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1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.
2. Discuss Sharpedo's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Sharpedo?
3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Sharpedo in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!
4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.
I used Sharpedo in probably 200 or so battles this round so... yeah I like him, but I'm not sure I can think of a better definition of glass cannon. If I got all the priority removed, there is a decent chance I had won the game, bar some Hydro pump miss.
Mix is best, obviously an opinion, but I think most agree. Protect, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Crunch works pretty damn good.
But in the same way as Durant, Sharpedo has a couple "complete" counters (Poliwrath and Throh are golden except if they switch in to EQ) and plenty of checks depending on what set it runs. Most notably... well pretty much any priority. (unboosted bullet punch and aqua jet won't OHKO, but after some LO and hazards even those will probably do)
Bulky waters do pretty good against almost all sets and tangrowth is great vs the physical sets.
He is currently my favorite late game cleaner and does pretty good against all styles of play (except TR)
On the opposite view, I do take extra caution when the opponent has sharpedo. I make sure to protect my priority users and I try to play conservatively until I know if it is mixed or physical. If the opponent got my priority and bulky water, sharpedo usually could finish me off.
In terms of a metagame shift... I personally think Hitmonchan usage is only this high for Sharpedo, but chan is a great spinner/ BU user anyway so that hardly makes a case for obscure counters.
Also a lot of fast pokemon carry substitute. Sub on the predicted protect and then you beat Sharpedo. Although this was getting easier to counter act as it became more common... attack on the predicted sub and out speed the next turn anyway
My opinion Best late game cleaner in RU (in terms of ease of use and power) but not broken.
I'm basically going to agree with lars and say that Sharpedo is not broken. Pratically any priority can kill sharpedo even Honchkrows sucker punch does 80%. There are a few hard counters to sharpedo such as poliwrath, specially defensive ferroseed (has to watch out for hp fire though), tangrowth is an excellent counter to the physical set and alomomola which can toxic stall it or get burn with scald. . Yes there are 2 main sets you have to worry about, the physical or mix set, but both sets have generally the same counter such as poliwrath and alomomola.
The mix pedo set that lars posted above I believe is the best set for the mixpedo. With Ice beam helping you get through defensive behemoths such as Tangrowth and Mandibuzz. I believe Mixpedo 2hkoes Mandibuzz after SR but don't quote me on this. The downside is that hydro pump misses come at costly times.
I don't think Sharpedo is broken, it's just a very good late game sweeper. It lacks the raw power to break through defensive teams (can't OHKO Tangrowth, Slowking, Miltank, Qwilfish, Ferroseed, etc), and priority from the likes of Hitmonchan and CB Entei prevent it from sweeping through offensive teams easily. I wouldn't mind if it was banned, though, because banning it will make offensive teams be much more viable and diverse, since they won't be forced to have a priority user. Additionally, while it can't OHKO walls, it can easily 2HKO them, should Sharpedo predict the switch correctly.
In my opinion, neither of Sharpedo's common sets, MixPedo or Physical Sharpedo are even remotely broken. The primary reason for this is because of Sharpedo's frailty on both ends of the spectrum (Sharpedo takes considerable damage even from uninvested Scalds) and because its high Base Attack is offset with its physical STAB having low Base Power.
Physical Sharpedo is countered by many Pokemon and both sets are countered by Alomomola, Ferroseed, Poliwrath and Throh, with none of them being 2HKO'd by MixPedo's moves. Sure, somebody can use an unorthodox Sharpedo with one of HP Fire/(Grass or Electric) or Zen Headbutt to beat the Pokemon mentioned above, but the cost is that its damage output is stifled against everything else. Sharpedo does not have a brilliant Special Attack stat, and it is best used in conjunction with high Base Power moves like Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Using other mvoes just decreases its usefulness overall. Imsomnia Honchkrow differs from Moxie Honchkrow in the sense that it is a wallbreaker, and not meant to survive for an extended period of time. A MixedSharpedo with a non-standard set is just an inferior version of the standard set that is easier to deal with since more Pokemon (mostly Grass types) have less to fear from it.
Sharpedo is a not at all a threat to stall teams, since it just doesn't have the power to break through them. Balanced teams usually have something that can take a hit and KO it back, and offensive teams usually have priority, (Sharpedo with its weak defense takes huge damage even from resisted hits) Substitute, or might have a fast Choice Scarf user come in at the same time as Sharpedo, which will still KO Sharpedo after a Protect. It can be an effective late game sweeper, but I don't think that Sharpedo excels exceedingly well at this.
To be honest, I'm not even sure why Sharpedo is even suspect. If that doesn't tell you my opinion already, then I'm not sure what will. Anyway, let's get right down to it. Sharpedo is not broken. As mentioned before, it has common counters such as Ferroseed, Poliwrath, and Tangrowth (I know it dies to Ice Beam but you really should be using Earthquake anyway).
It it also very susceptible to priority, as others have mentioned. Both Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan can KO with Life Orb Mach Punch. Honchkrow Sucker Punch does 80%. You know it's really weak when it takes 80% from a resisted attack. CB Entei Extremespeed also dispatches it as well. To end the priority piece, Jolly CB Scyther Quick Attack does between 63% to 74%, meaning that Sharpedo has to be careful coming in with Stealth Rock and layers of Spikes, as it can be easily revenge killed.
What I'd like to bring up next is Sharpedo's overreliance on Protect, coupled with the fact that people don't know how to use Sharpdeo properly. You do not use Protect when you outspeed and can easily get the KO. The sheer number of people using Sharpedo that always Protect on the first turn is ridiculous. I have been using Hitmonchan for most of the round, and I love nothing more when I get to switch in for free because Sharpedo used Protect.
I can see how it would walk all over offensive teams, which are all over the ladder right now, but in my mind Sharpedo is not broken. Maybe that will change, but for now I don't think it's likely. This is not a difficult decision for me at all.
If Sharpedo can easily sweep your team, so can many other Pokemon. Without boosting moves or a monstrous attack stat, Sharpedo isn't going to sweep you unless you are being consistently outplayed and get swept like you would any other sweeper. If you don't carry something with priority in this metagame, you have to rethink your strategy, unless of course you carry something bulky enough to take Sharpedo's attacks.
Sharpedo is best played as a late-game sweeper. Many people use Sharpedo incorrectly and try to use it early-game, which usually ruins its chances at a sweep. That being said, Sharpedo is easily taken care of through priority in the form of Mach Punch or Extremespeed. In addition, its defenses are so weak that it gets destroyed by basically any decently powerful attack. Sharpedo is far from broken in RU. Stall teams, such as those similar to Malvira's, can also take care of Sharpedo quite easily (I know this because I use Sharpedo, and have faced Malvira quite a few times).
Sharpedo is best played as a late-game sweeper. Many people use Sharpedo incorrectly and try to use it early-game, which usually ruins its chances at a sweep. That being said, Sharpedo is easily taken care of through priority in the form of Mach Punch or Extremespeed from entei and hitmonchan In addition, its defenses are so weak that it gets destroyed by basically any decently powerful attack. Sharpedo is far from broken in RU. Stall teams, such as those similar to Malvira's, can also take care of Sharpedo quite easily (I know this because I use Sharpedo, and have faced Malvira quite a few times).
i agree that sharpedo isnt broken, sharpedo needs major hazard support to gain certain Koes, and things such as poliwrath and ferroseed outright wall it. Hitmonchan is incredibly popular, as is entei, partially due to sharpedo. speed boost makes it harder to revenge as well, but even honchkrow's sucker punch koes after SR and 2 turns of LO damage. As omicron said defensive teams have an easy time dealing with sharpedo. sharpedo is a big threat to trick room, but sharpedo's attacks werent strong enough to break through my teams bulky 99% of the time and protect is set up bait.
So, there isn't many pro-ban Sharpedo posts, and the reasoning for "do not ban" is the same for everyone, so time to spice up this discussion with a pro-ban Sharpedo post! This is just a taste of how much damage Sharpedo can do.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 40HP/0SpDef Hitmonchan (Neutral): 78% - 92% (196 - 231 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
188Atk Life Orb Sharpedo (Neutral) Crunch vs 248HP/144Def Slowking (Neutral): 79% - 93% (312 - 368 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 4HP/0SpDef Sceptile (Neutral): 90% - 107% (256 - 304 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 45% chance to OHKO.
188Atk Life Orb Sharpedo (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/0Def Levitate Uxie (Neutral): 68% - 81% (242 - 290 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
188Atk Life Orb Sharpedo (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/136Def Cofagrigus (+Def): 56% - 67% (182 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 0HP/0SpDef Aerodactyl (Neutral): 179% - 211% (540 - 638 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
188Atk Life Orb Sharpedo (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/4Def Eviolite Roselia (Neutral): 62% - 74% (190 - 225 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 252HP/0SpDef Tangrowth (Neutral): 96% - 113% (390 - 460 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 80% chance to OHKO.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252HP/216SpDef Gallade (+SpDef): 41% - 49% (141 - 169 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
"Wow, that's a lot of damage! But, Sharpedo is so frail that it usually can't get a hit off. =/" Well, look at some of those calcs more closely. Sharpedo is usually seen on spike stacking teams, and because most of the Pokemon listed here are more defensively oriented, I think it's safe to say that it shouldn't be too hard to get one layer of spikes down. Just one. All of a sudden, some Pokemon can easily be checked off that list. Now wait, Sharpedo is a late-game sweeper! That means the Pokemon will probably be worn down a bit before that, so let's cross off Pokemon off that list that take 70% minimum from one of Sharpedo's attacks and have no recovery. Wow, not that many Pokemon left. Cross off stuff like Uxie, who people usually sac earlier in the game to more offensive teams, and the list is incredibly small. Look, it's not that hard to be able to position yourself to where you just sweep the opposing team. It's not like Sharpedo has to set up to be offensively threatening. It just has to find a time to get in, maybe on a double switch or when something dies, then your opponent is stuck in a tough position, and then maybe play a little prediction game with using Protect or attacking.
Sharpedo isn't really focused on sweeping through more defensively oriented teams anyways, a ton of Pokemon commonly found on offense are swiftly OHKO'd by Sharpedo;
Things in top 50 of 1200 stats that are just plain OHKO'd:
Entei, Aerodactyl, Sigilyph, Rotom, Moltres, Butterfree, Claydol, Acceglor, Aggron, Steelix, Scolipede, Lilligant, Durant, Archeops, Honchkrow, Absol, Omastar, Manectric, Combusken, Regirock, Stunfisk, Rhydon, Gligar
Wow, that's a big list. Hey, wait a minute, there's always priority!!! Well, priority is easily abusable. Let's list all the common priority in RU:
Hitmonchan's Mach Punch
Entei's Extremespeed
Spiritomb's Sucker Punch
Feraligatr's Aqua Jet
Honchkrow's Sucker Punch
Absol's Sucker Punch
Kabutop's Aqua Jet
Sharpedo resists most of that priority. While it doesn't like taking powerful resisted priority hits like Honchkrow and Absol's Sucker Punch, it can take them in a pinch. I remember using a set with some more defense EV's over attack once and it was pretty effective - it's amazing how many people rely on priority to beat Sharpedo. It's also interesting that Cofagrigus can take advantage of the two biggest priority users in RU. SubSplit Rotom can take advantage of Entei, Hitmonchan, and Honchkrow, but it has to be a bit more careful.
The other check that people like to talk about a lot is Ferroseed and Poliwrath. Well, if we look at the 1,200 stats, Ferroseed and Poliwrath are very far down the list. Not only that, but they both lack reliable recovery (especially Ferroseed), and it's hard for them to stay alive for the whole match unless you're willing to sac Pokemon to other threats just to keep them alive. RestTalk Poliwrath is a bit different, but that's just one Pokemon, and we all know how unreliable that strategy can be sometimes.
So basically, this is why I think Sharpedo is broken:
The fact that Sharpedo can easily overwhelm an opposing team with its fast, powerful STAB's make it an amazing late-game sweeper. It doesn't have to set up to be very powerful, nor does it have to be locked into a choice move to be able to easily 2HKO most Pokemon in RU. Offense teams are forced to stack priority on their team just to keep Sharpedo in check, (other threats, too, but Sharpedo is a big reason why) and they can't even switch into Sharpedo without being OHKO'd or almost dead. Sure, Sharpedo may have to go through some prediction wars sometimes, but that's alright; it can just be saved until late-game, where it functions best, but it still is an effective wall breaker early game if you use it right. Sharpedo just needs a little prior damage and maybe some hazards before it can quickly sweep through a team with set-up that has little risk.
My opinion on Sharpedo is that it should not be banned. Sharpedo is a good Pokemon and has a nice niche in RU and my avatar. In my opinion, its best set is:
The mix set isn't walled by physically defensive walls such as Tangrowth, Qwilfish, and Spiritomb. However, it is walled by a few things, mainly Ferroseed and Poliwrath and is checked by stuff like Lanturn or Rotom-C. Sharpedo is also worn down very quickly due to its horrible 70/40/40 defenses and Life Orb recoil. For example, Sharpedo takes 68.32 - 80.42% from Steelix's EQ. Priority also hinders Sharpedo's ability to sweep. Extremespeed from LO Entei OHKOs (95.01 - 112.09%). Feraligatr's Aqua Jet does 29.18 - 34.51% (which it doesn't need to use most of the time since it can take 1 hit). Another good check to Sharpedo is Trick Room, since Speed Boost will become disadvantageous.
In my opinion, one of Sharpedo's biggest flaws is the lack of attack boosting moves. Even though Sharpedo only has two solid counters, it can't OHKO everything. This allows something like a TR + NP Cofagrigus to take a Crunch (66.25 - 78.75%) and OHKO Sharpedo with HP Fighting. This means that if Sharpedo gets a kill, it will most likely not get another without switching out and coming back in later. This results in a loss of HP for Sharpedo since it will likely be taking damage from hazards on its next switch-in. If Sharpedo wants to specifically beat its counters, it will need to give up a moveslot which will let other things counter Sharpedo.
In short, Sharpedo will be taking lots of damage from priority and most things that can survive an attack. If you choose not to use LO, or you change a move to counter a certain Pokemon (ex. Ice Beam -> HP Fire), Sharpedo will lose necessary power.
I haven't lost to a Sharpedo once this round, mostly because it is extremely frail and lacks the power to OHKO a majority of the tier. At the beginning of this round, I ran an offensive team and used Crawdaunt to check Sharpedo lol. Sharpedo is very easily defeated and as a result, should not be banned.
Also sorry if something didn't make sense. I was really tired when posting this lol. If you have a specific argument against me please post or talk to me in #rarelyused! Otherwise, I'm pretty convinced that Sharpedo should stay in RU.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Ice Beam vs 252HP/0SpDef Tangrowth (Neutral): 96% - 113% (390 - 460 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 80% chance to OHKO.
184SpAtk Life Orb Sharpedo (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252HP/216SpDef Gallade (+SpDef): 41% - 49% (141 - 169 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
"Wow, that's a lot of damage! But, Sharpedo is so frail that it usually can't get a hit off. =/" Well, look at some of those calcs more closely. Sharpedo is usually seen on spike stacking teams, and because most of the Pokemon listed here are more defensively oriented, I think it's safe to say that it shouldn't be too hard to get one layer of spikes down. Just one. All of a sudden, some Pokemon can easily be checked off that list. Now wait, Sharpedo is a late-game sweeper! That means the Pokemon will probably be worn down a bit before that, so let's cross off Pokemon off that list that take 70% minimum from one of Sharpedo's attacks and have no recovery. Wow, not that many Pokemon left. Cross off stuff like Uxie, who people usually sac earlier in the game to more offensive teams, and the list is incredibly small. Look, it's not that hard to be able to position yourself to where you just sweep the opposing team. It's not like Sharpedo has to set up to be offensively threatening. It just has to find a time to get in, maybe on a double switch or when something dies, then your opponent is stuck in a tough position, and then maybe play a little prediction game with using Protect or attacking.
Even with hazards, you're calcs still prove that Sharpedo can't really "sweep through a team" without severely weakening it first, which is just the same as every other sweeper. Look at Magmortar. Magmortar can Flame Charge and deal even more impressive damage than Sharpedo. You're 2HKOes dont matter because you aren't wall breaking, you're trying to sweep, and Sharpedo is so frail that you will undoubtedly faint after failing to OHKO.
You made a good case for using Sharpedo as a wall breaker though.
DTC said:
Sharpedo isn't really focused on sweeping through more defensively oriented teams anyways, a ton of Pokemon commonly found on offense are swiftly OHKO'd by Sharpedo;
Things in top 50 of 1200 stats that are just plain OHKO'd:
Entei, Aerodactyl, Sigilyph, Rotom, Moltres, Butterfree, Claydol, Acceglor, Aggron, Steelix, Scolipede, Lilligant, Durant, Archeops, Honchkrow, Absol, Omastar, Manectric, Combusken, Regirock, Stunfisk, Rhydon, Gligar
You forgot to mention that Sharpedo still loses to Entei, Scarf Rotom, and weakened Sharpedo gets destroyed by Honchkrow or Absol. The rest of those Pokemon you are required to Protect and give a 50/50 chance for them to switch to a counter (which every team over 1200 has).
DTC said:
Wow, that's a big list. Hey, wait a minute, there's always priority!!! Well, priority is easily abusable. Let's list all the common priority in RU:
Hitmonchan's Mach Punch
Entei's Extremespeed
Spiritomb's Sucker Punch
Feraligatr's Aqua Jet
Honchkrow's Sucker Punch
Absol's Sucker Punch
Kabutop's Aqua Jet
Sharpedo resists most of that priority. While it doesn't like taking powerful resisted priority hits like Honchkrow and Absol's Sucker Punch, it can take them in a pinch. I remember using a set with some more defense EV's over attack once and it was pretty effective - it's amazing how many people rely on priority to beat Sharpedo. It's also interesting that Cofagrigus can take advantage of the two biggest priority users in RU. SubSplit Rotom can take advantage of Entei, Hitmonchan, and Honchkrow, but it has to be a bit more careful.
This is way to dismissive. Priority absolutely rapes Sharpedo, and you later bring up Sharpedo's use of Life Orb as a pro, but these Pokemon also use Life Orb and are way more threatening than Sharpedo (at least Entei and Honchkrow are harder to switch into).
All in all, I think almost all of your arguments can be further applied to other sweepers who either sweep more easily due to speed, power, and bulk. Sharpedo has one of those, a bit of another, but it's just not enough.
I have slightly mixed feelings about sharpedo (no pun intended). This guy either makes or breaks offense. It's really tough to stop this guy if you're running an offensive team, simply because getting lots of speed for free is enough to make any offensive player livid. It doesn't take long to soften up an offensive team till it's vulnerable to a sharpedo sweep, especially with the lack of offensive pokemon with a decent special defense, lilligant and hitmonchan are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head . I think he's probably one of the largest reasons why offense isn't used more/why it always has to run hitmonchan.
Offense out of the way, though, he is actually not too hard to stop, with hitmonchan being omnipresent and things like ferroseed being popular. He's also a free circle throw for poliwrath, so bulky offense and stall handles him well.
Overall, he has a very large impact on heavy offense, but other than that, I don't think he has a large enough presence to be deemed broken.
I have slightly mixed feelings about sharpedo (no pun intended). This guy either makes or breaks offense. It's really tough to stop this guy if you're running an offensive team, simply because getting lots of speed for free is enough to make any offensive player livid. It doesn't take long to soften up an offensive team till it's vulnerable to a sharpedo sweep, especially with the lack of offensive pokemon with a decent special defense, lilligant and hitmonchan are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head . I think he's probably one of the largest reasons why offense isn't used more/why it always has to run hitmonchan.
Offense out of the way, though, he is actually not too hard to stop, with hitmonchan being omnipresent and things like ferroseed being popular. He's also a free circle throw for poliwrath, so bulky offense and stall handles him well.
Overall, he has a very large impact on heavy offense, but other than that, I don't think he has a large enough presence to be deemed broken.
Offense is the most seen playstyle in RU. What kind of HO team loses to Sharpedo? All of them should pack a priority move which will quickly wear down Sharpedo's health. Even though its mixed set is the best, it still can't OHKO a lot of common Pokemon found on HO teams such as: Rotom-C, Ludicolo, Feraligatr, Hitmonchan, Cofagrigus, and Druddigon. Sharpedo will also most likely Protect on its first turn since it can't take any hits, giving you a free switch to a choice scarfer like Manectric.
Sharpedo is handled by offense, balanced, and stall. I ran all 3 this round and haven't had a problem with Sharpedo.
If Sharpedo is being used as cleanup (which I use it as, it has difficulting muscling through Ferroseed without HP Fire and Gastrodon without HP Grass), it really isn't broken.
If the Pokemon is able to crash through a team when its checks are removed and everything below 60% health, great! This goes for every decent offensive Pokemon too! However, it simply cannot break through bulky Pokemon like Miltank, Ferroseed, and Poliwrath. It has a few checks, namely bulky Hitmonchan and Tangrowth (if Sharpedo does not carry Ice Beam) / Lanturn (slashed because Lanturn wins against Sharpedo if it carries Ice Beam instead of EQ, Tangrowth wins vice-versa).
So I'd like to say that I do not consider Sharpedo broken in this metagame. It's a frightening cleaner which does its job very well, however it is just that: a cleaner. It cannot muscle through teams by itself due to its 4 moveslot syndrome and the fact that it needs to run different EV spreads to get past different checks.
This is more a case of "remove Pokemon X then Pokemon Y sweeps the tier" than a Pokemon being truly overpowering.
Thanks for the discussion everyone, and with a 1-1-7 vote, Sharpedo was deemed not broken, and probably won't be considered for suspect status for a time to come barring major metagame shifts.
