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Our next suspect will be Rufflet. This is a re-suspect, and we are looking at the possibility of unbanning Rufflet. You can find the previous discussion here and the previous vote here.
The DLC has changed a lot about the SS LC metagame. Notably, it has drastically increased the average speed of Pokemon in the metagame; with Mienfoo, Staryu, and Abra abound, 16 is no longer a premium Speed tier, and Pokemon can more comfortably invest in bulk instead of creeping one another. Additionally, Chinchou is no longer the sole viable Electric-type, which impedes Rufflet's ability to freely spam Brave Bird as it was before. Fast special attackers are now much more prominent, limiting Rufflet's effectiveness as a set-up sweeper with Bulk Up.
The council believes that the drastic changes that DLC has caused may allow the tier to comfortably handle Rufflet once again, and as such it deserves a re-suspect.
As with Chlorophyll, the voting requirements have been lowered from 80 to 78 GXE for this suspect.
The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.
GXE
minimum games
78
50
78.2
49
78.4
48
78.6
47
78.8
46
79
45
79.2
44
79.4
43
79.6
42
79.8
41
80
40
80.2
39
80.4
38
80.6
37
80.8
36
81
35
81.2
34
81.4
33
81.6
32
81.8
31
82
30
For this suspect test, we will be using the regular LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with LCRR to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here (not posted yet) to post your proof. Rufflet will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, August 16th, 11:59 PM EST.
When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.
Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.
Yes, it has increased the speed tier, but this barely hinders the effectiveness of Rufflet's Choice Scarf set. The mentioned pokemon also can't switch into Rufflet, which means it still has crazy potential when switching in on a slower pokemon like Mareanie, Foongus ir Trapinch, which are also still prominent in the metagame.
For what pokemon does this help in taking a hit from Rufflet? As soon as the bird gets on the field, it 2hkos the entire tier by my knowledge. Admittedly I haven't calced for every single mon, so please call me out here if I'm wrong.
Yes, but now Chinchou has fallen out of grace and Magnemite is the sole viable Electric-type, so I don't see how this has changed. If anything, this is better for Rufflet, as Chinchou is faster than Rufflet, while Magnemite is not, which means it is less afraid of facing the latter.
This is entirely true. Rufflet's Bulk Up set has gotten a lot worse. It's breaking potential with it's Choice Scarf and Choice Band sets has barely changed, however, and given the amount of Pokémon that can answer to these sets, I think that Rufflet is still broken and should not be allowed back into SSLC.
I'm not going to write an essay to communicate that Rufflet should remain banned. I think it is of note that CB Rufflet is distinctly worse than before and that there are about 3 more Pokemon which can revenge kill an unboosted Rufflet easily.
That being said, Rufflet will crush most compositions of teams assuming it hits the appropriate move. Flying resists are less good now than when Rufflet was banned; Onix is generally a so-so Pokemon and the reintroduction of Rufflet funnels us into running vulnerable teams. As purely conjecture at this point in time, but Rufflet can still viable pick: 1) any set it wishes for on Webs 2) Choice Scarf 3) Choice Band. Each of these general options is difficult to manage in their own right, but the metagame also requires accommodation for things like Diglett, Abra, and to a lesser extent Ponyta.
Between the little true and successful counterplay offered against Rufflet and the dynamics of managing this powerful breaker, I do not think Rufflet has a chance of coming across as a fair and balanced Pokemon at this point in time. Further, I do not think that Rufflet has more downsides than when it was banned.
I'm very confused towards why we're doing this suspect before the next DLC comes out, which will give us all the fossil mons back. I feel like Rufflet would be much more likely to get unbanned then.
By doing this suspect I feel like we've put ourselves in a weird situation. Either Rufflet gets unbanned, and for reasons outlined above is still a very difficult Pokemon to counter. We just deal with it until DLC 2 comes out in a few months, leaving us with a meta that is even more threat-filled and matchupy than it already is for a significant amount of time. Or, Rufflet stays banned, and eventually DLC 2 rolls out, giving us several bird checks, possibly making us need to retest it again. I feel like it would be a better idea to retest it once we have stuff like Tirtouga that can reliably switch in. As it is, the meta hasn't shifted enough to make Rufflet balanced imo.
If we're going through with the suspect anyway, I'd vote to keep it banned.
This is a technical question about the suspect test: why was the name of the ladder changed during the suspect test? It seems like all progress one has made on the "LC" ladder has been removed and one has to restart on the "LC (Suspect Test)" ladder, which is not particularly motivational.
I will be voting to keep Rufflet banned. While I do not think that Rufflet is anywhere near the problem that it was at the time of its last suspect, I still believe it would be an unhealthy presence in the metagame. The reason why comes down to how Rufflet warps teams in the builder.
In our current metagame, teams are broadly reliant on soft checks. Pawniard and Ferroseed take on large roles right now as broad spectrum checks to the tier's threats, with the former handling Abra, Vullaby, and Wingull, and the latter handling Abra, Staryu, and Porygon. These mons work in tandem with other soft checks like bulky Porygon, Mudbray, Mareanie, and Spritzee. While all of these mons can be worn down by the threats they check, their general bulk hells them role compress well and handle - somewhat - various threats as need be during games.
Rufflet throws this dynamic out the window. It is important to contextualize this point: Rufflet does not appear to be the diverse and extreme threat that it was before. The Bulk Up set has been limited by more speed and SpA in the tier, and Choice Band is fairly slow (though extremely powerful still). Choice Scarf is its best set at the moment, so the threat of multiple sets is not what it once was. With that being said, though, the Scarf set is still strong enough to tear through every one of the soft checks I listed. After a Knock, Ferro, Mare, Bray, Pory, and Spritz all get blown away by Brave Bird. Pawniard can handle it a hit, but is forced into what can be a game-losing 50/50 every time it switches in, as it can just as easily be blown away by Close Combat. Onix, which is at a nadir of its viability right now, is brought back into the fore as the most reliable Rufflet check. While teams right now can get away without a proper flying resist for Vullaby, especially with Spritzee, this is not at all the case with Rufflet in the picture. Moreover, Pawniard can also have its clock cleaned by Heat Wave Vullaby. Onix avoids most of these pitfalls, but can still get trunched by CC at the wrong moment and has very little of the defensive utility that these other soft checks have, as the only special threat it checks is the rare Vulpix. Pawniard team can get by ok, but Pawniard is stretched in every direction and can easily be overwhelmed, leading to a cascade effect where Vullaby or Wingull or Abra goes buck wild thanks to Rufflet's pressure. You could run Onix alongside a steel type, but this leaves you with two defensive mons weak to the best mon in the tier, Mienfoo, and causes even further problems.
I encourage other voters to take a deep look at how Rufflet forces them and others on the ladder to build. Just because the mon isn't blowing stuff away like it used doesn't mean it would be a healthy presence in the metagame.
This is a technical question about the suspect test: why was the name of the ladder changed during the suspect test? It seems like all progress one has made on the "LC" ladder has been removed and one has to restart on the "LC (Suspect Test)" ladder, which is not particularly motivational.
i think rufflets broken, my team got swept by it and the general power creep rise hasnt really done much. not having the atk drop from cc is SICK. ban this shit.
as an aside i make a big deal about hating playing gen 8, but post-dlc is actually kinda fun. i'm never gonna be good at lc of course but this meta looks promising to me. ban rufflet though
As a quick follow up post to my initial thoughts, there are downsides to running Rufflet and there are plenty of tradeoffs to consider with CB and Scarf. That does not change the fact that Rufflet is very, very good and still forces teams to walk narrow lines in dealing with its stupidly powerful attacks and coverage. Rufflet is still broken in a traditional sense and is not particularly additive to the expression of skill in this meta even if overlooking the nature of Hustle. I think much of what has been said in this thread is very fair towards the nature of this suspect.
I do not feel that Rufflet nor a Rufflet meta meet the thresholds of manageable or skillful which ought to be necessary for reintroduction.
Part of what made Rufflet broken in the previous meta was the relative lack of viable fast special attackers that could keep the band and bulk up sets from wreaking havoc. Choice scarf was a great option as well, and each set being so good and requiring completely different counterplay forced players to guess what (arguably) broken set they were facing at team preview. The expansion brought us the special attackers required to keep those bulk up and band sets in check, and with choice scarf being the most consistently good set that unpredictability factor that contributed to its ban is gone. The introduced mons were more than just those strong special attackers, however: the defensive cores that have come to dominate the post expansion meta allow balance to keep most strong attackers in check with a combination of bulk and offensive power that prevents them from getting into a position where something must be sacked. Choice Scarf rufflet alone is able to tear this dynamic apart in a way that is incredibly unhealthy, and has too few downsides that come along with this ability to justify its reintroduction to the tier.
I'll post the team that I used for reqs here to illustrate how its balance breaking ability can be exploited on an actual team:
Pawniard @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock
Vullaby (F) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Def / 156 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Brave Bird
- Defog
This probably wouldn't be a team suitable for tournaments were we to actually unban Rufflet; I designed it to be as mindless as possible so that I could watch TV while laddering. Still, it demonstrates how Rufflet can fit on a team quite well and by comparing it to some of the more common defensive cores you can get a good picture of what situations it forces. Here are some samples of those cores lifted from the LPL replay thread:
What balances powerful offensive threats like Wingull, Abra or offensive Vullaby against these types of teams are the conditions that they have to fulfill in order to punch through defensive cores. These Pokemon cannot knock out even the defensive Pokemon that they have super effective STAB attacks against without some chip (unless they have life orb, in which case Wingull gains more problems with longevity and Abra gains problems with trappers). Over the course of a match the fighting resist and the fighting type will almost always end up losing their items in a balance vs balance game, but even if they get in against a weakened Pokemon that they can kill usually the opponent can use some combination of prediction or a hard stop like Porygon or Ferroseed to have a chance of not losing a mon.
A balanced Rufflet (again, talking primarily about the choice scarf set) should behave in a similar way to these mons. When Wingull or Offensive Vullaby kills something the other player often cannot revenge it with their own fast offensive threat: they must risk a speed tie, bring in a defensive Pokemon or bring in a Scarfer that must commit to a move that will often lose momentum if the player does not predict right. They are not as able to threaten the opposing team from the beginning of the game when compared to dedicated breakers, but escaping punishment is a valuable enough trade that they remain the attackers of choice for many balance teams. Band mienfoo, Life Orb Abra and the like can start wreaking havoc from turn one if they wish, but they are much more susceptible to being revenged by fast special attackers and Diglett respectively. What pushes Rufflet over the edge is that it possesses every bit of the wallbreaking power of dedicated breakers and is as difficult to hard punish as Wingull or Vullaby thanks to its typing and speed tier.
You can compare how balanced wallbreakers, fast offensive threats and Rufflet behave by looking at the teams above to demonstrate this. I'll use LilyAC's team in the first screenshot as an example: From the outset of the game Wingull, Sashbra and Offensive Vullaby can come in on at most two Pokemon if they want to start breaking down the team (Wingull and non LO Abra actually can't come in on anything, and offensive Vullaby can come in on two Pokemon, Grookey and Ponyta-G, both of which are able give it significant damage). Even if they can come in on something and threaten it out, a couple Pokemon will have to lose their items or get chipped before they start absolutely forcing kills. Rufflet can come in on at least three members of each of these teams and threaten to down a mon, and like LO abra and band mienfoo there is not a single mon on the opposing team that can comfortably come in and deny Rufflet a significant chance of getting a kill. I would even argue that the situations that Rufflet forces are even more threatening than those of life orb attackers and Band foo: the former can be dealt with by diglett in an emergency and the latter despite its incredible power still cannot break through most dedicated fighting resists that still have their items. Rufflet can easily 2HKO every defensive Pokemon in the tier that doesn't resist its STAB, and the steels and rocks that resist its STAB cannot comfortably come in because of Close Combat and u-turning to trappers. If the rock or the steel type is overloaded (a situation that Pawniard often finds itself in even in a meta without Rufflet) it often doesn't need to play any prediction games at all: the chip that it can do even to resists is more than enough to prevent them from adequately checking other members of its team.
When I was running the above team on ladder and facing these balance cores Rufflet was able to force situations again and again where the opponent would have to sacrifice mons to safely get in their flying resist, but once that flying resist was in I could simply go to mienfoo or trap it, ensuring that I could force an identical situation or dispose of their flying resist within a few turns. This team is no work of genius: it is a pretty rudimentary bird spam build that I ran into near mirrors of more than once on the ladder. These near mirrors were perhaps the greatest proof of Rufflet's toxicity in practice for me: in both the games that I can remember both my opponent and I concluded that the best play was to try to force Rufflet 50/50s from turn one and lead Rufflet, and in both games the turn one Rufflet tie would end up deciding the victor in the long run. The situations that Rufflet forces are far too easy to create for the Rufflet user and the risk/reward is too skewed in the Rufflet user's favor for it to be balanced. That is why we both decided to lead Rufflet: if one of us led Rufflet and the other did not the person who led it would have an advantage from turn one as they would be on the beneficial end of the first set of toxic 50/50s that Rufflet creates.
I can see the argument that the teams I used as examples of how Rufflet's broken attributes play out against standard teams are from a meta where Rufflet is banned and thus should not be used as evidence of Rufflet being broken in a hypothetical new meta. If Rufflet's main STAB was something that LC is not accustomed to this would be true, but teams are already forced to be very prepared against flying types because of Vullaby's reign over the tier. Every solid team in this meta factors strong offensive flying types into the building process, but Rufflet is simply better than other flying types at muscling through normal flying type stops. The meta would shift over time to find ways to deal with Rufflet's offensive presence, but I find it unlikely that among these would be healthy defensive options; Flying STAB + Close Combat with the option to use trappers limits real defensive counterplay too effectively.
