Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Killer Queen

Status
Not open for further replies.

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader



Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to suspect test Pheromosa.



Pheromosa has been one of the strongest Pokemon in SS OU ever since it was released with DLC 2: Crown Tundra. It has a devastating combination of superb attacking stats and nearly unmatched speed, meaning that not many Pokemon are capable of checking and countering it. Pheromosa also has the ability Beast Boost, which means it can get even stronger or quicker upon getting a kill. Despite these impressive offensive characteristics, Pheromosa has to play the role of glass cannon due to pitiful bulk, oftentimes being unable to survive unboosted attacks. If you can get Pheromosa in safely, then it is going to deal out lots of damage with its various effective sets and practical movepool.

Pheromosa can make use of both physically and specially oriented sets, too. One of the physical sets is the hard hitting Choice Band variant, hitting very hard with STAB Close Combat and U-turn. Close Combat is capable of putting a dent into even the most durable resists whereas U-turn allows for Pheromosa to deal respectable amounts of damage while retaining momentum and not having to take a hit if the opponent survives. It is true that plenty of Pokemon are capable of resisting this combination, however, such as Toxapex, Clefable, Tapu Fini, Landorus-Therian, and Zapdos. Pheromosa has coverage options to help cover specific Pokemon such as Triple Axel for the aforementioned Flying types and Poison Jab for the aforementioned Fairy types. Both of these moves find their way onto most Choice Band Pheromosa sets with fringe options like Drill Run and Throat Chop being viable, but less common. Choice Band Pheromosa undoubtedly has some counters, like Toxapex and Buzzwole, and checks, like Clefable and Tapu Fini, that are very present in the metagame. It is worth noting that it occasionally is paired with Future Sight users like Slowbro, who can Teleport into Pheromosa and potentially lead to the above Pokemon being incapable of switching into Pheromosa. One must be particularly careful when playing around this scary combination, but it is true that Choice Band Pheromosa is reliant on support to break through these Pokemon that would otherwise handle it.

While staying on the topic of physically based sets, Pheromosa can run Heavy Duty Boots or even Protective Pads. Heavy Duty Boots allows for Pheromosa to sacrifice the power of Choice Band in order to be able to switch moves. This means it can take advantage of the Ice coverage from Triple Axel or Ice Beam while still being able to click STAB moves against Pokemon they are effective against. The same applies to the other potential coverage moves such as Poison Jab or Drill Run, hitting Fairy types like Clefable and Poison types like Toxapex respectively. It does significantly less damage, oftentimes falling short of breaking through walls the choice set would, but it is more capable of picking apart more offensive teams due to being able to switch coverage moves to hit the target. Heavy Duty Boots allows for Pheromosa to pivot in repeatedly if hazards are on the field whereas Protective Pads allows for Pheromosa to avoid getting crippled by Rocky Helmet or specific punishing abilities. Unfortunately, this Pheromosa will always fall short of breaking through walls like Toxapex, Moltres, and Buzzwole while Fairy types like Clefable and Tapu Fini can at least check it, too.

Pheromosa can also be a potent special attacker with great sweeping capabilities. One of the most powerful sets for Pheromosa is the Quiver Dance variant, which is able to make use of Life Orb boosted STAB Focus Blast with BoltBeam coverage of Ice Beam and Shock Wave. Focus Blast is able to make quick work of most Pokemon that do not resist it with a boost so long as it connects. Ice Beam is a great compliment to Focus Blast as it hits Flying types like Zapdos, Landorus-T, and Tornadus-T and specific Dragon types like Latios and Dragapult. Shock Wave may seem like a bizarre choice due to its low base power, but it allows for Pheromosa to hit would-be counters such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Moltres with a boosted super effective hit, too. Bug Buzz is also a viable option, allowing you to make quicker work of Psychic types like Slowbro and Slowking while minimizing the reliance on Focus Blast, but it often takes a backseat to Shock Wave. Overall, the Quiver Dance set is strong enough to muscle past the most durable special walls in the metagame, but it is oftentimes at the mercy of Focus Blast’s accuracy and can struggle to break past Clefable or Aegislash without significant damage being done to them previously. It is challenging to conventionally revenge kill with a Quiver Dance up as well, but it is possible to not let Pheromosa get a free turn to Quiver Dance with aggressive play or take out a weakened Pheromosa with priority moves, even if they are resisted as Pheromosa is quite fragile.

Pheromosa’s Beast Boost makes it so that Pheromosa can snowball to uncontrollable levels if it is able to get a kill. For example, the Quiver Dance set getting a kill could mean another boost to special attack, which could allow for Pheromosa to muscle past a potential check, or the Choice Band set getting a kill could mean it gets a speed boost, which could make it impossible for an offensive team to revenge kill. When you couple this with the immense threat that Pheromosa already poses to teams, it becomes clear that opposing offensive teams are going to struggle to contain Pheromosa, especially if they do not have multiple forms of strong priority as trading fodder can end in being swept.

The main issues with Pheromosa is that the main checks and counters to it are seen as top tier Pokemon such as Toxapex or Clefable and that Pheromosa has lackluster bulk. It is true that these two Pokemon have good match-ups with Pheromosa, but even this is not foolproof with the rise of Shock Wave and Poison Jab as options on Pheromosa. Of course, Pheromosa can only run 1 item and 4 moves, so it is limited to what it can muscle past. Beyond the aforementioned checks, Buzzwole is a blanket counter to physical Pheromosa, other Fairy types like Tapu Fini are capable of checking Pheromosa if it is not already snowballing out of control, and less common options like Aegislash can also do very well against most Pheromosa. It can be argued that this is an insufficient amount of counterplay and that Pheromosa restricts teambuilding because of this, but it is still worth noting that there is a group of viable Pokemon that can contain Pheromosa on a consistent basis. Of course, it is still worth noting that Pheromosa’s paper thin defenses can be exploited by most neutral attacks, so if it cannot OHKO things, then it could be a struggle.

Overall, Pheromosa is a potent offensive force in the current metagame, but there is counterplay present in the metagame and some restrictions to what it can afford to do. It can be argued that Pheromosa imposes restrictions on how we construct teams and that it’s ability to snowball with Beast Boost makes it too much for the metagame to handle. However, some common options are able to minimize the impact Pheromosa has on the game. Pheromosa is a naturally strong and fast Pokemon with a movepool that allows for it to cover most things it encounters and an impressive assortment of viable sets, but it is still one of the most frail Pokemon in the metagame, thus making it support reliant. Due to the points outlined above, the OU council has deemed Pheromosa worthy of a suspect test.


  • ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTB. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTB FINCH
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Pheromosa, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until December 17th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Pheromosa vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, TDK and Eo Ut Mortus, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
 
Last edited:
Screenshot 2020-12-06 at 12.22.12 AM.png

Pheromosa has ravaged the OverUsed metagame since its unban, with limited counter play. Toxapex and Moltres are the best counters, but they get destroyed by a special set with shock wave, with little prior damage. Other checks like clefable and Tapu Fini get destroyed by a poison jab, and Zapdos gets nailed by an ice beam on the switch. Pheromosa is never going to wreck everything against a well prepared team, but it is going to apply a lot of pressure.
Having extremely strong mons with only a couple of checks is not new, and not banworthy, but these mons could be revenged with a faster pokemon or a scarfer, or at least did not pressure teambuilding as much. Pheromosa is not "broken", but it is unhealthy. A bulky offensive team will have to rely on getting lucky with moltres and zapdos's abilities, or not getting destroyed by banded poison jab on tapu fini. It is impossible to build a good offensive team without those responses while still not damaging the team's momentum, which other checks like Toxapex and Clefable unfortunately do.

For this reason, I will be voting BAN.
 
Last edited:

IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Wanna start this off by showing proof of reqs attainment and sharing the team I used my entire run:
Pheromosa.png
Screenshot 2020-12-05 at 7.41.17 PM.png <-- CLICK HERE
Built this a few weeks ago as basically my take on birdspam in CG OU. Stone Edge Lucha synergises really well with Dragonite and SD Explosion Lando picked up some surprise KOs early game. Not a difficult concept, but the Dragonite set is one of my favourites as it will always always get 1-2 DDs off. Main issue with it is the matchup against Triple Axel Pheromosa, best way to handle it is to just try and win with Hawlucha as quick as possible. Probably should’ve gotten reqs in under 40 games but a combination of poor luck and absence of thinking made me need a few extra (and a random Sitrus Berry Hydreigon like wtf do I do in that situation).

Now, onto the topic at hand, Pheromosa. In my opinion, there are 2 sets that are significantly better than the others, those being:
Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Triple Axel
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
and
Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Shock Wave
Of course there is also the option to run a Jolly speed boosting variant as well, which is just as potent and really improves the HO matchup, as seen in the infamous game between SoulWind and Finch for Smogon Tour playoffs. Other variants I’ve seen include Heavy Duty Boots and Choice Scarf, however they are vastly inferior to the sets above.

The banded set is probably the most problematic, as very few mons in OU enjoy switching into either CC or U-turn, and those which do often struggle against Future Sight support which we see oh so often paired with Pheromosa. Mons like Toxapex and G-Weezing can’t handle both, Tapu Fini doesn’t really enjoy eating both hits considering its method of recovery is Draining Kiss, Clef also has similar issues. Recently there’s been an uptick in G-Slowking usage, as that completely shuts down the QD set and also takes on the CB set fairly well, the point being that the pressure FSight applies in combination with Phero is absurd.
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 89-105 (29.2 - 34.5%)
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Weezing-Galar: 344-408 (102.9 - 122.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 53-63 (15.8 - 18.8%)
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 103-123 (30 - 35.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 110-129 (32 - 37.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 196-232 (57.1 - 67.6%)
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%)
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 58-70 (14.7 - 17.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 101-119 (25.6 - 30.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%)
Essentially you see that with Future Sight up, Pheromosa almost always nabs a kill, and even without Future Sight its damage output is on another level, synergising really well with mons like Urshifu, Nidoking and Spectrier.

The QD set plays second fiddle to the CB set, as it is slightly awkward to set up due to Phero's abysmal bulk, and also relies on Focus Blast hitting. However, against fatter teams this set absolutely tears through, and if it does manage to get a QD off it becomes nearly unstoppable.
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 447-530 (62.6 - 74.2%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 671-790 (93.9 - 110.6%) - !!!
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 239-282 (59.7 - 70.5%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight: 356-421 (89 - 105.2%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 138-164 (40.2 - 47.8%)
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Shock Wave vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 205-244 (59.7 - 71.1%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 66-79 (16.7 - 20%)
Of course the main reason why Pheromosa is being suspected and not quickbanned is the shameful bulk, common priority users like Urshifu, Cinderace and Rillaboom all can revenge kill it with some prior chip and it will not be switching into any attacks any time soon.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.6 - 76.3%)
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 113-133 (39.9 - 46.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (90.1 - 106%)
So what we've got is a mon that decimates both HO and stall, and is an absolute pain in the ass to prep for in the builder. The ability to run it with Toxapex lures in teams such as this one adds to its dominance over the tier right now. I will 100% be voting BAN. Thanks for reading this far.

tl;dr Broken mon, please vote ban as it has no place in this tier.
 

Zneon

uh oh
is a Community Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus


Hi all, so today I want to talk about Pheromosa and why opinion on it in the metagame. Now, you may ask? You already think its a Pokemon that you don't want banned so why are you talking about it again exactly? Well the more I used Pheromosa, the more my opinion of the Pokemon shifted drastically and now after a lot of using it and seeing it in games and rethinking about the stuff I said in my last post on it, I feel its a Pokemon that simply hurts the metagame and I feel needs to be banned. So I'll go over its sets one by one and using them to say why Pheromosa is not a healthy, nor balanced Pokemon in the metagame.

File:Bag Heavy-Duty Boots Sprite.png
Heavy-Duty Boots
File:Bag Heavy-Duty Boots Sprite.png


So the first set on the list is the Heavy-Duty Boots set, news flash this is the most healthy and least problematic set that Pheromosa can use. Reason why I feel this is because for the same reason as my last post, while it can easily pivot out of its checks and counters such as Clefable, Toxapex, and Moltres they are all outstanding forces in the metagame and since Pheromosa while strong lacks the power to really overwhelm them it mostly just spams U-turn, this is the least broken but that's really only because this more of a offensive utility set rather than just straight up wallbreaking or sweeping set like the next two I am going to talk about, the last one especially I think to be very broken in the metagame and changed my perspective on it the more I used it. So yeah to conclude, Heavy-Duty Boots Mosa is healthy, moving on.

File:Bag Choice Band Sprite.png
Choice Band
File:Bag Choice Band Sprite.png


This is where it starts to get pretty dangerous from here. Choice Band is an absolute nuke and unlike HDB Mosa it can spam its spams with much less drawback because it really does lack a lot of switch ins outside of a small pool of Pokemon, the biggest difference here is that it can now just overwhelm them late-game much easier because of the insane power difference in comparison with HDB Mosa even though that set is mixed. Tapu Fini and Clefable would be able to deal with HDB, now it cannot really deal with Choice Band really well on the threat of Poison Jab for both or even Triple Axel in Clefable's case, in Tapu Fini's case, it has a complete lack of recovery outside of Leftovers and Draining Kiss, and that's a big problem especially if Fini is the only Mosa check on your team. U-turn is still completely no drawback especially from Choice Band since the insane power from its U-turn is comical, and the momentum it can gain from that due to it forces switches combined with how good its U-turn is makes it a very hard Pokemon to deal with, however there is one more set I want to get to.

File:Bag Life Orb Sprite.png
Quiver Dance
File:Bag Life Orb Sprite.png


Okay I'm going to get straight to the point, Quiver Dance Pheromosa is ludicrously broken and its the main reason why I want it to go because the complete lack of answers to this set is apparent and if you don't get a soft check to it like Clefable, it can and will sweep your team, and it does this with little to no support because of how easy it can force switches. Pokemon that are forced out by Pheromosa such as Heatran, Ferrothorn and Garchomp to bring in something like Moltres or Toxapex are now in trouble because they are no longer really able to deal with Shock Wave at +1, especially if they are in Shock Wave range, and it gets especially worse if it gets a +1 SpA boost after bopping something after a Quiver Dance. Its just such a ludicrously potent Pokemon that combined with the Choice Band set, it really has no counters and a lack of consistent checks. Honestly I feel on its own Quiver Dance Pheromosa is too strong for OU however when you combine its potency with the potency of Choice Band, the only consistent check to Pheromosa as a whole is Clefable however even that needs to be as healthy as possible to deal with QD Pheromosa, so it really does resort to using multiple checks on a team just to deal with Pheromosa consistently, and in my eyes that's unhealthy, broken, and has a terrible influence on how we build teams and this set just consistently gives the user an advantage.

Offensive Counterplay

Yeah, no, it's not there at all, Pheromosa is the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier outside of Regieleki and it hits ludicrously hard on both sides of the attacking spectrum, so really the only why to really consistent deal with Mosa offensively is through Choice Scarf users and priority, now for Choice Scarf users we don't really have that many viable ones. There is Spectrier, Tapu Lele and Latios, aka our best Choice Scarf users however need to be brought in safely and that's not really easy considering that Pheromosa is going to be spamming U-turn if its Choice Band. In the case of it being QD, they need to be very healthy to really take a hit from it, because if they don't Pheromosa can start snowballing once it gets a QD up, which isn't hard because it forces switches left and right. Now there's priority, now the problem is with our Espeeders being gone we lack really good priority users outside of Urshifu-S and Rillaboom, and another thing is that the Pheromosa user doesn't even need to risk it, they can just switch into into a check to those if they expect the priority, and most of the time they are going to be forced to use it otherwise they can be overwhelmed by Pheromosa's offensive presence. So overall consistent offensive counterplay to Pheromosa is non-existent in my eyes.

Defensive Counterplay

Defensive Counterplay is more interesting, because while it is not as completely small and just non-existent as its offensive counterplay, its not that big either or big enough to make it manageable. Moltres, Zapdos, Clefable, Toxapex, Buzzwole, and Tapu Fini. That is a lot of Pokemon and they are very common as well. However the more I thought about it the more I realised, is that really it? These Pokemon are super common but that just isn't enough defensive counterplay, the pool of mons that check it are pretty small, and this gets worse when you add the CB + QD set together and the result is that Clefable is the only consistent form of defensive Pheromosa counterplay we have in the tier. QD Mosa beats every single one of these Pokemon with ease and that is really just with its BoltBeam coverage alone, and considering how easy it is to snowball with this monster that's not a good thing. Like I said, Clefable is the most consistent answer to Pheromosa overall, however even that isn't safe in my eyes. CB Mosa can be a problem if its Poison Jab and at +1 Clefable needs to be as healthy as possible to beat Pheromosa one on one. Overall, defensive counterplay, while much better than offensive counterplay is still pretty linear outside of these Pokemon and to consistently deal with Pheromosa in a game you have to use multiple checks on a team, which I feel is awful for teambuilding.

Conclusion

So in conclusion, I want Pheromosa gone. Its extreme potency wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't so easy to slap a Pheromosa set on a team and do it consistently as well. The CB + QD sets in my eyes have a pretty awful impact on how we build teams and its pretty much gotten to a point where you have to use multiple checks to it just to deal with 1 Pokemon. I don't like it, I don't like the awful impact Pheromosa has on teambuilding and after a lot of thought, I really don't like it being in the OU tier. I will try to get reqs even though you all know I am bad at playing Pokemon at smogon dot com, but when I do I will vote for it to be banned.
 

Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I figured, since everybody's gonna say similar things I might as well focus on two most important elements that push Pheromosa over the top in my opinon, which are CB U-Turn and the lack of overlapping checks to its 2 most threatening sets.
U-Turn has been a great move since its introduction in DPP but Pheromosa's use of it is on a completely different. What's so amazing about it is that as long as Pheromosa has been brought safely on the field and can't be outsped by the foe it involves very little risk for its user and big trouble for the opponent, because even on a resistance it's gonna deal huge damage. The risk vs reward ratio that U-Turn has removes a lot of reliance on prediction for its user. But it also allows the Pheromosa user to do some sort of hit and run strategy, where you can bring in your Pheromosa safely on a teleport on basically anything slower, click U-turn and either get good chip damage on the mon that you teleported in front of, or force a switch and get the initiative. The damage output from U-Turn also means that you sometimes don't even need to predict the dedicated check to make progress, for example against Bold Clef, if it comes in twice on a U-turn and gets forced out each time by a threat that comes in on U-Turn, it's no longer able to take two Close Combats (unless there are 4 low rolls). The best ways to punish U-Turn are Hazards, Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, Static and Flame Body, however you can avoid the pressure from the two aforementioned by pairing it with a Tapu Fini or a Cleric, like Clefable. Rocky Helmet alone is not so annoying because in most matches it doesn't make much of a difference wether Pheromosa is at 87.5 or 37.5%, however coupled with hazards it can get dangerous for the Pheromosa user. But you can't slap a rocky helmet on anything because otherwise you'll be taking 40% while Phero only takes 17%, it needs to be a sturdy switch-in like Toxapex, Landorus or Buzzwole. Generally I'd say this set shines the most on bulky teams, with Teleport, Heal Bell and Knock Off support (to remove RH). I find this core to be particularly strong, with the defensive trio covering most of the meta while providing amazing support, especially with double Teleport allowing the hit and run strategy I mentioned. Add a hazard remover and another breaker that can pressure both Clef and Pex and you have a strong team (I personnally went with Nidoking and Moltres but i'm sure you can build something nice with Drill). To sum it up, while the choice band set has many advantages, I think the most outstanding one and that pushes it over the top is U-Turn.
The other problem I want to talk about is how difficult it is to prepare yourself against Pheromosa. As everybody knows, on top of having that amazing CB set, it also has the quiver dance set which is running wild in the metagame. I don't think figuring out which set the opponent has is too big of an issue, as when you see HO you can assume QD and when you see Slowbro (or just balance in general) you can assume Band or Boots. Let's instead look at their respective counterplay and see if we can find some good overlapping:
CB Pheromosa has :Moltres: :Toxapex: and :Buzzwole: as counters, and :Aegislash: :Zapdos: :Clefable: :Tapu Fini: and (RH) :Landorus-Therian: as checks.
Quiver Dance Pheromosa has :Clefable: :Slowking-Galar: :Volcarona: :Aegislash: (lefties) as counters, and :Victini: :Blacephalon: SpD :Toxapex: and SpD :Moltres: as checks (and surely some other obscure picks I haven't thought about)
There's clearly not a lot of overlapping. The best options are Clef (which is clearly not a safe pick against either sets, as QD just needs a little bit chip to 2HKO it, and CB should be obvious), SpD Pex (which needs black sludge, haze and no electric terrain), Bold 252 252 Flame Body Volc (which kinda sucks), Aegislash (which is decent but needs lefties), and finally SpD Moltres (which takes 51% on a max roll from unboosted shock wave).
Obviously, there are some ways to play around it that don't involve a hard counter but if you want to build a team with a solid match-up against it, you are going to either need one of the specific all-around checks I mentioned or you'll have to dedicate two slots on your team, which is really restricting when also considering all the other threats you have to deal with in the metagame. And chances are, you still lose against it because it has future sight/electric terrain support and your Pex just dies.

tldr: Pheromosa's biggest issues are in my eyes the way it restrains teambuilding with its two main sets, which have very different counterplay, and the way U-Turn consistently rewards the Pheromosa user with big damage output and momentum gain, for little risk involved.

There's obviously a lot more to be said about Pheromosa, which you can read on other posts.
 
Last edited:

fish anemometer

I ❤️HOLE
is a Tiering Contributoris the defending PU Circuit Champion
Screen Shot 2020-12-05 at 5.58.57 AM.png

Hey, been playing a lot of top ladder OU and I'm currently very slightly leaning on ban for this. However, I think people are taking Mosa's (and futureport's) brokenness a bit too far. It may sound weird but I think mosa can also sometimes be a healthy form of speed control. It's most likely a broken pokemon, but there is a say for the "no-ban" side I understand and will try to voice:

You can usually tell which variant of Pheromosa it is based on team preview and adjust your methods of scouting its set. Mosa on HO teams is almost always quiver dance. The quiver dance set also likes to sit there in the back waiting for the right moment to come out and sweep. Usually, the only time people ever lead special mosa is against rain to surprise pelipers with shock wave. (Although this isn't so common anymore as most rain users have learned their lesson from the first time).
When people lead Mosa on balance or BO, it is most likely a U-turn variant. See how it's being played and react accordingly. Yes, the checks for physical and special can be different, but that also forces the Mosa player to play or build different. It's versatile, but you can use your wit to narrow down possibilities. Magearna's versatility puts the roach to shame.

Both physical and special sets must sacrifice either power (by running boots or protective pads) or risk taking chip damage/status. Status is obviously a big deal but chip damage on Mosa is pretty big as well. Hazards+helmet damage/life orb recoil etc puts it into an awkward spot where it can't really switch in even on weaker or not very effective attacks. Priority is definitely big too, no clue why some think it's unreliable. After 1 stealth rock switchin Mosa will be dying to banded Rillaboom. Add life orb recoil or more hazard switch ins and Cinderace and Urshifu will start killing. The quiver dance set if properly pressured will pretty much never get a chance to click quiver (unless screens), if it does, it will probably kill itself with life orb before finishing off a team.

As for defensive checks; balanced teams may have enough honestly. Just look at the great posts above naming them off. A lot of those are very good meta relevant pokemon with so much more to add to a team than just checking Mosa. Hell, Pex comes out of the situation healthier than when it came in...
A problem arises with the "futureport" strategy of safely getting Mosa in along with a 120bp psychic move. Some people tend to act as if there is no counterplay to this when that is not remotely true. You can definitely pressure slowtwins enough to make them think twice about clicking port. Stall teams have it harder but there's still options like knock off+tspikes (stall is bad). Additionally, Pheromosa is so frail you can sometimes trade with it too on the future sight turn. It doesn't have the luxury of Urshifu of definitely getting a big hit off and coming out safe.

Now on to why Mosa can sometimes be healthy: While building for it is hard (but a far cry from the hardest in the tier), it helps stuff like weatherless offense or balance deal with weather much better, as it can outspeed some weather ability boost mons. It can check fast balance breakers like Spectrier (the true most broken pokemon of current OU), Koko and Torn-t. Teams often don't have the slots to check all these guys defensively and adding a glue Mosa for speed control can be really nice for teambuilding!
:smogduck:


Tl;dr: you can tell what Mosa you are fighting based on team preview and how it's being played in battle, chip and status makes it hard for it to always do its job and leaves it vulnerable to all priority/weak moves, futureport has more counterplay than what ppl are doing, Mosa can be a really nice form of speed control to help teams deal with all the fast breakers in the tier.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Mosa is broken.

The QD set is a big part of what pushes it over, but the physical sets are still strong, with potential to be unstoppable with Future Sight. Choice Band Pheromosa in particular hits very hard and can clean up offensive teams without having to jump through too many hoops. Quiver Dance Pheromosa does require a QD or a Beast Boost to break through more consistently, but with Focus Blast / Shock Wave / Ice Beam posing such an immense threat to the metagame, it can be brutal and break through any archetype of team with a little leverage.

Forcing teams to run something like Clefable or Aegislash super frequently is not really reasonable, especially given how many teams are structured around luring or crippling the former. Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Moltres can do a good job, especially in the short haul, but all are susceptible to the Quiver Dance set and the potential of Future Sight being paired with Choice Band Pheromosa. There are a handful of other Pokemon in the same boat as these three that perhaps do not see as much usage, but none of them really function as offensive counterplay, which is another big point. Very few things stand a chance at revenge killing Pheromosa, most of them being forms of priority that require it being chipped with various rounds of SR or LO, meaning Pheromosa has already done its thing quite a bit, too.

There are pretty obvious counterarguments about it being fragile, which is entirely fair, and support reliant, which can be true. But these arguments do not really amount to enough because the things you find Pheromosa with (i.e: Teleport users, Future Sight users, and Pokemon that are able to dent Clefable/Fini/Pex) are prominent in the metagame and oftentimes function as offensive/defensive support for other prominent offensive options, too. As for it being fragile, yes this is absolutely a limiting factor, but with the right pivoting and positioning, it's not like you need to get Pheromosa in multiple times. Just getting the QD set in 1-2 times could be enough for it to absolutely demolish the opponent, for example. If it were slower or more vulnerable to priority, then it could be a very appealing counterargument, but I do not believe it is in play to the same extent here.

Pheromosa is too strong for SS OU. There is not enough offensive counterplay, defensive counterplay is circumstantial and limited, and because of this it should be banned from SS OU.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
About :Pheromosa:

I feel this Pokemon is just too much for OU, as it has not only 1, not only 2, but plenty of other Sets, which all can catch the opponent and the counterplay towards it off guard.

First off we have the obviously broken Quiver Dance-Set, which doesn't have much counterplay. Its counterplay is Moltres, Toxapex, and Tapu Fini, but weakened or beforehand Knocked Moltres (HDBs got removed) makes it way harder for Moltres to consistently check Pheromosa. The same trait can be said about Toxapex and Tapu Fini, they are not weak top Stealth Rocks, but when they get knocked or weakened beforehand, Quiver Dance-Pheromosa has an easy field day to crash through these 2 Pokemon as well. Ice Beam gives it great coverage against any flying-type in the tier and Focus Blast nails pretty much everything else in the tier.
Quiver Dance also boosts the absurd good offensive stat of Mosa and also its Speed to an aburs level making it not easy to revengekill as with after a Quiver Dance-boost it is one of the afstest Pokemon in the tier only getting outsped by a very very specific group of Pokemon, weather abusers, the most prominent example here would be Barraskewda. The other form of revengekilling Pheromosa would be with priority moves, but you have to conserve that Pokemon until Pheromosa is down, or else you could end up being swept by it.

On the Choice Band-Set: this Set shouldn't be underestimated as well as it has the coverage to break through a lot of Pokemon in the tier, and if it faces an unfavorable Matchup it just can opt to click U-turn and get in an appropiate partner for it, such as Slowbro or occosionally Slowking to let them handle these threats. Furthermore Pheromosa also profits from their Future-Port com,bination, which proves to be a really strong asset, for supporting Pheromosa and its teammates. Pheromosa can also opt to run Ice Beam instead of Triple Axel to have more longevity against Rough Skin users such as Garchomp, which coming from that strong Pokemon is even a more than clear OHKO coming from that natural high SpA.
Pheromosa also started running Poison Jab on the Choice Band-Set, which grants it the way of bypassing Tapu Fini and Clefable.

Other sets found their merits as well, with Protective Pads being one of the sets, which is strong in its own assets allthough much weaker than the aforementioned sets, but this set has its own advantages over the course of a game, since it doesnt take any contact damage like Flame Body, Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, Static, and the list goes on. This set alone gives Pheromosa the necessary potential to keep itself a whole lot longer in the game.

closing words:
I feel Pheromosa is too much for the tier, as it can bypass its checks rather easily. It can also run a wide variety of sets, which all have to be scouted for.
Furthermore Pheromosas strong offensive typing and strong offensive movepool makes it, that it has no trouble weakening its checks over the course of the game. Revengekilling is almost impossible, when it comes to the Quiver Dance-set as you have to use a certain small pool of weather-reliant sweepers such as Excadrill and Barraskeeda or priority moves to get rid of it.

I'd say BugitOut and would vote BAN on Pheromosa!
 
Firstly, Proof-

Suspect Proof.JPG


Secondly, Team-
Capture 2.JPG


Now that out of the way, let's talk the Killer Queen A.K.A. Pheromosa. Since the release of DLC 2 it has been one of the most offensively potent mon. With it's incredible 137 in both base offenses and an even more impressive 151 speed it was primed to destroy the tier to shreds. Initially there were more pressing mons to deal with but now slowly as they have been removed from the tier, there is no one left for Mosa to hide behind.

Now that little introduction out of the way let's see what it actually does in the tier-

1) Quiver Dance-
This set has just recently gained popularity but it has become it's most dangerous set. With Focus Blast, Ice beam, Shock Wave, it hits the entire meta game at least neutrally while avoiding things like RH, Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, and 30% Contact Abilities which were previously the few things used to keep Mosa in check. If it QDs on the switch and gets a Beast Boost you are staring down a monster with 820 SpAtk and a speed tier that can't be outsped by scarfers under 135 speed which severely limits revenge killing options outside of priority. Few mons which can take a +1 LO hit from this include Spdef Mag( Even Max HP gets OHKOed), Clefable, Pex, Moltres, AV Slowking G, Tapu Fini, Some mons like Lele and Spectrier can also survive a +1 hit but those are not at all switch ins for mosa. Another thing to note is that Fini, Pex and Moltres have to be at quite high health for them to survive, all of them required to be at around 80 to 90% to survive this hit on their standard sets. Those are all the OU mons that can survive a +1 hit. Some notable UU mons which are also decent Special mosa counters are Marowak A with lightning rod, Bulky Volcarona and Aegislash. This set alone shows the strain that mosa puts on the teambuilding and in battle. You are nearly required to have one of these mons and keep them at high healths. Out offensing it is very difficult because as mentioned before you require a scarfer above 135 speed or priority but these are still not stopping it to get kills against rest of your offense team which tends to be frailer and slower than mosa. Running multiple Scarfers/ Priority mons is just testament again to it's restrictive effects. But this is not it's only set.

2) Choice Band-
This is another devastating set to face. This set takes advantage of a very hard hitting Uturn (Fun Fact-Strongest Uturn in OU) to maintain momentum while doing significant damage to even resists let alone neutral bulky mons. Close Combat is an extremely powerful stab that even bulky resists have to be carful around. Rounding this set out, we have Triple Axel which has beautiful synergy with Close Combat and another potentially 120 base power move to spam. Last move upto player preference between Drill run and Poison Jab. It is often paired up with Futureport from either of the slow twins so Drill run is mostly not required. Again the checks to this set are few and far between, Clefable and Fini are decent checks but both are easily 2HKOed by Jab regardless of the set and even Phys Clef in particular has to be cautious even of Triple Axel. Fini has no recovery and can be repeated worn down by Uturns. Buzzwole and Toxapex are great checks unless Futureport, pex even easily regening off the rare drill run but most band Mosa's are paired with futureport nowadays. Moltres and Zapdos are decent because they even constantly threaten the 30 % abilities but Zapdos is threatened by Triple Axel. Bulky Volc and Aegislash are also decent. Some of the counters to previous sets like Marowak A, Slowking G and Mag can't even start to think about checking this set. With the right team support it can overcome all of the above counters. Paring it with Futureport already makes it very difficult to check but other partners like Heal Bell user, offensive mons to take advantage of the birds, good hazard remover, Knock Off users etc. can go a long way. One thing to note here is that the CB set gets the beast boost in speed so the revenge killing options of this are even more dire. This set is much better for the long game than the first one. It can wear down it's checks much more effectively and has more staying power due to no recoil on CB unlike LO. These kind of sets have historically been more successful than the first. The fact that just setting up with a special set and going for the sweep rather than wearing down checks with Banded hits especially at it's speed tier and is the better option, perhaps is the best indicator of simply how overwhelming it is for the tier.

3) Protective Pad/Heavy Duty Boots-
This set like the is very similar to the band set, running the same moves but trading in a bit of power for even more staying power. It now depends on it's partners even more. The purpose of both the sets is similar, which is to keep Uturning around and attacking freely. I would say that Protective Pads are better because all the contact related items/abilities that mention in the first point are very common and you don't have any way to remove abilities. Hazards on the other hand can be defogged and mosa is neutral to rocks in the first place so you are not immediately threatened by a few round of rocks. Also almost any hit will kill mosa regardless so shutting down all contact related damage with Pads means that the only damage which you will need to take is rocks so it is not as bad as it is for some other mons. This set in particular shines on a volt turn setting. Futureport is still amazing with it and it completely punishes teams that require to be worn down with RH and all those other abilities. It has a much larger pool of checks than the band variant, adding some mons that couldn't tank banded hits but can take non banded ones but with a good team structure, it can beat all of it's counters which is even more true than band because now you can't whittle it down nor can you pivot around a choice locked mon. This set is on similar level of effectiveness as the banded set. I just put it at 3 because Protective Pads is not the most common item people want to run. It depends on the matchup whether band or Pads would have been better.

Now those are the most common sets mosa runs. There are other options like Throat Chop, Rapid Spin, Taunt etc. but those are very niche are mostly used on very particular builds.
It is true that that it is frail but at it's speed tier it doesn't have to take a hit. There are a lot of momentum moves in the tier which makes brining it in very easy. You would never send it into a Scarfed mon or a priority mon. By the time the revenge killer comes in, it would have already gotten a kill unless you pivoted around like a mad man. Still it being frail is it's biggest flaw. When it get's things going, priority is the most common thing that foils it. Still one thing to note is that it always survives a Sucker punch from banded Adamant Urshifu and the odds of surviving a banded adamant glide are in it's favor solely because of it's average HP so you need to be careful unless the glide roll is the only thing preventing you from getting swept. I didn't mention Beast Boost a lot but it can give it Attack, Spatk or Speed raise which further limits it's counterplay.

IMO it is undoubtedly broken. QD set is independently banworthy. Even the other two sets are not a walk in the park either. In fact if you have a slow paced balance, HBDs will give you more trouble than anything. If we talk about the collective counters, Clefable, Aegislash, Moltres and Volc are the only consist ones which can check all sets. But Clef can get Poison Jabbed and Aegis can get Drill runned. The latter doesn't have reliable recovery either. Moltres has to be safe against Shock Wave and Protective Pads Mosa can constantly get Uturn against Moltres to a threatening teammate. Volc admittedly checks every single set and can even get flame body on banded sets and has reliable recovery in roost but that is just one mon and I didn't see too many of these since DLC 2. That constitutes all the counterplay to mosa in the tier. 3 out of these 4 are flimsy at best checks and the last one is very uncommon. Feel free to correct me but I am pretty sure those are 4 best mons to check any set of mosa. I don't include Fini as it can easily get chipped down and pexs get's Future Sighted. Not to mention both get Shock Waved.

Keeping with the above points I believe that mosa is too much for the tier and it has a huge strain on both teambuilding and in battle. It has a handful of checks which it can very realistically get past. Clefable is one of the best checks and it is threatened heavily by a common move on Banded variants. This is a testament to it being too much for the tier. With multiple effective sets, minimal counterplay, incredible speed tier and mixed attacking stats, I believe Mosa is too much for the tier and am voting BAN on it.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello! I made requirements and would like to share my thoughts with everyone.

When I originally voted to ban Pheromosa back in SM OU, my reasoning was that Z-moves had pushed it over the edge. It had reliable access to Fighting STAB for the special set without risking the Focus Blast miss, it could bop any of its counters with a well-timed Z move (Like Z-Hyper Beam for Toxapex), and it could run many sets because of it. So, when Pheromosa was brought back down to OU, I figured it might actually be balanced, especially with Pokemon like Aegislash remaining in the tier.

However, I think it's pretty clear that Pheromosa is broken. The removal of Z-Moves has not stopped Pheromosa from being overwhelming, the addition of FuturePort support, and some additions to its movepool (Triple Axel, Drill Run, Throat Chop & Shock Wave) have made it too strong for CG OU. A bunch of people have already mentioned how hard it is to prepare for both Choice Band Pheromosa & Quiver Dance Pheromosa, but I want to briefly mention the Pheromosa set I've been using: Focus Sash Pheromosa. I made requirements using a Sash Spam team, and Pheromosa was easily one of the best abusers of Focus Sash. A lot of the counterplay to Pheromosa relies on revenge killing it with something with enough HP to live a hit, being faster, or priority, and all of these things lose to a good Focus Sash Pheromosa (especially since I used the physical one, and could just kill weakened things with Rapid Spin for a free +1/+1). The reason I bring this up, is because Focus Sash Pheromosa can win against the very few things that can win against QD & CB Pheromosa. Part of what makes Pheromosa so good is even if you know which spectrum it hits from, you don't know its moves until Pheromosa reveals them. With the physical set, I usually pushed people into bringing Clefable instead of Toxapex in fear of Drill Run, which was great because I always used Poison Jab, and could easily bop Clefable trying to Teleport/Moonblast after tanking the initial Close Combat. I've also seen people using Hyper Beam on the special Pheromosa set again to bait Toxapex just like in previous generations. The kind of pressure Pheromosa puts on the teambuilder is insane, and it's pretty hard to counter/check it, because there are not enough overlapping answers for both the special & physical sets that exist.

Despite how much fun I've personally have had with Pheromosa, the right thing to do here would be to vote to Ban it. It doesn't have sufficient counterplay, and it's too strong for a tier that lost a lot of its power (mega & Z-moves gone, Dynamax banned).

Moving forward, I think Magearna & Spectrier will probably be suspected next. But for now, cheers on removing Pheromosa!
 
Hi, I just got the reqs for my first suspect test and I would like to explain my opinion about pheromosa.

As a lot of people said, pheromosa appears to be one if not the most versatile pokemons of the metagame. His incredible offensive stats in both attack and special attack make him very difficult to wall especially considering his great movepool. His speed stat makes him very difficult to outspeed and even with choice scarf pokemons, pheromosa is faster after a +1 boost in speed.

His defensive stats are very weak and force a very safe way to bring him on the field. But with slow u-turn supports and the rise of teleport, it’s not that difficult for him to enter the field.

Stacking hazards can be a counter play but pheromosa can use the boots.
Having static/flame body/rocky helmets users can be a counterplay to avoid pheromosa to just click u-turn for free and gain momentum. But he can use protective pads.
Using fairy pokemons can be a counter play but this method lacks longevity, because pheromosa can have poison jab or even overwhelm them with the choice band set https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-529837 (Finchinator vs SOULWIND)

On the paper pheromosa has some counters and checks but his versatility makes him very difficult to control in the game and in the teambuilder. Most offensive teams suffer from his presence in the metagame. That’s why I will vote BAN.
Thanks for reading.
 
Proof (Wrong Place :/)

EFCD17F1-6447-4C5F-84D9-B4E038E41CB6.png


48 games with a gxe above 80.4

Since some paragraphs about Pheromosa seem to be required, I'll explain why I'll vote ban.

• With offensive stats of 137 attack and special attack, along with 151 speed, Pheromosa has lots of options in how it attacks and the viability of those sets due to its top-tier speed.

• Phermosa has a solid enough STAB combination Bug/Fighting with moves such as u-turn, close combat, bug buzz, and focus *miss*. It also gets a lot of good coverage options in both attacking stats, making it a caple breaker and sweeper. The coverage makes up for some aspects that Phermosa's STAB move(s) wouldn't be able to break.

Potential coverage and examples of targets.

Ice: Triple Axel, Ice Beam (Grounds like Lando T and Hippowdon, Flying types like Torn T and Zapdos, Dragons like Dragonite and Garchomp)
Electric: Shock Wave (Bulky waters like Toxapex, Flying types like Moltres and Torn T)
Ground: Drill Run (Poisons like Toxapex, Aegislash)
Poison: Poison Jab (Fairys like Clefable)
Dark: Throat Chop (Ghost like Aegislash)

• With quiver dance, items, and beast boost as Phermosa's ability, it's unpredictable if and where it'll boost its stats, making it extremely unpredictable in the endgame.

• When trying to build against Phermosa and it's large amount of viable sets, it's impossible to account for every Pheromosa in one pokemon defensively. Pheromosa is also the fastest unboosted pokemon in the meta currently (outside of Regieleki, who is gimmicky at best). This makes any offensive revenge kill hard to do without good priority or scarfs faster than Pheromosa.

• Phermosa can get a potential sweep at any point in the game due to beast boost, making its unpredictability even more chaotic to play against. It can break early game with many sets very effectively, revenge kill pretty much anything it wants, and can set-up with a potential quiver dance. All of this happens with a potential snowball effect at any point in the game.

• Worth noting that with FuturePort support, many sets are completely impossible to switch into for many teams.
 
Last edited:

DerpySuX

TABLES FLIPPED NOW WE GOT ALL THE COCONUTS BITCH
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Despite my undying love for the roach, she is too much for OU to handle.

The pure offensive pressure she exerts by just existing is already scary, you don’t know if she’s physical or special until she actually hits you, and if you guess wrong you’re gonna be in a ditch that you’re hard pressed to get out of. The Quiver Dance set compounds this even further. With just one turn of set up, Pheromosa becomes the fastest, and most powerful mon on both sides of the spectrum, and this is compounded even further by Beast Boost. A modest Pheromosa will become even more powerful with each kill, where a timid/jolly Pheromosa will become faster, with this in mind, one can sacrifice some power or speed for the bulk required to take any one priority attack, as you’ll gain the stats back and then some upon killing the thing that tried to priority pick you anyway.

My apologies if I’m a bit hard to understand, I’m not the best at getting my thoughts out there, but tl;dr, Pheromosa is easily the biggest offensive threat in OU, and makes a case for itself even in the greater context of al of SS. As such, she deserves to be banned. As much as I love her :c
 
While I feel that any one Pheromosa set has sufficient counterplay on its own, the fact remains that it is still an extremely versatile Pokemon even with the loss of Z-moves in the generational shift. Its movepool is just diverse enough to ultimately have the tools to threaten any opposing defensive core, and options for improving specific matchups remain aplenty. It can slot virtually any item that would be useful to an offensive Pokemon - any Choice item, Life Orb, Expert Belt, Focus Sash, HDB, or even protective pads, which has been seen on a ton of offensive threats lately in response to Garchomp, Zapdos and Moltres (and Ferrothorn as always). Its offensive pivot sets with U-Turn put a ton of pressure to switch in a reliable defensive pivot on the opposing team, but that form of counterplay call fizzle out quickly if the Pheromosa turns out to be a Quiver Dance set. And while there are decent answers to the QD sets like Toxapex, the opponent will find themselves on the back foot if Pheromosa U-turns into one of its many fantastic offensive teammates like Nidoking. Some of the more recent Ubers have found themselves banned from a single set (with possibly a small variation or two) like Naganadel. For Pheromosa, I think it's much more of an issue that it's nearly impossible to cover all of its sets with a single team. Pheromosa offers so much to nearly every offensive team, I can't imagine running a HO team without it in the current metagame.
 
reqs proof.PNG


Here's my proof of qualification for this suspect requirement. Like Genesect and Cinderace in DLC 1, I believe that Pheromosa is too customizable, fast, and powerful to exist healthily in the current environment. Between the physical and special set, you're often hard-pressed to find a switch on your team that might not result in your mon getting one-shot. Tapu Fini has been the closest thing I've found to a clean answer that's not too narrow, and even then you can fall to the special set. Coupled with the knowledge that the mon could simply be turning out and dealing big damage with its unreal attack, it cements its place a notch above what any other attacking mon in the tier can offer.

I'll be brief since I haven't got much to say that hasn't been said. It's got insane stats, insane coverage, built-in sweeping potential, low commitment options, and even a bit of utility with Rapid Spin. The only mon that even comes close is Cinderace and it's both narrower and less powerful in multiple respects. I believe that the tier will be healthier without Pheromosa. Shout-out to the player on ladder who named theirs 'Sexy Cockroach', my friends and I have been laughing about that for weeks. I hope the committee will also consider suspecting Magearna and Spectrier in the future.

I will cast my vote to ban Pheromosa from SS OU.
 
Last edited:

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Big shoutout to IPF for the awesome screens team to get reqs, granted I would cry a little inside everytime I saw Tio Chicos semi-stall with Whirlwind Hippo that would just stop everything from setting up :pikuh:.

Everything said about banning Mosa has been said and put together more eloquently than I would ever so I’ll just keep it short. Mosa is individually broken it puts too much constraint on builder and banning would be a step in the right direction to the clean up the tier needs to balance itself out.
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
Hey all, I thought while I work on getting my reqs, that I would give you all my thoughts on Pheromosa, and why I think it has become banworthy.

:ss/pheromosa:

Pheromosa is an odd offensive Pokemon, with paper thin defenses, but obscene wallbreaking power and the fastest speed tier among the many viable options we have available. It took a lot of time for me to come to the point where I felt Pheromosa was banworthy, because unlike certain other Pokemon, checking its physical and mixed variants is not a very difficult thing to do naturally, as the wealth of potential Pheromosa checks in the tier are naturally viable and compress a lot of defensive utility. Such options range from Clefable, Moltres, Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Landorus-T, and some interesting options such as Galarian Slowking; all of these Pokemon provide quite a bit to the teams that they're placed on, and range in what kinds of roles they can compress while threatening and punishing Pheromosa's U-turns to escape sour matchups or its Close Combats with things such as Rocky Helmet chip damage, a pivotal momentum loss, or a debilitating status. It also has a lot of room to be revenge killed via the many priority options in the tier due to its abysmal defenses from things like Cinderace, the Urshifus, and Rillaboom. Additionally, I also felt as if it gave a lot of viable team archetypes a good way to level speed tiers without having to sacrifice any firepower or force a Choice item onto a Pokemon, giving team archetypes more flexibility in their compositions while providing them easy momentum and synergy. In a way, I felt it was healthy for the tier, not only since its physical sets have checks and ways to be handled naturally, because it also allowed for teams to afford more interesting options due to what offensive bases it can cover.

I find its HDB set to be decently healthy and the least problematic, though I agree that its Choice Band set is definitely the better and the more banworthy set between the two, as especially in tandem with Future Sight, it is considerably difficult to swap into its Close Combat. In combination with its speed tier, this set brings a lot of power and speed to teams in need, and is extremely explosive. Although, despite its strength, I do not find its Choice Band set overtly broken for the same reasons mentioned earlier. What checks its HDB/Pads set also checks its CB set, situationally even more as Triple Axel risks even more Rocky Helmet damage/Static/Flame Body procing, and it can be scouted/checked more consistently unlike Urshifu since it does not bypass protection, its STABs are generally easier to switch into, and it is easier to punish due to its abysmal bulk. It is close to being banworthy, but I do not feel that it alone is.

Despite these attributes having made me feel rather soundly about Pheromosa's place in the tier regardless of its top tier status, one set has recently come to prevalence that outweighs what benefits it brings and instead brings saddening polarity. This set is the Quiver Dance set. QD Pheromosa completely mitigates the positive things that I feel Pheromosa provides for the tier through violently seizing games via forced switches, and leaving the fate of games down to Focus Blast accuracy. We have seen the battle between Finch and SOULWIND as a popular example, and experienced first hand just how easy it is for it to end games on the spot once it gets a single boost up and a single KO. Sadly, this set transforms Pheromosa's wealth of checks (barring some Clefable variants, Aegislash, and Glowking) to its other sets into victims, and makes it extremely difficult to safely play around without risking an autoloss. When the threat of Quiver Dance Pheromosa is apparent, it becomes risky to switch into your physical Pheromosa check, as doing so entails the risk of giving it a Quiver Dance opportunity. In tandem with how important it is to be able to handle its other variants, playing around it requires risky plays that could lead to losing an important playing piece just to make sure Pheromosa can't set up its Quiver Dance, in a way that makes checking it consistently extremely difficult. Even if it doesn't find an opportunity or the need to Quiver Dance, it is still a fearsome wallbreaker that can snowball anyway thanks to Beast Boost and blow through bulkier teams with relative ease with the combination of Shock Wave/Ice Beam/Focus Blast, and making the need to find a good setup opportunity irrelevant in certain matchups.

Overall, I am on team ban, but primarily because of the polarity and risk that its Quiver Dance set brings into the tier. It brings an unhealthy degree of risk that, even if it doesn't show up, makes it difficult to play consistently and effectively around its other sets, in a way that I simply do not find healthy in play. In my eyes, the whole package of Pheromosa is sadly too much for the tier.
 
Last edited:

FatFighter2

zacian waifu :flushed:
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
Proof of qualification:
Screenshot (173).png


Just wanted to express my (dissenting) opinion on Pheromosa. On paper, it is a broken mon, and only really has one perfect counterin max def Volcarona (which is extremely rare), since Clef is mauled by banded poison jab, Moltres loses to quiver versions, and Aegislash is worn down. Future port further exasperates this problem, and turns the tables on checks such as Clef and Pex.

However, in my experience, it isn't as dominating as it appears on paper. You can usually easily figure out its set by just looking at it (if its a lead or if Slowbro is also on the team, its band/HDB/Protective pads, if its not a lead on offense teams its usually quiver). Once you figure out its set, its still certainly extremely good, but not overbearing. If its band/HDB/Protective pads, there are an adequate number of checks to it, such as Moltres, Clef, and Pex to name a few. Because of the number of checks to the physical variant, Pheromosa suffers from the 4MSS, wanting to fit both poison jab and drill run to beat either Fairies or Pex/Aegislash. Future port with banded Pheromosa is certainly strong, but I wouldn't regard it as the root cause of this issue, as Urshifu can also exploit future port just as well.

The main concern for most of the other posts in this thread is how the quiver dance set gives it too much of a degree of surprise. However, as I stated above, it it usually relatively easy to scout its set just from looking at the team. In addition, in practice, I've found it rare for the quiver set to ever sweep teams. Its usually just too frail (Banded grassy glide from Rilla OHKOs it 37.5% of the time) or not strong enough, such as not being able to OHKO Moltres at +1, or not being able to OHKO Clef at +2, to ever KO more than one or two mons, and is somewhat of a hit or miss mon. I feel that with smart play, the quiver dance variant usually isn't much of a problem.

However, I do agree that Pheromosa definitely places quite a strain on teambuilding, with teams being forced to run certain mons such as Clef that can do well against it or strong priority such as banded Rillaboom to keep it in check. Pheromosa, along with Spectrier, definitely stand out to me as the two mons that place the most strain on teambuilding. In addition, Pheromosa's checks have to stay healthy to deal with it, thus allowing for teammates to run bait sets to lure in its checks, or just wearing down its checks through smart play to allow it to go ham.

To wrap this up, while I do believe Pheromosa is definitely extremely strong, I'm still conflicted on the question of whether Pheromosa is unhealthy enough for the metagame to vote to ban it. While, with proper play and teambuilding, Pheromosa might not be exceedingly overbearing, the amount of strain it places in the teambuilder could be regarded as enough justification for banning it.

Because of all of this, I'm slightly leaning towards no ban
 

msnt

\!/
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I just finished the reqs.
As an smou player not really playing the tier at the moment, I was wondering why this thing was still in the tier. So I decided to make the reqs to see by myself, Pheromosa is definitely broken no doubt.
If the band/hdb/scarf set is really really good but still manageable, the QD set is ridiculously broken as some of the people before me said the only "consistent" check is Clefable and everybody know how easy it is to weaken Clef.
I feel like the hdb set was okay for the tier, but the QD/Band/Scarf variants are really broken and too strong for the tier atm, If Pheromosa is banned (I hope that it will be case) the tier will be better for sure and imo very enjoyable.
Pheromosa was really fun to play on offensive teams to be honest but sadly it has too much sets and power to stay in OU and be healthy.
 

LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
See, I'm going to be completely honest, i don't see why Pheromosa was picked before Magearna. I finished reqs and got to like 1755 while doing it, and i honestly don't feel Phero is anywhere near as broken as gear. It's buffs its got in this gen completely push it over the edge and way beyond unbalanced to me. This thing requires a Heatran minimum, and while heatran is a good pokemon and all, it can still lose if its not like magma taunt, and even then you can lose with a little bad luck. Also, screens with magearna is absolutely silly. It's absolutely easy to send it in late game or even mid game and simply win on the spot. Phero is silly but atleast it has managable ways of revenge killing it once it gets going with priority. Magearna doesn't have that atall, and i think the dumbest part about it is how the buffs it got completely removed most ways of handling it. Stored power removed Toxapex, amoongus, and sortof moltres as soft checks. Draining kiss makes breaking it almost impossible without a Heatran.

Even beyond this one set, the specs set is incredibly strong and while not as good as the set above, it's still hard to switch into and if you predict wrong it actually just claims a Pokemon each time. While less common i will say that shift gear physical magearna is also atleast worth mentioning as a set, as it turns heatran into a free kill and perhaps the game on the spot if screens are up.

I'm not personally sure whether i feel pheromosa is broken or not, I haven't played for too long in this meta, but i can honestly say for certain that magearna was worse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top