360 speed doesnt' seem to cut it anymore.

Tricky

Pokemon seem much more item dependent this gen.
I used to think anything over 300 speed was a speedy pokemon. But it seems 350+ is the norms nowadays. This came to me when I was trying to decide EVs for a certain Horsea I breed today.
Here were its IVs.
HP: 21
atk: 21
Def: 31
Sp.Atk: 26
Sp.Def: 21
Speed: 5

Now, I use the DP IV calucatuor on Serebii, so whetever that's the most accurate one other there or not, as far as I used it its been pretty good.
Okay.
So Kingdra, I want it to be a Rain Dancer to take advantage of Swift Swim.
At 5 IVs if I don't put any EVs into it it turns out to make 180 speed. Well after Rain Dance, it be 360 speed. That's great right? I don't need to put any EVs into it and use it for other stats.
Then my mind went to a certain quite popular pokemon this gen.
Weaviles. Choice Band weaviles to be exact. Jollys seem to be in fashion today, and that makes their max speed 383. Well, Weaviles kind of annoy me like that. So I'm like, bah! Weavile will outspeed me!

So I ended up deciding to bring over 62 EVs to speed to bring it to 195(390 speed w/ swift-rain) just so it be able to hit Weavile first.
Course I could have tried to breed a better Horsea with slightly better speed IV, but the rest of the stats imo are pretty decent.

I guess the above paragraphs don't really matter to those of you who more or less do netbattle than the actual game but that's the perceptive of one who primary spends time on the thing in my hand.

I need to look into some item-based moves. Might be able to find a good tech. in them to counter such an item-heavy environment. Knock-Off...how to get it to work without having to take a heavy hit...
Trick Room's out there. Haven't looked at it very much though.

Discuss.
About the increase in average speed and power of pokemon this generation and things you noticed about changes in the metagame so far.
 
I think most of the people here would just discard that Horsea and breed another; it's not that hard, especially if you read the newly-published Breeding Guide (it's linked to in this forum).

As for "increase in average speed," I'd say yes of course, but that'd owe much more to the advent of Choice Scarf (and the potential for much more egregious speed mispredictions than in previous gens) than to the evolution of Sneasel.
 
Choice scarf changes a hell lot of things. When you see a hera or medicham come in on something fast, say jolteon, you know somethings wrong.
 
Yeah, CS really messed with things. Personally, I don't really like using it, since I'd rather just hit hard and get out, but I'm realizing more and more that with CS, you can't rely on magic stat numbers anymore. I've considered using it just so I can keep up with all the other fast leads.
 
leafgreen386 said:
Yeah, CS really messed with things. Personally, I don't really like using it, since I'd rather just hit hard and get out, but I'm realizing more and more that with CS, you can't rely on magic stat numbers anymore. I've considered using it just so I can keep up with all the other fast leads.
Click to expand...

When you have to use Choice Scarf on a speedy Pokemon like Weavile just to out speed Pokemon you'd normally leave in the dust you know it's pretty messed up.
 
unless you want a Weavile to be able to beat other Weaviles. See? Speed races ac cured even in Adv, otherwise we wouldn't use Jolly Areodactyles.
 
Problem2 said:
unless you want a Weavile to be able to beat other Weaviles. See? Speed races ac cured even in Adv, otherwise we wouldn't use Jolly Areodactyles.
Click to expand...

Personally I use Jolly Aerodactyl just to outspeed Jolly Weavile, the same with my Timid Azelf, I only trained with enough Speed to outspeed Timid Gengar...

Because I don't want my Aerodactyl to speed race with Jolteons and Crobats ¬¬.
 
Choice Scarf is fun to use imo lol. You can always kill something before they realize what you're using.

ie- CSGarchomp vs 350spd Gengar or the same Garchomp vs SD Weavile

I love choice scarf because you can revenge kill alot easier since you have the element of surprise.
 
CS is a great item it actually adds some versatility to the game anyone who whines about it just makes themselves sound like a noob. god forbid the little metagame smogon created for itself is changed
 
just to tell you before D/P swift swim pokes needed 198 speed to outspeed the dragon dancers and all pokes exept ninjask and elektrode and if you wanne outspeed a CS herra then you will need 202 speed so don't know what you are talking about 190 speed but that never used to be enough

so to get it straight it used to be 198 and it becomes 202 ON ALL SWIFT SWIMMERS!!! don't forget.
else you will get problems!
 
I always used 207'ish on my Swift Swimmers/Chlorophyllers to outspeed others anyway. Meh, I don't care about CScarf, go whine about it, cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. Now you can't use your magic numbers anymore so come up with something new.
 
If it helps I've found the closest thing to a new magic number for speed is 230, it lets you beat neutral speed CS Garchomp after Agility.

Though any higher than that and you'll have nothing left on most of the pokemon who can't spare anymore for speed.

So yes CS does royally screw up most calculations now.
 
Just forget about magic stat numbers, in cases like these make sure the opponent doesn't expect CS/AG/CB/FS as much as you and you'll win.
 
I expect the environment will be defined into 5 speed tiers:

1) Slow tier: everything that is meant to wall, slow attackers and minimum agility/swift swim/rock polish users; <200 speed.

2) Lower intermediates: everything that is meant to just outrun the walls, includes faster speed setup pokemon; 200-269. (Breaks down into 2 subtiers 200-239 and 240-269).

3) Higher intermediates: everything meant to outrun the lower intermediate group, like choice band jolly Heracross and 270 dragon dancers, ranging to things that beat +nature base 100 pokemon; 270-333. (Breaks down into 2 subtiers 270-299 and 300-333).

4) Fast tier: your usual group of speed demons; 334-394 speed (and of course Ninjask).

5) Scarf tier: this is the interesting bit where Heatran will be the slowest at 379, then base 80 pokemon like Medicham at 388, Magmortor at 397, Heracross at 403, but most standard choice scarf users will be 405+. Every scarfchomp I have seen, except MrE's, is running maximum neutral speed at 454 after the scarf boost... Which is forcing me to run 304+ (456+) on my scarf Azelf - madness. Therefore, the standard range will probably be 396-462 (264-308] since jolly Ninjask is 460 max. I really can not see a good reason to be faster than that. I have also discussed the merits of scarf on Metagross, or anything with explosion that can be boosted to outrun the higher intermediate tier, so don't be too surprised by slower scarf pokemon.

magicalmaster2001 said:
Just forget about magic stat numbers, in cases like these make sure the opponent doesn't expect CS/AG/CB/FS as much as you and you'll win.
Click to expand...

Most magic numbers still count as much as before. Some just need a little bit of tweaking. For example, agility Metagross should be at least 202 to beat 403 choice scarf Heracross.
 
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