Got some time to kill this morning / afternoon and I wanna respond to some stuff here so here I am. If you don't want to read the whole thing then TLDR here is the discussion on what to ban here is so misguided and tone deaf that it physical makes my body coil into a ball of pure pain and torture.
This is a legit question. I know you stated you are new, so welcome to the tier! I know spell explained a good amount of the general stance on discord, but I am going to reiterate some things here in my own words for public documentation. Choice band lokix is a very strong initial hitter, but generally falls flat for the reasons below.
Hope this answers some of your questions. Basically with weavile it can do all of this but take no damage from helmets with beat up, can taunt, doesn't need to be choice locked, is naturally faster than 90% of the tier, can tera to beat its checks (band kix will only ever tera bug). Go look at replays from this UUCL (this forum section) and SCL (tournaments section), you will see a big trend of why weavile is so valuable compared to lokix.
- General tier power level: despite being able to come in and revenge kill a good chunk of pokemon, most teams are not built to where that is a huge issue when played properly. Being locked into fimp to do your maximum damage leaves you vulnerable to where your opponent gets an entire turn to set up whatever mon they have in the back turning lokix into a trade bot that has poor longevity. If you were able to keep off hazards and weaken the enemy team enough to where you are able to successfully trade, congrats! You found your win con. Getting there is never free though (going to mention here if your opponent isn't switching out their wincon cus they are at +1 cm or something then they are probably just bad and can't recognize that battles are more than just who sets up first)
- Speed: Paired with the above point and to concentrate on lokix's other moves, lokix isn't very fast for the tier. A lot of offensive threats slower than it (revavroom, excadrill, slither wing for example) all have moves they are generally happy to click (even excadrill for hazard removal / late game sweeping potential). This means not only is lokix being forced into choice locked prio moves for big threats in the tier like keldeo, latios, weavile, gren, but is also getting stuck flat footed vs a lot of slower threats to click those moves. Even in BO structures you need to make opportunities to click knock, u-turn, etc vs scarf gardevoirs and metagross', late game weavile sweepers, serperiors in general. This makes the option of being able to click these moves a lot harder as almost all of these mons can take advantage of you locking yourself into your lower speed tier (serperior needing a sub on a switch in to trade for damage / ko would be the main exception).
- Defensive Options: I think this is where your main concern comes in, but this overview is about the same discussion we have every year for any gen. Go back to SS and its conk / prim / steela depending on who you are talking to. BW you can look at shao / dragons / nidos / tini (i dont play oras / sm so i had to jump a bit sorry). Lokix is faster and is meant to break these defensive walls. It's what makes Lokix a good pokemon. The issue is how you play into the mon with a more defensive core. Big lokix damage means you need to prioritize your hazard game. Knowing what you can let get knocked so lokix does less overall damage to the answer. Lets take your skarm example for being able to switch in as I think it is the easiest to grasp. If you knock my skarm and it does 55%, but the next one only does 40. If i click roost I am getting back 10% every time. You also can't stay in freely as most skarms run brave bird. That means realistically you are getting back to over half when you check into the lokix. You obviously cant get a free switch to wall it every time, but if you are in a reactionary state that much to where lokix can come in again and again to knock freely you are probably just getting owned to put it simply. Time to wake up and make a play to win the game not autopilot to the win itself. This is also escalated by how easy it is to put multiple defensive answers on a team. Skarm + Fez has been good for a very long time. Skeledirge is at its best with tera fairy anyways, making it fine to get knocked off. Heatran can fish for flame bodies, same with talonflame. Tinkaton can steal its band to make it hit less effectively. Mandibuzz can sit on it all day if you play it right. Tera hydrapple can NP, recover, and chip with helmet if the team needs a set like that. All of these you can combo into my next point.
- Can't keep up hazards? Their team is probably just better: If it is really to the point where band lokix is coming in and not taking 25%, because you can't keep up hazards vs your opponent on top of not being able to chip down lokix with the 10 mons that run rocky helmet in the tier, they are probably just better than you I'm sorry to say. You need to know what to prioritize in what matches. If i am facing 6 steel types I am not clicking rocks once I am making sure my steel answer never has the chance to get exploded. When I see a band lokix I am trading up for a KO if I have to (bit of an exaggeration but you get what I mean if its good for the long game then hell ya). The mon does not have the longevity to take your entire soul in most cases. You have to play into that fact that it gets locked and you have to set it on a timer. Not being able to achieve that is the only thing that ever makes it seem broken imo
Dog click the switch button are you kidding me. Sorry you didn't kill their revenge killer so you can't sweep cus you set up too early! If that is the mon that threatens their whole team, then having a free turn is going to let you trade back! Also calling protect worthless is just so ignorant imo. Sometimes on teams there are better moves, because you have answers that allow you to not spend a turn doing nothing, but for scouting choice moves, tricks, letting pokemon take ticks to put them into your move ranges are some of the things that make running protect not useless. If you build your teams right, then protect can become more than just "i dont want to get fimped so ig im running this!" Read above. If you are getting rocked every game by a band lokix it's probably because you are the one playing brainless on ladder.
Wtf does RU have to do with UU discussion. Basc-f gets used here as a specs ghost breaker and the fact that you have to mention the RU discussion for it here shows you don't know what you are talking about. Please join one of the tier discords and ask questions to those who have been around a while before making public opinions.
And for the record Weav also can run protect pretty freely and triple axel into any non-scarf slither set to clean up end games (AND also can tera ghost to stop half these mons from OHKOing it if they guess wrong !!!!). Talonflame is just a flame body prayer half the time but yes it is faster and gets flare blitz so sure. I dont wanna run talon on every team tho that mon kinda buns
The only 2 valid things you have said here is discussion on banning lati and weav. They have enough variety to where it can definitely strain your builder (why they were on the tiering survey BTW!!!!). Banning keldeo is a so far out of this planet take that you must be from an unnamed pink hue planet outside of earth's solar system. Its a good wrong don't get me wrong but it can never have the perfect moveset. Serp has been on a huge rise which is a total pain in the ass for it on top of things like hydrapple. Milo usage up to help with it, gardevoir, slowking if people want to run the right options to respect it, AV conk, latios (i know is on your list but you get what i mean), toxapex hell salamence. If it drops fighting move for icy wind then it gets even harder for it too. Tera steel is annoying but thats about it. Same goes with everything I said about Lokix above. It can be annoying but calling these things broken checking brokens is just mind boggling to me.
Anyways thats my rant for today. Sorry for being blunt but these threads turn into giant echo chambers of complaints of people less in the know instead of anyone actually trying to find a full on solution. Just upset kids going "i dont like x so lets ban it." Usually why I avoid these threads, but I think the OG poster put in enough effort of why he felt the mon was broken and how they were having issues figuring out how to deal with it that made it valid why they thought it was broken. I seriously hope you take the answer in stride and stay around to learn how to deal with it. I know it can get frustrating, but the more experience you get the more you will realize how much control over the situation you can have.
i do
lol im not gonna elaborate on this
when did i call protect worthless? never. it's a great move in some situations, but let's be real, dog
if lokix didn't exist in this tier, 90% of the setup sweepers that now run protect would stop using it. greninja, weavile, dd tar...you name it. they all would appreciate a third coverage move WAY more than protect just for the sake of sir click first impression lokix.
i never said i'm getting rocked by lokix. in fact, it's the opposite. thanks to the fact that i run protect on every single setup sweeper that allows for it, most opposing teams that rely on first impression to revenge kill just get cooked. easy ladder points for me.
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seems to me that you're missing all my points. so im gonna make a summary for you:
we all are trying to suspect weavile again when it's got way more answers and it's way less restrictive than lokix. wrong dark knock off user to suspect.
weavile is completely fine.
so in your own words, your opponent having a lokix is "easy points" for you and this makes it banworthy?
why is the lokix thing getting so tense? sure mentioning ru was a dumb move on my part(I thought people'd get the analogy) but this feels heated. lilou stated he runs protect for the free points whenever it allows(implying it doesn't always allow) and that the mons protect is ran on would appreciate a third coverage move a lot more and. aside from this I'm surrounded by a bunch of mad people who won't stop arguing over lokix's broken-ness. the tension here is getting heated I think we need a lokix in uu thread at this pointi think you missed this part of my text, directly below the part you are quoting:
"im not saying lokix needs a suspect. but weavile doesn't deserve one more than lokix."
or this one on my previous post:
"as much as i hate lokix, i'm not saying it's broken or that it needs insta ban. i just say that between lokix and weavile, lokix is the one who deserves to be suspect tested, imo"
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you guys need more reading comprehension therapy oml
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