Team MWP IV Format Discussion Thread

[maroon]

Hey everyone, it's that time of the year again for MWP. This time around we would like to be opening up discussion on the tournament's format. Last year's format consisted of:

previous format

SS:
SS:
SS BO3:
Threat:
AAA:
STABmons:
LC:
National Dex:

This year, we would like to bring up the following topics for consideration. The tour will be a money draft again. Feel free to bring up anything else like:
- reorganizing the metagames that appear in mwp and potentially increasing the SS Monotype slots to 3 and 1 SS BO3 in the tour
- If you think AAA/STABmons should be removed with different metagames please give suggestions of what should replace it
- reducing the number of slots in mwp
- should retains be allows in mwp, same rules would apply as mpl
- when should the tour start with the release of BDSP and Legends of Arceus

The date for manager signups is TBD. MWP should stay as an OM tour. If you feel strongly about a certain format, now is the time to say so as well as why you feel this way. That means giving a proper explanation why you believe a metagame should be removed or featured in the tournament, simply saying 'x metagame is bad' won't suffice. Shitposting will not be tolerated and will be punished via infraction, please use this thread to only make serious posts. This thread will be the only place to air concerns about MWP, once the final decision has been made by the mod team here, the format will not change.

 

[Sabella]

I dont believe AAA or stabmons should be in this tournament this iterate but different monotype versions of metagames that i will discuss later. I dont believe that AAA and stabmons should be included because these metagames are so volatile and just decay the prestige of what could be a really great tournament because of how unbalanced they are. My ideal format is SS X 3 BO3 Monothreat National Dex Monotype LC Monotype Ubers. I would be willing to discuss a different metagame in place of the third SS slot depending on what is suggested. I believe Ubers should be included as it is a much less volatile metagame while overall having a larger player base.

 

[Splash]

scrap aaa/stab/lc. essentially making it the same format as the past mono wcop.
ideal format:
ss
ss
ss bo3
sm
oras
bw
threat
natdex

 

[Sabella]

scrap aaa/stab/lc. essentially making it the same format as the past mono wcop.
ideal format:
ss
ss
ss bo3
sm
oras
bw
threat
natdex

This is supposed to be an om tournament still tho. plus didnt you say you dont play this tier anymore?

 

[roxie]

Not much input, but I’ve really been enjoying Tier Shift and I think the clause puts a really interesting twist to the metagame. Bondie and I have personally been working on developing OMs at the beginning of the year which is why I think it’s worth exploring or at least changing up one slot. K3ppr hosted a side tournament and overall bumping lower tier mons to be more viable has made Tier Shift one of the most fun tiers to play during his tournament. I think it’s pretty cool seeing how the OM and Monotype community kinda works together for a few weeks (forcing non-Monotype players to pretty much get involved with Monotype).

National Dex Monotype gets a lot of representation especially in various tours for the National Dex sub forum and even its own premier league and I don’t think we lose anything with excluding it if there are other possible options.

 

[Derpeddeath]

While I disagree with having an OM tour early on in a somewhat fresher meta, I do believe Natdex and Threat must be retained simply because they are the only 2 OMs that will actually be somewhat viable because being a fresh meta has little to no impact on these OMs. On the other hand Uber should under no circumstances be allowed in the tour, it is simply a terribly balanced OM with only 3 viable types, the lack of an even distribution of Ubers across the types makes it more or less incompatible with Monotype.
I would recommend Monotype Blitz as an "OM" (I believe there is nothing in any rules that states that games must have a minimum amount of time.)
AAA, STAB and LC are classic Monotype OMs and have been a part of MWP for pretty much forever, resources for these tiers already exist and are also very popular as regular OM's/tiers which draws a large player base. I would prefer they do not be included but should definitely take precedence over other OMs.
While I'm a big fan of less popular OMs such as trademarked and inheritance they simply lack the resources, development and player base to be effective as an OM in a big team tour.
Assuming we start around the same time we did last year, Legends of Arceus shouldn't affect MWP.
Reduce slots to 6 so the format can look like

SS
SS
Blitz
BO3
Natdex
Threat

 

[Ticken]

Before I go into my answers for the questions mentioned in the OP, I would like to bring up the idea of doing NatDex Monothreat instead of SS Monothreat. Both are fine metagames to include here but I've talked to the other Monothreat council members about this, to some degree, and there's a consensus that doing NatDex Monothreat is flat out better for many reasons. Monothreat feeds off teambuilder diversity and losing so many Pokemon, moves, and items drastically restricts our creativity and counterplay. NatDex Monothreat was played in a side tour elsewhere and we can say from personal experience it is the better metagame and each metagame I built for was quite balanced even with changes such as Mega Lopunny being immune to (Staraptor's) Intimidate. It is strictly a benefit to the metagame and would definitely lead to more fun building and hype moments throughout the tour so I say it should be given a shot!

- reorganizing the metagames that appear in mwp and potentially increasing the SS Monotype slots to 3 and 1 SS BO3 in the tour

From my experience dealing with the slot spread in previous tours and listening to other's opinions, there's generally a strong idea passed around that Bo3 should be MPL exclusive as that can help distinguish it from other team tours and requires a greater degree of preparation. If SS has 2 guaranteed slots, I would favor doing another SS instead of an SS Bo3... but having 3 SS and an SS Bo3 is by far too much. Favoring the current gen meta makes sense and should be continued throughout all our tours but this is our only annual OM tour so it would hurt seeing so much SS support when there are other viable options.

- If you think AAA/STABmons should be removed with different metagames please give suggestions of what should replace it

Pretty much any Mono team tour that included OMs, barring ones that included only Monothreat, included both AAA and STABmons since the beginning in MPL I. That on its own shouldn't decide whether it should continue on in this tour but with that in mind, there should be a great reason to replace them if they are removed. I have not played either since ORAS, if that, and the player pool for both tend to be names from the general OM community rather than our own so I can understand that that puts into question why we continue to add them. Mono has very few OMs that are well-developed and I see MWP as the reason for our OMs to continue developing their competitive culture.

My question here is, should we look into trying out a new format and seeing how it fares in a team tour setting or continue with AAA and STABmons because there are no better replacements, currently. I would love to see Mono Doubles included but I know that is a hot take and many, many Mono players do not touch doubles. It has not been touched since MPL II but it adds another dimension to the OMs and will surely change how we play and could attract other players to the scene.

- reducing the number of slots in mwp

This question goes hand-in-hand with the first question imo since if we do 3 SS and 6 slots it's pushing what should be allowed if we continue to advertise this as our OM tour with any more than that requiring 8 slots. 6 slots is tricky because like I said before, I think this tour should be what our OMs aspire to join so it would be a travesty if only 3 were allowed entry, further closing the gap, especially when 2 of those slots are pretty much filled by Monothreat and NatDex. I would prefer if the number of teams was reduced before the number of slots is.

- should retains be allows in mwp, same rules would apply as mpl

Retains are already a semi-controversial subject in MPL. I say semi-controversial because reducing it to only 1 rather than 2 evens it out but then it gets into the whole team franchising and pricing debacle and it doesn't need to be debated on if it's not necessary to. I do not think retains should be supported.

 

[Bluxio]

Scrap lc and natdex.

SS:
SS:
SS/SS BO3/BW/whatever:
SM:
Oras:
Threat/Natdex Threat:
AAA:
STABmons:


I am aware this is very similar to mono wcop but I am choosing to ignore that because in an ideal world mono wcop was scrapped yesterday.

 

[Jahkem]

Sabella brought up an interesting idea of having different iterations of Mono OMs to try. I’m going throw out a few suggestions that might seem interesting, whether or not they’re doable.

Before I begin:

Before I go into my answers for the questions mentioned in the OP, I would like to bring up the idea of doing NatDex Monothreat instead of SS Monothreat. Both are fine metagames to include here but I've talked to the other Monothreat council members about this, to some degree, and there's a consensus that doing NatDex Monothreat is flat out better for many reasons. Monothreat feeds off teambuilder diversity and losing so many Pokemon, moves, and items drastically restricts our creativity and counterplay. NatDex Monothreat was played in a side tour elsewhere and we can say from personal experience it is the better metagame and each metagame I built for was quite balanced even with changes such as Mega Lopunny being immune to (Staraptor's) Intimidate. It is strictly a benefit to the metagame and would definitely lead to more fun building and hype moments throughout the tour so I say it should be given a shot!

I also want to support the notion of NatDex Monothreat from Ticken. There’s always been a lot of love for Monothreat and increasing the build diversity could open up more fresh ideas.

Moving onto the other suggestions, there’s Monotype Ubers. It’s always been a hit or miss OM with the community but could be better to play than AAA or STABmons.

This next OM is usually brought up but never really considered: Monotype Doubles. It’s a really interesting format but it’s such a vastly different format compared to singles. However, I believe that the current generation of players, and even some older players, are a lot smarter when it comes to adapting and building. It wouldn’t take long for people to get the hang of Doubles and create the metagame for it.


Which leads to my last suggested OM, Mix and Mega. If this OM were to ever be considered in the slightest, there would have to be a discussion on how the mega stones would be balanced. The same mega rule that applies to USUM, and more recently ORAS, can apply to MnM. Mega stones and the regular Mon must share the same type as the rest of the team (i.e. Giving Tapu Bulu a Charizardite X stone would only be allowed on Fairy teams since it would change from Grass to Dragon). Also, applying the Monotype ban list, with a few different iterations, could be enough to balance it for the most part. Iirc, they allow Ubers mons but they aren’t allowed to Mega. We could just remove the Uber mons altogether to avoid that complex ban.

The format would look something like:

SS:
SS:
Ubers:
NatDex Threat:
Mix and Mega:
Doubles:
LC:
National Dex:

Also, hot take, we could have a Dynamax allowed SS Mono slot. I personally wouldn’t like it but there might be a few that would want to try it out.

 

[sasha]

Not super involved in forums but I am for one looking forward to this tour (even if undrafted, spectating is fun). The current format to me looks fine but the format I'd like to see would be something akin to :

format

SS:
SS:
SS BO3:
Threat/Natdex Threat:
AAA :
Mono Ubers :
LC :
National Dex:

I liked Sabella and Ticken's proposal to introduce Ubers and Natdex threat respectively. Ubers could be something new and cool to see although it seems pretty underdeveloped, if developed at all(?). Ticken makes a really strong point that I wont really reiterate here but the main portion of it is dexit. Natdex threat opens up the tier a lot more and really allows you to bring some heat shit, which SS doesn't always really allow consistently and you end up seeing the same mons for the most part. Looking at some weeks from last years MWP the teams brought on both sides of the threat games just looked really similar all the time and I mean I get that's more indicative of both players having to use the same type so ofc they're gonna bring similar teams, but some of them were like almost identical. This I feel gets kind of boring considering threat is about out-prepping your opponent and bringing creative and unique sets.

replays from last years mwp threat

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-531005
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-530859
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1238566784
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1246698157
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1247337294

That being said, including Ubers would remove one of the other OMs from the equation, being either one of LC/AAA/STAB. I'm pretty bias here since LC mono just sounds fun to me personally and I'd rather keep it since it seems like its pretty fresh and easy to build. AAA and STAB though are a whole different beast and through my limited time playing both OMs I've found that AAA is generally easier to pickup for those who are interested in trying it or for teams who would rather spend more on other OMs than get dedicated OM support for these two tiers. I say this because of my experience through TPP 2 and 3 and spectating previous OMWC these tiers need pretty intense support. I know those tours are not mono based but the concept still kinda stands imo. Obviously that's just a subjective stance on it but I think STAB is way more frustrating to experiment with considering like every mon gets almost every move and generally the meta seems way too crazy to get acquainted to. On top of that when you're playing AAA, it's like usually decently easy to point out what abilities something is using almost immediately since I've seen shit like desolate sun Tran which you're seeing t1 and can start planning how to deal with it, opposed to STABmons just being pretty unpredictable and hard to play unless you're a mainer. The other recommendations above with including older gen monotypes is interesting enough to me but with the stress here being on OMs I suppose that's what's more important to focus on. But, I do think an older gen slot could fit in place with a Bo3 slot if it's removed, as I feel that 3 SS is a bit overbearing in an OM tour.

 

[Sabella]

Sabella brought up an interesting idea of having different iterations of Mono OMs to try. I’m going throw out a few suggestions that might seem interesting, whether or not they’re doable.

Before I begin:

I also want to support the notion of NatDex Monothreat from Ticken. There’s always been a lot of love for Monothreat and increasing the build diversity could open up more fresh ideas.

Moving onto the other suggestions, there’s Monotype Ubers. It’s always been a hit or miss OM with the community but could be better to play than AAA or STABmons.

This next OM is usually brought up but never really considered: Monotype Doubles. It’s a really interesting format but it’s such a vastly different format compared to singles. However, I believe that the current generation of players, and even some older players, are a lot smarter when it comes to adapting and building. It wouldn’t take long for people to get the hang of Doubles and create the metagame for it.


Which leads to my last suggested OM, Mix and Mega. If this OM were to ever be considered in the slightest, there would have to be a discussion on how the mega stones would be balanced. The same mega rule that applies to USUM, and more recently ORAS, can apply to MnM. Mega stones and the regular Mon must share the same type as the rest of the team (i.e. Giving Tapu Bulu a Charizardite X stone would only be allowed on Fairy teams since it would change from Grass to Dragon). Also, applying the Monotype ban list, with a few different iterations, could be enough to balance it for the most part. Iirc, they allow Ubers mons but they aren’t allowed to Mega. We could just remove the Uber mons altogether to avoid that complex ban.

The format would look something like:

SS:
SS:
Ubers:
NatDex Threat:
Mix and Mega:
Doubles:
LC:
National Dex:

Also, hot take, we could have a Dynamax allowed SS Mono slot. I personally wouldn’t like it but there might be a few that would want to try it out.

I like the idea of Doubles. Mix and Mega seems like it would have the same issues as AAA or Stabmons but im not really sure as i dont play it. Doubles being popular as its own tier compared to a fringe metagame like mix and mega is also a plus for me.

 

[Fraolain]

SS:
SS:
SS/Let'sGo Eevee and pikachu /SM/ORAS/BW/DPP/ADV/GSC/RBY Bo9:
Threat:
Mix and Mega:
STABmons:
Tier shift:
VGC:

Aaa = worst OM, MnM is more fun to play and more balanced.

Also LC mono is very boring (very boring) while tier shift is fast and funny with cool cramorant or appletun.

Make the bo3 a bo9 so every generation so far is represented by monotype.

And finally nat dex mono is the worst version of monotype so I think it would be wise to replace it by something like vgc or anything else I didn't have any better idea.

 

[ToxaNex]

Unfortunately the options are the OM's people feel burnt out from (LC, Ubers, AAA, Stabmons), or tiers that are in mostly uncharted territory in monotype doubles, monotype Tier Shift, or other tiers like CAP or even camomons (Though out of those I mentioned I think there is the most potential in Tier shift and would like to see it included in mwp).

With the gen 4 remakes coming soon and arceus likely coming mid tour, Tier shift actually wouldnt be as affected by the changes until the new mons adjust down to the lower tiers, so it could keep the meta constant while slowly shifting throughout the tour. Also on the plus side it would be a meta that would value mono players over OM players. In a less competitive environment which was the previously mentioned Mono OM discord tour, it had usage from a wide amount of types, with types normally less viable like fighting and Ice being viable and other mid tier types like Bug and Ghost taking a bigger role in the meta.

Doubles is probably the best option as far as new tiers to add is concerned, but without an actual player base it is a tough sell. Though there should be some interest from mono players, double players would likely be integrated by a larger degree.

Mix and Mega wasnt even included in that discord OM mono tour hosted by K3. As a mono player guy who played MnM in a couple team tours including OM world cup, I really do not think it would be a strong tier as a Mono OM. It would likely have a few types dominate the meta due to access of E speed and the overall ability to abuse Aerilate/Pixilate with a lack of playability on certain types. It would have similar issues as AAA, though a benefit of MnM over AAA is that it would be more offensive meta than AAA which has been more bulky/stally for a while now. Also it would bring the issue that MnM is a ubers based format, and without a well defined mono ubers banlist I feel Mono MnM would be a mess.

I understand the issues of AAA and LC, but is Stabmons really that bad as well? Last MWP we had a bunch of players building and testing stabmons and it seemed like a pretty fun meta to build for.

As for Ubers, I just remember in SM everybody just constantly complained about mono ubers, and I do not think it is much better without Mega's and Arceus (until the release of legends of arceus) as there is less options and the type variety will probably not be higher than it was in gen 7, which even then there was like 3/4 types dominating the whole meta. Though maybe NatDex Ubers could be interesting, but I do not think even that solves the issues the player base had with mono ubers overall.

Also with monotype being light on active OM's, and the release of a game affects threat to lesser degree than other tiers (it is easier to adjust to a release in threat than other tiers) could it be considered to run both SS threat and Natdex threat? Like we could run different types per week so there is a minimal overlap.

Another thought I has was since MWP is a OM tour, what about 2 SS slots and 2 Natdex slots. Since Natdex is the OM that is closest to regular monotype and has been rapidly gaining more and more traction having its own sub room on showdown it makes sense to increase its number of slots in a monotype OM tour.

Though another idea that I have seen in other smogon OM tours, could be incorporating a rotating tier to tiers like Tier shift and doubles, to test them out in a MWP setting without giving them a whole slot on their own. Thus giving the last slot to LC or AAA while having doubles and tier shift rotate in and out weekly with each other.

 

[Chaitanya]

Why does MWP have to stay an OM tour? The demand is obviously super low amongst community members. Forgetting about the absolute lack of quality for a moment, if people have to be forced into certain slots during a tour they don't want to be in there's obviously an issue. These tiers are already supremely underdeveloped and on top of that we're likely getting two new meta shifts with the new games over the course of the tour. Everyone is trying to throw in natdex for god knows what reason over the other tiers. It's pretty obvious this tour doesn't need to be an OM tour. I'll get into the natdex bit later but it really has no place in this tournament.

My biggest issue with this tour is that I have always seen MWP as the MPL for OMs where you showcase these OMs similar to how MPL showcases our oldgens. Asking around a bit has shown me this is a common perception. However, this has never been the case, very few people from our own community play a whole tier for the whole season, and we import a bunch of aaa and stab and whatnot and ask them to plug in holes that we can't from our community. It doesn't make sense. This tour is supposed to cater to our community, not 4 other ones that will have nothing to do with us afterwards. This is supposed to be our second biggest tournament, where we want to 'showcase' oms ala MPL and old gens, but we have random dudes being thrown into random slots. Forget if they're any good (lol) most people barely want to be in those slots. Keeping this tour for the sake of tradition is so fucking absurd. No one likes AAA and Stab, nothing else has even been remotely close to properly explored before throwing it into something that is supposed to be our second biggest/best tournament.

believe Ubers should be included as it is a much less volatile metagame while overall having a larger player base.

Stuff like this doesn't make sense to me at all. There's been literally no mention of Ubers monotype in SS. Who cares if they have a larger player base. Why do we want to cater to like the AAA or Ubers community for 7 weeks for them to have nothing to do with us after? We should be thinking about the mono ubers playerbase which is virtually nonexistent, not the ubers playerbase who may but probably wouldn't join anyway. If you want to advertise to them do it during the rest of the year. Not two weeks before our second biggest tour.

On the topic of Natdex, I really don't understand why it's the first to be included?? Sure it's the most liked and developed and played but that's the point. Natdex Monotype has its own forum and its own complete tour where they have a million natdex mono slots. They also have 2 slots in natdexpl so like there is literally no reason they should be in this tour. They do their own thing. The rest of the Monotype OMs have no dedicated forum or development or the biggest thing; representation, so I get adding those to this tour, but natdex just doesn't make sense at all considering the tier already has everything any other fully developed tier does. There is so so so much representation for it outside of the monotype forum, It really doesn't need to be in this tour or world cup for that matter. There is 0 objective reason to have any natdex mono slots in a Monotype forum tour. If this is the best argument for it to stay it really better not lol

If we do end up with monothreat, Natdex Mono threat may be better idk but it's something the mono forum hasn't seen at all. Again, Natdex mono has its own forum with its own tour. Natdex mono is essentially a separate community from monotype at this point. Keep them separate. Similarly keep natdex mono threat to natdex mono tours, not monotype tours. That being said get rid of threat. We've seen the same types multiple times over tours now, testing is nearly impossible within your own team considering you're lucky to have one player that plays threat forget about two. Natdex mono shouldn't be a substitute for it, it's a whole other tier.

Tbt this iconic post which pretty much covers it https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mpl-vii-format-discussion-thread.3685216/#post-8872943

Doubles would kill this tour before it starts. There's been 0 mention of doubles mono or ubers mono or natdex mono threat in the mono community before this. Our second biggest tour! And people want to add tiers most people don't know existed lmaoo. That Mix and mega and cap were brought up is genuinely unbelievable.

Proposal: SS/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW

MPL showed everyone pretty clearly the quality was downright awful across 8 slots. If that hasn't been enough the Booty invitational games are all over the place. OMs that don't have sufficient players will be even worse in quality, especially when you're tossing in people that don't know or will forget about mechanics during a game. The new games are coming. Natdex has its own forum. Threat players all end up going to ticken to test. Maybe 10 people who care about AAA/STAB/LC would get drafted? If that? Just don't have this tour right now lol there's way too much going against it. If the mods are hellbent on it, I would advise on holding it off for a bit so week 1 starts after LoA is released, and try to develop some interest in the tiers you plan to have before then, because currently this would end up the same way the last few MWPs have if not worse.

I think this is however the best time possible to try out a 6 slot old gen tour. Eien said it best on cord 'Forcing OMs when nobody's investing time/effort into them seems like not adapting to what people are actually interested anymore in favor of tradition' While I know that's not totally accurate and there are a few that invest a lot of effort into them, it's not reflective on the interest/effort of the tours community because at the end of the day we're not having this tour for the room casuals that can't crack 1400 on the ladder. Keeping a tour in sake of tradition is backwards, especially when the same tour has been downright awful over and over again. Throwing out AAA and Stab for ubers and mix and mega or some nonsense similar isn't going to change that.

 

[maroon]

I don't know why chaitanya is trying his hardest to make this tour the same exact thing as mpl but with less people to increase the quality. it is pretty clear his idea is the same exact thing he proposed in the mpl7 discussion thread and it doesn't really make sense to have mwp to be a more exclusive version of mpl, like at all.

aside from that if a mwp does happen i think it should be an om tour mixed with ss monotype. however, i don't think it needs to happen this year. it is clear that most people agree the oms arent super competitive or developed, which can lead to some of the problems chait brought up about the oms. i think the best way to handle this is to figure out which oms we want to develop as a community, focus on growing those out, then circle back to this tour next year. the metagames we choose imo should not have random elements added to them like aaa and stabmons, hopefully making them more competitive and developed oms. we could perhaps use wcop tiers but as a regular draft tour this year, and forgo wcop. although wcop is fun, the regions based teams are annoying, however the metagames are a nice compromise between all oms and old gens. i believe splash suggested this in some way earlier as well. these are just my personal opinions btw, would like to hear what others think of this!

 

[Chaitanya]

it doesn't really make sense to have mwp to be a more exclusive version of mpl, like at all.

Why not? MWP isn't a defined tournament which requires OMs lol That's just how it started out because there used to be a real interest in the OMs. That interest has obviously waned so why not have a tour which more people from the mono tournament community are interested in? If the interest in OMs rises again we can integrate that back into the tour next time. In case it wasn't clear I don't think the 6 slot old gen proposal should replace current MWP forever. It's just a temporary placeholder this year, because the OMs are pretty clearly a mess. People seem to like MWC but regardless I think making mono wc dependent on the tiers MWP includes is a big mistake.

 

[Gray]

yall give oldgens enough love in wcop and mpl and if you want to make mwp a more unique tour, oms are the best way to do that.
That being said, some of the oms suck and i think we could add new ones that would have a bigger playerbase and just as a way of testing alternatives for future years.

When i think of the worst tier to ever exist, lc mono is probably what comes to my mind. I involuntarily laugh whenever its mentioned. Basically a pick-between-4-types tier with no variation in teams and a small playerbase. Played that shit last time w seo and it was just so bad that it was funny

i dont rly have an opinion on aaa or stabmons cuz i never touched the tiers but i heard it wasnt great.

mono doubles sounds cool asf and i know that doubles players love touching anything doubles even if its wacky and unexplored like dnu in tours plaza premier or dlc in lpl so the playerbase wouldnt be something to worry about.

natdex mono definitely isnt far off from ss at all and has basically the same playerbase and imo is worth including again (i also think its pretty fun)

if you dont want to force a player in a slot, then dont buy the player. That being said, threat goes against that because everyone assumes that if you play ss, then u can play threat and just buy the player anyway so i dont support it

ubers seems like a pretty interesting and new pick, i dont think itd be like lc where certain types dominate and should have a lot of variety

Unfortunately underdeveloped tiers like doubles and ubers can cause problems with this tour and its important to start looking into them if you actually plan on making this tour unique

ss/ss/ss/bo3 gen 5, 6, and 7/doubles mono/natdex/ubers/mix n mega OR stabmons

 

[Ticken]

Chaitanya I don't want to hear you talk about Monothreat. I have heard enough from you in the past year and you always spout nonsense about teams not being able to draft players for it and that literally everyone comes to me. You have the idea in your head that you must be a main to play it, or really any format for that matter, and that is not accurate in the slightest.

There have been countless tournaments where players perform well in Monothreat even if they haven't played it much before because there is a plethora of options at your disposal and it isn't played year round so the meta still feels fresh when we return. I would argue that Monothreat is deeper than regular Monotype and it is less matchup oriented and more-so rewards building skill and understanding. I have heard from many "tour mains" over the years that Monothreat is a fun and competitive format that has a relatively low bar of entry. I say "relatively low bar" because you do need to know common threats and strategies but that goes with any format with depth. You don't need to be a "main" to build for Monothreat as long as you can spot each type's specific weaknesses, how to exploit it, and craft a team to support your vision. Testing is a necessary evil but if you have just 1 loyal practice partner you are set, trust me. I can tell you first hand that I only tested with 2 people a week max in MWP after the first week. Stop saying everyone comes to me -- it's flat out misinformation and I am sick of it.

Just because Mono NatDex has a different designated area on the forum does not mean it shouldn't be allowed in the tournament. You are stretching for that and you know it. Stop trying to splinter the community and not welcome them in because you strictly only support current and old gen formats. It's disgusting how little sympathy you have for other's opinions because you don't want to work things out with them and build something truly special. NatDex Monothreat should be supported because there are countless reasons why it is better than SS Monothreat... you are purposely trying to belittle the format for no reason whatsoever.

Changing this tour to only current and old gens would be a big mistake. Not everyone in the Mono community only wants to play those. Some of us want to have fun, play with you others in a tour that brings people together, and play Monotype with a twist. I speak for other Mono OM supporters when I say if we change this tournament to only have current and old gens, I am leaving the community.

 

[Railgun]

My proposal is to add DOU over AAA, I really love the idea of MWP with OM.

Monotype doubles could be fun and currently you see some monotype teams like fire, rock, ice in some tour games.

I propose the following format:

- SS
- SS
- SM, ORAS, BW (BO3)
- Doubles
- National Dex
- LC
- Threat
- Something new like bo3 old gens (RBY-ADV), NFE, LGPE.

Some of these have already been played in tours outside and I also support the idea that making this tour an MPL 2.0 is not a good idea

 

[Fylkir Pudin]

I've never really understood Chait's hate boner for threat, but I agree with most things Ticken said, it's definitely the format that I've had the most fun playing and building in the last year or so and its pretty consistently had some of the best games to watch imo. Personally I don't really care whether its regular or natdex if it is included but I'm signing up to play it regardless

 

[Jahkem]

While Chaitanya took a more aggressive approach to how this tour should be handled, I think he makes a great point about representation of the OMs in MWP. It does feel kind of, for lack of a better word, sloppy to change things almost last minute to rekindle interest in Mono OMs. Swapping out OMs for new ones that no one has invested in seems like throwing a bandaid on a huge crack in a broken dam. Even when I threw out my suggestions in my first post, I knew full well I was contributing to this hot fix that wouldn’t really address the main issue.

So, I propose we have MWP proceed normally with its current format and have this same discussion afterwards. This way, whatever OMs that are decided to potentially be added to MWP next time, we can put forth some effort in developing an interest and player base for the OMs added. Since it seems like the main argument against adding new OMs is that they’re vastly unexplored compared to the current ones.

For example, let’s say we do give Mono Doubles a genuine try because we decided it has the most potential. You can start out by making a poll for the community, encourage some discussion in a thread amongst ourselves. We can have Mono Doubles room tours spread throughout the year to test the waters. If there’s enough traction, there could be a small tour that can be ran on Smogon, or even dedicate a group of people to run it through Discord.

The point I’m trying to make is that there are different ways to develop and represent these OMs if we aren’t afraid to put in some effort and a little trial-and-error for them.

 

[sasha]

Can someone explain to me how you have to be a main to play threat? It's literally just c-team and anyone whos played draft or has like a semblance of effort to put in can play Threat. Literally you pull up a builder look at the same type you are playing and c-team it, there is no way you have to "main" the tier to be able to do that. If you aren't a creative builder then don't play it, really simple as that I guess. And I've seen some badass Mono builders, there's no way you need to be a savant to play or build Monothreat.

this got way too long and rambly so im hiding it with a spoiler tag!!11!!

If we do end up with monothreat, Natdex Mono threat may be better idk but it's something the mono forum hasn't seen at all. Again, Natdex mono has its own forum with its own tour. Natdex mono is essentially a separate community from monotype at this point. Keep them separate. Similarly keep natdex mono threat to natdex mono tours, not monotype tours. That being said get rid of threat. We've seen the same types multiple times over tours now, testing is nearly impossible within your own team considering you're lucky to have one player that plays threat forget about two. Natdex mono shouldn't be a substitute for it, it's a whole other tier.

I think the whole point of adding Natdex threat is to address your complaint but obviously correct me if I'm wrong. Natdex threat allows more mons and ideas to flourish within the tier and we're not gonna pretend like dexit doesn't make shit like threat boring as fuck after a while. We've been limited on mons all of SS and I'm sure other people can agree that it's made mons stale to a degree. Obviously I'm aware people enjoy the meta(s) now but when you have tiers jumping for joy getting a singular mon in their tier from shifts its kind of sad. That aside, just because Natdex mono is separate from official Monotype or however you wanna put it, I don't see how that's any reason to exclude it when imo it would make threat more enjoyable. You saying that everyone knows the tech in Threat and we've all seen the same types but then go around to say to not include Natdex which would actually fix some of this is a double bind at best. Not to mention you say most of the OMs mentioned aren't developed so don't include them but then say don't include Natdex because it's too developed and its own thing or own "tier" as you put it. Is bw mono not its own separate tier from ss mono? My extrapolation from it is that you are basically saying Natdex has its own community and players that don't want to associate with regular mono (which idt is really true at all). I don't really get your point here (like fr i just am missing it i guess), could you elaborate on that?

They also have 2 slots in natdexpl so like there is literally no reason they should be in this tour. They do their own thing.

Trust me, the NDM community (which is like a lot of the regular mono community anyway) gets a lot of shit for them having 2 slots. as an NDPL manager I can tell u the amount of people spurring about 2 monotype slots and "coinflip" tier is unbelievable. They don't really need more shit here tbf, I think we should be happy that their tier is getting attention regardless of if its cg mono or not, because it's still the most active branch of mono (besides cg mono) from what I've seen. Also NDMPL was a complete joke LMFAO like I think it's fine to give them spotlight in a tour that's gonna be inherently more competitive.

Doubles would kill this tour before it starts. There's been 0 mention of doubles mono or ubers mono or natdex mono threat in the mono community before this. Our second biggest tour! And people want to add tiers most people don't know existed lmaoo. That Mix and mega and cap were brought up is genuinely unbelievable.

I mean the point of the thread is to talk about the tour, not to suggest a tier and its suddenly in MWP. So yeah, I mean the fact that I saw LGPE Mono and Bo9 brought up in the same post is like borderline schizophrenic behavior but that doesn't mean it's going to be in the tour. I get that it was a troll post (if its not, then get help) but my point still stands. So like whatever not worth stressing about. also tie back to gray's point about doubles players getting involved with anything really doubles related, doubles mono could genuinely be cool and creative imo. I do agree that scrambling to get tiers a short time before the tour is not the brightest idea but

That being said, I do agree with most of Chait's sentiments about other oms (besides threat and NDM) and catering to the mono community. as someone whos been only playing Smogon since the beginning of SS and found a lot of interest in monotype, it's hard to try and learn oldgens. Catering to certain player bases like Ubers to play Mono Ubers for example just for them to fuck off of monotype after the tour doesn't feel good. I think that's where its most important to decide whether or not a tier is worth including ig? That's not me saying go with a full exclusive MPL 2.0 with old gens and replace MWP as was suggested. That would be boring as fuck to me, just giving a general suggestion to put some more attention on old gens at some point, doesn't need to be now. I think if anything we should keep the tiers now maybe with a swap or two and come to this talk afterwards because this is clearly not gonna get to a thorough conclusion.

we could perhaps use wcop tiers but as a regular draft tour this year, and forgo wcop. although wcop is fun, the regions based teams are annoying, however the metagames are a nice compromise between all oms and old gens. i believe splash suggested this in some way earlier as well. these are just my personal opinions btw, would like to hear what others think of this!

The tiers in Mono wcop were nice and seeing them here would be interesting again, maybe remove a third SS for the most desired OM outside of Ndex and Threat I suppose? that's just what I would prefer personally obviously but I'm sure there's at least one OM besides Threat and Ndex that's developed enough to include and keep the tour healthy and keep what seems to be a long time OM tradition? I think luisin's post just right above this has a great tier selection. With natdex threat over threat and the last tier being something more competitive. But I still think it's probably best to maybe keep MWP as is and revisit at a more appropriate time that isn't right before the tour.

 

[LuckyPiper]

WOAH this thread is filled with such hostility, what would your mothers say if she saw us all fighting amongst ourselves... We need to work together to make this tournament the best it can be! Now to business. Since I see every clown wants to include some fairy tale tier or 2 threat or 2 natdex? I decided dear god I need to post and save this tournament. Now Let me get into what really matters, the tiers of our favorite tour, MWP.

First things first I agree that these 5 tiers are the best
SS
SS
SM/ORAS/BW bo3 (please)
Natdex Mono
Threat

NOW as for the remaining 3 tiers. I'm sure you virgins will switch out my oldgen bo3 with a 3rd ss so I'm not gonna go too into stuff there. But let's look at some other cool tiers

MONO AMQ You may be asking how this is monotype related, but let me tell you. AMQ only has 1 kind of TV shows, Anime! (Mono) And you may not know this, but Pokemon is actually an anime and the openings are on the site, Thus it would not be straying too far from the heart of MWP, Pokemon. In conclusion AMQ does include both Mono and Pokemon, so we should include it and it would be racist not to.
(You can also play Mono Genre if that adds some more Monotype feel for you guys)

Next I have Mono StAAAbmons, While stabmons and AAA are both terrible tiers, apparently some people want them, I'm sure there's not more than 8 viable players for these so let's just combine them and accept that 1 of the slots in MWP is a circus.

As for the 8th and Final slot, I think Mono LC was actually fun to watch (also my friend Crashy plays it) and should be left alone.

I also think Tier Shift could actually be cool but I think I'll get made fun of if I support it. However on things like mono doubles, there is no way anyone wants that. I'd like to call in my best friend (doubles main) emma to support my case here (thanks sis).

All things considered the only realistic and fun decision is something like this

SS
SS
SM/ORAS/BW Bo3
Natdex Mono
Natdex Threat
Mono AMQ
StAAAbmons/Tiershift
LC


I originally wasn't going to post as I have been betrayed by my Mono Brethren but it's clear you're all lost without me, You're welcome.

 

[Fraolain]

I think everyone is underestimating how cool LGPE monotype would be as a slot.

I mean, honestly I never tested the tier in monotype and I don't think anyone ever did, BUT i always thought that it could be a very interesting metagame. Think about it : every type is good and has it's own archetype, there's no completly broken or metagame defining pokemon, plus we all know that pikachu is very cute.

The metagame itself is surprisingly stable, like I said every type has it's own niche and there's no such thing as a SS grass or a ORAS ghost in the tier. I'm aware that some types don't even have at least 6 pokemons, BUT i believe this should not be seen as a bad thing, but more as an opportunity to test out something new : Removing the specie clause, but only for 4 same pokemon in a team because there's no need for more, but to balance things out the first one have to be lvl 50, the 2nd at 49, 3rd 47 etc.. I don't know I just thought of this while writing and it sounds like a dope ass idea.

What I'm trying to say is that the tier, while it's not really explored, is probably the best thing we could dream of, we know it deep down in our heart, but we're too blind to see it. It clearly is the best opportunity to revive monotype and lgpe at the same time, if we trust the tier and put enough care and love into it.

So please consider it and give it a shot, you'll be amased by how well it does, I promise.

 

[Eien]

Quoting the important parts of what I said on Discord:

MWP was made bc I didn't want OMs to be in MPL and OMs were really integrated into mono at the time

after first year, torkool / tyke drove real OM interest throughout the gen leading into SS release, when of course I pushed more for prioritizing CG over any OM development

forcing OMs when nobody's investing time/effort into them seems like not adapting to what people are actually interested anymore in favor of tradition

The thread to decide which OMs Monotype as a tier wants to support should not be the thread to decide which OMs Monotype is playing in major tours.

There was nothing stopping the current Monotype leadership from supporting OMs like torkool and Tyke did back in the our day so that they are developed and ready for when the time comes for a major tour. And to think they helped develop OMs during a time when they had me, a TL that actively pushed OMs out of MPL. We ran our OMs in Mono BLT to cultivate talent (torkool himself came out of Mono BLT in fact) and focused on making BLT a gateway into MPL + MWP by having those players play those tiers. I see that in the last two years, things have changed and BLT has dropped OMs entirely. Playing underdeveloped tiers is fine when there hasn't been enough time (e.g. generation start), but when you've had most of this gen to develop Mono OMs and chose not to, you can't then turn around and be surprised there are those that question whether they should be in major tours.

The fact that it's unclear which OMs are even the most "official" should say everything. It should be obvious with that just how underdeveloped the OM scene has become compared to SM when we had genuine interest from our community and happily (for me: reluctantly) included them to MWP. We're even talking about OMs like Doubles, which really should indicate just how little effort has been put into these formats.

If people play these OMs and want to play them in MWP, then that's totally cool. However, don't feel beholden to our old decisions that were made with a very different community in a very different time. Monotype should change and grow with its community. If there just isn't the same connection between Monotype and OMs like there used to be, that's regrettable but simply the way things go when people come and go.

And before I go back to being gone for 6 months, I can't not call this out when I see it:

I speak for other Mono OM supporters when I say if we change this tournament to only have current and old gens, I am leaving the community.

Under scp and later me, Monotype always had a strong culture of including as many people as possible in decision making. The more inclusive you are, the more people are going to need to compromise. That's just how things are, you can't always have everything. Are you seriously threatening to quit because you can't get your way? Leadership is about compromise. How many things do you think I allowed because I knew it was what the community desperately wanted even though I didn't like it myself? I disliked OMs, so I pushed them out of MPL and compromised by creating MWP. I compromised further by keeping Monothreat in one last MPL before the shift to MWP. I gave you all of that because you gave me an old gens MPL.

Sometimes you have to stand up and not compromise, but that is not threatening to quit when the community relies upon you. That is being a leader and sharing your vision for the tier by guiding your community, talking with them, and showing them why you're right. scpinion disagreed with type bans in a time when type bans were favored by so many of even the top Monotype players and were completely removed; he and the council received so much flak for that heavily unpopular decision, and yet he and the rest of us worked endlessly to change that community opinion. Here we are 5 years later still without type bans. If you believe something is correct, it's your responsibility to convince others. It's not everyone else's responsibility to agree.

By threatening to quit like this, you force people to make the impossible decision between what they believe is right and keeping someone who, in spite of all of our differences, has been a huge boon to the community for years. Maybe they agree with you already, in which case there is no decision. But if they don't, how can they give up one of the most iconic members of Monotype for what can be considered such a minor decision? I strongly encourage you to remove this sentence and focus on actually valid arguments for or against OMs. I'm disappointed that this is what Monotype policy debates have devolved to.

And lastly, just for jokes because that was a bit heavy:

Eien — 10/08/2018
I have a cool idea
how about every 6 months
we change whether mwp or mpl is the old gens tour

torkool — 10/08/2018
so every tour is the old gens tour?