Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[zioziotrip]

brief post on the meta since I got some insight from umpl building+lt, mostly just a rant tbh


genesect is like 100% the best mon and I think it's by a fair margin. I was split on it or urshifu for a little bit but I think for sure the amount of shit genesect can cover at once is absolutely insane. I did some calcing and it turns out you just like don't really need speed or either attacking stat on occa to still hit what you want to (fairies/dragons/grounds/grasses) and you can spend a lot of evs/moveslots really teching whatever you want outside of fires while still beating a ton of prevalent stuff. I spammed the hell out of this gene during lt, physdef lets you beat like every sturdy bar zone (I think you could run some spdef? idk I'm not great at eving) which is really nice. You can also run a boatload of spdef if you want for eleki/nagan(?) which is something. I think orb is still pretty good because it does what you want gene to do while being able to cover necro/volcanion if it pleases. I'm not 100% where I sit on genesect in terms of its healthiness for the meta, I think my view is certainly a little skewed because in an lt context w/ no hidden games (lol) it's absolutely absurd but it's not super rough to cover in the builder. All the fires and chansey*/gorsola are pretty good right now if you want a foolproof gene check but I think the primary thing is that most people are yet to actually venture out and spam the bulkier variants of gene so for now aggron/zera etc work. I would have to wait and see how the actual bracket of lt pans out but atm I think it's fine.
*chansey needs charm for screech technically l0l charm sucks I wouldn't recommend, tossing out every physical attacker mu for a rare variant of one mon is cringe I would sooner run flame>stoss

the meta has kind of reverted to a very core-based meta like it was at the beginning where you're gonna see a ton of variants of DragonFairySteel or FireWaterGrass. Mons I think are very good for the cores atm are like would recommend spamming. I think mons like that were intially pretty damn good are getting progressively worse at the meta develops, more is just accounting for them. One-note mons are generally underwhelming in this meta. I want to note some stuff I see getting a fair amount of usage that I think are pretty good.

- Initially this thing just of feel off the map for a lot of dlc but I think atm it's super good. Its choice sets are as solid as ever w me especially liking CB atm because clear body lets you cheese arcanine and ghost/dragon is just a randomly effective typing for the tier, although take note this shit is still pretty weak ddarts is rarely gonna help you pop haban mons but it's nice for random 0 bulk sawk. I think the wp variants of pult that utilize wisp are really damn good atm, you can make it beat a myriad of physical attackers or gene (outside of scarf) it's swanky. I think any disable variant is pretty ass no one really runs choice anymore and what does run choice already owns you or there's no need for disable in the mu. Just run another stall check Curse does so little outside of stall, Wisp Disable variants are usually also just worse than WP.
- Stall has had a really strange journey throughout SS but as the tier is beginning to settle somewhat I think it's clear that Chansey/Corsola-G/Clef are pretty damn good at exploiting attackers. Chansey with its insane HP is just gonna murder and physical attacker that lacks an option to set up on it also its inherently walling anything special just make sure to watch out for trick+rest. Corsola is gonna likely instantly lose to any anti-stall mesaure but ghost is just a cool defensive typing and its stall that always beats opposing stall which makes building a bit less annoying than conventional stall teams. Clef is great atm. Unaware Counter is just such a good combo for a ton of physical attackers in the tier, Encore+Cm also can help in a ton of MUs. Clef is a pretty good MU fish asw because a lot of people just run Trick/Setup as their stall check and call it a day, albeit not to say it lacks merit outside of MU fishing. Stall is cool rn, requires a bit of proper play and theorymoning to actually utilize stall properly but I think it's solid.
- this shit beats like any physical attacker that slower than it outside of sturdies and has some super nice mus like spectrier/stall that alleviate teambuilding strain a ton. Epic pokemon
- Yeah this mon is super annoying. Pretty solid bulk and speed for a Sleep SubSeed mon. If you don't already know, Venu has started to run Sub+Seed+Sleep Powder then one of Protect or Sludge Bomb. I think people who want to ban Venu or sleep are being ridiculous, it's not anybody's fault except for yours that your entire team is slower than 80 spe, grass poison is not a hard type to own. Venu also has solid offensive sets in the form of custap/specs so I think it's here to stay.

that's all I really wanted to say, gonna drop some teams rq in-case anyone wants to mess around with mons I mentioned in the post
loses to spectrier and has an ass rachi mu but really good at farming ladder otherwise
loses to like any dragon but it's a lot of fun :D
gets tossed by cb gdarm but otherwise gets saucy MUs, used this a ton for LT
loses to some shit that idr but it's good

cool meta rn, might transfer the opinions of this post to vr at some point but rn is for sleep. peace all

 

[Murm]

I feel like making a post, there are a few mons I want to talk about.



This Pokemonn is 100% the best mon in the tier. Trashuny's post before listed a bunch of great sets, go there if you want some good sets s/os to Trashuny. Anyway I feel that this mon is unhealthy for the meta. I'm repeating what Trashuny has said but it forces a lot of fires into the meta, and there are very few non-fires that win reliably. I just think this is too restricting, and it is only going to get better. Just read Trashuny's post if you want to read more about this. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-metagame-discussion.3656364/post-8844145



In my opinion this Pokemon is the second best in the tier. Urshifu is also super good, don't get me wrong, but over the last week or so Zygarde has gotten so much better. The two main sets that I want to talk about that have gained popularity is Rocky Helmet and Fast Toxic. They both beat a lot of the mons that normally check Zygarde, like Urshifu and Goodra. This thing is S tier in my opinion. Yes, certain fairies, ices, and dragons can do well, and Genesect is a very reliable check, but like Genesect, this thing is going to get better and better as the meta develops. I am curious how dominant this thing would be if Genesect got banned.



This thing is still good. I just don't think it's as good as the two Pokemon above. Honestly the main reasoning behind this is it's susceptibility to be teched. There are a lot of Pokemon, the main one I can think of being Zygarde, that can easily lure it in and win. Of course, it still has it's great qualities. The fact that it's form is hidden in team preview is super good, and autocrits are super nice, but I just don't feel like it is on the level of Genesect and Zygarde.



If anyone wants to hop on a voice call or something with me one time and just build a bunch of Necrozma sets I'd be down. Specs and Stall are super good, don't get me wrong, but I feel like there are so many more sets that this thing can run. I haven't looked into it all that much, I just wanted to share this. Explore this thing more. Maybe I'll put another post here, talking about all the Necrozma sets I could make.




I have put this thing on like half of the teams I have built recently. Stall and AV are just super good at filling holes, and there are other sets like LO that I haven't even tried but I am sure they also are great at filling holes. For right now, I think this thing is really good, though I can see this thing dropping in the future, especially if Genesect were to be banned.


That's all I got for now. I did a lot of testing this week, both of lower tier Pokemon I wanted to try to make sure I could rank them accurately, and higher tier Pokemon to look into them more. This past week, or few days, or however long it has been have pushed the meta a lot. I'm sure that it is mainly from LT but it is super interesting nonetheless. Anyway thanks for reading, and let me know if you have any questions or anything. Thanks!

 

[Murm]

Wow two posts in a row from me, IDK I want to talk about mons that I think can do more. I'm not talking about the S tiers we all know that they can kinda run whatever they want and work out.

DISCLAIMER: I SUCK AT EXPRESSING MY THOUGHTS IN A GOOD WAY. Hopefully you guys can understand what I am saying and feel free to ask me about anything.



I've been working on sets, though I haven't tested much at all. If you have any interesting sets let me know.

Sets

LO (Necrozma) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 96 SpA / 108 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Prismatic Laser
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Choice Band (Necrozma) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off

Chonky Specs (Necrozma) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 88 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Photon Geyser
- Prismatic Laser
- Earth Power

Physical WP (Necrozma) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 180 HP / 20 Atk / 56 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off

Here are a few that I think have potential. Also scarf might be cool but I didn't finish making that one yet :/. I think physical in particular is super interesting, since it's movepool for it is pretty good and it catches the Special Tanks like Goodra offguard.



I know, it's movepool is super shallow. I still think there is some developments this thing can have. Specifically, Mud Shot is super nice to allow it to beat its counters like Zeraora and sometimes Heatran.

Set

Spectrier @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 28 SpD / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mud Shot
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Disable / Calm Mind / Taunt

Now this set isn't the best but it hopefully gives you an idea of what I have been thinking of. I really like having extra Physical bulk, it catches a lot of people off guard. Mud Shot, and possibly other moves but mainly Mud Shot, has a lot of potential to expand it's presence on team preview.



I mean a lot of people know this by now but WP is very good, and it has some other untapped potential. I don't feel too qualified talking about this thing so I'm going to move on.



Like Spectrier this thing's movepool is a bit shallow but there are some other options that are worth considering. Band, Haban, and AV are the only sets I've really seen, maybe some Scarf, but other items like Yache and Dragon Fang can work well. Specifically, I like Life Orb, though of course it kinda doesn't make sense with it's 200 base HP.

Set

Regidrago @ Life Orb
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 200 Atk / 152 Def / 56 SpA / 84 SpD / 16 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Fang

Idk maybe some other stuff could be good I was looking at mons and this thing has a giant movepool.



I think some other items besides Custap could be good. It has some nice moves like Substitute, Sucker Punch, and Taunt that could be nice.

That's all, just wanted to make another post. It was more of an impulse decision to be honest, and some of the information here might be incorrect, so let me know if you see anything like that. I just want to see more exploration. I'll keep looking into this stuff. Thanks for reading.

 

[Adam3560]

Wow two posts in a row from me, IDK I want to talk about mons that I think can do more. I'm not talking about the S tiers we all know that they can kinda run whatever they want and work out.

DISCLAIMER: I SUCK AT EXPRESSING MY THOUGHTS IN A GOOD WAY. Hopefully you guys can understand what I am saying and feel free to ask me about anything.



I've been working on sets, though I haven't tested much at all. If you have any interesting sets let me know.

Sets

LO (Necrozma) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 96 SpA / 108 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Prismatic Laser
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Choice Band (Necrozma) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off

Chonky Specs (Necrozma) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 88 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Photon Geyser
- Prismatic Laser
- Earth Power

Physical WP (Necrozma) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 180 HP / 20 Atk / 56 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off

Here are a few that I think have potential. Also scarf might be cool but I didn't finish making that one yet :/. I think physical in particular is super interesting, since it's movepool for it is pretty good and it catches the Special Tanks like Goodra offguard.



I know, it's movepool is super shallow. I still think there is some developments this thing can have. Specifically, Mud Shot is super nice to allow it to beat its counters like Zeraora and sometimes Heatran.

Set

Spectrier @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 28 SpD / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mud Shot
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Disable / Calm Mind / Taunt

Now this set isn't the best but it hopefully gives you an idea of what I have been thinking of. I really like having extra Physical bulk, it catches a lot of people off guard. Mud Shot, and possibly other moves but mainly Mud Shot, has a lot of potential to expand it's presence on team preview.



I mean a lot of people know this by now but WP is very good, and it has some other untapped potential. I don't feel too qualified talking about this thing so I'm going to move on.



Like Spectrier this thing's movepool is a bit shallow but there are some other options that are worth considering. Band, Haban, and AV are the only sets I've really seen, maybe some Scarf, but other items like Yache and Dragon Fang can work well. Specifically, I like Life Orb, though of course it kinda doesn't make sense with it's 200 base HP.

Set

Regidrago @ Life Orb
Ability: Dragon's Maw
EVs: 200 Atk / 152 Def / 56 SpA / 84 SpD / 16 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fire Fang

Idk maybe some other stuff could be good I was looking at mons and this thing has a giant movepool.



I think some other items besides Custap could be good. It has some nice moves like Substitute, Sucker Punch, and Taunt that could be nice.

That's all, just wanted to make another post. It was more of an impulse decision to be honest, and some of the information here might be incorrect, so let me know if you see anything like that. I just want to see more exploration. I'll keep looking into this stuff. Thanks for reading.

For necrozma I'd like hit up UrBoiXander cause that guy has so many sets it's crazy. Just from being on the ladder I've seen stuff like custap goodra and weakness policy moltres-galar, which I could probably guess the EVs for and make a set with(I won't say who used what obviously). Some other underexplored pokemon I'd just like to add to this list are:


I love rhyperior and I think you can guess why. Edgequake stab+bug/fire/steel/ice/dragon/fighting physical coverage+insane bulk with solid rock+metal burst mean that this pokemon has 3 viable sets on the viability rankings and probably more off of it. With some creativity I could imagine this thing beating like primarina or rillaboom it is that diverse.


I remember when zarude got released Krytocon wrote a 1v1 analysis on like 3 different zarude sets(I think wp band and av?). That analysis has since been taken down :( but what with this thing getting nasty plot, taunt, and honestly solid bulk, I think that some people here could really come together and make some cool zarude sets.

Well that's my 50 cents, I really hope that someone good reads this and responds to it with ideas, I'm running out of inspiration for teambuilding and that makes building boring.

 

[Waylaid]

some thoughts on the ss meta from a tournament player turned ladder rat:​

I want to use this post primarily to address Trashuny's genesect post, because it occurred to me that council has not put ANY of our discussion about genesect in the discord's council minutes channel, and from an outsider perspective it may very well seem that we're ignoring potential problems. That is not the case, and genesect has been the main topic of discussion for over 2 weeks at this point. These are my personal (and hopefully succinct) thoughts, which are not necessarily representative of the joint opinion of council.

I think genesect is extremely versatile, to the point of possible unhealthiness, on the 1v1 ladder. as Trashuny outlined, almost every team without a fire type can be beaten by some variation of genesect, and even some fire types like volcanion and volcarona can lose to it. This makes it an incredibly attractive option to run during ladder tour, as players can pick and choose their specific gene set by watching the public battles of other LT competitors. I've heard LT qualifiers state that genesect is almost a necessity to ladder effectively and seen countless team comps of Gene, Gene Check, Third mon.

I don't think genesect is able to abuse its versatility in tournament play quite like it can on ladder. Max defense max hp, toxic, av, and even lum berry genesect are ladder sets mentioned in trashuny's post that might have a harder time working in formal tournaments, where people are much less likely to reuse teams that can be taken advantage of by usually sub-optimal gene sets. Most of these seem very counterteam-y, which is much less reliable in tournament games. Unless a player always uses teams that lose to toxic genesect (which seems exceedingly unlikely), it's a bit of a toss-up to bring a genesect set like that with potential to 3-0 but a high opportunity cost. I think the unreliability of using sets with high opportunity cost would mean that most high-level tournaments would only see a few top genesect sets, and that it's not truly as versatile as you describe.

Non-LT ladder also doesn't reward genesect quite like LT does. Most top ladder players private their games, so there's no potential to cteam them unless you match with them yourself. Also, there's no need for as high of a volume of games as is seen in LT, where people will join over 5 games at the same time as the deadline approaches. This means that there's no guarantee that a. you'll match with these players who could possibly be exploited by genesect or b. they'll reuse the same team, as the lack of time pressure gives them a greater opportunity to switch up their teams every few games, depending on what's working on the ladder.

My overall opinion of genesect is somewhat complicated. I don't think it should be banned at this time, but I'm interested to see how it may fare in tournaments that aren't the LT qualifying cycle. Seeing as their weren't many vocal complaints during PL, I take it that genesect was either less of a problem then or wasn't able to be articulated as such. As a rule I think suspects are generally healthy for the tier, but I have a few qualms about suspecting gene right after the 4th LT cycle ends: I think gene's inflated presence/versatility on ladder means that a ladder suspect might make the problem appear greater than it is, but I'm not overally concerned about that particular possibility. I'm rather concerned that we're not giving it enough time. All of the verbalized genesect complaints I've heard have risen post-LT cycle 1. I've seen no non-standard genesect sets in majors that give me the impression that it is a tournament problem as well as a ladder problem, but I'll keep my eyes open.

Tl;dr:
I think this mon is more of a ladder (LT ladder specifically) problem and I don't think it has been given enough time to suspect right now. If majors continues to go smoothly, I'd prefer to revisit this after a few rounds of LT playoffs. Beyond that, if a suspect were to be approved right now, I'd likely vote do not ban.

Please respond in this thread, in room, or in the metagame discussion channel on discord if you'd like to discuss this further, as my opinion is far from final and I'd love to see more discussion on this. Mubs out.

 

[Boat]

Since it's clear that this thread will soon be taken over by Genesect posts, I'm gonna take this opportunity to remind you what argument you need to make if you're on the pro-ban side. I see a lot of bad arguments so I feel the need to quote the Tiering Framework at you. You need to demonstrate that Genesect is either broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.

Broken - The element is too good relative to the rest of the metagame, so much so that more skillful play is less relevant. The most important factor here is you would need to demonstrate that standard teams without Genesect are at a significant disadvantage against teams without Genesect.

Uncompetitive - The element removes player agency in a way that renders skillful play less relevant. This usually has to do with RNG issues, but it can also relate to issues with matchup. This one is pretty much not relevant for Genesect.

Unhealthy - This one is a lot harder to define, and I see a lot of people default to this when they can't figure out how to justify it as broken or competitive. It basically means that an element is neither broken nor uncompetitive, but still makes skillful play less relevant.

I remind you that you should use the framework to determine if something should be banned, not use the framework to figure out how to argue your pre-existing belief that Genesect should be banned.

Unhealthy can mean a lot of things, but the common factor they all share is that, like the previous two factors, an element should only be banned as unhealthy if there is confidence that the removal of that element will make the better player win more often over the worse player. The biggest example in 1v1 in my opinion is Sableye.

In my opinion the only reasonable argument for banning Genesect is trying to argue that it's broken. The other two just don't apply at all, and proving that Genesect teams dominate non-Genesect teams should be the priority for anyone trying to see it banned. My personal take is that Genesect is fine, there are a good amount of counters, and they're viable on their own merits, so it's not hard to fit a Genesect beater at all.

 

[DEG]

I laddered LT plus played some rounds in majors and been invested in the clicking side of SS plus I watched friends build for LT/UMPL/Majors so I have ideas on Genesect.

In that time, I have noticed that Genesect is broken inside the battle and in the teambuilding process. Starting from the ladder tournament, the easiest way for me to counter team someone was to utilize Genesect by countering their team's Genesect counter. It was pretty easy to create a Genesect unset due to its great stats, typing and its various coverage moves. While doing this I clearly gained advantage on the team preview side and took the game out of the players hand. Now, you're going to say that in the end that's 1v1 and 3-0s are a thing. I can simply say that, when you have a 3-0 it is due to a faulty teambuilding, definitely out of someone's control sometimes, like if a team gets 3-0ed by Arcanine then its the builder fault for not inserting an Arcanine check in their teams. But when you toy with various Genesect unsets such as the one's mentioned in Trashuny's post there's zero to little your opponent can do, they just think and vain and they never had the game in hands anyways. Genesect can run many sets with little to no drawbacks which makes it customizable and hard to prepare on the team preview/ladder side.

I don't think genesect is able to abuse its versatility in tournament play quite like it can on ladder. Max defense max hp, toxic, av, and even lum berry genesect are ladder sets mentioned in trashuny's post that might have a harder time working in formal tournaments, where people are much less likely to reuse teams that can be taken advantage of by usually sub-optimal gene sets. Most of these seem very counterteam-y, which is much less reliable in tournament games. Unless a player always uses teams that lose to toxic genesect (which seems exceedingly unlikely), it's a bit of a toss-up to bring a genesect set like that with potential to 3-0 but a high opportunity cost. I think the unreliability of using sets with high opportunity cost would mean that most high-level tournaments would only see a few top genesect sets, and that it's not truly as versatile as you describe.

Au Contraire mon ami, in the tournament side of 1v1 that's where the quirky sets shine. On ladder I cannot run the same quirky genesect set and expect my opponent to not adapt/change teams because that's how it was. When the opponent lost a game to a 3-0 they changed their teams. It's on the ladder where Genesect is less effective. In my 4 years experience in tournament, the counterteamy techs works more than the compendium sets since your goal is to hide your sets/picks as much as you can. The tournaments history is a wittness to that, and this is a trend in all gens. Additionally, as I said Genesect various sets have little to zero opportunity cost due to its high coverage+not being it not being limited to an item to be effective (see, AV, Occa, Specs, Scarf...), and its bug/steel typing which is really the icing on the cake in today's meta.

On the teambuilding side, Genesect limits teambuidling to an extent.

They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.

There's little reason to not use Genesect (reason: to not be a bland, and a repetitive builder!!!). Genesect is either the perfect glue to a team or the best Pokemon to start a team with. Its high versatility as mentioned cannot be accounted perfectly while teambuilding against Genesect, to the point where you're forced to run a Fire-type Pokemon (and other limited counters) which goes against the way a metagame should evolve. You shouldn't be forced to run a specific type to be able to cover every Genesect set, there's some other sure counters such as Jirachi but they are still limited. The difference between accounting for high ranked Pokemon and Genesect is simple. If we take for exemple Urshifu, it has counters from most of the types, such as Zeraora, Zarude, Zapdos-Galar, Sylveon, Tapu Fini, and more... its sets are discernable at preview and share sometimes the same counter, additionally sets such as Coba berry comes with opportunity loss and this is the definition of "tournament innovation" and how you can surprise your opponent. There's clearly a line being drawn here, between a high ranked Pokemon and Genesect.

As a closing remark, I know I did not include a lot of matchups, replays and stuff but I'll leave that to people that aren't as lazy as me, but I got my point across. I think Genesect should be suspected ASAP before World Cup as it limited your options on the teambuilding side, and in-game.

 

[Boat]

There's little reason to not use Genesect (reason: to not be a bland, and a repetitive builder!!!). Genesect is either the perfect glue to a team or the best Pokemon to start a team with. Its high versatility as mentioned cannot be accounted perfectly while teambuilding against Genesect, to the point where you're forced to run a Fire-type Pokemon (and other limited counters) which goes against the way a metagame should evolve. You shouldn't be forced to run a specific type to be able to cover every Genesect set, there's some other sure counters such as Jirachi but they are still limited. The difference between accounting for high ranked Pokemon and Genesect is simple. If we take for exemple Urshifu, it has counters from most of the types, such as Zeraora, Zarude, Zapdos-Galar, Sylveon, Tapu Fini, and more... its sets are discernable at preview and share sometimes the same counter, additionally sets such as Coba berry comes with opportunity loss and this is the definition of "tournament innovation" and how you can surprise your opponent. There's clearly a line being drawn here, between a high ranked Pokemon and Genesect.

I'm not a fan of using counter's typing as a measurement for if a Pokemon is broken. It implies that a Pokemon with dozens of counters could be bannable as broken, if its counters share a particular quality. You might mention the Magearna ban, as Magearna was banned for a similar argument, but I don't think they are the same. The meta currently has many viable Fire-types, it's not hard at all to fit one onto your team, which wasn't really the case with Magearna (although it was very new at the time, I'm sure some more might have come up). This meant that Magearna overall had very few counters, which was problematic. The fact that all its counters are Fire-types isn't inherently problematic to me. Additionally, the very few non-Fire type counters had to bend over backwards to do it (sorta like non-Fighting-types trying to beat Snorlax), which isn't as true for Genesect in my opinion.

 

[Waylaid]

Thanks for the response DEG! I agree with a lot of your post but I'd like to address the rest, because I feel like we're using similar arguments to different ends.

In that time, I have noticed that Genesect is broken inside the battle and in the teambuilding process. Starting from the ladder tournament, the easiest way for me to counter team someone was to utilize Genesect by countering their team's Genesect counter. It was pretty easy to create a Genesect unset due to its great stats, typing and its various coverage moves. While doing this I clearly gained advantage on the team preview side and took the game out of the players hand.

This is what I was referencing in my original post; genesect absolutely thrives as a cteaming mon when you know the teams your opponent will bring, assuming none of them have a fire type that gene can't tech past. I don't think this is as big of a problem in normal ladder play where most games are hidden, but I completely understand that using genesect puts you at an advantage in LT. The LT meta is kinda always funky like that though; more often than not players will discover a ladder supermon and spam it for 4 weeks before it disappears. While I don't think gene will disappear post-LT, I certainly don't think players will have the potential to use it as effectively on ladder again.

Now, you're going to say that in the end that's 1v1 and 3-0s are a thing. I can simply say that, when you have a 3-0 it is due to a faulty teambuilding, definitely out of someone's control sometimes, like if a team gets 3-0ed by Arcanine then its the builder fault for not inserting an Arcanine check in their teams. But when you toy with various Genesect unsets such as the one's mentioned in Trashuny's post there's zero to little your opponent can do, they just think and vain and they never had the game in hands anyways.

I think this section is at best dramatized. I'm not advocating for a fire type on every team, but there are certainly effective solutions to having a weak genesect matchup outside of floundering helplessly at team preview. Even still, this is an LT-specific problem. Unless someone historically uses exclusively tech-able mons like aggron or eleki as their genesect check on every team, it's fairly likely that the unset tech won't hit.

Genesect can run many sets with little to no drawbacks which makes it customizable and hard to prepare on the team preview/ladder side.

I partially agree with this. Gene beats a lot by virtue of typing, and occa gene generally has similar matchups. What I think is being overlooked is that genesect's unsets generally don't beat more than one or two pokemon that it wouldn't otherwise beat. Toxic genesect gains you the pyukumuku matchup, AV genesect gives you the regieleki matchup, zen headbutt gives you the zap-g matchup, but these sets aren't compounding. You don't gain matchups against genesect's checks that you didn't explicitly tech for, so if your low opportunity cost means you only lose an extra 3-5 matchups, it's not worth teching for it if you don't know exactly what your opponent will bring.

Au Contraire mon ami, in the tournament side of 1v1 that's where the quirky sets shine. On ladder I cannot run the same quirky genesect set and expect my opponent to not adapt/change teams because that's how it was. When the opponent lost a game to a 3-0 they changed their teams. It's on the ladder where Genesect is less effective. In my 4 years experience in tournament, the counterteamy techs works more than the compendium sets since your goal is to hide your sets/picks as much as you can. The tournaments history is a wittness to that, and this is a trend in all gens.

Like I said before, quirky genesect sets generally only beat one or two extra mons. Unless your opponent happened to bring one of those very specific mons as their sole genesect check in the exact game you chose to bring that specific set, the tech is useless. I understand what you're saying in principle, but the fact of the matter is that this doesn't seem to be applicable in tournament play thus far, which is why I think we should wait to see if this is actually a problem.

There's little reason to not use Genesect (reason: to not be a bland, and a repetitive builder!!!). Genesect is either the perfect glue to a team or the best Pokemon to start a team with. Its high versatility as mentioned cannot be accounted perfectly while teambuilding against Genesect, to the point where you're forced to run a Fire-type Pokemon (and other limited counters) which goes against the way a metagame should evolve. You shouldn't be forced to run a specific type to be able to cover every Genesect set, there's some other sure counters such as Jirachi but they are still limited. The difference between accounting for high ranked Pokemon and Genesect is simple. If we take for exemple Urshifu, it has counters from most of the types, such as Zeraora, Zarude, Zapdos-Galar, Sylveon, Tapu Fini, and more... its sets are discernable at preview and share sometimes the same counter, additionally sets such as Coba berry comes with opportunity loss and this is the definition of "tournament innovation" and how you can surprise your opponent. There's clearly a line being drawn here, between a high ranked Pokemon and Genesect.

Most of the last paragraph isn't really applicable and I feel like you're describing what it means to be an S-rank mon in the meta. It's super good so it's always a safe choice, many of its hard counters share a specific type (much like urshifu and fairy types), and using an anti-check set like coba shifu or max defense genesect really only helps you beat one or two mons.

 

[DEG]

I'm not a fan of using counter's typing as a measurement for if a Pokemon is broken. It implies that a Pokemon with dozens of counters could be bannable as broken, if its counters share a particular quality. You might mention the Magearna ban, as Magearna was banned for a similar argument, but I don't think they are the same. The meta currently has many viable Fire-types, it's not hard at all to fit one onto your team, which wasn't really the case with Magearna (although it was very new at the time, I'm sure some more might have come up). This meant that Magearna overall had very few counters, which was problematic. The fact that all its counters are Fire-types isn't inherently problematic to me. Additionally, the very few non-Fire type counters had to bend over backwards to do it (sorta like non-Fighting-types trying to beat Snorlax), which isn't as true for Genesect in my opinion.

Allow me to disagree. Being basically "forced" to run a Fire-type Pokemon means that you have a restriction in the teambuilding which really de-evolves the metagame. We're not a 6v6 metagame where you can re-utilize the same typing core to solidify your team without being limited. Adding to that, the meta doesn't really have many viable Fire-types, the most relevant are Arcanine, and Volcarona with other medium options like Rotom-Heat and Heatran. Their usages might not be solely due to Genesect, that is true, but their viability and their "must need" depends on that Pokemon being present. That is the definition of a Pokemon restricting the teambuilding side of 1v1 which translates to being overcentralizing.

This is what I was referencing in my original post; genesect absolutely thrives as a cteaming mon when you know the teams your opponent will bring, assuming none of them have a fire type that gene can't tech past. I don't think this is as big of a problem in normal ladder play where most games are hidden, but I completely understand that using genesect puts you at an advantage in LT. The LT meta is kinda always funky like that though; more often than not players will discover a ladder supermon and spam it for 4 weeks before it disappears. While I don't think gene will disappear post-LT, I certainly don't think players will have the potential to use it as effectively on ladder again.

Yes, I do agree that regular ladder doesn't favorize the usage of these Genesect sets since it's more of a fun/testing way to play, but that really doesn't stop any potential tryharders sniping or utilizing these sets on ladder when LT dies out. There's also a lot of "supermon" that were born during LT such as Kyurem, but not all are as restrictive as Genesct. As a general reminder, boat said that every ladder game in LT counts as a tournament game so this also can showcase the counter teaming potential Genesect has in tournaments. It counter-teaming potential surely isn't as effective, but it does have a truly hidden potential.

Like I said before, quirky genesect sets generally only beat one or two extra mons. Unless your opponent happened to bring one of those very specific mons as their sole genesect check in the exact game you chose to bring that specific set, the tech is useless. I understand what you're saying in principle, but the fact of the matter is that this doesn't seem to be applicable in tournament play thus far, which is why I think we should wait to see if this is actually a problem.

Responding to this + above since they share the same idea. When it comes to Genesect you can't really call the tech "useless" since you rarely lose your other matchups if you bring that tech while you gain more while tailoring a set specific to a person's usage which can be repetitive sometimes (Even self-scouting doesn't always help here since comfort zones exist but that isn't a topic and irrelevant here.). The main difference between Genesect tailoring its sets to defeat the opponent's usage and other Pokemon is the opportunity cost they bring. For example, physical Regieleki might lure some stuff but that comes with a huge opportunity cost and it can be rendered useless if the opponent brings a team that isn't weak to it, meanwhile with Genesect that risk is low.

Most of the last paragraph isn't really applicable and I feel like you're describing what it means to be an S-rank mon in the meta. It's super good so it's always a safe choice, many of its hard counters share a specific type (much like urshifu and fairy types), and using an anti-check set like coba shifu or max defense genesect really only helps you beat one or two mons.

My last paragraph was explaining the difference between an S-rank (Urshifu), and a broken Pokemon (Genesect). I also have to disagree that most Urshifu share a specific type since, as I said, there's much more Pokemon outside of Fairy-types, as mentioned, that can effectively fit on teams making you able to beat Urshifu without basically building a team around a Fairy-type Pokemon. Now for Genesect, outside of the limited 4-5 relevant Fire-types in the metagame, there's little counterplay to it.

With that being said, there's points I'd like to put the spotlights on. I think the policy should be changed to be more about 1v1, and suspects should happen when concerns are risen, and not wait till everyone is on the same wave 10 months later. That's literally the point of Suspect Tests, it's to get everyone interested in sharing their opinion and voting what they think is correct. I think we all saw what Genesect can do, and there's clearly concerns among a good portion of the userbase now there's also opinions that differ and this is where the discussion/voting begins. Additionally, if any suspect should happen it should definitely be before the next major tournament which is World Cup so I urge to not dance around the lines and wait till mid World Cup to announce a Suspect Test.

 

[Boat]

Allow me to disagree. Being basically "forced" to run a Fire-type Pokemon means that you have a restriction in the teambuilding which really de-evolves the metagame. We're not a 6v6 metagame where you can re-utilize the same typing core to solidify your team without being limited. Adding to that, the meta doesn't really have many viable Fire-types, the most relevant are Arcanine, and Volcarona with other medium options like Rotom-Heat and Heatran. Their usages might not be solely due to Genesect, that is true, but their viability and their "must need" depends on that Pokemon being present. That is the definition of a Pokemon restricting the teambuilding side of 1v1 which translates to being overcentralizing.

IF it's true that Genesect only loses to Fire-types AND it's true their aren't many viable Fire-types, then the problem with Genesect is that there aren't enough counters. There's nothing inherently wrong with a Pokemon only being countered by one type, it becomes problematic when there aren't enough counters. If there were twenty viable Fire-types, we wouldn't be having this discussion about Genesect.

 

[Murm]

Alright this is just a follow up to my last post, and I'll also include my thoughts about a certain bug while I'm here.



Alright, this thing is weird. I'm not going to go too in depth about this, as the people above have done a good job doing that. My opinion on this thing has shifted so much, my last post thought it was broken, like yesterday I was leaning towards it not being broken, today I'm leaning towards it is broken. Yes, there are very few 100% counters, mainly being some fires, Corsola-Galar (I could be wrong this is what I was told), and Stakataka, plus like a few more. There are a lot of mon however that beat almost all sets. Aggron, Naganadel, Spectrier, and Aegislash are a few examples of those mons. Especially with Naganadel and Aggron, they have to specifically make the set around it. This make building around Genesect very weird. On ladder Genesect is super good at cteaming, like you all have said above, and in tours it is an excellent tool to catch people off guard. After reading everything above I'm leaning towards a ban but who knows by the time a suspect were to occur if one were to happen at all, my opinion might have changed. It has been interesting seeing this thing evolve though. One of my favorite innovations was Zen Headbutt for Naganadel and Zapdos-Galar (along with Ice Beam).



Also I might as well just say that this is the second best mon in the tier now. Urshifu is still super good, but the meta has been shifting away from it and more mons have adapted to beat it, like Zygarde. This thing just has so many sets, a great typing, great stats, a great ability, and it just has so many options. Genesect is definitely much better than it, but I would argue that it is better than everything else right now.

Anyway, now to the reasons I actually made this post.



I have been experimenting with this thing a lot recently. Ever since the last few weeks of the normal season of PL, I have thought that Mud Shot has had potential, but I decided to just truly test it. While I wouldn't say it is better than it's standard set, it helps beat a lot of mons that it would normally lose to, like Zeraora and Heatran, and give it a lot of 50/50s, when it would lose always with it's standard set, like Haxorus and Darmanitan-Galar.

Set

Enlightenment (Spectrier) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 184 HP / 224 Def / 4 SpA / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Mud Shot
- Shadow Ball

This set lives Modest Scarf Heatran Eruption, outspeeds 252+ Speed base 110s, has 4 Special Attack for Zeraora (without it it is a less favorable roll and it is only 4 evs), and a defense dump. Rocky Helmet helps with both dealing extra damage with Struggle, but it actually does the necessary damage against Zeraora, along with a few other matchups I am blanking out on right now. Disclaimer, Adamant Band Zera is a roll, you can EV it to live it always but I didn't want to. This set is more of a proof of concept than anything, tinker with it, make it your own. I just wanted to show that this thing has more to offer.

Team

Enlightenment (Spectrier) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 184 HP / 224 Def / 4 SpA / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Mud Shot
- Shadow Ball

Pest (Sylveon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 72 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Echoed Voice
- Psyshock

Virus (Genesect) @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 244 SpD / 8 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Ice Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower

This team is also more of a proof of concept. This team isn't the best, but it demonstrates what this Spectrier can do. I'll make a better team in the future, but feel free to try it out.



I personally feel that his mons potential lies more in prepping for tours, but I tried my best to make a ladder set anyway. Physical has a lot of great options, and it can beat things that it normally can't like Zarude (X-Scissor with a boost can KO most variants), Spectrier, Dragapult, and more. The problem with a lot of these matchups is that they might be able to outplay if they know the set. I still think that it can be more explored in tours, maybe even on ladder.

Team

Luminescence (Necrozma) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 132 HP / 188 Atk / 188 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Outrage

Casting (Heatran) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rock Tomb
- Earth Power
- Overheat

Pest (Sylveon) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 92 SpA / 16 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Fake Tears

Here is a team with Choice Band Necrozma. Blanched sent me the set, and they don't remember what it did, but it has been doing well for me. For a while I was trying to build with this set but I was struggling to make it work on ladder. Again, this isn't the best team, it hates Dracovish in particular, but it'll hopefully show it's merits. Necrozma has a lot of room to grow, and I hope this encourages more people to look into it. Scarf, LO, WP, Specs, Sitrus, Band, Twisted Spoon, Resist Berries, AV, Custap, and many more items are all viable on this thing and maybe in the future these sets will truly develop.

Shoutouts to all the people that have helped me look into this. Smely Socks, Gym Socks, Krytocon, Joker, Akuma, Blanched, Charm, Bandit, and all the others I am blanking out on I'm sorry. Gen 8 still has a lot of room to grow, and with some creativity, there is so much that can be done. Thank you all for reading. I might talk more about general creativity in the meta some time in the future. If any of you have any creative sets they would like to share, hit me up, I would love to see them.

 

[Potatochan]

trying to help zio build for lt playoffs but we have accidentally rebuilt 3 teams we built during qualifying phase. the fires are poo poo but you need to run them. someone save me

 

[DEG]

I agree w/ Potatochan waiting more is inacceptable, building for LT has been nothing but dumb and just brainless Fire-type spam which limits creativity and the way we're supposed to play, idk what waiting more helps, it makes things worse. Waiting makes LT more RPS-styled, and less skill / teambuilding based and really if it gets banned, it gives meta less time to settle for World Cup which is literally one of the worst thing that can happen. Let's stop pushing away the inevitable and suspect Genesect already. There's literally 0 reason to continue ignoring the issue or push it back. The meta is simply not enjoyable.

 

[zioziotrip]

yea this meta blows lmao

I was gonna write something more eloquent but I haven’t been able to find the time and deg/potato have already outlined the primary issues w genesect. gene can beat a vast majority of the tier outside of fires/spdef corsola. I think the biggest pain to previous counterplay has been the exploration of Scarf which lets it beat previous counters like pult/nagan/scarf darm-g but you also have the revelation that occa can bulk aggron/zera/eleki etc which makes it even more of a nuisance. If you want to play devil’s advocate and say “Just setguess Lol” you’re telling people to literally guess ev distribution on top of the set’s coverage/item which is just straight up not a reasonable expectation at a top level especially when most sets share incredibly similar core MUs. also the opportunity cost is not really there, bug/steel w its stats just beat a ton of tier regardless of item/ev distribution so it’s incredibly easy to cover a ton of the tier at once, this is probably most apparent in occa where attack invest is pretty pointless meaning the bulk has very little cost.

genesect is broken and a majority of the active playerbase wants it banned. holding off on a suspect is uneccesary, the counterplay has been extensively explored nothing new is going to pop out of the woodworks. pls suspect asap this meta is torture

 

[Murm]

Bulky Occa Gene is so good, yeah suspect this thing

 

[LRXC]

Why couldn't they just give avalugg heat crash

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

This is just not ok...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1347275733-bt7ho7bt29svoyc01297kyz4jt7qutupw

 

[Adam3560]

Based on recent posts and talk in the 1v1 community, a genesect ban is most likely going to happen. In this post I want to share some of my ideas on what I think a post-genesect meta could look like, and most importantly what the "winners" and "losers" in a post-genesect meta would probably be.

Winners:
+
Zygarde and urshifu are generally thought as the second and third best pokemon right now(order is debated), and they both lose to genesect, which means that both are looking to be even better in a post-genesect meta. I'm still unsure who will be the new queen/king of the tier but my bets are going to be on zygarde, as it's newer sets are making it much less predictable and harder to beat.


A loss of genesect and a drop in usage of fires is going to really aid rillaboom's viability in the tier, and I think it is looking to go up in usage. Rillaboom's ability to run sets that can beat both urshifu and zygarde(grassy seed swords dance) is going to give players a great reason to run rillaboom on their team.

++++
I think the tier's fairies are going to be the biggest winners here for a few reasons. The ban of genesect will mean a loss of genesect and a drop in fires, two things that will only aid the top fairies' viabilities. The place of zygarde and urshifu as the tier's two best pokemon are great for fairies overall, as both generally struggle with them. Primarina and tapu fini I think might be the smallest winners here as primarina can be teched for by zygarde and both of them enjoyed the presence of fires in the tier, while aromatisse and sylveon are looking to be huge winners out of a genesect ban.


Beats zygarde, beats urshifu, beats rillaboom. Avalugg is going to love genesect's removal from the tier and the decrease in usage of fires, and will most likely rise up on the viability rankings.(I'm thinking like B+). LRXC's thugg/plugg/fini team is most likely going to get better post-genesect, as avalugg will flourish and the team will no longer get 3-0'd by av gene.


Beating zygarde and urshifu, a loss of genesect from the tier, and a decrease of fires/increase of fairies is going to be great for ferrothorn.

Losers:

Fire types overall are going to be hurt from genesect's disappearance, losing their main niche in the teambuilder. I think the community has sort of collectively realized that fires are not that good and are mostly necessary as a genesect counter. The rise of zygarde as the probable best pokemon in the tier is going to be a deterrent for fires, and a drop in viability for arcanine. However, again, the existence of spectrier and rillaboom will still give players a reason to use fires, which might stop them from dropping too far.

+
Stall overall is looking to be worse as a playstyle after genesect's' departure, as genesect was one of the main targets for pokemon like registeel and corsola-g. Additionally, registeel does not like its matchup vs urshifu and zygarde, being weak to one of each's stabs. However, a drop in fires and a rise in fairies might just keep registeel's usage afloat, and I can't be sure exactly how well registeel will fare in a post-genesect metagame.


Goodra used to function as a pretty decent genesect counter, which is a niche it will no longer have. A predicted decrease in fires and increase in fairies is going to be annoying for goodra at team preview, and goodra no longer being able to consistently beat zygarde(sub toxic set) is not going to be enjoyable either.

What teams will start looking like in the future:
Steel dragon fairy teams I think are still looking to be highly-used, and they will likely appreciate not having to run heatran or some weird genesect set as a solid genesect counter.

I made this team that looks to be fairly solid post-genesect:
https://pokepast.es/30ab68d57e5c9581

team details

Zygarde+ferrothorn looks to be very good in a post-genesect metagame, no longer having to worry about genesect, and being able to take on a majority of the metagame. Chople berry urshifu rounds out the team by dealing with aggron, spectrier, darmanitan-galar, and necrozma. Pretty sure the team doesn't get 3-0'd by anything.

 

[crucify]

hello everyone, im crucify and this is actually my first post in the vr/metagame discussion thread ever even though i've been on metagame council like 4 months KEK im not too good at these but will try my best

anyway, not to take away from our current suspect but i'm here to start forum discussion and briefly talk about a mon thats ascended af recently:

im sure this mon is the subject of many ladder players hatred after getting flinched down repeatedly by it, but at this point this mon is problematic for reasons beyond simply haxing wins in mus it shouldn't.

alongside its classic choice scarf set and choice band, recently ladder fiend pqs and ONE VERSUS ONE PREMIER LEAGUE FIVE WINNER Potatochan (tagging them to post about this as well) have popularized the following set:
Jirachi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Encore
that beats a bunch of would be rachi answers such as non specs volcanion zygarde landot non av pert etc and is in general just a good set and good stallbreaker that has seen use in majors and lt playoffs and on ladder a bunch (i personally used it quite a bit when getting gene reqs and this dude pqs spams it 10 hours a day). I'm not gonna do a mu chart for it because thats not my thing, my best recommendation if you doubt it is to try it yourself!

so between these three sets jirachi pretty much beats 80% of the metagame and has a ton of set ambiguity at preview thats hard, though with opportunity cost but like you can think ur sick picking ttar expecting stored power rachi but catch a band iron head to the jaw. this might be a hot take but i think at this point in the metagame jirachi is honestly more problematic than genesect (the mon we're currently suspecting (it also beats genesect Lol)) and a quickban or suspect should happen after the conclusion of the current suspect.

tagging goons again to expand on this pqs Potatochan , I encourage anyone that has thoughts on rachi to post in this thread or discuss it in the 1v1 discord, gn

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

The one jirachi Genesect actually beats

 

[DEG]

I do agree with crucify here. During these past days preparing and picking against Jirachi has been a bumpy ride. I don't want to sound too ban happy but Jirachi technically forces the user to run specific Pokemon which is extremely restricting. For Genesect, these Pokemon shared a type, but for Jirachi Fire-type Pokemon can lose to Stored Power (Arcanine, Non-Choice Specs Volcanino), meanwhile Dark-Type crumbles to Choice Banded Jirachi with Iron Head (Tyranitar), or Play Rough (Urshifu), the Choice Band set also checks Psychic-Pokemon that may counter Stored Power such as Necrozma. The sets are also little distinguishable on team preview, and both have different counters, so a lot of the times it's just trying to discern the set and coin flipping.

The correct stance to take on this, is to wait till Genesect suspect is over, a council vote should be held to either quick ban (ofc) Jirachi or keep it, then resuspect it once World Cup is over.

 

[Murm]

I also believe in the points above about Jirachi, aka wait until the Genesect suspect is over, a council vote on it, and then resuspect once WC is over. I think waiting until the suspect is over would give us enough time to truly see it's full effect on the meta now since WP has been popularized. Honestly I don't even know how I fully stand on Jirachi, but it has very few 100% counters, has great stats, and is super hard to determine on team preview. Right now, I personally feel that it is even worse for the meta than Genesect. It has a lot of coverage like Genesect, for examples Energy Ball, Moonblast, Play Rough, Elemental Punches, and Icy Wind, it has a lot of great disruptive options like Trick and Encore, and I can see that leading into more experimentation. Also unlike Genesect it doesn't have a four times weakness, allowing it to not truly have one type that beats it. This thing is obnoxious on ladder and I'm worried about it's effects for tours.

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

The current gen 8 1v1 metagame be like

 

[PA]

Jirachi is (and will definitely be once Genesect is banned) a completely centralizing force within the 1v1 metagame. While sets such as Choice Band and Choice Scarf are still effective, the popularisation of sets such as Weakness Policy, alongside other techs such as Occa Berry and Colbur Berry, made Jirachi capable of dealing with everything besides Pokemon specifically equiped for it. Choice Scarf is usually associated with flinch spam, only using hax to win; thats why in Gen 7, it was less effective and outclassed by numerous amounts of Pokemon. However, because of the lack of Z moves and Mega Evolutions, Jirachi's access to Encore and Trick allows it to beat back the stall Pokemon that once threatened it, shutting them down instantly. The Weakness Policy set had turned unreliable or inconsistent matchups into much more favourable ones such as non-Choice Specs Volcanion and Landorus-T with Jirachi often luring in Pokemon who would stand slightly better odds at breaking through Scarf Jirachi's hax or Band’s natural power thanks to their natural bulk, only to find them unable to break through the boosted defenses of a 100/100/100 bulk Pokemon, with a boosted Stored Power. Predicting the sets is slightly easier in tournament, as relying on a hax based strategy to get tour wins is well “welp”, but on ladder predicting is purely 50/50, with almost all of its sets being extremely viable. Essentially, Jirachi is a highly tailorable Pokemon that only gained access to higher relative power and better techs in the generational shift, all of which exhibit very high levels of viability and hence needs to go.