Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 20 - Fly Me To The Moon

[Finchinator]

​

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to retest Roaring Moon!

Let's start with some relevant information:

• Following a suspect test, Tera Blast was banned from SV OU on April 26th with a 61% supermajority.
• Unanimously, we decided to drop Regieleki back to OU without the need for a retest.
• Council voted to retest (rather than outright unban or keep Uber) both Volcarona and Roaring Moon.
• Keeping in-line with that vote, we then determined Volcarona had more support for a retest.
• After the Volcarona retest, where Volcarona remained Uber, we needed to find time for Roaring Moon.
• In recent discussions, we decided now was the optimal time for a Roaring Moon retest.

From release, Roaring Moon is a potent physical attacker that was previously allowed in SV OU until being banned via 70.23% supermajority during an October 2023 suspect test, reintroduced after the DLC, and banned via 66.07% supermajority during a March 2025 suspect test. While Roaring Moon went viral for the overpowering breaking sets on Sun teams with Protosynthesis, the ban of Roaring Moon was due to various Dragon Dance variants limiting the amount of consistent counterplay it had. Roaring Moon boasts high enough attack to be able to focus resources on other priorities such as durability or speed, allowing it to become one of the best sweepers in SV OU's drawn out history.

Under current rule, Roaring Moon has since lost access to Tera Blast, a tool it used with the Fairy type to dispatch of potential checks like Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Ting Lu, and others. It used Tera Blast over a quarter of the time prior to being banned and some argue the surge in the bulkier Tera Fairy variants directly led to the second ban of Roaring Moon. Tera Blast being removed will not make Roaring Moon a bad Pokemon, but could it at least compromise it enough to be balanced in OU? That is going to be at the center of this discussion...unlike ancient texts featuring Tera Bug Jaw Lock Roaring Moon.

Complementing the bulkier Dragon Dance sets would be offensive variants of Roaring Moon. They were always great picks in the metagame and posed the biggest immediate threat, but these sets were susceptible to trading against teams with strong priority or exchanging Tera uses to be revenge killed by a Pokemon with a timely defensive Tera. Coverage options like Earthquake and Brick Break or utility options like Taunt and Roost paired nicely with Knock Off and Acrobatics, which is frequently paired with Booster Energy and Tera Flying. Tera Ground, which gives you a stronger Earthquake and a lot of neutral defensive matchups, can be utilized as well. It is also true that people use Choice Scarf Roaring Moon as a revenge killer or Choice Band as a breaker, especially on Sun teams with Protosynthesis. I do not think either of these variants are remotely problematic though, so they are not noteworthy in the context of a retest so much as painting a picture for the full usage profile.

Knowing that a lot of the metagame's outlook has changed over the last year-and-a-half, it already would be fair to retest a Pokemon that only got banned by 6% during the second suspect test. Having a significant move ban impact the profile of Roaring Moon furthers the logic behind retesting it. Despite this, it is true that Roaring Moon has always been controversial and could very well find ways to be broken outside of a Tera Blast metagame. There is a high bar to get something unbanned via retest, which is done on purpose to make voters engage critically with the retest and consider brokenness rather than just being tired of the status quo.

Before we proceed, I want to remind you that the ladder will have Roaring Moon allowed in order to give players the chance to assess it in our metagame. We will have a longer period to participate in the retest, too, which was not the case for the Volcarona retest due to a time-crunch with the World Cup of Pokemon looming. With these ideal conditions in mind, we hope players will take to the ladder to play with and against Roaring Moon while also taking to the forums to share their discoveries.

Over the course of this retest, it is worth noting that no AI bots or external assistance can be used for reqs laddering purposes. We will detect this if you try to circumvent the rule and, speaking personally as Finchinator, you are a loser if you try to do this. We are excited for human players to play the game against each other using strategies based on a metagame with Roaring Moon in it and seeing what the verdict is at the end of the retest. Roaring Moon is a uniquenly devastating offensive force with Dragon Dance, great coverage options, and multiple effective approaches. The metagame did not have enough counterplay for it previously, but is losing Tera Blast enough of a difference maker? We will use this retest to figure that out!

This retest serves as a great opportunity to say something we need to be putting out there more often: I just want to personally say thank you to the hard workers on the Pokemon Showdown side for making everything possible recently and this entire generation. This hobby would not be possible without you!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played OU before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Finchinator and/or Ruft
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Finchinator or Ruft!
• Please do not use AI bots or external assistance, including human and AI, when laddering for the suspect test.

The requirement to vote in this suspect retest is a ELO of 1750 and GXE of 80! This was done after discussion in this thread. The deadline for getting requirements will be Friday, November 20th at 10 PM GMT-5. Good luck to all!

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Roaring Moon is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Roaring Moon vs other potential suspects or retests;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging dhelmise and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

View qualified discussion thread here

VIEW VOTER REQS HERE

 

[Finchinator]

This will remain locked for 24 hours for people to collect their thoughts.

Thank you!

 

[Finchinator]

Unlocking this as 24 hours have passed.

Happy posting!

 

[Finchinator]

I do not know what I will vote on Roaring Moon; it has been one day and I have only played low ladder thus far. I will play a lot on a couple of flights I have next week.

With this said, I built three teams with Roaring Moon, showcasing different variants. I will share them here. They are not thoroughly tested or optimized yet, but hopefully they can help people in need get on track. IMO people should try their own hand at building and report back here so we all get the best idea of Roaring Moon!

DD 3A Roaring Moon Offense: :Zamazenta: :Roaring Moon: :Glimmora: :Ogerpon-Wellspring: :Gholdengo: :Kingambit:

This is an offense that may give off "Zamazenta screens" from preview, but really just aims to overwhelm with synergistic physical attackers. DD3A Roaring Moon with Brick Break for (Air Balloon) Kingambit is usually a threat, giving you a high floor option which hopefully at worst is trading and at best is sweeping. There are some hold-ups, but Taunt Ogerpon-Wellspring and hazards function as good patchwork for those.

As for potential changes...Psychic Fangs Zamazenta is mainly for opposing screens, but can be Ice Fang. Ogerpon-Wellspring can go Adamant, but the team is lowkey slow for offense, so I am hesitant to suggest that. You can go with a different Tera on Gholdengo or Kingambit if you wish, too. I suppose another change is just...making Roaring Moon into something faster or Dragonite to give you more speed, but that defeats the point haha, also considered Tusk with BUTaunt speed boost over Zama for an electric immune

Low ladder only so far, but vs Sun, vs MolaLokix

Bulky DD Roaring Moon Screens: :Roaring Moon: :Dragonite: :Ogerpon-Wellspring: :Iron Treads: :Zamazenta: :Raging Bolt:

While Tera Blast is no longer allowed, bulkier DD Roaring Moon variants absolutely still can thrive. This variant is only faster than Kyurem and Adamant Ogerpon-Wellspring while running Tera Fairy to try and snowball boosts into a sweep. Zamazenta provides screens, DD Encore Dragonite tries to assure certain physical walls will be kept low or forced to switch, Taunt Ogerpon-Wellspring is good offensive glue, and Iron Treads is glue in more of a non-passive utility sense.

Potential changes would be going Earth Plate on Iron Treads, different tera options on Zamazenta, and potentially changing the Dragonite slot altogether. Bulky DD Roaring Moon can easily use Tera Ground, Ghost, or even Steel, too. Acrobatics can be used over Knock off, too.

Again only low ladder, but vs Prime, vs Webs, vs Demon Whimsicott...bonus lottery Glaceon ending my reqs alt here

Choice Band Roaring Moon Sun: :Ninetales: :Roaring Moon: :Alomomola: :Walking Wake: :Kingambit: :Great Tusk:

Sun Roaring Moon is nowhere near broken and is more of a fun tool or novelty than as worrisome as the Dragon Dance variants. It actually is a bit of an awkward fit onto most classic variants of Sun, so I had to get a little creative even making this set work as it is not fast and it is not covering a ton defensively. With that said, CB Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Outrage in Sun is nuclear! Walking Wake has to be speed boosting with this set-up and we try to patch up some defensive holes with Tera Steel AV Great Tusk, Tera Fairy bulky Kingambit, and super-pivot Alomomola with Eject Button and Healing Wish (plus: Tera Fly Acrobatics for post-Eject Button Ogerpon-Wellspring luring to spam Hydro Steam later). The team definitely has some holes, but it is fun to mash things with Roaring Moon and AV Great Tusk in Sun.

Potential changes can be going Cresselia or Hatterene over Alomomola, making Walking Wake Choice Scarf SAtk booster, going with Torkoal over Ninetales, or just...changing Roaring Moon and using one of the many previously established Sun teams lol

Again low ladder only, but vs LokixTorn balance, vs Roaring Moon offense, vs Sun, vs Sun again

Hope everyone enjoys the retest! Will post again in a week or two (keep in mind: this retest is longer than a normal suspect) with my thoughts on Roaring Moon!

 

[1LDK]

im on hiatus because genuine personal life related issues. but i made a promise to people that even in dead i would brutally overdose on crack and take a final dump on the roaring moon suspect

im regurgitating the argument i used last time, but better explained
roaring moon by itself, in a vacumm, is not broken, as its physically frail, weak to prio, weak to contact effects, etc.
the problem is, roaring moon, breaks gliscor, and cooperatively, gliscor, breaks roaring moon
everything that counters roaring moon, loses to gliscor
everything that counters gliscor, loses to roaring moon
all, except Corviknight and Skarmory. these are the only 2 who can defensively check both consistently for a while
and this turns the meta into fat balance slop, with kyurem / weavile + glowking zama fats. and tera blast ban doesnt change anything because moon still has roost taunt tera ghost tera ground eartquake stone edgeand you can just toxic protect gliscor whatever else you dont like. while thee other side has to use ogerpon-wellspring to play whack a mole on the enemy team while avoiding status

sounds familiar? its because this is very similar to what the meta was in dlc 1, and in case anyone forgot, this meta FUCKING SUCKS JESUS FUCK. only difference is that instead of sneasler haxxing shit with status, its kyurem whos haxxing shit with status.

You cannot have roaring moon and gliscor in the same tier at the same time, you either ban 1 or the other, and 2 times people have chosen gliscor to stay and the tblast ban is not enough for the balance to change

you people are bored, I get it, 6 to 7 years of playing SV OU droves anyone mad, and now yall making hasty desicions just to spice a bunch of corpses, but consider that once gen x comes around, 90% of you people will move to gen x while the rest of the people who love gen 9 will have to deal with a gigantic fat steaming pile of shit the size of the Burj Khalifa.


keep this shit in ubers and suspect gholdengo too, isnt this community supposed to be anti capitalism anyway

anyway im going back to playing umamusume

 

[SushiSlice]

Hello I haven't laddered in a while, made reqs by spamming screens ho (aerid konstrari) so idk how qualified I really am lol but I figured I'd throw in my two cents.
I went into the test fully expecting this thing to be broken as fuck and honestly I was a little underwhelmed. Obviously it's still strong as fuck but without tera blast it really feels like you struggle to assemble 4 moves/ev spread that beat everything you want to, you end up having to decide between knock/acro/eq and taunt/roost and being fast/strong/bulky which leaves you open to certain stuff no matter what. I ended up rocking a pretty standard set with taunt to beat phasers + status guys, but without acro you lose to zama/tusk and adamant means you get revenged by most of the usual booster/scarf guys + priority even at +1. 105/71 physical bulk is kind of whatever, it's definitely serviceable but you will take noticeable damage and get worn down without roost/invest.
Outside of standard adamant dd sets the only other set I saw really frequently while laddering was banded jolly on sun, which doesn't seem that much more egregious than the breaking power of wake/bolt/ledge/etc; definitely not as much of a concern as dd sweeper. I also saw jolly dd a few times, makes it a more reliable cleaner but the loss of protosynthesis' power is pretty noticeable.

Overall I'm surprised with how ok it feels, most teams felt like they had a reasonable answer and the games where moon ended up running away were usually ones where enemy exhausted tera early without thinking. Scouting the set can be costly but it's usually manageable, made easier by the fact that no tera blast means the number of viable sets is way lower.
Obviously it's only been a day so idk how I'm gonna vote for sure but for now I lean dnb, if we're gonna be stuck playing this stupid tier for another year we may as well make it more interesting lol. Worst case his ass gets sent to jail for a third time

 

[moore's law]

Busy with work, don't know if I'll get the time to make reqs (I've got the first half of games against low ladder out of the way, so I guess there's that). I think Finch's post covered the common sets. I'm also curious to see new sets that people could use with Moon.

Moon is in some ways still a relatively underexplored mon - for the longest time, people stuck with the 3A or 2A+taunt DD sets (pre knock) and even after, it was mainly used with CB under sun or the same 2A/3A DD sets with knock instead of Crunch. In the months before it got banned, people started experimenting with bulkier sets like tera fairy and tera ground + roost and choice scarf. I'm not sure if it is broken, current meta is quite offensive and doesn't let it boost endlessly, but I think there are three classes of sets that I would be interested in seeing explored:

- Super bulky sets with 252+ defense. Not sure if we've seen a lot of these, but moon is so fast even with 0 speed that it could do something like this (maybe with minimal speed investment to get the jump on ceruledge). These kind of sets could be taken to the extreme like the very greedy DNite sets we saw before tera blast was banned - DNite would run max bulk with DD/Roost/Encore/TB and run either Tera Flying or Fairy. Moon can do similar stuff with DD/Taunt/Roost and one of Knock or Acro, and trade DNite's multiscale boosted bulk for speed, immediate power (if you go max hp/max def, you get an attack boost), and moves that don't render it dead weight without tera.

- As we have seen with gambit, steel + dark is pretty decent coverage, so it would make sense for people to experiment with tera steel iron head + knock, because this set flips the common weakness of the other sets (base moon, tera ground and tera flying are all weak to ice moves, be it ice shard from weavile or generally being pwned by kyurem, especially under snow). Steel in general lets moon flip most of its weaknesses, ice, fairy, bug, dragon but keeps it weak to zamazenta.

- Loaded Dice under sun. This can work like a more offensive Scale Shot DNite - you could run DD/Scale Shot/Fire Fang (which is fine with a sun boost) + (knock/taunt).

1LDK touched upon how the meta could change - apart from Gliscor, I think Kingambit and Weavile get better in Moon meta, both as checks to moon and as partners for Dark spam style teams. Moon eats passive teams alive, knocking a bunch of stuff, and if it has taunt, 6-0ing them. It offers a lot of utility even in the games it doesn't sweep, knocking 1 or 2 mons and doing a lot to enable a late game Gambit sweep. I think Kyurem also gets better.

On another note, I'm glad we're getting to see its 3D sprite, those weren't around when it was legal and it is a lot nicer than the 2D sprites we had.

 

[bwarang]

What a terrible and awful take from 1DLK, one of the most well known trolls of the entire tier.
I agree that Moon has to be evaluated with its teammates, and Moon + Gliscor is a legitimate concern. If their combined pressure really leaves balance with only a couple of sustainable structures, that would be a strong reason to keep Moon banned. But I don’t think the claim that they cannot coexist follows from what you’ve laid out, especially when the argument depends on the Tera Blast ban changing essentially nothing.

The important change is what Moon can fit alongside recovery. DD / Roost / Knock / Fairy Blast gave it broad coverage against Fighting-, Dragon-, and Dark-types while keeping Fairy’s defensive benefits. That was particularly useful for a Pokémon trying to exploit repeated opportunities created by a partner. Acrobatics still hits the Fighters, but it doesn’t reproduce that coverage against Ting-Lu or Raging Bolt. Earthquake addresses different targets, but fitting it alongside Acrobatics and Knock means dropping Roost or DD. The surviving options are strong, but they don’t recreate the same combination of functions.

That matters even with Gliscor. If Moon now needs Gliscor to make more progress against a particular check before it can sweep, that is additional work the team has to accomplish. Toxic puts something on a timer; it doesn’t immediately remove that Pokémon’s ability to force Moon out or trade with it. Gliscor is excellent at making lasting progress, but we still have to account for the turns it takes and what the opponent can accomplish during them.

There’s also a meaningful cost when Gliscor covers for an already boosted Moon: Moon has to leave the field. It loses its Dragon Dance boosts, and outside sun, a consumed Booster Energy activation doesn’t come back when it returns. Gliscor can keep Moon alive without preserving the position that made it threatening. That’s relevant to the priority and physical frailty you already acknowledge. The pairing can certainly win those exchanges, but it needs to demonstrate that it wins them consistently enough to overwhelm normal counterplay.

The actual Gliscor set matters too. Toxic / Protect / EQ / Knock isn’t also setting Spikes or threatening an SD sweep. Likewise, a Moon carrying DD / Knock / Acro / Taunt can disrupt defensive answers, but it cannot also Roost through repeated chip or carry Earthquake and Stone Edge. Set variety can absolutely be unhealthy across multiple sets; simply pointing out four moveslots doesn’t prove balance. But when the argument is that this particular partnership inevitably covers everything, we need to identify which combinations produce that outcome and what they give up.

Corv and Skarm being the broadest blanket checks would be relevant evidence. It still wouldn’t establish that separate defensive answers, offensive pressure, and trading cannot provide workable alternatives. That is the part of the centralization argument that needs showing: why those approaches fail against the actual remaining Moon–Gliscor configurations.

I agree that boredom is a bad reason to unban something. But there is a concrete competitive reason to reconsider Moon: it lost an unusually efficient way to combine defensive typing, recovery, and coverage. The previous bans establish that Moon was too much in those environments. They don’t establish that Moon and Gliscor are inherently incompatible under a changed ruleset. The question is whether their remaining combinations still impose the same restrictions, and listing the tools they retained doesn’t demonstrate that they do.

 

[shatoor0]

I've laddered and met the suspect criteria, and honestly, I think Roaring Moon would be a good addition to the current SV. It helps keep certain playstyles in check, especially with how common Sun and HO cheese teams are lately. It also makes dealing with annoying mons like Cres and stall a lot easier. Imo my experience laddering, it hasn't felt particularly hard to deal with either, and I think it's pretty manageable to play against considering there is alot of ways you can deal with it in current SV as compared to before. Overall, I don't think Roaring Moon would be unhealthy for the tier, and I believe it could help improve the current meta.

 

[Baharoth]

I've said similar things regarding Volcarona so i'll keep this short. Roaring Moon, when looked at in a vacuum, isn't broken by itself but the SV OU meta is already broken in the sense that there are way more threats to cover than can possibly be covered with just 6 slots. Adding more crazy threats to it will only make it worse. What the meta needs is a reduction of threats, not an increase. It's understandable that people get bored with the meta after so long but making it worse doesn't help anyone. Ultimately this comes down to "Do you want to unban a mon that's not broken by itself even if it makes the meta worse?". I do not.

 

[Snaky]

im on hiatus because genuine personal life related issues. but i made a promise to people that even in dead i would brutally overdose on crack and take a final dump on the roaring moon suspect

im regurgitating the argument i used last time, but better explained
roaring moon by itself, in a vacumm, is not broken, as its physically frail, weak to prio, weak to contact effects, etc.
the problem is, roaring moon, breaks gliscor, and cooperatively, gliscor, breaks roaring moon
everything that counters roaring moon, loses to gliscor
everything that counters gliscor, loses to roaring moon
all, except Corviknight and Skarmory. these are the only 2 who can defensively check both consistently for a while
and this turns the meta into fat balance slop, with kyurem / weavile + glowking zama fats. and tera blast ban doesnt change anything because moon still has roost taunt tera ghost tera ground eartquake stone edgeand you can just toxic protect gliscor whatever else you dont like. while thee other side has to use ogerpon-wellspring to play whack a mole on the enemy team while avoiding status

sounds familiar? its because this is very similar to what the meta was in dlc 1, and in case anyone forgot, this meta FUCKING SUCKS JESUS FUCK. only difference is that instead of sneasler haxxing shit with status, its kyurem whos haxxing shit with status.

You cannot have roaring moon and gliscor in the same tier at the same time, you either ban 1 or the other, and 2 times people have chosen gliscor to stay and the tblast ban is not enough for the balance to change

you people are bored, I get it, 6 to 7 years of playing SV OU droves anyone mad, and now yall making hasty desicions just to spice a bunch of corpses, but consider that once gen x comes around, 90% of you people will move to gen x while the rest of the people who love gen 9 will have to deal with a gigantic fat steaming pile of shit the size of the Burj Khalifa.


keep this shit in ubers and suspect gholdengo too, isnt this community supposed to be anti capitalism anyway

anyway im going back to playing umamusume

Click to collapse...

I dislike the framing of this being a foregone conclusion, rather than a hypothesis. If anything the conclusion from this is that Gliscor is completely obnoxious. Not that Roaring moon is broken. You're also committing a slippery slope fallacy several times. I think it's far better to actually experience how this mon functions currently, rather than following this line of thought.

So far Roaring Moon feels way less powerful than I thought it would be. It's certainly strong but I don't think it's problematic.

As for the argument of the meta needing less threats. What would we even ban? Gambit? That seems like it would be shaking things up for the sake of it, much more than adding Moon back is.

Will have to play more to form my opinion fully. But I think it could come back and be fine.

 

[Glowking Agenda]

in my opinion, moon just adds nothing to the tier apart from another breaker you have to somehow cram an answer to in the builder.
The only defensive counterplay you have against the mon is corv skarm dozo and it genuinely just muscles past these guys if it has the correct set.
It does check cress and ceru but if you are using a team with moon, odds are you are using offense and these mons werent a problem to begin with.
I do not think moon would be a healthy addition and even if it was, offense really doesnt need any more help right now.

 

[Unknownhuman_evil]

I've laddered with roaring moon, and unsuprisingly it's still pretty much broken. Fantastic offensive typing, decent bulk and its typing is decent defensively speaking. Sure, tera blast is gone but did it ever really need it? No, it has very good coverage. You could argue that someone wouldn't be able to cover every potential counterplay on moon, but until you figure that out it's kind of a guessing game. And the price for trying to figure that out could be deadly and just be the end. What does roaring moon exactly add to the tier? I will admit has a lot of set variety, and there's also room for even more exploration. Which is fun and all.. until you realise that moon is most of the time just going to be another HO sweeper/breaker, and do we really need that in the tier? Absolutely not. I don't know how some people can somehow see this as a "healthy" addition to the tier. At the same time though, if Volcarona didn't make it, it's very likely moon won't make it either. So let's just pray that we as a community can banish this demon once and for all.

 

[Dhrabb]

Got reqs earlier today, I think Roaring Moon should be unbanned.

I started off with this team: :garchomp: :kingambit: :glimmora: :enamorus: :great-tusk: :ogerpon-wellspring:
I built this a couple weeks ago, and it's generally pretty solid but has some issues into fat. I got about midway through the run and then I wanted to actually us the suspected mon so I swapped the garchomp for moon, and ended with this team: :roaring-moon: :kingambit: :glimmora: :enamorus: :great-tusk: :ogerpon-wellspring:
Which brings me to my point; I think moon actually does add positives to the tier. The original team struggled with fat quite a bit and relied on glimmora to phaze out fast threats (namely val). Moon helps deal with annoying stuff like cresselia and stall for teams that otherwise have to find less than ideal ways of dealing with them (for this, it was knock oger in the garchomp version whereas I could afford whip on the moon version), while also being very fast itself. Not to mention, its choice sets are a great addition to not only sun but I think even regular offenses can take advantage of it.

Now, it adding positives to the tier is not the only reason to unban it, I also think moon is not really broken. It by itself not being broken is mostly clear to everyone here now that tera blast is banned, so I'll cut to talking about the strain it and gliscor put on balance together. I don't really think this is that much of a big deal, I personally think do nothing balances being punished by the addition of moon is a good thing. Moon has a hard time getting off a sweep vs any team that can play proactively (hazards, positioning mons that don't let it setup, phazing etc.). Balance has access to these tools, and I don't think it has a hard time fitting these in while still accounting for gliscor. Stuff like clef ting lu dnite will always be able to stop moon and stop gliscor as they already do right now. What teams will have to do now is be much more careful with their corviknights since often it is the primary answer to moon and it losing its helmet can pave the way for kingambit later. Again I don't really think this is a bad thing but that might be a preference thing. I don't really think this mon drastically worsens a lot of existing teams in the meta rn besides like, deo cress screens stuff (good).

To end, I'll quote a famous philosopher: inshallah we shall send ceruledge to the pits of UUBL

 

[samohi0]

just got reqs using the old quad choice lokix team. and honestly I'm inclined to vote unban just so lokix rises in viability.

if there was a button that unbanned roaring moon and banned Dragonite it would improve the tier

 

[658Greninja]

Ban. Keep this guy out of OU lmao.

:sv/roaring_moon:
First I just wanna say that it’s not cause of Moon is this unwallable demon. As a matter of fact, Balance was very popular during the last few days Moon was legal. The best answers to Moon (Ting-Lu, Tickle Mola, Lokix, Phys Def Gliscor, Molt, etc) are all Balance mons with Ting-Lu being splashable on BO. Moon’s strongest matchups are BOs and opposing HO offense structures. Moon often just needs 1-2 boosts to start tearing through these teams; its bulky enough with support from defense investment and/or screens while most priority in the tier struggles to pick it off. Moon Vs Moon matchups just become about who can position their Moon to win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2709382794-ncat6c2l2vll0r7w0jw77283h6228r2pw

Testing Moon before suspecting Light Clay was not the right call. Screens is already a hot topic and Moon would be the best screens abuser. Before Moon’s ban, Deo and Ayy Tales were the primary screens setters but now Zama is used. Its bulk makes it incredibly consistent at getting them up.

Calcs with Screens + an 8 HP, 132 DEF invested Roaring Moon.

Zamazenta Life Orb Close Combat dealing 38 - 45% to Tera Ground Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch dealing 30 - 35% to Tera Ground Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Iron Head dealing 34 - 41% to Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch dealing 61% - 72% to Tera Ghost Moon

Tusk Ice Spinner dealing 27 - 32% to Moon

Tusk Headlong Rush dealing 31 - 36% to Moon

Tusk Close Combat dealing 62 - 73% to Moon

Dnite Tera Normal Extreme Speed dealing 23 - 27% to Moon, with Choice Band it deals 34 - 41%

Valiant MOONBLAST dealing 82 - 97% to Moon

Proto Boosted Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse dealing 57 - 68% to Moon…without Tera

Specs Kyurem Ice Beam dealing 62 - 73% to Moon

Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix First Impression dealing 43 - 50% to Tera Ground Moon

Adamant Wellspring Ivy Cudgel dealing 64 - 75% to Tera Ground Moon.

People have invested even more bulk to survive even more hits. Its not difficult to grab 2 Dragon Dances behind Screens with Tera Ground or Ghost. Once it has 2 up there’s not a lot the opponent can do, compared to Dragonite at +2.

Moon makes Ceruledge easier to deal with, but Moon doesn’t fit on alot of Balance structures, and the teams Moon is primarily on have plenty of ways to pressure Ceru. Paradoxically, Ceruledge enables Moon. Everything that checks Moon also checks Ceru, so you can start by breaking these big physical walls with Ceru for a Moon sweep later. Other physical threats like Wellspring, Dnite, and Gambit do not share many of the same defensive checks as Moon, so they don’t overlap with it as much. Moon makes Balance teams better, the same Balance teams that Ceruledge is good against.

Dropping Moon would be trying to solve a few problems but accidentally making pre-existing problems even worse. If you don’t want the tier to become a funhouse of Tickle Mola + Lokix and Screens HO, Vote Ban.

 

[OatIsHere]

DNB. Keep this guy out of OU lmao.

:sv/roaring_moon:
First I just wanna say that it’s not cause of Moon is this unwallable demon. As a matter of fact, Balance was very popular during the last few days Moon was legal. The best answers to Moon (Ting-Lu, Tickle Mola, Lokix, Phys Def Gliscor, Molt, etc) are all Balance mons with Ting-Lu being splashable on BO. Moon’s strongest matchups are BOs and opposing HO offense structures. Moon often just needs 1-2 boosts to start tearing through these teams; its bulky enough with support from defense investment and/or screens while most priority in the tier struggles to pick it off. Moon Vs Moon matchups just become about who can position their Moon to win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2709382794-ncat6c2l2vll0r7w0jw77283h6228r2pw

Testing Moon before suspecting Light Clay was not the right call. Screens is already a hot topic and Moon would be the best screens abuser. Before Moon’s ban, Deo and Ayy Tales were the primary screens setters but now Zama is used. Its bulk makes it incredibly consistent at getting them up.

Calcs with Screens + an 8 HP, 132 DEF invested Roaring Moon.

Zamazenta Life Orb Close Combat dealing 38 - 45% to Tera Ground Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch dealing 30 - 35% to Tera Ground Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Iron Head dealing 34 - 41% to Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch dealing 61% - 72% to Tera Ghost Moon

Tusk Ice Spinner dealing 27 - 32% to Moon

Tusk Headlong Rush dealing 31 - 36% to Moon

Tusk Close Combat dealing 62 - 73% to Moon

Dnite Tera Normal Extreme Speed dealing 23 - 27% to Moon, with Choice Band it deals 34 - 41%

Valiant MOONBLAST dealing 82 - 97% to Moon

Proto Boosted Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse dealing 57 - 68% to Moon…without Tera

Specs Kyurem Ice Beam dealing 62 - 73% to Moon

Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix First Impression dealing 43 - 50% to Tera Ground Moon

Adamant Wellspring Ivy Cudgel dealing 64 - 75% to Tera Ground Moon.

People have invested even more bulk to survive even more hits. Its not difficult to grab 2 Dragon Dances behind Screens with Tera Ground or Ghost. Once it has 2 up there’s not a lot the opponent can do, compared to Dragonite at +2.

Moon makes Ceruledge easier to deal with, but Moon doesn’t fit on alot of Balance structures, and the teams Moon is primarily on have plenty of ways to pressure Ceru. Paradoxically, Ceruledge enables Moon. Everything that checks Moon also checks Ceru, so you can start by breaking these big physical walls with Ceru for a Moon sweep later. Other physical threats like Wellspring, Dnite, and Gambit do not share many of the same defensive checks as Moon, so they don’t overlap with it as much. Moon makes Balance teams better, the same Balance teams that Ceruledge is good against.

Dropping Moon would be trying to solve a few problems but accidentally making pre-existing problems even worse. If you don’t want the tier to become a funhouse of Tickle Mola + Lokix and Screens HO, Vote DNB.

Click to collapse...

uhh i think you mean ban not DNB lmao, but i think this point does encapsulate how tera makes moon unimaginably hard to stop with even the toughest of revenge killers unable to handle a varient of roaring moon all of which are quite common regardeless

 

[samohi0]

DNB. Keep this guy out of OU lmao.

:sv/roaring_moon:
First I just wanna say that it’s not cause of Moon is this unwallable demon. As a matter of fact, Balance was very popular during the last few days Moon was legal. The best answers to Moon (Ting-Lu, Tickle Mola, Lokix, Phys Def Gliscor, Molt, etc) are all Balance mons with Ting-Lu being splashable on BO. Moon’s strongest matchups are BOs and opposing HO offense structures. Moon often just needs 1-2 boosts to start tearing through these teams; its bulky enough with support from defense investment and/or screens while most priority in the tier struggles to pick it off. Moon Vs Moon matchups just become about who can position their Moon to win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2709382794-ncat6c2l2vll0r7w0jw77283h6228r2pw

Testing Moon before suspecting Light Clay was not the right call. Screens is already a hot topic and Moon would be the best screens abuser. Before Moon’s ban, Deo and Ayy Tales were the primary screens setters but now Zama is used. Its bulk makes it incredibly consistent at getting them up.

Calcs with Screens + an 8 HP, 132 DEF invested Roaring Moon.

Zamazenta Life Orb Close Combat dealing 38 - 45% to Tera Ground Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch dealing 30 - 35% to Tera Ground Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Iron Head dealing 34 - 41% to Moon

Kingambit Max Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch dealing 61% - 72% to Tera Ghost Moon

Tusk Ice Spinner dealing 27 - 32% to Moon

Tusk Headlong Rush dealing 31 - 36% to Moon

Tusk Close Combat dealing 62 - 73% to Moon

Dnite Tera Normal Extreme Speed dealing 23 - 27% to Moon, with Choice Band it deals 34 - 41%

Valiant MOONBLAST dealing 82 - 97% to Moon

Proto Boosted Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse dealing 57 - 68% to Moon…without Tera

Specs Kyurem Ice Beam dealing 62 - 73% to Moon

Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix First Impression dealing 43 - 50% to Tera Ground Moon

Adamant Wellspring Ivy Cudgel dealing 64 - 75% to Tera Ground Moon.

People have invested even more bulk to survive even more hits. Its not difficult to grab 2 Dragon Dances behind Screens with Tera Ground or Ghost. Once it has 2 up there’s not a lot the opponent can do, compared to Dragonite at +2.

Moon makes Ceruledge easier to deal with, but Moon doesn’t fit on alot of Balance structures, and the teams Moon is primarily on have plenty of ways to pressure Ceru. Paradoxically, Ceruledge enables Moon. Everything that checks Moon also checks Ceru, so you can start by breaking these big physical walls with Ceru for a Moon sweep later. Other physical threats like Wellspring, Dnite, and Gambit do not share many of the same defensive checks as Moon, so they don’t overlap with it as much. Moon makes Balance teams better, the same Balance teams that Ceruledge is good against.

Dropping Moon would be trying to solve a few problems but accidentally making pre-existing problems even worse. If you don’t want the tier to become a funhouse of Tickle Mola + Lokix and Screens HO, Vote DNB.

Click to collapse...

Wack argument, of course a bulky set doesn’t take a lot of Damage under screens that’s the point of screens

 

[N ™]

Holy shit ladder is so dead getting reqs while matching into 1400s at 1650 was so annoying

I originally wanted to vote to unban roaring moon just because cb moon is fun to use on balance but after playing for reqs I'm more on the fence, though still leaning unban.
Moon is definitely super strong. Even without tera blast ot has a lot of different sets it can run to mix and match which mons are allowed to check it and it is very easy for it to sweep an unprepared team with just one turn of setup, however while I did get hit by my fair share of opposing moon sweeps it never really felt like I just had no counterplay and always because of some mistake that I made. Moon is extremely hard to answer defensively in the teambuilder but not impossible especially with something like a dedicated emergency tera fairy to stop the sets yoir more traditional checks can't cover. I didn't find it to be any more immediately threatening than a dragonite or kyurem in the right position and checks to all three of these overlap quite a bit, so accommodating for moon on existing, good teams isn't actually all that hard in my experience. The most important shift that I think is likely to happen is a return to prioritizing priority (heh) as an offensive safety net for sweepers with mons like espeed dnite and scizor or even more niche picks like lokix becoming justifiable on more teams, and considering how many threats there are that are difficult to revenge kill I would consider this possibility a positive.
I also really enjoyed using choice band moon on balance: the combination of a really strong knock off, access to U-turn and other really nice coverage, pretty good speed tier, and decent defensive profile makes it a very versatile mon on the kind of teams that really need to get the most out of every mon and allows some structures to thrive where without moon they would need to choose between dealing with fatter teams or faster teams effectively while matching up poorly into the other, and it also offers easy to slot in counterplay to breakers like ogerpon or ceruledge that would otherwise put a bad strain on the builder. This is why I'm leaning unban.

I used this team throughout my whole reqs run:
:roaring moon: :Zoroark-Hisui: :moltres: :great tusk: :dragonite: :alomomola:
https://pokepast.es/92ff7275405af63d

I made this just to have fun with zoroark and roaring moon with no hopes of it being actually good but I was surprised to find how well the core works and it was indeed really fun to use. This once again proves zoroark is good and should be on the viability rankings

 

[Docter_Peng99]

Yo I haven't yapped here in a while have I. I don't plan on doing reqs that often but I do want to post some of my thoughts on roaring moon. It kinda feels ok at best at the moment. While it can run away with games, there have been many ways to answer it. I feel the band set is definitely a lot better than the normal dd set at the moment but of course moon itself would still be quite the issue it helps as the tera blast ban has made it lose some of it sets mainly the bulky tera blast fairy set that was popular before it's ban. I think while unbanning it won't necessarily make the tier worse I can still see keeping the tier as is as sv ou itself has already been very tumultuous. And most people, myself included, have gotten used to roaring moon being gone for so long. Roaring moon itself still relies heavily on terastalization in order to deal with checks like valiant. And also booster energy being a silly item so I leaning more in favor on the ban side but I feel the band set is probably better in general at least for me.

 

[Unscripted]

Just finished my reqs, I am leaning very heavily towards Ban.

How is moon even ok in a “vacuum?” He resists the common priority moves of sucker punch, grassy glide, and thunderclap, takes max 72 from cb scizor, and isn’t even guaranteed to be 2hko by Weavile: 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 164-194 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO.
His Tera types don’t make him weak to priority either except flying to thunderclap, which he also has a chance to survive and ground into Rillaboom. Sure hazards can help, but did moon is only designed to come in once and won’t see a huge detriment from a spike or rocks.

It has enough coverage to cover all of its checks through eq or weirder status moves like sub, taunt, or roost, which are even more annoying behind screens where it can disrupt phasing or status or heal off chip that could normally be used to alleviate some of the pain.

I know a lot of people run adamant moon, but if you go jolly, you still get the attack boost and outrun valiant with a single boost, removing that as a reliable check. It is not hard to get a single boosting turn in the tier, especially when running ho with a mon which such good natural bulk due to its high bst and resistances.

I think the choice sets are all fine and I would love to have them as options in the tier, but unfortunately booster energy is a silly item that makes moon far too powerful too quickly and gives it amazing coverage to muscle past the fightings that would otherwise be great checks to its superior physical offense.

I think the question to ask when we look to unban a Pokémon is “what does this add to the tier” rather than “is this technically fine to answer given our current options” (which I still argue no) and I think moon adds very little positives to the tier. It increases the power of offense and hyper offense, is an amazing hazards abuser (not just in its ddance forms), and gives screens another great abuser that encourages more screens HO. I do not think the small improvements it adds to the tier outweighs the damage it does by being another over-tuned fast sweeper that can also break.

 

[malahuju]

Just finished my reqs, I am leaning very heavily towards Ban.

I think the question to ask when we look to unban a Pokémon is “what does this add to the tier” rather than “is this technically fine to answer given our current options” (which I still argue no) and I think moon adds very little positives to the tier. It increases the power of offense and hyper offense, is an amazing hazards abuser (not just in its ddance forms), and gives screens another great abuser that encourages more screens HO. I do not think the small improvements it adds to the tier outweighs the damage it does by being another over-tuned fast sweeper that can also break.

Click to collapse...

I am still in the middle of reqs and not going to lie, I haven't been fully convinced one way or the other yet. I understand the potential Roaring Moon has to centralize the meta, but I'm not fully convinced it's all bad. It does bring some positives to SV. It checks a handful mons that are really good right now: waterpon, cress, gholdengo, ceru. I haven't built much in this moon meta, so I'm not sure about whether it constrains builder too much, but just based on feeling, I'm not sure it takes too many resources to handle because the different sets kind of have similar counterplay, especially without guess the color tera blast sets. Sure whirl lu gets taunted, but it's probably not running taunt unless screens and a lot of teams from moon-less meta have tools to handle it, e.g. most dnite teams. Roar zama might be forced to tera, but moon might also have to tera to beat it.

I want to hear more about top players who view it as a positive because I'm hearing a lot of noise about how it's negative, and while I understand the principles of the do not unban side, I'm not sure they're fully fleshed out.

 

[showdown.on.youtube]

I am voting to Unban. I have several reasons why, personal reasons being I am a huge comfey fan and moon being in the meta means comfey will be much more viable (also making ceruledge much less viable). But that's a digression lol

As far as Roaring Moon's effects in the meta are concerned IMO:

• In the previous Roaring Moon suspect test, there was Tera Blast which made it easier to do sneak OHKO's on +1/+2 atk. Now the sets are more pigeonholed into either Tera Flying Acrobatics or Tera Ground Earthquake, and Tera Fairy is going to be much more niche and unlikely. It is still strong of course (and people usually boost ATK on protosynth), but its offense is not as consistent as it was before. To expound, these are the 3 most common sets that i've seen so far:
  • +ATK Proto Booster Energy Tera Flying/Ground 252 Speed, DD Acrobatics Knock Off Earthquake
  • +ATK Proto Booster Energy Tera Flying BULK, DD Acrobatics Roost Knock Off
  • +ATK Proto Choice Band Sun
    
    Based on me playing against them, none of them seem that broken to me, or seem un-counterable. They are easier to counter now than they were the last time it was up for suspect testing.
    
• A Recently Trending team is sun. Based on the responses here, not much has been said about its brokenness, but it will nonetheless be good to use vs. a Sun team, which means it brings more balance to the current meta.
  
• A Recently trending Pokemon pre-suspect test is the Max HP, Max Speed Agility SD Tera Normal Gliscor Set that actually has pretty decent viability vs. most Hyper Offense teams, and if you eliminate the pesky physical tanks or get them to OHKO range, you can straight up win with it. It's cancer. With the existence of Adamant Roaring Moon, Gliscors have now opted for the bulkier build once again which is a good thing.

 

[showdown.on.youtube]

Wack argument, of course a bulky set doesn’t take a lot of Damage under screens that’s the point of screens

Click to collapse...

I agree that 658greninja's argument using damage % was bad as well, but with the addendum of balanced teams usually have a way of escaping a HO setup through screens. In the current meta, all balanced teams have at least 1 or more of these: an unawarer (donbozo), bulky statuser (zapdos/moltres), lando, or a pokemon with max hp/max def (ting-lu). The teams that would have a harder time dealing with roaring moon are the currently trending hyper offense teams.