This might be an ignorant question, but out of curiosity, why is the BW OU metagame and playerbase so split? I understand it's an old generation, but I hear so many takes about this metagame from just about everyone, and no one agrees. Ban this, ban that, don't ban this, don't ban that. Being introduced to the tier is confusing as it is, trying to understand the real state of the metagame is even worse. Convoluted as it probably is to find, I think there could be a more scientific and methodical evaluation to the state of the metagame, but I wouldn't be able to assess it from this community at the surface. Help?
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OU BW OU Tiering Discussion [ SURVEY POST 107 ]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
Idt is that split as alot of people may think. But is just that doesnt feel like there isnt any urgency to ban anything atm. But doesnt mean the tier doesnt have issues from new meta developments. If anything as survey shows most ppl still enjoy bw as is even if it could be improved , if you wanna understand a tier theres no better place than playing games , interact with the community
Late as fuck here but idt the community is divided on anything. Volcarona maybe but that’s about it. I think getting bw people to agree on anything is just as hard as getting anyone on the internet to agree on anything. I agree with leoperi tho, there’s not much that needs attention rn.
The BW OU tiering council is once again conducting a survey and we want YOUR 
opinion
While we think BW OU is in a healthy state, we included a couple of controversial topics brought up throughout the year. Additionally, we left an open-ended question for anything else people wish to bring to the attention of the council. We will read through the responses and provide a summary of overall responses from the general playerbase and the more qualified playerbase next week.
Please reply to the survey here! Deadline will be Nov 22nd
opinionWhile we think BW OU is in a healthy state, we included a couple of controversial topics brought up throughout the year. Additionally, we left an open-ended question for anything else people wish to bring to the attention of the council. We will read through the responses and provide a summary of overall responses from the general playerbase and the more qualified playerbase next week.
Please reply to the survey here! Deadline will be Nov 22nd
Volcarona is fine right now. People have adjusted to LO and LO has the constant push-and-pull between fourth move and nature to cover things that are encountered frequently. I will not fault someone for saying they want it banned as it is disruptive and requires conscious team building efforts to cover, but it’s not broken or at the peak we saw previously.
Alakazam is not broken and never has been broken. It is arguably one of the best glue Pokemon even. LO has become a terror to some archetypes, but it still has more checks/counters than stuff that we largely agree upon keeping (Latios, Thundy-T, Exca, etc). The speed and the sheer strength with LO differentiates it a bit, but not to the extent it needs to get banned.
Bringing back Cloyster now would be silly. The main thing that changed between now and when it got banned in terms of counterplay is the uptick in Conkeldurr with Mach Punch to RK chipped Cloyster and Jirachi picking up in usage, which doesn’t even beat Cloyster reliably with the most common set. We cut off the cycle of Cloyster adapting to counterplay with set mix adaptations at the appropriate time previously and we don’t need to open this can of worms again with SPL coming up. If you think X amount of games are dictated by nonsense or matchup as is, X goes up dramatically with Cloyster being reintroduced. No thank you.
I put unsure for Chlorophyll. I get why it comes up and I am fine with the bandaid being ripped off for the sake of testing it out when council feels the time is right. I just don’t feel too strongly about it either way and would need to physically play around with it in modern context more to form a concrete opinion.
I gave the tier a 7/8 on the scale. That’s about as high as I will go. It will never be perfect or close to perfect with the inherent variance of some BW moves, strategies, Pokemon, etc., but we are in a good spot aside from that and I think BW is experiencing a good time with the ongoing tournaments. Def think council should tag here/everyone in discord and BW spaces to maximize the survey’s reach, but great job with this.
Alakazam is not broken and never has been broken. It is arguably one of the best glue Pokemon even. LO has become a terror to some archetypes, but it still has more checks/counters than stuff that we largely agree upon keeping (Latios, Thundy-T, Exca, etc). The speed and the sheer strength with LO differentiates it a bit, but not to the extent it needs to get banned.
Bringing back Cloyster now would be silly. The main thing that changed between now and when it got banned in terms of counterplay is the uptick in Conkeldurr with Mach Punch to RK chipped Cloyster and Jirachi picking up in usage, which doesn’t even beat Cloyster reliably with the most common set. We cut off the cycle of Cloyster adapting to counterplay with set mix adaptations at the appropriate time previously and we don’t need to open this can of worms again with SPL coming up. If you think X amount of games are dictated by nonsense or matchup as is, X goes up dramatically with Cloyster being reintroduced. No thank you.
I put unsure for Chlorophyll. I get why it comes up and I am fine with the bandaid being ripped off for the sake of testing it out when council feels the time is right. I just don’t feel too strongly about it either way and would need to physically play around with it in modern context more to form a concrete opinion.
I gave the tier a 7/8 on the scale. That’s about as high as I will go. It will never be perfect or close to perfect with the inherent variance of some BW moves, strategies, Pokemon, etc., but we are in a good spot aside from that and I think BW is experiencing a good time with the ongoing tournaments. Def think council should tag here/everyone in discord and BW spaces to maximize the survey’s reach, but great job with this.
I haven't been too active recently in this tier, but I do have 3 opinions, one of which I don't think is too odd.
Unban Drought + Chlorophyll, maybe ban Venusaur: From what I've understood with this tier's history is that Drought + Chlorophyll got a clause due to Venusaur being overwhelming and swept teams immediately, thanks to Sleep Powder, Growth and boosted fire coverage. But not only was this complex ban not necessary over just banning Venusaur, it also went against Smogon's standard tiering and banning philosophy. Since the Drought + Chlorophyll ban, many things have changed, which includes sleep moves, and Arena Trap, something that allowed Chlorophyll Sun teams to easily get rid of Tyranitar and Heatran. With that alone, Sand teams have very consistent counters to Chlorophyll teams now, without getting instantly punished for it. And if Venusaur does end up still too broken and unhealthy for the tier, ban it, not the complex ban for Chlorophyll, because the other Chlorophyll pokemon, like Victreebell and Sawsbuck, were also good, but suffered from lack of viability because they weren't allowed to use their abilities when that ban was for the majority from one other pokemon's unhealthy success. They themselves were not the problem. And the banning of sleep moves and Arena Trap also apply to them, so they are still worse off compared to pre-Chlorophyll ban. Personally, to me, current Sun teams feel like archetypes trying to limit both Sand teams and Rain teams at the same time, and are otherwise... well, viable, but not as much as Sand and Rain teams.
Unban Cloyster or ban Volcarona: So, I never thought Cloyster was too broken, I think it's just as hit-or-miss of a sweeper as Volcarona is, either they get KO'd trying to set up, or they sweep entire teams. I do understand why Cloyster got banned, once it gets a Shell Smash off, it's difficult to stop without a priority move. But if Cloyster got banned, I think Volcarona should also follow. If Volcarona stays, I think Cloyster needs to be unbanned. I understand that that's not how tiering and banning works but that's how I see it.
Ban Jirachi/Serene Grace + Flinching moves: I am an avid Jirachi hater in competitive and have openly complained about it for years, so I'm not expecting too much from this one. I think boosting the chance to flinch with damaging moves is simply much worse than Evasion moves, it's not fun to deal with and it's unhealthy for any meta, no matter how one spins it. It takes much less time to set up a paralysis, and one can also go for it turn 1 without risking all that much. The opponent is always at a disadvantage if the Serene Grace Pokemon gets paralysis off. When facing Evasion boosting, you can at least use healing, boosting, or field effects. With flinching you can't even use that. Of course I understand, Jirachi, and other Serene Grace abusers, have counterplay. But that doesn't remove the RNG factor. One still needs to get lucky to fire off the move they want to use against the Serene Grace abuser, and I'm assuming that is the same reason why Evasion moves and abilities were banned.
Unban Drought + Chlorophyll, maybe ban Venusaur: From what I've understood with this tier's history is that Drought + Chlorophyll got a clause due to Venusaur being overwhelming and swept teams immediately, thanks to Sleep Powder, Growth and boosted fire coverage. But not only was this complex ban not necessary over just banning Venusaur, it also went against Smogon's standard tiering and banning philosophy. Since the Drought + Chlorophyll ban, many things have changed, which includes sleep moves, and Arena Trap, something that allowed Chlorophyll Sun teams to easily get rid of Tyranitar and Heatran. With that alone, Sand teams have very consistent counters to Chlorophyll teams now, without getting instantly punished for it. And if Venusaur does end up still too broken and unhealthy for the tier, ban it, not the complex ban for Chlorophyll, because the other Chlorophyll pokemon, like Victreebell and Sawsbuck, were also good, but suffered from lack of viability because they weren't allowed to use their abilities when that ban was for the majority from one other pokemon's unhealthy success. They themselves were not the problem. And the banning of sleep moves and Arena Trap also apply to them, so they are still worse off compared to pre-Chlorophyll ban. Personally, to me, current Sun teams feel like archetypes trying to limit both Sand teams and Rain teams at the same time, and are otherwise... well, viable, but not as much as Sand and Rain teams.
Unban Cloyster or ban Volcarona: So, I never thought Cloyster was too broken, I think it's just as hit-or-miss of a sweeper as Volcarona is, either they get KO'd trying to set up, or they sweep entire teams. I do understand why Cloyster got banned, once it gets a Shell Smash off, it's difficult to stop without a priority move. But if Cloyster got banned, I think Volcarona should also follow. If Volcarona stays, I think Cloyster needs to be unbanned. I understand that that's not how tiering and banning works but that's how I see it.
Ban Jirachi/Serene Grace + Flinching moves: I am an avid Jirachi hater in competitive and have openly complained about it for years, so I'm not expecting too much from this one. I think boosting the chance to flinch with damaging moves is simply much worse than Evasion moves, it's not fun to deal with and it's unhealthy for any meta, no matter how one spins it. It takes much less time to set up a paralysis, and one can also go for it turn 1 without risking all that much. The opponent is always at a disadvantage if the Serene Grace Pokemon gets paralysis off. When facing Evasion boosting, you can at least use healing, boosting, or field effects. With flinching you can't even use that. Of course I understand, Jirachi, and other Serene Grace abusers, have counterplay. But that doesn't remove the RNG factor. One still needs to get lucky to fire off the move they want to use against the Serene Grace abuser, and I'm assuming that is the same reason why Evasion moves and abilities were banned.
I think not doing more to improve the sun and hail situation, which is them being less-to-none viable, is a detriment to the format as a whole. I'd like to see something happen there.
Sun:
Chlorophyll venasaur - seems to be essential sweeper on sun teams. And its sort of the one thing sun really has going for it, honestly. Perhaps in continuing in the tradition of featuring overly complicated gen 5 ou rules, sun could be neutered by an unconventional means, of restricting what other team members they can use, in order to specifically allow them a powerful sweeper like chlorophyll venasaur, at the expense of limiting what other coverage options they get, thus balancing them enough to allow them to compete, and giving them a significant draw back for running 'gotta go fast' venasaur. Which team members would have to be abandoned would likely have to be determined by grinding matchup win percentages until relevant choices become evident.
Sun:
Chlorophyll venasaur - seems to be essential sweeper on sun teams. And its sort of the one thing sun really has going for it, honestly. Perhaps in continuing in the tradition of featuring overly complicated gen 5 ou rules, sun could be neutered by an unconventional means, of restricting what other team members they can use, in order to specifically allow them a powerful sweeper like chlorophyll venasaur, at the expense of limiting what other coverage options they get, thus balancing them enough to allow them to compete, and giving them a significant draw back for running 'gotta go fast' venasaur. Which team members would have to be abandoned would likely have to be determined by grinding matchup win percentages until relevant choices become evident.
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The goal of tiering is to have a balanced metagame, not to pander to specific or niche styles. There is no doctrine claiming all four weathers must be equal or even viable outright.
Besides the biggest building block preventing them from being more mainstream is entry hazards, which aren’t going anywhere. Rain’s setter is neutral to SR with multiple spinner options being natural fits. Same with Sand and Drill being an exceptional fit on the builds it needs a spinner. Ninetales and Abomasnow provide less consistent upside (arguably) at a greater cost and need for support. There’s just no world where they can be fully equated or tiering can account for the difference.
Hence why it’s best to focus on the topics highlighted in the survey.
i think unbanning chlorophyll would be insanely stupid, when you see how well sun already matches up into a majority of rains and certain suns designed to beat ho. you’d have to go through and ban multiple chlorophyll threats before even considering it and thats a slippery slop. why dont we ban kingdra and kabutops to allow swift swim ect.
as finch said above the goal is a balanced metagame not one that lets everything have viability unfortunately.
now, been discussing with a few of the active bw players, conkeldurr seems to be an issue thats been mentioned a few times. it’s ability to restrict building is quite reminiscent of cloyster, almost always requiring a psychic or a strong special water (keldeo politoed, starmie take ur pick). i think conkeldurr should be the priority of council personally.
my own agenda would also be a thundurus suspect because i think that mon is ridiculous however that might just be me oops. sorry for the rush job still at work.
as finch said above the goal is a balanced metagame not one that lets everything have viability unfortunately.
now, been discussing with a few of the active bw players, conkeldurr seems to be an issue thats been mentioned a few times. it’s ability to restrict building is quite reminiscent of cloyster, almost always requiring a psychic or a strong special water (keldeo politoed, starmie take ur pick). i think conkeldurr should be the priority of council personally.
my own agenda would also be a thundurus suspect because i think that mon is ridiculous however that might just be me oops. sorry for the rush job still at work.
My votes:
6/8, good meta. When Gen ended, most of the bans and unbans that happened I don,t approve. Despite that, the meta is still good.
Volcarona is not the strongest Mon of the Tier, but I support a Suspect. Meta improved dramatically in SV when it got banned, I think it would happen here too.
Alakazam I consider bad Mon due to relying on Focus Blast way too often to win. No need for a Suspect and if you feel its needed, finish reading the post for an alternative.
Don,t really care if Cloyster stays banned but would support Unban if suspected.
Strongly support Chlorophyll Unban. It was a very wrong ban in first place, since it was not even banned on its own merits but to unban Excadrill. Since then, not only Chlorophyll Mons lost Sleep Powder, they also lost the trappers that removed their counters. If Venusaur becomes broken (unlikely), it can always be banned.
Finally, I think big changes are better for the meta than small changes that attempt to remove what people call "cheese". Big changes are the ones that make the meta evolve and force players to adapt. For this reason, as additional suggestions I suggest one of these 2 things: 1, Ban Latios, the best Mon of the meta. Or 2, Ban Spikes, which many of the best teams use. If you think (I disagree with this) that Alakazam should be banned, this is an alternative. Alakazam absolutely needs Spikes to work best and not rely as much on Focus Blast to win, without Spikes (to which it itself is immune), it will be a worse Pokemon. Neither Ferro, nor Skarmory would lose much viability, they are still decent defensive Mons. The excuse to unban Excadrill (and ban Sandslash, Stoutland and many Chlorophyll Mons) was to nerf Spikes, it didn,t achieve that since Spikes are still dominant.
6/8, good meta. When Gen ended, most of the bans and unbans that happened I don,t approve. Despite that, the meta is still good.
Volcarona is not the strongest Mon of the Tier, but I support a Suspect. Meta improved dramatically in SV when it got banned, I think it would happen here too.
Alakazam I consider bad Mon due to relying on Focus Blast way too often to win. No need for a Suspect and if you feel its needed, finish reading the post for an alternative.
Don,t really care if Cloyster stays banned but would support Unban if suspected.
Strongly support Chlorophyll Unban. It was a very wrong ban in first place, since it was not even banned on its own merits but to unban Excadrill. Since then, not only Chlorophyll Mons lost Sleep Powder, they also lost the trappers that removed their counters. If Venusaur becomes broken (unlikely), it can always be banned.
Finally, I think big changes are better for the meta than small changes that attempt to remove what people call "cheese". Big changes are the ones that make the meta evolve and force players to adapt. For this reason, as additional suggestions I suggest one of these 2 things: 1, Ban Latios, the best Mon of the meta. Or 2, Ban Spikes, which many of the best teams use. If you think (I disagree with this) that Alakazam should be banned, this is an alternative. Alakazam absolutely needs Spikes to work best and not rely as much on Focus Blast to win, without Spikes (to which it itself is immune), it will be a worse Pokemon. Neither Ferro, nor Skarmory would lose much viability, they are still decent defensive Mons. The excuse to unban Excadrill (and ban Sandslash, Stoutland and many Chlorophyll Mons) was to nerf Spikes, it didn,t achieve that since Spikes are still dominant.
I don't think anything needs to be touched necessarily, but I will always say "yes" to revisiting Cloyster on principle because I don't think it was broken in a way that was any more banworthy than current metagame staples like Latios. To me, if old gens are willing to admit that Pokemon are broken but can't be touched due to ripple effects, they should not be putting any Pokemon on the chopping block at that point. Getting swept by a scary set-up Pokemon (who was given that free turn, and in this case, is very flawed defensively) is not "cheese": it's a part of the game. The post-Cloy meta is generally fine, but I found the Cloyster meta good as well, so I'm pretty ambivalent either way. These are the reasons I'd be staunchly against touching Volcarona, even though I can relate to the annoyance that comes with getting swept by it.
Alakazam is oppressive in a weirdly similar way to Volc, but similarly, it's very flawed defensively so hard to call broken. The annoying aspect of it is LO Focus Blast just being a dice roller set that wins or loses vs some teams based on luck, way more so than Fire Blast Volc to continue that comparison. Can't say my problems with the Pokemon are really its fault though, weirdly.
The idea of retesting Chlorophyll is always interesting to me. To me, there's no way it's broken, and diversifying an otherwise fairly centralized metagame is always a good move to me. Sun suffers from having the shittiest weather setter of all time, and unlike Swift Swim, Chlorophyll users don't get a boost to their STAB, and unlike Sand Rush Excadrill, none of them have 135 Attack and a bonkers defensive typing. Would strongly support looking at this.
As for my slightly shitpost-y entry in the open-ended part: I'm convinced the perfect metagame has Sand Rush Excadrill back even if it's obviously broken as shit. It would somewhat kill weatherless offense as a style (which I'm pretty sure many are okay with), but it would also let you build some mad greedy teams when you have such a broken speed control option in place of traditional scarfers, which sounds fun. The metagame would likely devolve into trying to find Excadrill's kryptonite, but honestly, we already do that with Latios anyway.
Alakazam is oppressive in a weirdly similar way to Volc, but similarly, it's very flawed defensively so hard to call broken. The annoying aspect of it is LO Focus Blast just being a dice roller set that wins or loses vs some teams based on luck, way more so than Fire Blast Volc to continue that comparison. Can't say my problems with the Pokemon are really its fault though, weirdly.
The idea of retesting Chlorophyll is always interesting to me. To me, there's no way it's broken, and diversifying an otherwise fairly centralized metagame is always a good move to me. Sun suffers from having the shittiest weather setter of all time, and unlike Swift Swim, Chlorophyll users don't get a boost to their STAB, and unlike Sand Rush Excadrill, none of them have 135 Attack and a bonkers defensive typing. Would strongly support looking at this.
As for my slightly shitpost-y entry in the open-ended part: I'm convinced the perfect metagame has Sand Rush Excadrill back even if it's obviously broken as shit. It would somewhat kill weatherless offense as a style (which I'm pretty sure many are okay with), but it would also let you build some mad greedy teams when you have such a broken speed control option in place of traditional scarfers, which sounds fun. The metagame would likely devolve into trying to find Excadrill's kryptonite, but honestly, we already do that with Latios anyway.
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The fact nobody is talking about Keldeo is beyond insane to me. I'd rather have Cloyster than Keldeo. And Cloyster is awful to deal with, haha. I agree with MM about it.
But you don't even have to boost Keldeo, and it can still 1HKO sweep an entire team, while either rain is present or a single entry hazard has been laid. And it one hit ko blissey, even though its a special sweeper. That's crazy to me.
But you don't even have to boost Keldeo, and it can still 1HKO sweep an entire team, while either rain is present or a single entry hazard has been laid. And it one hit ko blissey, even though its a special sweeper. That's crazy to me.
for what it’s worth i was close to mentioning keldeo on my survey at the bottom. i do think keldeo is incredibly over bearing both in game and in the builder. either rain with incredibly strong water moves or on sand with pursuit support. however, i think keldeo is limited by the fact the teams you find keldeo on having to pick and choose their matchups, between not losing to zam spikes or to conk volc. it’s definitely on the borderline but just about fine
Metagame balance
I gave the current metagame a score of 6/8. When you take into account the fact that I think it's unrealistic for any tier to get a perfect score, and the fact that BW is a very volatile metagame where building sometimes feels impossible, this score is actually kind of incredible. I really like the current meta and even the few issues I have with it, some of which I'll go into here, aren't that crazy in the grand scheme of things and might not even improve the tier by much if they were to be dealt with.
Volc suspect:
Volcarona is always something I go back and fourth on: sometimes I feel like I want it gone and sometimes I think it's ability to punish most sand structures the way it does is a good thing, and I am not sure if banning it is the right way to go. That being said though, I think it does deserve at least a suspect. It's much more potentially punishing than stuff like Conk, because as threatening as Conk may be, it's rare to lose to it off of just 1 turn going in favor of the Conk user, whereas with Volc, while it's not the norm that some people make it out to be, it's still not that uncommon to lose off of just 1 wrong turn. Also, it's ability to pick and choose it's better matchups with all 3 of: its choice between timid vs modest, 4th moveslot, and especially it's item, isn't super healthy either.
Alakazam suspect:
I think that, a lot of the time Zam is actually a very good pokemon to have in the tier, as it's a very healthy revenge killer, especially with sash, but the breaking power life orb provides it, specifically with focus blast, has made more skeptical about it recently. It mostly just boils down to focus blast + hpice + signal beam/shadow ball hitting everything, and with the extra kick provided by life orb, hit really hard, but having to rely on focus blast makes it so frustrating because sometimes it can act as a reversal that works 70% of the time against some of its most common checks, and that really limits consistent defensive counterplay, and with Zam being the fastest non boosted mon you'll probably see in most BW games, checking it offensively, like all other Zams, isn't exactly easy either. While I'm still on the side of it being more of a blessing than a curse overall, with sash and even life orb hpfire+grass knot being healthy options, I ended up voting unsure because of the sheer destructive potential life orb focus can have.
Cloyster suspect:
I remember how happy I was when Cloy got banned, and while now the meta is a bit better at taking it on, I still don't support a Cloyster re-test whatsoever. I already talked about my mixed feelings on Volc, and to me, Cloyster is all of the bad things about Volc made worse: many different item choices, much MUCH more moveset options than Volc as it can choose to go mixed if it wants to beat some of its usual checks, and the worst part, it's waaay more common for it to win games with a single safe setup turn, and it also has a much easier time getting that free turn, because it can set up on most ground types safely, which there are a lot of. If all of that doesn't convince you: do you really want to free a mon that makes stealing games easier and building even harder with the only benefit being the ability to punish sand hard, when we already have things like Volc and Conk now? I doubt it.
Chlorophyll suspect:
Is chlorophyll broken? If I had to guess, probably not. Sun will always have a problem actually keeping sun up with it's lack of good spinners that fit naturally. However, do I want another strain on teambuilding? Again, probably not. Ultimately I did decide to vote unsure because if chlorophyll sweepers don't prove to be some completely different to handle from the threats running around now, then sure, I won't mind them, but I have no idea if that'll actually end up being the case. I don't think there's too much of a point with testing chlorophyll, as the chloro mons themselves don't provide any positives to the tier that I can think of, again, if the mons are fine, I don't really care
One last mon I want to mention which I think deserves a look is Thundurus-therian. The reason I brought it up isn't because I think it's necessarily broken, but rather because of how unhealthy it can be to answer it. It actually has a some of the unhealthy traits the mons I talked about have: the focus blast reliance of Alakazam, the ability to pick it's better matchups with it's 4th slot like Volc, but neither of them are the real problem, but just a bit of extra icing on the cake. The real issue is it's thunders. A lot of it's common checks, with Latios being the prime example, hate getting paralyzed, and with thunder having a 30% chance of doing so, it means it can punish at least decent play by just rolling numbers in it's favor, and unlike something like Jirachi, it can punish it's supposed counters as they're switching in, it only needs to roll the rng in it's favor once for them to be crippled, and when it does get it, it's not for just one turn, but for the whole game. The only real positives Thundy provides are giving rain teams a good punish into Ferro, and a volt immune to help pivot around Rotom and other Thundurus, and while I do think it's probably rains best option for both of these roles, there are still other mons that can take on those tasks and I'm personally fine with rain being worse if it means Thundy is gone.
I gave the current metagame a score of 6/8. When you take into account the fact that I think it's unrealistic for any tier to get a perfect score, and the fact that BW is a very volatile metagame where building sometimes feels impossible, this score is actually kind of incredible. I really like the current meta and even the few issues I have with it, some of which I'll go into here, aren't that crazy in the grand scheme of things and might not even improve the tier by much if they were to be dealt with.
Volc suspect:
Volcarona is always something I go back and fourth on: sometimes I feel like I want it gone and sometimes I think it's ability to punish most sand structures the way it does is a good thing, and I am not sure if banning it is the right way to go. That being said though, I think it does deserve at least a suspect. It's much more potentially punishing than stuff like Conk, because as threatening as Conk may be, it's rare to lose to it off of just 1 turn going in favor of the Conk user, whereas with Volc, while it's not the norm that some people make it out to be, it's still not that uncommon to lose off of just 1 wrong turn. Also, it's ability to pick and choose it's better matchups with all 3 of: its choice between timid vs modest, 4th moveslot, and especially it's item, isn't super healthy either.
Alakazam suspect:
I think that, a lot of the time Zam is actually a very good pokemon to have in the tier, as it's a very healthy revenge killer, especially with sash, but the breaking power life orb provides it, specifically with focus blast, has made more skeptical about it recently. It mostly just boils down to focus blast + hpice + signal beam/shadow ball hitting everything, and with the extra kick provided by life orb, hit really hard, but having to rely on focus blast makes it so frustrating because sometimes it can act as a reversal that works 70% of the time against some of its most common checks, and that really limits consistent defensive counterplay, and with Zam being the fastest non boosted mon you'll probably see in most BW games, checking it offensively, like all other Zams, isn't exactly easy either. While I'm still on the side of it being more of a blessing than a curse overall, with sash and even life orb hpfire+grass knot being healthy options, I ended up voting unsure because of the sheer destructive potential life orb focus can have.
Cloyster suspect:
I remember how happy I was when Cloy got banned, and while now the meta is a bit better at taking it on, I still don't support a Cloyster re-test whatsoever. I already talked about my mixed feelings on Volc, and to me, Cloyster is all of the bad things about Volc made worse: many different item choices, much MUCH more moveset options than Volc as it can choose to go mixed if it wants to beat some of its usual checks, and the worst part, it's waaay more common for it to win games with a single safe setup turn, and it also has a much easier time getting that free turn, because it can set up on most ground types safely, which there are a lot of. If all of that doesn't convince you: do you really want to free a mon that makes stealing games easier and building even harder with the only benefit being the ability to punish sand hard, when we already have things like Volc and Conk now? I doubt it.
Chlorophyll suspect:
Is chlorophyll broken? If I had to guess, probably not. Sun will always have a problem actually keeping sun up with it's lack of good spinners that fit naturally. However, do I want another strain on teambuilding? Again, probably not. Ultimately I did decide to vote unsure because if chlorophyll sweepers don't prove to be some completely different to handle from the threats running around now, then sure, I won't mind them, but I have no idea if that'll actually end up being the case. I don't think there's too much of a point with testing chlorophyll, as the chloro mons themselves don't provide any positives to the tier that I can think of, again, if the mons are fine, I don't really care
One last mon I want to mention which I think deserves a look is Thundurus-therian. The reason I brought it up isn't because I think it's necessarily broken, but rather because of how unhealthy it can be to answer it. It actually has a some of the unhealthy traits the mons I talked about have: the focus blast reliance of Alakazam, the ability to pick it's better matchups with it's 4th slot like Volc, but neither of them are the real problem, but just a bit of extra icing on the cake. The real issue is it's thunders. A lot of it's common checks, with Latios being the prime example, hate getting paralyzed, and with thunder having a 30% chance of doing so, it means it can punish at least decent play by just rolling numbers in it's favor, and unlike something like Jirachi, it can punish it's supposed counters as they're switching in, it only needs to roll the rng in it's favor once for them to be crippled, and when it does get it, it's not for just one turn, but for the whole game. The only real positives Thundy provides are giving rain teams a good punish into Ferro, and a volt immune to help pivot around Rotom and other Thundurus, and while I do think it's probably rains best option for both of these roles, there are still other mons that can take on those tasks and I'm personally fine with rain being worse if it means Thundy is gone.
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I already responded to the Google form, but I wanted to provide some more expanded thoughts here.
Regarding metagame balance, I would say that the metagame is very healthy overall at the moment. I don't feel overly restricted in the teambuilder, and I rarely feel like I'm in an unwinnable matchup at team preview. Additionally, I wouldn't say I need to be overly reliant on the same few 'mons or 'mons+sets to construct a tournament-ready team.
As far as any potential suspects/re-tests are concerned:
Volcarona
Volc is something that you absolutely must respect in the teambuilder, but rain being viable (and along with it, Thundurus) makes it so that Volc doesn't auto-load into a positive matchup. Additionally, there are enough tools for opposing HO and sand builds to remove it in the form of SashZam, ScarfChomp, and fully SpD Tar. Heatran's relative rise in popularity has also served to hold Volc back enough to the point where it hasn't run roughshod over the metagame.
Cloyster
Here, I'm speaking from a point of mostly external observation, as I've only participated in tournaments extremely seriously for the past two years in BW. That said, Cloyster reminded me a lot of XY Ubers' Xerneas; teams were required to run "jank" sets (Sitrus Berry Ferrothorn, anyone?) and spreads in order to stop it from obliterating teams with a single button click, much like Assault Vest Scizor and 'mons of that nature were needed to stop XY's GeoXern. I see no need to re-introduce that to BW in its current state.
Alakazam
Zam is an excellent 'mon, to be sure. It's a top-notch breaker with Life Orb, and it's a great "get out of jail free" card against setup sweepers and Scarfers. Banning it would potentially make other discussed Pokemon (Volcarona) more problematic. Additionally, it's checked by some of the most common stalwarts of the meta in Tar, Scarfed Lando, and Drill. While it's something that I need to account for while building, I wouldn't say I'm overly frustrated by its inclusion in the meta when preparing for it. It's not possible for Zam to run every move it wants to break most teams; you need to pick and choose what you decide to check/eliminate with its coverage options. I know that latter comment is similar to some Genesect discussions that have been had in Gen 6 OU in years past, but the difference is that Zam cannot generate punishing momentum for itself with U-Turn, and its inability to dodge Pursuit gives teams another "out" to it.
Chlorophyll
I only experienced Chlorophyll in BW when I was in high school playing Pokemon Online, so this is the potential test I'm least passionate about in either direction. As others have noted, I presume Venusaur might get particularly problematic should Chlorophyll's ban be lifted, but I'd be at least open to testing it out.
Other Comments
I don't view anything else that's currently allowed in BW OU as truly banworthy. Thundurus keeps rain viable, given that without it, you'd be starved for stopping Volt Switch momentum. Losing Thundy would eradicate much of the weather interplay that helps make BW what it is. Additionally, I feel that it's checked sufficiently by some of the meta's top 'mons in Latios, Tar, and Ferrothorn. HippoClef sand also stifles most sets. If I were to be pressed for one additional 'mon to look at for a potential suspect, I'd nominate Conkeldurr, as it almost always removes a 'mon from your team regardless of how you build and the archetype you're playing unless you have a very specific subset of attacks to OHKO it (LO Zam's or LO Reuniclus' Psychic, for example). However, while Conk is indeed annoying, I wouldn't say it's necessarily banworthy. I'm very pleased about the state of the metagame overall, and I wouldn't consider myself in a rush to change anything about how the tier is constructed.
Regarding metagame balance, I would say that the metagame is very healthy overall at the moment. I don't feel overly restricted in the teambuilder, and I rarely feel like I'm in an unwinnable matchup at team preview. Additionally, I wouldn't say I need to be overly reliant on the same few 'mons or 'mons+sets to construct a tournament-ready team.
As far as any potential suspects/re-tests are concerned:
Volcarona
Volc is something that you absolutely must respect in the teambuilder, but rain being viable (and along with it, Thundurus) makes it so that Volc doesn't auto-load into a positive matchup. Additionally, there are enough tools for opposing HO and sand builds to remove it in the form of SashZam, ScarfChomp, and fully SpD Tar. Heatran's relative rise in popularity has also served to hold Volc back enough to the point where it hasn't run roughshod over the metagame.
Cloyster
Here, I'm speaking from a point of mostly external observation, as I've only participated in tournaments extremely seriously for the past two years in BW. That said, Cloyster reminded me a lot of XY Ubers' Xerneas; teams were required to run "jank" sets (Sitrus Berry Ferrothorn, anyone?) and spreads in order to stop it from obliterating teams with a single button click, much like Assault Vest Scizor and 'mons of that nature were needed to stop XY's GeoXern. I see no need to re-introduce that to BW in its current state.
Alakazam
Zam is an excellent 'mon, to be sure. It's a top-notch breaker with Life Orb, and it's a great "get out of jail free" card against setup sweepers and Scarfers. Banning it would potentially make other discussed Pokemon (Volcarona) more problematic. Additionally, it's checked by some of the most common stalwarts of the meta in Tar, Scarfed Lando, and Drill. While it's something that I need to account for while building, I wouldn't say I'm overly frustrated by its inclusion in the meta when preparing for it. It's not possible for Zam to run every move it wants to break most teams; you need to pick and choose what you decide to check/eliminate with its coverage options. I know that latter comment is similar to some Genesect discussions that have been had in Gen 6 OU in years past, but the difference is that Zam cannot generate punishing momentum for itself with U-Turn, and its inability to dodge Pursuit gives teams another "out" to it.
Chlorophyll
I only experienced Chlorophyll in BW when I was in high school playing Pokemon Online, so this is the potential test I'm least passionate about in either direction. As others have noted, I presume Venusaur might get particularly problematic should Chlorophyll's ban be lifted, but I'd be at least open to testing it out.
Other Comments
I don't view anything else that's currently allowed in BW OU as truly banworthy. Thundurus keeps rain viable, given that without it, you'd be starved for stopping Volt Switch momentum. Losing Thundy would eradicate much of the weather interplay that helps make BW what it is. Additionally, I feel that it's checked sufficiently by some of the meta's top 'mons in Latios, Tar, and Ferrothorn. HippoClef sand also stifles most sets. If I were to be pressed for one additional 'mon to look at for a potential suspect, I'd nominate Conkeldurr, as it almost always removes a 'mon from your team regardless of how you build and the archetype you're playing unless you have a very specific subset of attacks to OHKO it (LO Zam's or LO Reuniclus' Psychic, for example). However, while Conk is indeed annoying, I wouldn't say it's necessarily banworthy. I'm very pleased about the state of the metagame overall, and I wouldn't consider myself in a rush to change anything about how the tier is constructed.
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Sup
Volc is broken and has been for years. It's one of the worst builder shackle, forcing you to run stuff like max hp, max special defense tyranitar to even stand a chance against it, or several other answers in other structures (usually dragonite for hyper offense, terrak outside of tyranitar for sand and one of the scarfed water users in rain) that are all here because being weak to volcarona is just that steep, you have a dedicated hard counter (that also is usually a good pokémon but that is besides the point) or you lose to it. It has been put aside for years by the really horrible gem+cloy+volc package that made it sound like these things were equal, when in the end volcarona was by far the least broken of it all. But it is still broken in my eyes and a pokémon that is just annoying in every single generation it's allowed in. If we're starting to put nonsense stuff like chlorophyll on the table (more on that later) I do not see why volcarona would not go. My only reason to keep it would be it is a part of the tier's identity, but if we are already discussing unbanning new stuff for fun (where did that even come from?) I am strongly in favour of suspecting it.
Alakazam I think is another pokémon that is part of the tier's identity, but definitely way more impacftul than volcarona. Alakazam in my opinion keeps a lot in check with its great speedtier, great movepool and is overall easy enough to fit on sand to be a BW staple. Unlike volcarona, every team has a way to deal with Alakazam that is not too restictive builder wise. The scarf turners are very good at keeping it honest. The main issue with Alakazam lately has been the life orb sets that people find too oppressive. In my eyes it is something that makes hyper offense even more of a consideration (as sash zam is very good vs HO, lo is notably really bad against it) so I do not really mind it. I would be against a suspect but I can understand if it happens.
Cloyster, Chlorophyll (lugia and whatever other bullshit you wanna put there be my guest) are all on the same page to me. They were banned for a reason, releasing them again is only creating problems for no reason (other than "oh my god the tier is booooooooooring" or whatever drivel you wanna pass it as). The current BW is quite iconic, so I do not see a reason to add anything back, especially stuff that is extremely hard to balance for an old gen. Let us say hypothetically we release chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is an ability on a dozen pokémon. Stuff like venusaur or jumpluff that were used on the old chloro teams would instantly be in the radar, but what about other stuff. What if we did a suspect, everything goes fine, we unban chlorophyll and then some chloro pokémon just becomes really broken and breaks the meta. Please do not tell me "oh what do you know, there is no way we find new stuff in an old metagame" especially looking at the changes in old gens (specifically gen 3/4/5) in the recent years. I am not looking forward to something that bring unstability to a tier that heavily relies on variance already. The only reason (that I am assuming) for this happening is : some council members are bored and find the metagame stale. I do not see any other reason, so this seems extremely pointless to me. To finish it off even IF chlorophyll was not broken, I do not see any chlorophyll pokémon bringing anything interesting to the table, but you can use my previous argument to kind of brush this off (as it is just my opinion after considering what learns chlorophyll and from past example of legal chlorophyll teams). I have also seen 0 good argument for chlorophyll so far, so if you are for a chlorophyll suspect I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what it would bring to the metagame (that makes the unban interesting, not just "haha I have more tools so I will have more fun" kind of bs).
Some Thundurus arguments have been made in this thread. I think Thundurus is crucial for rain to not be too simple (me click water moves) and is really iconic of the tier, so I would be against banning it. It is a really oppressive pokémon and one of the builder's shackles BUT unless we are discussing HEAVILY (and I do mean heavily, no more we do one thing every 2 year and call it a day) changing BW OU, which means looking at several differents things such as rethinking the aldaron rules, trying to re-tier the tier from scratch etc (which I think is possible but has low probability seeing as smogon moves), well I think we should strive to keep the tier as it is. It is a great tier and always has been (for me at least).
I am personally quite averse to seeing BW get the dpp treatment of random bans happening, especially before SPL. Ultimately besides volcarona I do not see anything to address (currently, opinion can always change) in the tier. If volcarona makes it to suspect and then ultimately ends up unbanned I can also live with that. We should never allow cloyster back in though, anyone who says otherwise just has not played in the cloyster+gems and then cloyster era. I know some people have spoken against conkeldurr, cloyster is conkeldurr but if you give it a single turn it instantly wins the game vs almost every team (unlike volcarona the checks are really scarce and usually bad fits to team, stuff like defensive jirachi and the magnet zone dogass pokémon). Really wanted to end this post on some cloyster hatred for good measure since it is being brought up again.
Cheers
Volc is broken and has been for years. It's one of the worst builder shackle, forcing you to run stuff like max hp, max special defense tyranitar to even stand a chance against it, or several other answers in other structures (usually dragonite for hyper offense, terrak outside of tyranitar for sand and one of the scarfed water users in rain) that are all here because being weak to volcarona is just that steep, you have a dedicated hard counter (that also is usually a good pokémon but that is besides the point) or you lose to it. It has been put aside for years by the really horrible gem+cloy+volc package that made it sound like these things were equal, when in the end volcarona was by far the least broken of it all. But it is still broken in my eyes and a pokémon that is just annoying in every single generation it's allowed in. If we're starting to put nonsense stuff like chlorophyll on the table (more on that later) I do not see why volcarona would not go. My only reason to keep it would be it is a part of the tier's identity, but if we are already discussing unbanning new stuff for fun (where did that even come from?) I am strongly in favour of suspecting it.
Alakazam I think is another pokémon that is part of the tier's identity, but definitely way more impacftul than volcarona. Alakazam in my opinion keeps a lot in check with its great speedtier, great movepool and is overall easy enough to fit on sand to be a BW staple. Unlike volcarona, every team has a way to deal with Alakazam that is not too restictive builder wise. The scarf turners are very good at keeping it honest. The main issue with Alakazam lately has been the life orb sets that people find too oppressive. In my eyes it is something that makes hyper offense even more of a consideration (as sash zam is very good vs HO, lo is notably really bad against it) so I do not really mind it. I would be against a suspect but I can understand if it happens.
Cloyster, Chlorophyll (lugia and whatever other bullshit you wanna put there be my guest) are all on the same page to me. They were banned for a reason, releasing them again is only creating problems for no reason (other than "oh my god the tier is booooooooooring" or whatever drivel you wanna pass it as). The current BW is quite iconic, so I do not see a reason to add anything back, especially stuff that is extremely hard to balance for an old gen. Let us say hypothetically we release chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is an ability on a dozen pokémon. Stuff like venusaur or jumpluff that were used on the old chloro teams would instantly be in the radar, but what about other stuff. What if we did a suspect, everything goes fine, we unban chlorophyll and then some chloro pokémon just becomes really broken and breaks the meta. Please do not tell me "oh what do you know, there is no way we find new stuff in an old metagame" especially looking at the changes in old gens (specifically gen 3/4/5) in the recent years. I am not looking forward to something that bring unstability to a tier that heavily relies on variance already. The only reason (that I am assuming) for this happening is : some council members are bored and find the metagame stale. I do not see any other reason, so this seems extremely pointless to me. To finish it off even IF chlorophyll was not broken, I do not see any chlorophyll pokémon bringing anything interesting to the table, but you can use my previous argument to kind of brush this off (as it is just my opinion after considering what learns chlorophyll and from past example of legal chlorophyll teams). I have also seen 0 good argument for chlorophyll so far, so if you are for a chlorophyll suspect I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what it would bring to the metagame (that makes the unban interesting, not just "haha I have more tools so I will have more fun" kind of bs).
Some Thundurus arguments have been made in this thread. I think Thundurus is crucial for rain to not be too simple (me click water moves) and is really iconic of the tier, so I would be against banning it. It is a really oppressive pokémon and one of the builder's shackles BUT unless we are discussing HEAVILY (and I do mean heavily, no more we do one thing every 2 year and call it a day) changing BW OU, which means looking at several differents things such as rethinking the aldaron rules, trying to re-tier the tier from scratch etc (which I think is possible but has low probability seeing as smogon moves), well I think we should strive to keep the tier as it is. It is a great tier and always has been (for me at least).
I am personally quite averse to seeing BW get the dpp treatment of random bans happening, especially before SPL. Ultimately besides volcarona I do not see anything to address (currently, opinion can always change) in the tier. If volcarona makes it to suspect and then ultimately ends up unbanned I can also live with that. We should never allow cloyster back in though, anyone who says otherwise just has not played in the cloyster+gems and then cloyster era. I know some people have spoken against conkeldurr, cloyster is conkeldurr but if you give it a single turn it instantly wins the game vs almost every team (unlike volcarona the checks are really scarce and usually bad fits to team, stuff like defensive jirachi and the magnet zone dogass pokémon). Really wanted to end this post on some cloyster hatred for good measure since it is being brought up again.
Cheers