Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
I have a question. How does ability suppression work with abilities that activate when the user leaves the battlefield?
For instance, in this match, I have a player using a Miasmaw with Neutralizing Gas, which states the following:
Neutralizing Gas said:
The Pokemon releases a fume that robs other Pokemon of their abilities.
While the user is in play: The abilities of other Pokemon, except those with Neutralizing Gas, are ignored.
If a triggered effect of those abilities that would have triggered when their users entered play would be ignored in this way, instead put a Gas Marker on their user with the triggered effect, as well as the following effect:
● At the start of the round, if there are no Pokemon with Neutralizing Gas in play: The triggered effect stored on this marker triggers, then this marker is discarded.
The assumption that I had made, following a brief discussion on Discord, was that since the ability Zero to Hero was neutralized by Neutralizing Gas, the ability would not trigger upon switching out. However, a later Discord conversation with LouisCyphre indicated that the intended interaction was that Zero to Hero would activate, due to the Finizen no longer being an active piece on the board. What is the rules interaction here for the correct case?
For what it's worth, I would expect the current wording of Neutralizing Gas to also nix abilities such as Commander that activate while the user is inactive. When Miasmaw/Weezing is in play, all other Pokemon have their abilities ignored, not just other Pokemon that are in play.
I had a Detect sub that required a specific condition, and that condition was only fulfilled once (If [name] is to use Toxic THEN Detect and push back)
Why is the [NON-CONSECUTIVE] tag needed if a) Detect wasn't in the original instructions and b) the sub requirements were only fulfilled once?
I had a Detect sub that required a specific condition, and that condition was only fulfilled once (If [name] is to use Toxic THEN Detect and push back)
Why is the [NON-CONSECUTIVE] tag needed if a) Detect wasn't in the original instructions and b) the sub requirements were only fulfilled once?
Okay so, here in this case Zoroark's sub is checked first (start of step) and zoroark is set to use Detect. After that, Ninetale's sub is checked at the start of ninetale's turn so ninetales uses Calm mind and pushes back toxic. Ninetales is again set to use toxic so Zoroark's detect sub triggers and it tries to attempt detect again, but it fails.
Now the more confusing part : "Detect originally said: The move fails when attempted consecutively" This means that detect will be attempted consecutively if the conditions are met but will fail (just like this case). However now , it is changed to (it was changed after the round) "Detect cannot be attempted consecutively." This has an entirely different meaning. Here if a sub contains Detect without the "non cosecutive" tag, will still trigger non consecutively. Now the important part : If this was a patch, it will not affect the round and zoroark will use Detect->Detect->Calm Mind. However, if it was a rewording, then I have no clue what will be done so kindly wait for that.
Okay so, here in this case Zoroark's sub is checked first (start of step) and zoroark is set to use Detect. After that, Ninetale's sub is checked at the start of ninetale's turn so ninetales uses Calm mind and pushes back toxic. Ninetales is again set to use toxic so Zoroark's detect sub triggers and it tries to attempt detect again, but it fails.
Now the more confusing part : "Detect originally said: The move fails when attempted consecutively" This means that detect will be attempted consecutively if the conditions are met but will fail (just like this case). However now , it is changed to (it was changed after the round) "Detect cannot be attempted consecutively." This has an entirely different meaning. Here if a sub contains Detect without the "non cosecutive" tag, will still trigger non consecutively. Now the important part : If this was a patch, it will not affect the round and zoroark will use Detect->Detect->Calm Mind. However, if it was a rewording, then I have no clue what will be done so kindly wait for that.
No, really. I promise that's just a regular weekday for us here.
I think the game's suite of Toggle abilities could use looking at. They're a legacy feature to help insulate against matchup sackiness and abilities that are potentially able to backfire. For example, classically Poison Point was made a toggle in case of an opponent with Guts.
Frankly, I think that's kind of dumb design-wise. Whirlwind bullet-point analysis:
They introduce an extra point of friction when ordering. ("Which mode is On and which is Off, again?")
Mitigating an ability's potential downsides is a cop-out compared to making the upsides enticing, as was done with abilities like Flash Fire.
Abilities are more interesting both casually and competitively if they alter a Pokemon's match-up spread; rather than just having the ability turn off when it would hurt them.
Since we've committed to customizing effects for BBP, each of these double-edged abilities could be made to be double-edged in a way that's interesting and appropriate for the game.
This has been a point of friction stopping any work on abilities that need attention--Hustle, Weak Armor, Poison Point, and Poison Touch especially; each of these for various problems they suffer. For just one example; it's not very interesting or fun for Hustle to (essentially) read "Muscle Band gives you 4 power instead of 1; otherwise this ability does nothing."
For Poison Point and Poison Touch, do they need to have toggle effects at all? Guts mons will usually want to hold Flame Orb in which case those abilities would do nothing regardless, and in the rare case of a Poison Touch vs non-Orb Guts matchup simply don't use contact moves. Let's just make them match Flame Body/Static/whatever else and be done with it, or if we're buffing Poison Point/Touch extend those buffs to Flame Body/Static/whatever else.
EDIT: It has since been made clear to me that since Poison Point/Touch have weaker users than Flame Body/Static, we would want to buff the abilities to make up for it. Fair enough, I have no objection to this. But it isn't what I was originally responding to so I'm leaving my initial post up.
Figure it might be wise to make an "on our radar" post, since it's been a bit since we last did one.
Circuit:
It feels like everyone is on the same page that it's expected that May (exam week) and December (holiday) Circuits are unlikely to fire, and that's fine. I'd like to hear if players would like the arena carried over to the next one that DOES fire, or would like a new one drawn up each time. The minimum pod size is mainly a safeguard against match fixing, so it's not likely to budge. I would also like to hear thoughts on how it felt to play under harsh time constraints, whether the stakes/stress level was too high or low, and just whether it was enjoyable.
Ordering Rules (9.1-9.3):
To finish writing Substitution rules, rules on ordering will have to be finished. Especially, the parts of a set of Main Orders needs to be named more clearly. I'd be pleased if people would give their thoughts on the in-progress versions of 9.1 and 9.2. Rule 9.3 will be about additional parts of orders that aren't main orders or subs, such as "ordering otherwise", Mega Evolution, and so on.
Substitutions:
I had planned to fire May's Circuit with a test version of the rules we've drawn up, but thankfully I've been bought a bit longer to polish them. I may instead have some tower matches made with the in-progress rules before pushing them to live. To briefly preview what we've currently arrived at:
Substitutions, in this prototype, have a Timing Component, a Trigger Component, and a Result Component, in that order, much like they do now.
Each component will be made up of clauses, and each component will tell you how many clauses you're allowed to have. For example, we're tentatively allowing you to have up to 3 Result Clauses in your Result Component.
The Trigger Component still has two types of clause: Action Clauses and State Clauses. These are "clauses that observe a Pokemon's orders" and "clauses that observe anything else"; and are essentially the same as you know them now from Gen 8. The other Components only have one type of clause each (Timing Clauses and Result Clauses).
Each type of clause (Timing, Action, State, and Result) has its own affixes, or modifiers, to be used on those clauses. Again, this is mostly a name given to things people are already doing in their substitutions.
For example, a Timing Clause "At the start of the step" could have the Timing Affix "Once", to allow it to trigger only once this round.
The list of action groups (e.g. "Fire-type attack", "Protective move", etc) will be meaningfully expanded. This is important future-proofing for the game as Game Freak offers us more and more moves with functional copies. New action groups include "Protection-Bypassing Attack", "Ability-Disrupting Move", "Screen-Breaking Move", and more.
Negative action clauses as we know them (in the format "IF not X") are likely going away entirely. Instead, action clauses with similar functionality, such as "IF X, and not Y next step", will be provided as a replacement. This will help clean up the rules regarding "one action clause per Pokemon" and "no negative action clauses without a positive one".
The primary goal of this change is to make it easier to determine the legality of a set of Action Clauses. Instead of trying to figure out the logical equivalence, you can simply check the list. This is the Clause type undergoing the most change.
Other Clause types (Timing, State, Result) will try to more closely mimic the behavior players already use.
Timing Clauses will allow almost all of the currently accepted timings for substitutions.
State Clauses will try to provide a readable list of all of the parameters of Pokemon, of teams, of backpacks, and of the battlefield you could need to sub for (though some Facilities and Arenas may have to offer their own State Clauses, for parts not covered in the core rules).
Result Clauses will try to codify and include some of the advanced behaviors players have been including in their substitutions, such as "Lock step 3 and then push down", in a clearer way.
Toggles:
This will make good filler work between ordering work/sub rules and later large projects. We'll likely make moves to phase out Toggling and use "ordering otherwise" in its place (as per Sand Stream and friends), or reworking the toggle ability, on a case-by-case basis.
Anti-Pedant Rules:
Below is a sample of the new Anti-Pedant Rule. It's important that it be easy to write clear substitutions even if you veer off of the recommended format somewhat, so I would appreciate if everyone read this portion and gave their thoughts.
We've been deciding whether to have this rule somewhere earlier in the rulebook; or whether each relevent section (where players give orders, issue subs, switch, etc) would benefit from having their own rules about Plain Language. I'd also like input on this.
(no, this isn't the 24th sub-rule of 10.2. x is a placeholder letter.)
[10.2x] Plain Language Clause Aliases
Substitutions phrased using plain language can considered valid so long as its phrasing is logically equivalent to existing valid clauses. Thus, plain English aliases for valid clauses are permitted.
Furthermore, substitutions that mention game elements using a different tense of their name (e.g. referring to the Freeze condition as "Frozen"), or to game elements using a clearly understood synonym (e.g. referring to a Pokemon's Attack stage as its "Attack boosts") are legal.
As this rule helps to somewhat insulate substitutions against angle shooting or misspellings, this rule is sometimes said to be the "Anti-Pedant Clause."
Example: Liz's substitution reads, "IF you are Asleep THEN use Snore." There's no clause that checks for a status named "Asleep", but Liz's substitution clearly refers to the Sleep condition. Thus, her substitution is understood to mean "IF you have the Sleep condition THEN use Snore", rendering it legal.
Example: Madeliene's substitution reads, "IF Grimmsnarl is to use Faint Attack THEN use Counter." There's no action named "Faint Attack", but there is an existent move named "Feint Attack", which is clearly the move Madeliene intended to specify. Thus, her substitution is understood to refer to "Feint Attack", rendering it legal.
Example: Isaac's substitution reads, "IF Bruxish's Attack is boosted THEN use Foul Play." The word "boosted" has no rules meaning, but it is can be construed from context to mean "IF Bruxish has Attack stage boosts", "IF Bruxish has more Attack rank than their base rank", or both. However, because the exact meaning of the sub isn't clearly stated, the sub is illegal until further clarified.
If I remove Zamazenta-Crowned's Rusted Shield with Sticky Barb, will Zamazenta-Crowned revert to regular Zamazenta afterward, or will it remain as Zamazenta-Crowned?
If I remove Zamazenta-Crowned's Rusted Shield with Sticky Barb, will Zamazenta-Crowned revert to regular Zamazenta afterward, or will it remain as Zamazenta-Crowned?
some items are immutable. they can't be moved from their original holders by any means, except their own effects and effects that specifically mention immutable items or mention that item.
Mega Stones, including Red Orb and Blue Orb.
Z-Crystals.
Memories when held by Silvally.
Griseous Orb when held by any Giratina.
Vile Vial when held by any Venomicon.
Rusted Sword when held by any Zacian.
Rusted Shield when held by any Zamazenta.
on the dilemma of a new mon; I've been suggested these two and both are ones I like in general:
I got my hands on Chandelure for when I'm feeling angi and want damage, but with my 5TC I should pick one of these up. Or should I pick someone else up with my comp of Mimikyu, Hatterene, Zoroark-H, and Chandelure?
on the dilemma of a new mon; I've been suggested these two and both are ones I like in general:
I got my hands on Chandelure for when I'm feeling angi and want damage, but with my 5TC I should pick one of these up. Or should I pick someone else up with my comp of Mimikyu, Hatterene, Zoroark-H, and Chandelure?
Personally I like Dragonite a lot. Multiscale is an amazing ability and Dragonite gets a variety of moves too being an old schooler. It's stat spread is also decent (I am specially biased towards Dragonite just cuz it was really helpful during my fights.) Goodra-H on the other hand is good too. It has one of the other 2 secondary typings Goodra always wanted, other than that 90/7/11 is pretty good. It has 5 less HP than normal Goodra but has a way more respectable defense stat. I have 0 experience of using Goodra-H or Goodra so I don't really know how good Goodra-H will be in battles but it looks good on paper. (Goodra was pretty annoying to order against while I was battling City so ig you can say Goodra is pretty good sp def wall)
Conclusion both mons are great defensively, Dragonite however puts more offensive pressure with Dragon Dance and Multiscale and all that stuffs while Goodra is more bulky. (Personal pref : Dragonite)
dragonite is probably the strongest single mon you can buy, that can be used in all cases and most content, and that fits on almost any team.
even when fighting N with his ability-ignoring box dragons, dragonite has game against most of his backup pokemon.
goodra-h doesn't have nine gens of moves or a silly custom ability, but it's still a pseudolegend with a huge attacking movepool that can wall out basically every pure special attacker you're likely to face. goodra-h is also neutral to ice while dnite is immune or resistant to goodra-h's mere two weaknesses, so you could conceivably just get both.
dragonite is probably the strongest single mon you can buy, that can be used in all cases and most content, and that fits on almost any team.
even when fighting N with his ability-ignoring box dragons, dragonite has game against most of his backup pokemon.
goodra-h doesn't have nine gens of moves or a silly custom ability, but it's still a pseudolegend with a huge attacking movepool that can wall out basically every pure special attacker you're likely to face. goodra-h is also neutral to ice while dnite is immune or resistant to goodra-h's mere two weaknesses, so you could conceivably just get both.
