Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty

[Molk]

Song suggested by user: HotNCold

song forced into op by me, atomicllamas ;o

Alright, so now that RU's finally gone official with the introduction of the june stats (which can be seen here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/). We're gonna need a new NP: thread for metagame discussion in our newly official metagame! Looking at the usage stats, RU only got one drop (and it's our first drop for RU at all in over a year, we haven't had a single drop since Nidoqueen and Escavalier dropped at the start of BW2), but it's a very good drop in the form of Jolteon. Jolteon is known for being a fast and powerful offensive threat that can easily outspeed the entirety of the unboosted metagame, grab momentum with Volt Switch, and clean up easily with Choice Specs/Life Orb Thunderbolts when resistances to Electric-type moves are weakened and eliminated. Jolteon's ability to force switches and excellent Speed stat also makes a subpass set quite interesting. As for Pokemon that are leaving RU, we lost Smeargle and Medicham to OU, but neither of those Pokemon were really *that* notable in the current metagame imo, so we really shouldn't be seeing any major metagame shifts coming from that.

Also, with an official tier comes official suspects, and RU's going to be starting one right away on a Pokemon that's been pretty controversial ever since the very start of the XY Edition of the tier: Froslass. The suspect ladder should be put up ASAP and the suspect test will end exactly 2 Weeks after the date of this post at 11:59 PM EST, and the required rating to vote will be 2400 COIL (this might change in the future depending on how much the suspect ladder inflates) so use the time that you have to get reqs and discuss the suspect at hand. i'd prefer anyone who's gotten the reqs in particular to participate in this discussion, even just a little bit. I may or may not be laddering in the test myself, time/laziness permitting.

Because i know some people get confused on why smogon tiers suspect the Pokemon they do, the ru council and i decided to make a little blurb on the basic reasoning on why we're suspecting Froslass, and will most likely do this for all future suspects. Whether the traits we list in this blurb make Froslass bannable or not is up to you, but i'd at least advise anyone who's confused on why the Pokemon is being suspected to read the paragraph in the hide tags below, even if you still don't agree you'll at least know where we're coming from.

Reqs have been changed, see this post for details

Why is this Pokemon being suspected?

Froslass has mainly been suspected because while it is not a huge offensive or defensive threat, the amount of support Froslass is able to supply its teammates is so incredible that its support alone puts many of the threatening Pokemon in RU at the moment over the edge. This is because Froslass's combination of excellent Speed, Destiny Bond, Cursed Body and access to Spikes allows Froslass to quickly get at worst one layer of Spikes up against a majority of teams (and when well played, it will often get two or even three due to the mindgames that Froslass is able to create via Destiny Bond and Cursed Body), and due to its other characteristics, Froslass is also able to deter opponents from removing the Spikes that it sets up. Froslass's Ghost typing, for example, prevents Rapid Spin users from successfully removing Spikes until Froslass has been removed, and access to Ice Beam and Taunt lets Froslass effectively shut down most Defog users (for example, one of the most common defog users, Gligar, is 4x weak to Ice Beam), as many of them take significant damage from Ice Beam and Taunt guarantees that they will not be able to pull off a Defog when Froslass is in play. Because of these traits, Froslass can consistently get up multiple layers of Spikes, slow down or outright stop attempts at hazard removal, mostly on its own, and can even get a free kill once it's done setting up as many Spikes as possible, making it an incredibly good support pokemon with suspect level capabilities. Even though Froslass often dies early in the match (although smart players won't let it die right away if they don't need to sacrifice it), it will almost always do after doing its job - that is, setting up multiple layers of Spikes - and for this reason, we feel Froslass is suspect worthy.

Real NP song dedicated to Jolteon: http://imustaccelerate.tumblr.com/

Similar Pokemon: Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D in the BW OU metagame.

 

[Expulso]

first!!1!1!1?
I'd like to share my opinions here.

There are a number of factors that have led to Froslass being a great and possibly broken Pokemon in the current meta. First of all, its Speed is a very fast 110, leaving it outsped by only the mediocre Ambipom, Cinccino (Rock Blast!), Jolteon, and various scarfers, as well aso other less viable Pokemon like Ninjask, Accelgor and Electrode. However, Speed is not the absolute test of viability. It has a very cool (pardon the pun!) typing in Ice / Ghost, which lets it spinblock and beat common Defoggers with a STAB Ice Beam. However, the blessings don't end there! Froslass gets Spikes, which it can nearly guarantee a layer of per match. If that weren't enough for you, it gets Taunt, letting it be an even more effective lead and control the hazard meta even more. Taunt also stops attempts to get past its Focus Sash with Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, etc. Finally, it is gifted with the amazing Destiny Bond, which in conjunction with its Speed lets it reliably take down the opposing lead. It can also run Switcheroo with a Scarf or Specs to cripple opposing leads, though this is very gimmicky.

So what makes this good Pokemon broken? If you read the above paragraph, you'll notice a few things about Froslass. It can set up hazards, stop the opponent from putting up Hazards, and take down a Pokemon almost always! This means that Froslass can immediately put one team at an advantage, with Spikes on the opponent's side, no hazards on your side and a dead Pokemon on the opponent's team. This is almost an unfair advantage, as hazard removal isn't very easy in this fast-paced meta. In addition, Froslass is build to die as a suicide lead; with Destiny Bond, Froslass can harm the opposing team's synergy by taking out part of a core. It's plain uncompetitve and needs to go.

Thank you.

 

[astromund]

RIP in peace Medi, may you find success spamming High Jump Killmyself in Aegislash's playground ;__;

 

[atomicllamas]

Damn it Molk this was our one chance to make Hello Kitty the np song and honor Avril Lavigne as the voice of our generation >:|.

Anyways I definitely welcome Jolteon to the tier, as I think one thing this tier was lacking in was good Electric-types. Though, while Jolteon is better than Heliolisk stat wise (faster, stronger, and even bulkier) it's ability is slightly worse, and the typing is a mixed bag. Heliolisk will still have some good use thanks to access to much better coverage moves. Jolteon does have some fun sets to work with though too, I'm thinking that outside of an all out attacker, that a sub pass set could be pretty cool on Jolteon.

Molk Edit: KA KA KA KAWAII

Also I guess the server has been updated so you all should be able too use Jolteon on the ladder now B).

 

[ebeast]

HELLO KITTY

 

[Mew2]

Poor Rhyperior he was an inch away from being UU better luck next time Rock/Ground friend

 

[Ununhexium]

Dang I want to be able to vote but I'm not sure I can get reqs.

Froslass is an awesome mon. She can annoy the crap out of many pokemon and set up spikes like a mofo. Personally I don't find it broken, but that may be just me.

I'm excited to see jolteon for two reason: jolteon is cool, and itakes rhyperior even better (not to mention rhyperior can handle froslass decently well as a sort of anti lead.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

I have the uncommon opinion with this one, as I personally do not believe Froslass should be banned.

Froslass is a very prominent spike stacking suicide lead. It can guarantee at least 1 layer of spikes and a kill, assuming you don't play it like an absolute git. Nothing even gets relatively close to outclassing it in its role, and that's why Froslass is so good.

However, a real question in this suspect is this: Is Froslass' role in RU broken?

The main detrimental factor to Froslass is being completely one dimensional. Froslass brings almost no offensive pressure to its check/counters (or anything tbh), and its defenses are absolutely unusable. If you see someone using anything other that hazard suicide lead Froslass, you have a free win. Along with this, Froslass' set up hazard, spikes, can be easily cleared by the plethora of bulky flying type defoggers, such as Golbat and Gligar. Froslass has a variety of flaws on its own, being very prone to getting prio taunted by the likes of Liepard/Whimsicott, weakness to common scarfers, and a general priority weakness. Multi hit moves can also cost it any set up opportunity, which is why the likes of Rock Blast Rhyperior and Cincinno in general are around.

All in all, I personally don't believe the pros outweigh the cons of Froslass to such an extent to where it should be banned. Froslass is a very good pokemon in an RU environment, but I will certainly be voting no ban once I have met Reqs

 

[Molk]

By the way guys, suspect ladder is up thanks to The Immortal


EDIT: by the way if this thread turns too heated i'm going to be moving all froslass related posts to a seperate thread.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

The main reason I'm looking forward to Jolteon is 130 BASE SPEED. Seriously this is insanely helpful for a tier where everything fast is stuck at like 105-110, and for outspeeding them you previously had Swellow, Sceptile, Cinccino, and Accelgor. Jolteon adds onto that mix and its faster than the first 3 fastmons. While Jolteon suffers from competition from Heliolisk, who has better coverage, Jolteon still gets Signal Beam (Grass-type coverage, except for Amoonguss) so it isn't completely worthless in the way of coverage. It also gives us an offensive Electric type which was pretty much limited to Heliolisk and Magneton before this, and the former was a wallbreaker instead of a sweeper. It can also pretty much guarantee the first hit and use Volt Switch.

I don't think it will make too much of an impact, but it should be a good addition nonetheless.

 

[EnerG218]

God dammit ladder is down atm :( we can just blame The Immortal for now

 

[TheTraininator]

Holy shit, we got Jolteon? Fucking finally, why were people even using it in UU when Raikou and Mega Manetric exist? Whatever. Heliolisk isn't going to like the competition, but it definitely has a lot of advantages over Jolteon to allow both to be viable, *cough*Surf*cough*.

 

[trc]

people know my thoughts on froslass already i think it's broken and it needs to go asap

 

[Srn]

Froslass is ghey pls kill immediately.
It's insanely hard for defensive teams to stop this thing from getting up 2 or more hazards, which is what i hate about it so much, since I tend to lean toward defensive in this tier for some reason.
I would like for my rhyperior to stay above 50% and not have to just rock blast. Not to mention fkng dbond.
Combo of taunt, icy wind, dbond, ugh this thing gets up hazards so efficiently its simply unfair. pls kill

 

[MikeDawg]

I'm still torn on lass. After using it quite a bit, I have come to appreciate it more, but I've still never found the extra layer or so to be that important. I think that that differentiating factor between lass and other spike mons like accelgor is the fun utility in destiny bond. (ex. if rhyperior leads against lass, it can 1hko with rock blast if it spikes, but if it dbonds, rhyp is out for the game. If rhyp switches out to scout dbond, though, lass can get hazards, etc.)

It should probs go. Cincinno is fun tho!

 

[RufflesPro]

I second Worltour, with Jolteon in, you can finally outspeed Zoroark and shit like that without having speed ties.
Not only that but that Specs set helps wall break Slowking and Doublade, and with chip damage + SR even Aromatisse. HP Ice can catch gligar too. This is gonna be fuuuuuuuuun.

I hate lass, always gets 1-2 layers of spikes on me because I use Druddigon >.> So hope it'll be out.

 

[EonX]

Ok, guess I'll give my thoughts on things:

Jolteon drop: This is really fucking necessary. The only offensive Electric-types we had were Heliolisk, Rotom-C, Magneton, and lolEvire. Considering that Rotom-C is almost strictly a revenge killer while Magneton is primarily a wallbreaker, the need for another fast Electric-type was high. Jolteon fills this well without being too powerful for RU. It's a fantastic fit imo. It lacks the coverage of Heliolisk, but does cool shit like outpace Cinccino, Swellow, Sceptile, and Durant (without the need for a Speed tie) while also being a badass and outpacing Adamant Choice Scarf Braviary.... NATURALLY. Its coverage is kinda weak considering Signal Beam is its best option and this won't even hit Amoonguss or Virizion for super effective damage due to secondary typing. It also has to pick whether it wants to break Gligar or break Rhyperior, which is something Heliolisk doesn't really have to do thanks to Surf. Jolteon will also have some issues with the bulkier Steel-types in Bronzong and Registeel, though their lack of reliable recovery will help. It's a solid wallbreaker, but I think Jolteon will see the most use as a powerful late-game cleaner thanks to its amazing base 130 Speed and solid base 110 Special Attack. I still believe Heliolisk will be preferred as more of a wallbreaking Electric-type due to the better coverage and it only has one point less in Special Attack (base 109)

Froslass Suspect: To say the very least, I believe it deserves to be looked at. While I haven't played with it much since Milotic moved up, she has a lot of things going for her. Sure, you can expect Froslass to lead, but unless you have priority Taunt, it's still getting up at least one layer, sans multi-hit moves from Cinccino or Rhyperior, the latter of which still has to be careful with Destiny Bond. Yes, Defog is a thing, but name me a single Defog user that can avoid Taunt, take out Froslass, and outspeed her. Answer? None. Fact of the matter is every single Defog user in the tier is slower than Froslass, meaning she can Taunt them and force them to take her out as she D-Bonds. As if this weren't bad enough, Ice Beam is doing serious damage to most users of the move as most Defoggers are Flying-types (Shiftry is Grass) The only notable one that isn't is Skuntank... who is outsped and can be D-Bonded. At the moment, I'm kinda leaning toward getting rid of it as I feel it does restrict teambuilding a bit, especially for defensive teams. That said, Froslass does make Spike stacking teams a hell of a lot more viable than they would be otherwise, so I think the final judgment will come down to this: whether or not Froslass makes Spike stacking teams viable enough without being too difficult to handle for certain team archetypes. Remember, in an ideal tier (which is what we try to make last time I checked) every playstyle should be viable and not held back by a singular threat.

 

[Jaiho]

Yeah, Jolteon is a really cool drop. Its got a sweet speed tier, so it revenge a lot shit. I look forward to using it at some point.

As for Froslass, I haven't fought too many of them, so I am still somewhat on the fence. However, I am leaning towards it not being broken right now. Froslass is obviously a very good 'mon, and it is difficult to defeat straight up. However, it can be played around, since it is forced to make 50/50s every turn. Also, if one is forcing Froslass to go for either Dbond of taunt, Froslass isn't achieving its purpose of setting up spikes. Froslass also faces *some* competition from Shuckle on offensive teams, since sticky web is such a good move, and rocks are never bad either. The new drop Jolteon helps against it too, since its speed tier means it can outspeed and hit it with a specs volt switch or shadow ball or something. Cinccinno and Rhyperior force Froslass to resrict itself to 1 layer or sack itself, as do scarfers. Hazards are far easier to get off the field than ever before, and while most hazard removers lose 1v1 vs. Froslass, they can always do the same thing later in the game. Just like no one tries to clean hazards in Deo-D's face, no one should try here. IMO Froslass should stay in RU, because I feel it is manageable. However, that may change over the course of the test.

 

[Evilfaic]

I'll definitely test Jolteon out, as it's a Pokemon I've used many times in BW OU and XY UU. So far it's would-be position on my team is occupied by Rotom-Mow, but I'll test both versions of the team. Jolteon has a nice place in RU, and I can see it being a top contender down here, what with that Speed tier.

My opinions on Froslass are mixed. The times I have run into it, it wasn't very effective. The only thing I see it doing is stacking Spikes and Thunder Waving stuff. After that it may kill something or just die. Really, I don't see it going up.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Ok, guess I'll give my thoughts on things:

Jolteon drop: This is really fucking necessary. The only offensive Electric-types we had were Heliolisk, Rotom-C, Magneton, and lolEvire. Considering that Rotom-C is almost strictly a revenge killer while Magneton is primarily a wallbreaker, the need for another fast Electric-type was high. Jolteon fills this well without being too powerful for RU. It's a fantastic fit imo. It lacks the coverage of Heliolisk, but does cool shit like outpace Cinccino, Swellow, Sceptile, and Durant (without the need for a Speed tie) while also being a badass and outpacing Adamant Choice Scarf Braviary.... NATURALLY. Its coverage is kinda weak considering Signal Beam is its best option and this won't even hit Amoonguss or Virizion for super effective damage due to secondary typing. It also has to pick whether it wants to break Gligar or break Rhyperior, which is something Heliolisk doesn't really have to do thanks to Surf. Jolteon will also have some issues with the bulkier Steel-types in Bronzong and Registeel, though their lack of reliable recovery will help. It's a solid wallbreaker, but I think Jolteon will see the most use as a powerful late-game cleaner thanks to its amazing base 130 Speed and solid base 110 Special Attack. I still believe Heliolisk will be preferred as more of a wallbreaking Electric-type due to the better coverage and it only has one point less in Special Attack (base 109)

Froslass Suspect: To say the very least, I believe it deserves to be looked at. While I haven't played with it much since Milotic moved up, she has a lot of things going for her. Sure, you can expect Froslass to lead, but unless you have priority Taunt, it's still getting up at least one layer, sans multi-hit moves from Cinccino or Rhyperior, the latter of which still has to be careful with Destiny Bond. Yes, Defog is a thing, but name me a single Defog user that can avoid Taunt, take out Froslass, and outspeed her. Answer? None. Fact of the matter is every single Defog user in the tier is slower than Froslass, meaning she can Taunt them and force them to take her out as she D-Bonds. As if this weren't bad enough, Ice Beam is doing serious damage to most users of the move as most Defoggers are Flying-types (Shiftry is Grass) The only notable one that isn't is Skuntank... who is outsped and can be D-Bonded. At the moment, I'm kinda leaning toward getting rid of it as I feel it does restrict teambuilding a bit, especially for defensive teams. That said, Froslass does make Spike stacking teams a hell of a lot more viable than they would be otherwise, so I think the final judgment will come down to this: whether or not Froslass makes Spike stacking teams viable enough without being too difficult to handle for certain team archetypes. Remember, in an ideal tier (which is what we try to make last time I checked) every playstyle should be viable and not held back by a singular threat.

You have to keep in mind you aren't gonna be throwing your defogger out as a lead most of the time. If using SR Gligar, you're gonna see that Froslass and know its gonna lead so you lead with an appropriate check/counter

 

[Mew2]

I just realized that E-vire nor Hitmonchan nor Claydol dropped to NU...

 

[phantom]

The main detrimental factor to Froslass is being completely one dimensional. Froslass brings almost no offensive pressure to its check/counters (or anything tbh), and its defenses are absolutely unusable.

What "checks and counters" are even talking about? Very few Pokemon can limit Froslass to one layer and the one Pokemon that can outspeed and KO it (Cinccino) is cock blocked by Froslass's #1 partner: SR SD Cobalion. There's also nothing stopping Froslass from coming in on something that can barely touch it or come in later when something else is setting up hazards to come in and lay Spikes later on in the match. You don't have to let Froslass die in the first few turns, this seems to be a common misconception with people who think it's not broken.

Along with this, Froslass' set up hazard, spikes, can be easily cleared by the plethora of bulky flying type defoggers, such as Golbat and Gligar.

The problem with those two is that Froslass can actually apply pressure to them with its STAB Ice Beam, something that you stated it cannot do. This is the issue with Froslass in general. It sets up Spikes very effectively and can screw with every Defog and Rapid Spin user by virtue of its standard set alone. You said the Froslass brings no offensive pressure, but that's 100% incorrect seeing as how it can actually smack all the common Defog users with its STAB attacks alone or just use Destiny Bond to stop them in the case of Skuntank.

Froslass has a variety of flaws on its own, being very prone to getting prio taunted by the likes of Liepard/Whimsicott

Liepard and Whimiscott are both 2HKOed by STAB Ice Beam and are outspeed. You might be able to prankster Taunt Froslass sure, but I don't think anyone enjoys playing at 6-5 at the start of the match.

weakness to common scarfers, and a general priority weakness.

The only common priority move it's weak to is Sucker Punch and it actually has to attack for it to work, which it won't be doing seeing as how it's setting up Spikes. Furthermore, I don't understand how "being weak to scarfers" is even an argument. Azelf and Tornadus could also be sniped by Scarfers and Azelf was very vulnerable to priority, but they both got quick banned.

Multi hit moves can also cost it any set up opportunity, which is why the likes of Rock Blast Rhyperior and Cincinno in general are around.

Cinccino is very easy to stop as I said before, and you're playing a gamble with Rhyperior. Froslass can just go for Destiny Bond on the predicted Rock Blast and take out Rhyperior, which paves the way for a multitude of Pokemon to sweep. By using Rhyperior as your sole Froslass check, you're running the risk of losing a very powerful tank in the process.

As for Froslass, I haven't fought too many of them, so I am still somewhat on the fence. However, I am leaning towards it not being broken right now. Froslass is obviously a very good 'mon, and it is difficult to defeat straight up. However, it can be played around, since it is forced to make 50/50s every turn.

I don't understand how forcing a 50/50 every turn makes it easy to play around. I also don't understand why that's proposed as a negative for Froslass? If anything, the fact that it does this is what makes it so ridiculous. This logic just doesn't make any sense. How can you come to the conclusion that it's easy to play around when you yourself say it forces 50/50s?

Froslass also faces *some* competition from Shuckle on offensive teams, since sticky web is such a good move, and rocks are never bad either.

This is incorrect. Shuckle can't spin block its own hazards; shuckle doesn't have offensive presence; shuckle doesn't have destiny bond; shuckle doesn't have taunt; shuckle doesn't outspeed the vast majority of the tier. No way does Froslass face any competition from it.


It's obvious I feel very strongly about Froslass and I've been bitching about it since RU first started, so I will be heavily scrutinizing anti-ban posts. What a lot of people fail to acknowledge is Froslass's pressure on more defensive teams. In those teams, you don't have ways to pressure Froslass offensively. Froslass can set up multiple layers of Spikes on your helpless wall and even snag a kill. Instead of people approaching this suspect linearly, how about we take into consideration that defensive teams do exist and that just because you can outspeed and KO Froslass with your Cinccino, that doesn't make it a balanced Pokemon. Let's look at how it influences teams on all different spectrums before we say that it isn't broken.

 

[RowDog]

It would be pretty bad if Jolteon got dragged back up to UU now that Manectric is OU, but until then it will be a good edition to RU.

 

[Mew2]

I don't understand how forcing a 50/50 every turn makes it easy to play around. I also don't understand why that's proposed as a negative for Froslass? If anything, the fact that it does this is what makes it so ridiculous. This logic just doesn't make any sense. How can you come to the conclusion that it's easy to play around when you yourself say it forces 50/50s?.

I guess he is a phychic and can read his opponent's mind making Froslass easy to play around with.

In a more serious note I have seen a lot of people compare Shuckle with Froslass. While both share similar roles (suicude lead) Shuckle does not have offensive pressure, taunt or base 110 speed. This, my any means, point that Shuckle is a bad pokemon, in fact, he is pretty underrated in my opinion but you can't compare it with Froslass.

 

[Turtleye]

Imo Froslass should get the banhammer but that is food for a different topic.

I'm surprised to see smeargle go to OU. Not that I have really used it, but I saw a lot less smeargle this gen then in BW2. It's main role, laying hazards, got even trickier to do since Defog is a thing now.
Medicham rising to OU isn't much surprising, MegaCham was a beast while it was allowed in UU and OU needs a new stronk mega since Luke and Kang are both banned.

Jolteon is pretty interesting. It is one of the fastest viable pokemon in the meta right, and because of that it can run specs to deal some damage. Also Volt Switch is pretty cool.

Jolteon learns Shadow Ball btw, so Bronzong loses to it and it can deal with Froslass if the latter doesnt get Cursed Body to work. :I