the pursuit of 'fixing' 38's Defensive sets? If so, where is the new line regarding powerful utility to be drawn? In addition, are there any angles for offensive moves to also accomplish this goal, without pushing Offensive over the edge? Another thing to consider is that although our stated design goal for Defensive was 2A to emulate Etern, we may end up drifting out of this strict design toward something like 3A with bulk EVs, or 1A Double Util, or something else entirely. Is this outcome something to avoid, or should we allow for deviation in the pursuit of ensuring 38 has a defensive set, regardless of the form it takes?

I would say higher impact utility would be worth it, as long as they also provide little to no benefit to the offensive sets. As stated earlier, the best way to go about this is by giving said utility in the form of a physical or status move.
I don't really see a reason for us to put the primary focus on making a 2A set. The most important part of this is ensuring 38 actually has a viable defensive set, with the nature of the set being less important. If we do this right, 38 could run any of those three options in a defensive set (example: :equilibra:Equilibra)

quziel · Saturday at 2:11 PM

I've been for Knock since typing was picked. Basically every single Poison/Grass that gets something even close to Knock both runs it and makes it a key part of its viability. Vileplume ran Leech/CGas/Sludge/Sap last gen in NU and excelled with it, using the combo of the utility moves to just grind through the format's steels. Venusaur-Mega loves the move, as well, Steel-types exist, and lets be real Amoonguss would probably approach OU if it got the move.

Yes, it means we're straying a bit further from Eternatus's Dmax/Flame/Toxic/Recover sets, but you gotta put that into context. Dragon/Fire is a really good coverage combo, and we do not have anything that remotely approaches that. The answers to that combo are Bulky Waters, Bulky Fairies, and Ho-Oh, and Toxic hits all three. Our equivalent combo is probably Grass/Ground, and that combo is fairly trivially answered by every flying ever, a group that are historically insanely weak to Knock Off.

I don't believe in Wisp. Giga/Epower/Wisp is a set that could be run, but realistically speaking why am I ever running it over its competition.

Mortal Spin would be viable, but equally feels even more disruptive than Knock Off does.

Pipotchi · Saturday at 5:13 PM

Zetalz said:
With our stats now a known factor, and after some (very limited) testing on the test server, there's been growing concern that 38's Defensive sets are currently far less viable than Offensive, to the point of unplayability for some. There is a growing movement for the remainder of 38's competitive stages to focus on lifting up defensive sets, which after a stalled discussion in Secondary Ability, has now lead us to this stage as the means to address this flaw. Are we willing to deviate from our previously stated direction of lower-impact utility options in the pursuit of 'fixing' 38's Defensive sets? If so, where is the new line regarding powerful utility to be drawn? In addition, are there any angles for offensive moves to also accomplish this goal, without pushing Offensive over the edge? Another thing to consider is that although our stated design goal for Defensive was 2A to emulate Etern, we may end up drifting out of this strict design toward something like 3A with bulk EVs, or 1A Double Util, or something else entirely. Is this outcome something to avoid, or should we allow for deviation in the pursuit of ensuring 38 has a defensive set, regardless of the form it takes?

Theres levels of compromise available here to reach a viable defensive set (which seems to be the last important goal) and I think it falls into the following tiers

Tier 1: Relatable
Knock Off: No I wasnt the biggest knock off fan to begin with, but I almost feel forced to support it now if it means it takes the spot of more ugly options. Knock Off doesnt really play like Toxic, because it doesnt allow you to slowly beat defensive mons standing in front of you, and it doesnt allow you personally to beat anything. I mean you guys know what Knock Off does, and its used by every single OU mon that gets it for good reason. Its permanent progress despite not being that much like Toxic, and thats a defining feature that we wanted.
Will O Wisp: Ive been a fan of wisp although other people's takes have left me more unsure currently. I think its pretty good at doubling down at beating boosters that you Should beat but can actually push through you- Tusk, Rev, Zama, and there becomes more mons that you can check and end the sweeping potential of with this move. You're fast which increases its effectiveness, and it definitely has a pretty clear link to Eternatus as a standard status move that deals dmg over time.
Earth Power: I feel strongly that this should be our coverage, we chose this because we want to beat Glowking and it makes for good 3 move coverage, and by all means if this means we have to lose out on any of the fire moves in order to balance it out by allowing strong defensive checks in certain Steels then so be it. If we drop down to Scorching Sands we no longer threaten any sliver of a 2hko on Glowking with Life Orb, and unless we get every turn right AND hold LO we are pretty likely to get nullified pretty hard by this mon all game.
Meteor Beam: surely noone is against this atp

Tier 2: Unrelatable, but not strictly against Concept Assessment
Apple Acid: Im not gunna pretend that this is replicating Toxic's permanent progress or anything, but it isnt listed as strictly anti-concept like something like boosting, so its ability to improve a bulky route can be respected. But with this amount of stats, especially SpA, mixed with Meteor it seems far too strong for where we're at.
Fire coverage: I have this here because I believe the original goal was to only have 3 real coverage types (and meteor beam) however theres only so many moveslots, and it can definitely be used to make up 3 move coverage combinations. Although I do think Fire Blast/Flamethrower could be a bit overwhelming to play around, destroying the mirror matchup with ease, frying Corv and Libra (and I guess balloon Ghold) who are some of the last decent checks. Mystical Fire I don't really buy as a true defensive tool for defensive mons but its something that could be mild enough to explore.

Tier 3: Abandonment of Concept Assessment
Mortal Spin: This is defying the concept assessment 2 and I dont think theres a reason to ever dip this low when there's other options and also defensive abilities that can grant purpose. While it does poison (lol) its purpose is to remove hazards, and regardless of how weak or strong it may be at doing so, this would be the defining move and purpose of a defensive set. If we consider this, we could also consider things like Spikes, Uturn, every other route seems fair game. These are clearly unfitting moves so it really doesn't make sense why Mortal Spin would be considered. I realise I've already said this a lot in Discord lol but I havent posted it here yet, so here it is.

I think we can deviate from the path a little. But I would rather stay closer to making something like Eternatus than just fulfilling a goal of just making ANY defensive mon with the primary goal of viability. I could slap together 10 different grass/poison defensive OU mons if I had no restriction or goals, with access to every move I wanted, sure. To me this is just not the purpose of CAP and its kinda a waste of us having these long discussions for weeks. I'd rather someone push for a route they think is both a strong fit and viable and be proven wrong because if the purpose is learning then we should be willing to swing and miss, instead of not even swing. Hot take- it doesn't actually matter if CAPs undershoot as long as there was a quality discussion and an effort was made to actualize something inside the goalposts of the concept.

In my opinion, Knock Off and/or Wisp are both worth moving forward with here. A big "issue" is that there isnt very much that lies in the boundary of "stronger defensive option" that doesnt completely spill over into abandonment of concept assessment. For this reason I would like to also push for a strong defensive ability for secondary, since it seems like the defensive set is quite an important goal for people, and it needs to be more than just an afterthought- but movepool just isn't going to be able to construct a meaningful defensive set while remaining within the boundaries we set alone. We need an ability too. There are plenty of strong abilities that dont strictly go against Concept Assessment that can round out this Pokemon's defensive side very nicely, and now that Ive stopped looking at the defensive set as a secondary goal and been willing to consider stronger abilities it feels very doable.

spoo · Saturday at 5:19 PM

Not going to rehash all of the things people have already said about how our defensive set is lacking, but basically every good defensive mon in this tier has either exceptional utility or essential utility and right now we have neither of those. Our defensive profile and stats alone can't carry us. What I mean by exceptional utility is something like magic bounce hatt, wishpass alo, sticky hold shox or regen mons, kitsunoh being the #1 libra denier, etc, uncommon traits that are either so broadly powerful or so unique that they just brute-force viability / a niche. The other side of this is essential utility, common things that the vast majority of teams will always need; hazard setting & removing is the easiest example, but stuff like toxic and knock arguably fall into this camp. We need to answer the central question of "why would anyone actually bring this pokemon?", which is a question that comes up every process usually around the secondary / movesets stage, and this time it's not just a matter of viability but one of concept success; having an effective defensive set, like etern does, is a huge part of pulling off this concept, and needs to be actualized even if it means doing so in a slightly less etern-esque way. This is one case where the ends probably justify the means. We don't want to miss the forest for the trees etc etc basically what guigil said above.

Salt Cure falls on the side of just brute-forcing a strong defensive set into existence, but unfortunately does this a little too well - I think this move is simply too powerful on our kit and should be off the table. Apple acid is in a similar boat for me.

The interesting options to me are Knock, Wisp, Morta Spin, and Strength Sap. I think Wisp is neat on paper, but if I'm being honest with myself, I really don't think it will move the needle for us. Strength Sap is sorta weird because our high HP offsets potential gains, and we barely get anything from some of our projected switch-ins like Libra / Mollux / Slowking-G, but it's nonetheless a powerful move with undeniable benefits. More of a sidegrade to 50% recovery than a straight upgrade. Knock and Mortal Spin are probably our strongest options. Mortal Spin lets us contribute to the hazard game, and I think there'd certainly be a niche for us on double removal structures (which are common and very good, given how unreliable most solo removers are in this tier). However, this is probably the least etern-esque route up for consideration, and as much has already been said during CA, so take that into account I suppose. Knock feels like the easiest solution to raising the value floor of our defensive set, but I have a hard time evaluating if it's actually enough juice or not. I could see a world where defensive sets still struggle even with this move.

I'm also beginning to question the necessity of Earth Power compared to Scorching Sands. One way to increase the strength of defensive sets relative to offensive sets and reduce the opportunity to cost to using them is simply to make offensive sets less potent. I'm not sure we need 90BP Ground-type coverage with this stat spread, anyway.

viol and bass · Saturday at 6:09 PM

are there any moves in the Required or Optional moves list that need to be reassessed or cut, now that we have our Stats?

Yeah, I'd take off Apple Acid unfortunately. There's some merit in enabling defensive 2 attacks sets but it likely breaks offensive ones without curtailing our coverage significantly so it's probably a no go. I was initially opposed to weaker versions of really good coverage types but it's probably worth considering specifying Scorching Sands over Earth Power just because of how potent that move is for us in breaking would-be checks. Might be a way to bring sets into better balance.

is there merit to entertaining any other coverage at this point?

There's merit in entertaining it. If there's coverage that makes 2 attacks + utility sets work better, it might be worth considering. It's hard for me to see what that would look like and how this wouldn't increase the potency of offensive sets, but I won't dismiss additional coverage entirely.

where do we land on 38's utility suite?

Similarly to what Bumbo said, I like the idea of enabling defensive sets by granting a number of useful options, none of which make fat sets work on their own, but which in total amount to a good and flexible kit for fat sets. I'm on board with Knock (although I want to note that it's probably not enough on its own). Phazing is inoffensive and maybe marginally useful. I don't have too much of a problem with Mortal Spin. Superficially detracts from the eternatus vibe while giving a reason for fat sets to be used on some teams, which indirectly benefits the eternatus vibe to a greater degree. Can understand if that argument doesn't sway people but I don't think it's a massive diversion from our mission personally. Wisp I'd be fine with, I can see it opening up certain defensive sets a bit.

Are we willing to deviate from our previously stated direction of lower-impact utility options in the pursuit of 'fixing' 38's Defensive sets? If so, where is the new line regarding powerful utility to be drawn? In addition, are there any angles for offensive moves to also accomplish this goal, without pushing Offensive over the edge?

Sure, I think it should be expanded a little bit. Salt Cure is way too much and should be a nonstarter. Knock is very worth considering at this point. Hazard setting and pivoting might be a place to draw the line.

Another thing to consider is that although our stated design goal for Defensive was 2A to emulate Etern, we may end up drifting out of this strict design toward something like 3A with bulk EVs, or 1A Double Util, or something else entirely. Is this outcome something to avoid, or should we allow for deviation in the pursuit of ensuring 38 has a defensive set, regardless of the form it takes?

If the fat set is 3 attacks Recover, that's fine. Etern itself has actually run fat 3 attacks sets at times, and it's certainly not far off the mark. 1 attack double utility is probably alright if it works, as long as the mon doesn't feel passive, which is where it would start to not feel like Eternatus. I think defensive sets will have a lot of flexibility, and that's a good thing.

Zetalz · Saturday at 7:21 PM

Alright gang, been a little over 48 hours and discussion has been a lil slow compared to the usual for movesets, so move submissions are now officially open.

Wasn't quite as much discussion and thus consensus on the questions I asked, so I'm not going to draw too heavy conclusions on them at this moment, so please continue answering and debating them while submitting moves at your discretion. I'm sure consensus will arise with full move subs on the table, so hopefully we'll get there, but more input is always preferred.

Going to officially slash Strong Fire Coverage (Flamethrower/Fire Blast) & Apple Acid from our existing moves list, as there was little to 0 support for either. Will-O-Wisp I'm considering on cutting, but it's fate I think will be tied to other utility options that get submitted, so I'm going to leave it in limbo for a while. Treat it like it's not there, if you wish to submit/support it yourself.

There's been some small discussion on the merit of EP vs Scorching Sands for 38, but I'd like to here some more coherent arguments about it. To my mind we shouldn't jump to pre-emptively nerf our chosen primary coverage type without a strong case to do so. I'd be quicker to axe optional coverage like Mystical Fire before axing EP, if the intent is to improve counterplay to 38.

Not gonna be making any sweeping approvals on utility moves mentioned yet since I'd like to hear submitters and supporters fuller arguments for or against such. I will however be putting the axe to Salt Cure due to it's near-universal negative reception. Once we have a clearer idea on what utility we're pushing for, we can hopefully come to a consensus on how to structure 38's utility pool. Worst come to worst I'll consult with the TLT to make a decision if thread goes nowhere (hopefully not the case!)

That's it. I'll chime in periodically to approve or ban submitted moves. No hard deadline on this stage since we're gonna be here for a bit anyway until Art wraps up. Reminder that if someone has submitted a move you don't need to submit it yourself, a simple support post will do!

TheShowdownHero · Saturday at 7:28 PM

I would like to submit Mystical Fire,I personally still believe itd be a great move on cap 38, and its low risk enough where I doubt itd break anything on the offensive set,and like was established before,we do need to buff defensive sets in some way or form. I believe this is our best bet at doing it.

quziel · Saturday at 8:14 PM

Utility Moves:

Knock Off as I've said before is my pick for the "big ticket" item. It has the highest impact on our counterplay, and that's sorta what any "anchor" utility move needs to do. Our defensive set is going to be running Sludge Bomb, because we're going on teams to check woger, and that means whatever we choose needs to have good synergy with Sludge Bomb + Mfire (Epower doesn't work cause being hard walled by libra forever sux). Wisp is the other competition, but being a free switchin forever for Mollux is also going to suck, and idk, I just don't buy it as our "anchor".

Now that we've "anchored" our set, we need to round out a bit more. Clear Smog is a pretty easy move submission, taking the place of Sludge Bomb in helping us deal with Woger, and then allowing us to basically never lose to something like Zama, a the cost of being sorta a bit shit. Still, you want a sandbox to play with. Toxic and Tspikes are both easy inclusions, and I could maybe see Tspikes getting use, though I also don't believe in it.

I still want Recycle. It could create a very funny set. End quote.

I'm not a huge fan of the "traditional" disruption tools, namely Encore and Taunt, as they feel sorta off to me in a way I can't really articulate. Encore would probably be quite solid, just as it was quite solid on Cresc, but also I sorta hate Encore. Taunt I suspect would be bad.

I'm not a fan of shifting towards the hazard game (barring Tspikes).

We should also probably decide which recovery options we want to give 38. I think I'm in favor of the bog standard Recover/Milk Drink, as I feel that the defensive set doesn't want to really deal with the unreliability implied by Synthesis, but this is very much 6.1 one way, half a dozen the other. I'd not complain if we went Synth and just sorta say that we should be easily broken by Woger + Glowking cores.

Offensive Moves:

Epower vs Sands is an interesting question; I think this really comes down to how confident we are in the offensive set and whether we'd like to err high or low. Main difference its going to make is giving the LO set a roll to OHKO standard Mollux / offensive Ghold. I think given that our speed tier really is that good I'd prefer to go with Sands instead of Epower, but I'd not stake my mons career on that being the right option. Still, we've had a bit more success this gen with releasing a bit weak and tuning up compared to vice-versa.

Yeah, don't give it Fire Blast nor Flamethrower, we likely don't need them.

Acid Spray is simultaneously almost definitely bad and very cool, give it.

I sorta think we should consider Power Gem? I don't have a great justification here, but its just sorta neat for us?

TheShowdownHero · Saturday at 8:46 PM

I second clear smog, The very concept is such a good idea ,its great on defensive sets via a speedy way to remove stat boosts.

But I would prefer if we ran earth power,since I personally believe running scorching sands defeats the purpose of ground coverage,since 70 base power is low. I very well could be wrong about this and I welcome someone to prove me wrong,but I just can't see it as of right now.

Deckus Carde · Saturday at 10:04 PM

Regarding dropping Earth Power and only using Scorching Sands:

:unknown:CAP38 (Spoob) vs :shox:Shox
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shox: 133-159 (27.9 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shox: 130-153 (27.3 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shox: 136-161 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
:unknown:Spoob vs :dragapult:Dragapult
252 SpA Venusaur Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 96-113 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- 32.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 92-108 (29 - 34%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO

Against opponents in which Scorching Sands is 2x as effective as either of our STABs, it only deals slightly more than Sludge Bomb and is outdamaged by Sludge Wave. This output does not good coverage make, and this makes it a dead moveslot unless you're up against something that is at least two stages weaker to Ground than it is Grass or Poison. Unless Earth Power is slotted, I cannot see any offensive set using Ground-type coverage if not to check a specific Pokemon.

traceyscetchit · Saturday at 10:42 PM

I'd like to second all ~25 sentences of quziel's post. Knock off is the most logical strong utility, and the weaker options like recycle, phazing, power gem, acid spray, and clear smog all make sense to me, even if the only one that I think sees real usage is clear smog, and even that's probably worse than sludge bomb.

Deckus Carde said:
Against opponents in which Scorching Sands is 2x as effective as either of our STABs, it only deals slightly more than Sludge Bomb and is outdamaged by Sludge Wave. This output does not good coverage make, and this makes it a dead moveslot unless you're up against something that is at least two stages weaker to Ground than it is Grass or Poison. Unless Earth Power is slotted, I cannot see any offensive set using Ground-type coverage if not to check a specific Pokemon.

Of the viable pokemon that resist both grass and poison tiered CAP or OU, 10 of them are weak to ground. Scorching sands' target list is huge, it hits: :Ceruledge:, :Chuggalong:, :Gholdengo:, :Iron Moth:, :Kingambit:, :Kitsunoh:, :Mollux:, :glimmora:,:heatran:,:Pecharunt:, :Ramnarok:, and :Slowking-Galar:. This is not a dead moveslot. 2 matchups where the difference is 2x when sands is being used for pokemon where the difference is 4x or even 8x is missing the point.

As for your specific examples, both of these pokemon are breakable with scorching sands sets. :Shox: gets pp stalled out of milk drink after it gets poisoned by a sludge bomb, as scorching sands combined with poison damage is dealing 40.3%-45.8% of shox's hp per turn. :Dragapult: is a check, but cannot be used to wall us due to a lack of recovery. Given enough switch in opportunities, scorching sands sets are still able to chip through nearly the entire metagame, it just takes a more reasonable length of time to do so.

Finally, scorching sands has a strong secondary effect. Any analysis reducing scald to simply an 80 bp water type move would find scald a terrible move.

SunshineFuture · Sunday at 12:53 AM

Not even gonna bother submitting an offensive set since that's pretty much done as is. Instead, I'm gonna formally submit the problem child.

Moveset Submission

Name: Physically Defensive
Move 1: Sludge Bomb / Clear Smog
Move 2: Mystical Fire
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Flower Veil
Item: Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe OR 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Tera: idk, Ground?
Nature: Bold / Timid

Knock Off is frankly the only serious candidate at the moment for a single high-impact utility move to justify defensive CAP38 I've heard. Item removal is great as always, and always outspeeding Woger and scaring it with a Poison move helps it stand out compared to other Knock users. Knock Off + Mystical Fire also gives CAP38 something to do that doesn't leave it as Turbo Mollux. While it doesn't really fundamentally shake up specific matchups the way Toxic does for Etern, unless the door opens up for Corrosion Toxic (or there's some magical option nobody's come up with yet), Knock Off is basically all we've got to work with.
While Sludge Bomb may be preferred for taking advantage of our Special Attack stat and the Poison chance, Clear Smog is a very good candidate for a "secondary" utility move that doesn't define the mon but expands its defensive possibilities. I think no matter what happens, Clear Smog should absolutely be given at this stage.
EVs are either to maximize bulk or to speed, and then the rest going into the other side of it.

Briefly, I will say that Mortal Spin probably does not do enough to push the needle for Defensive CAP38 in terms of use and Will-o-Wisp leads CAP38 to just becoming Turbo Mollux, which considering everything else, is not gonna be the play if we want it to ever be seriously run over Mollux. Taunt and Encore feel anti-concept, not to mention annoying. Phazing would be neat I guess, but like Mortal Spin I don't think it moves the needle.

Lastly, I will reiterate that I am honestly not happy with Knock Off, because it isn't exactly "Etern-like" in how the move is used (it has a one-time effect per mon instead of being "consistently" useful, and like I said it doesn't fundamentally change any matchups). But at this point, we're kind of backed into a corner where there is basically little else in this stage alone that even stands a chance at making defensive sets viable beyond the New Toy phase. Maybe there's some secondary that could pair with Knock Off to make this set worth the trouble??? I dunno. This is just what I've got.

Spammernoob · Sunday at 2:24 AM

I think we are taking options off the table too quickly.

Next, is the question of Salt Cure. I'm not convinced it should be taken off the table here. I feel like we can benchmark it against Leech Seed, and while it is obviously stronger, we've concluded that Leech Seed is not sufficient for our defensive set, so I'm not sure how we made the leap that Salt Cure is too much? I feel like this should be open to discussion at the very least, even if the option is unpopular.

Personally, I think these two options adhere most closely to Eternatus' playstyle while also achieving viability. I'm fine if people don't like them and prefer an option like Knock Off, but I really don't think taking them off the table immediately is a good plan at all.

Apple Acid, on the other hand, can probably be discounted on the grounds that it benefits offensive sets too much. This is very sad.

Anyways, the rest of the post is some of my thoughts on utility question, and defensive sets. Most of this was drafted yesterday, just with some edits / polishing.

First, I want to examine how defensive Eternatus sets function, and how Toxic works within its toolkit. Honestly, I don't have a lot of confidence in this, so if I troll then feel free to correct me.

To see how CAP38's defensive sets can compete with offensive ones, we can look at how this interaction plays out for Eternatus. I think the two key points are team style and tailored matchups. Obviously, a large part is teams needing a switch-in to threats like Scarf Kyogre, lack of Poison-types in the tier (relevant for absorbing Toxic, moreso in SS), and a general offensive lean of Ubers. However, I do think it's relevant to consider how defensive Eternatus can beat bulky setup (CM) Pokemon and cripple Ho-oh with Toxic (or Dragon Tail, kinda), a class of Pokemon that offensive Eternatus struggles against (not Ho-oh for Meteor Beam ig).

Furthermore, Toxic is a tool that scales well with Eternatus' bulk; Toxic allows Eternatus to spam Recover to win engagements, and the damage doesn't scale with SpA or Speed investment (though Speed does help to get it off vs. Taunt Pokemon, or spam Recover to survive).

Interestingly, when looking through samples for both SV and SS Ubers, SpD Etern seemed the most common. I feel like this is an effect of the meta / available Pokemon in Ubers. For bulkier teams, there's not a lot of options for Pokemon with recovery to fill out 3-4 slots, especially when looking for key resists like Water; this is a lot less of the case in CAP.

What does this mean for CAP38? It gives us an idea of how to differentiate offensive vs. defensive sets. My main takeaway is that we should find a key Pokemon or group of Pokemon that CAP38's offensive sets struggle into, and see if we can give it tools to beat these difficult matchups. However, we have to be careful to not pick a move that offensive sets can take advantage of.

There's a few major hurdles for CAP38 defensive sets.

Firstly, our 2A coverage is bad, and our current utility options just don't fix that at all. quziel mentioned this in his post, and I will transplant the relevant section here:

quziel said:
Dragon/Fire is a really good coverage combo, and we do not have anything that remotely approaches that. The answers to that combo are Bulky Waters, Bulky Fairies, and Ho-Oh, and Toxic hits all three.

Our 3A coverage (Grass / Poison / Ground) is very strong, but any two is kinda awkward, and the CAP metagame is more resilient to status / passive damage than Ubers so it's difficult to fill that hole as well.

Secondly, defensive CAP38 sets face a lot more competition than Eternatus does. In terms of defensive Poisons, CAP has Mollux, Slowking-G, and Pecharunt; all of these perform the general duties of a Poison-type (Fighting + Fairy resist) while also having various other desirable traits (pivoting, hazards / removal, etc.). Even though our typing's defensive profile is solid, it's not stellar to the point of justifying us over the competition; Our main assets here are Speed and lack of Ground weakness, though the latter does not help much since we lose to Ground + Ice coverage and Equilibra anyways (at least we're OK into Ting-Lu).

Finally, it's very difficult to justify defensive CAP38 over offensive. Our stat spread didn't really have many defensive benchmarks, so it's hard for me to say conclusively, but it really does seem hard; from limited testing, I always felt like I'd rather have a 3rd attack over the utility slot for CAP38. As mentioned before, we should look at specific matchups (probably not just one Pokemon, unless it is very defining) to try to incentivize defensive investment.

Thoughts on Various Utility
Salt Cure
I feel like Salt Cure instantly solves all our issues. It enables 2A sets by providing pseudo-coverage vs Water and Steel types. The passive damage + Recover play pattern is proven on Garganacl, and mirrors Eternatus play patterns. I think this is definitely the most pro-concept in terms of mirroring Eternatus playstyle.I feel like the ban is premature? Maybe it's too strong, but I don't think the evidence rises to the bar where I'd remove it as an option outright. This is not comparable at all to Apple Acid, which has obvious applications on offensive sets.

Knock Off
Personally, I don't really like the feeling of this one. Mainly, Knock Off encourages hit-and-run playstyle with hazards, which doesn't feel a lot like Etern; while Toxic can be hit-and-run, it also enables staying in and grinding out in certain matchups, which is just not an option with Knock. We are sacrificing some of Eternatus' playstyle for viability here. If we did not have Ground coverage guaranteed, I might be a bigger fan of this, as it would open up MUs vs Fire-types (mostly Mollux). As-is, it feels a bit inelegant, but probably gets us to the point of viability.

Mortal Spin
This option compromises heavily on CA2, where we decided we wouldn't play into the hazards game. However, I suppose that is an actualization guideline that is lower priority than having multiple viable sets (even though I'd rather not compromise it). In conjunction with Mystical Fire, which can pressure most Steel-types, Mortal Spin probably works solidly as a removal option (maybe secondary on teams that really need it) and I suppose there's a world where CAP38 can be used on the same team as Slowking-Galar for Kyurem support?

Other Options
I think it's possible to play into our Speed and tailor our defensive set to beat a certain archetype, like how Cresceidon targets offense and is basically dead weight vs fat. Basically, we're looking to specialize to carve out a niche. Something like Heart Swap / Topsy Turvy to punish setup while leveraging our speed is probably workable, though it is pretty matchup-fishy and I'm 99% sure people will hate on it. People have expressed distaste for Encore / Taunt, and they probably don't feel right here (even though they'd be strong). Acid Spray is probably fine here as well, no one uses this move but maybe there's an application?

Alternatively, we give up on forcing 2A + utility and run with 3A + Recover w/ defensive investment. I think on principle this works, though I'd have to see relevant calcs to be convinced.

Finally, I'll discuss some moves that probably are fine supplemental, but don't really get us to viability. Clear Smog and/or phazing seem reasonable here, as anti-setup options for defensive. Recycle seems funny for niche Meteor Beam applications. Cosmic Power or Stockpile (if we're worried about power level) are interesting, but probably not high priority right now. Partial trapping like Infestation seems niche, but potentially useful.

DaddyBuzzwole · Monday at 1:00 PM

in terms of utility, here's what i've been kicking around in my mind:

knock off: i kinda vibe with item denial being our "permanent progress that few things are immune to" thing. although i think knock is kind of boring and cheap and i'd prefer corrosive gas, i did some statistical analysis and found that knock works better as a toxic analogue:
- ubers has 33 pokemon above c rank and 8 of those (24.2%) are immune to toxic or otherwise some sort of toxic absorber:
  - :zacian-crowned::necrozma-dusk-mane::eternatus::kingambit::hatterene::glimmora::gliscor::blissey:
- meanwhile, cap has 74 pokemon above c rank, and 18 of those (24.3%) have at least some sets that can absorb knock off:
  - booster energy users: :great tusk::iron moth::iron crown::iron valiant::raging bolt:
  - status orb users: :gliscor::snaelstrom::naviathan::ursaluna:
  - single-use item users: :stratagem::chuggalong::heatran::glimmora:
  - unremovable items: :ogerpon-wellspring::shox:
  - spikes immunity + no rocks weakness + reliable recovery: :clefable::corviknight::skarmory:
- if we were to do corrosive gas instead, we'd have to add gholdengo and hatterene to the list, which would mess up the almost perfectly aligning percentages. so even though i like corrosive gas better in terms of flavor and novelty, knock off is objectively the best analogue to toxic in terms of absolute volume of relevant absorbers
salt cure: this would definitely be the best analogue to toxic in terms of etern's "1v1 me coward" playstyle, but i fear it may end up being overwhelming. it's a good enough move to make a defensive rock-type viable, putting it on something with an actual defensive typing and other damage options might be too much
clear smog: this one seems cool as a supplemental option, i support the idea of punishing setup on some defensive builds, but if our goal is "make 2a + utility viable" then i think it falls a little short of getting us there
acid spray: lol sure why not. apple acid would be hella stupid for offensive sets, but this one doesn't benefit them much because acid spray's damage is so ass that it's not worth spending the time on when you can just 2hko something with real attacks instead. so if we want something that can replicate apple acid's thing but benefit only defensive sets, this is a strong potential option for that
super fang: i've mentioned it in passing before and i think this could be an interesting way to replicate the function of dynamax cannon as a mostly-neutral click that puts pretty much everything below 50%, since neither of our stabs are quite as spammable. this could solve some problems with 2a defensive sets by replacing one of the stabs, ting-lu/tapu fini style, and simply using one of our baked-in utility moves instead of tacking on all these extras. dunno whether we want to explore this route but figured i'd at least bring it up

dex · Monday at 1:10 PM

I'm against Salt Cure. I don't think it's necessary when CAP 38 already has access to moves like Toxic and Leech Seed, and I think it's really difficult to predict how Salt Cure actually plays out in a game. It takes away a lot of Steel-types as checks, which I don't think we want since we limited Fire coverage to Mystical Fire.

I think Knock Off is fine but should be watched in PPL if it is given it.

Clear Smog is a good move that I like. I also think Super Fang is a good option as well.

Zetalz · Monday at 5:11 PM

Howdy-doo, quick check-in time.

Approvals: Clear Smog, Toxic Spikes & Acid Spray
There's pretty clear (heh) support for Clear Smog, and I think it's the exact type of tech move 38 should have it's its kit, no complaints there. Toxic Spikes is a weird one because it's not particular good, and toes the line on being concept relevant, but as far as the hazards game goes I do agree with others it's the only feasible choice for this project, and at worst doesn't get used lol. Acid Spray is quite low power and would never see use on Offensive sets, so I think it works alright as a niche tech for Defensive.

Other Things:
quz mentioned it briefly but we do need to decide what flavor of 50% recovery move 38 has at some point this stage. We could wait a few days until we have Art to make a decision, but feel free to mention your preference now, if you have one. If there's no real interest, we'll just lock-in bog standard Recover.

I closed discussion on Salt Cure early and will not be freeing it. To my mind it's by far the most volatile addition we could make to 38's kit at this stage, which feels very unnecessary when we at least have 1 other viable high-impact utility in Knock Off, which for all it's issues with this cap in particular is at least easier to gauge it's effect. The argument that Salt Cure mimics Etern's use of Toxic better than Knock is a valid one, but there comes a point where a line is to be drawn between being pro-concept and a stable addition to a nearly-complete mon's kit, which I feel Salt steps over. As guingil said before, it's more important Defensive is viable even it's not as viable as Offensive. We don't need to push for the nuclear option.

Wasn't going to approve Knock quite yet as I didn't want to shut the door on any other utility people still wanted to submit, though it may end up being preferrable to approve it sooner rather than later if there's support to, so that the rest of the stage is more informed. Would like some thoughts on this, even if you don't support Knock's inclusion.

dasit bye-bye

CAP 38 - Part 10 - Moveset Discussion

Spammernoob

Spammernoob

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less

TheShowdownHero

Deckus Carde

Feldirion

traceyscetchit

Guingil

Occasionally consistent

bumboclaat

Most problems can be solved with breakfast food

Deckus Carde

quziel

I am the Scientist now

Pipotchi

spoo

viol and bass

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less

TheShowdownHero

quziel

I am the Scientist now

TheShowdownHero

Deckus Carde

traceyscetchit

SunshineFuture

Formerly Reviloja753

Spammernoob

DaddyBuzzwole

the king of funny

dex

Melt a fire, burn the ice

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less