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Battle Bot Nessie123: An OTS VGC bot that topped the Reg M-C Bo3 ladder

Hi all,
I had two goals with this project. The first, is to create a tool that can further human understanding of fundamentally sound VGC play. The second, is to show that an engine can be built on a hobbyist budget, which can top the VGC OTS ladder.

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Ladder state on 2026-09-28, approximately 19:18 UTC.

Nessie is an engine, and a game analysis tool, for VGC Regulation M-C Open Team Sheet play. Its evaluator, a neural net, was trained on ~20 hours of self-play on my M4 Mac Mini, plus $120 of cloud-compute. It has approximately 1.5M parameters. The total number of self play games was approximately 375k. Hardware use for laddering sessions was one CPU core of the M4 Mac Mini, no GPU resources. The teams used the for laddering sessions that culminated in (briefly) taking the #1 spot were formed from the open team sheets from Baltimore Regional, all teams that went 6-2 or better, with some imputed Stat Points. The engine perceived itself to have a small disadvantage at team preview, on average (roughly 48-52).

Nessie is trained on a variant of the game where there is nearly no hidden information. Stat points are public information, and after the leads and reserves have been selected, they are made public to the opponent. A very crude harness allows it to play the ladder format, but it does not make the best use of hidden information.

Nessie's search begins with a double-oracle, seeded from a guess (produced by the net) of the most likely move of each side. For each choice joint action of each player, we branch on important chance events (rolls that can KO, crits, secondary effects, etc), and enumerate the possible outcomes, with their probabilities. We then evaluate these leaves, and sumproduct to get the cell value, then we solve the matrix game implied by these cells, to get equilibrium strategies for each player. We then deepen and refine this search by expanding and solving leaves of our root solve, ordered how much we expect solving them might change our root value, approximately the square of the chance we reach the leaf, multiplied by the entropy of the static eval of the leaf. The motivation here is that the KL-divergence of a the static eval, to the depth-1 search value, was observed to be approximately proportional to the entropy of the static eval. There's a little more to this search (we can also investigate some apparently-off-equilibrium moves if their regret is not high), but this is the key idea. Once we have a believed equilibrium, play just samples from it. Nessie makes no attempts to do exploitative play.

In many endgames (2v2 or less), Nessie can effectively solve the game, its search value consisting ~entirely of terminal nodes, and agreeing within ~0.5% or so of a strict solver (which enumerates every damage roll) that I wrote.

Nessie has many auxiliary heads, predicting things about the future state of the game. Future weather, terrain, which pokemon will deal how much damage to which other pokemon, the next moves of each player, how long each pokemon will survive, how long the game will last, how much entropy will collapse on the next turn, and so on. Half of Nessie's training games are played between teams of pokemon that have had their stats, ability, typing, moves, or items mutated. This creates a greater diversity in the data, and I think encourages smoothness in the nets learning. The self-play games are from search-guided play, so the labels are high quality. I credit these three choices with the sample efficiency of learning, however the tradeoff of search-play for training data is that producing the data is much more expensive.

Nessie is by no means a finished product, there are many areas of research that continue to yield playing strength gains.

I also made a tool, meant to be a template for the VGC equivalent of lichess analysis board and position editor, with an evaluation bar. This gives a visual demonstration of how Nessie thinks about a position. You can select moves for each side, choose the results of random outcomes, and analyse each position. I plan to eventually release this to the public, possibly a few days after the end of Regulation M-C, possibly sooner if the community is ready for them. I'm mindful of the adverse impact these tools could have on the integrity of the game, however I think their power as a teaching tool outweighs this concern. A dedicated person can build these tools for themselves or their friends today, so ignoring them is not a solution.

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Tools like this are the ultimate goal of the project, to help people learn to play better, and understand the game on a deeper level.

Nessie123 is current accepting challenges for VGC Bo3 M-C matches, it's playing with a team pool of size approximately 300.

I'm happy to answer any questions and respond to any concerns.
 
I understand how inescapable the advent of AI is and sure let's embrace technology and all that jazz, but I'll say the same thing to you and the other people who have little involvement in this community yet still choose to open the floodgates to what is literally a shitstorm of AI-dependent players: we never asked for these tools.

You all have absolutely no need to come here and ruin a perfectly fun hobby just because you feel you ought to boast about your recent technological achievements. I seriously fail to understand what kind of gratification can you get off optimizing your gameplay through machine input in a game that is casual at most for the average player, and worse yet to treat it with such urgency like freaking Pokemon Showdown needed to keep up with the latest tech advances.

We mocked the hell out Mazar less than 10 years ago for using a bot that infiltrated games, but we are celebrating this for some reason and even hosting showcase events with players. The fact that mods are taking little action towards this is also a bit lame. People are praying you guys don't open source this, but this is the 3rd account with little to no engagement to this community that posts a bot like this in the past week BTW. What the hell are we doing???????
 
As an active VGC player who is somewhat aware of the history of what engines did to the game of Chess, I think this is extremely cool. I like your focus on trying to leverage how chess players use bots to improve, and I think these will cause a net improvement in player skill level in time just as they did in Chess.

I worry about the implications of this kind of tech for online ladders or tournaments, as I believe this will always be way harder to detect than chess, but the genie is out of the bottle. Lots of people are figuring out how to make these bots and people will get their hands on it. It’s going to be hard to figure out, and I think these should be detected and banned when possible in online play if people are just playing the bot moves. Trying to ban the creation of them simply will not work.

The coolest thing in my opinion though about Pokemon, unlike Chess, is these bots will always be able to be beaten because the game is predictive / simultaneous action.
 
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I'm mindful of the adverse impact these tools could have on the integrity of the game, however I think their power as a teaching tool outweighs this concern. A dedicated person can build these tools for themselves or their friends today, so ignoring them is not a solution.

we need to be able to identify these ladder bots and ban them in some way at this point, if nothing else to at least slow down their learning processs. This type of absolute larp about 'i care about this as a teaching tool' is completely ridiculous, youre just having fun with your coding project
 
As a chess player I greatly look forward to the prospects of the analysis tool you're working on here, I think it's a natural progression for the playerbase to understand the game at a certain level. There's going to be a lot of pushback from people paranoid about bots "ruining ladder" but that's something smogon and PS admin and moderation needs to handle and shouldn't discourage the development of these tools. This is part of the future of the game just as much as champions is and it's time for smogon to accdpt that and adapt.
 
It does feel like between the rumored elimination of turn-based battling in Gen 10, a lack of custom gamerules support in Champions, and now with these bots potentially invalidating online play, the future of Online Competitive Pokemon increasingly looks bleaker. Like I said to the other guy today, I admire your restraint in not open-sourcing a tool like this. But I can only assume that one day either someone will just release it to the public, turn it into a paid service or the technology and means to do this becomes so easy and accessible that everyone could obtain it with ease anyway.

That being said, I think there are a lot of cool things you could do with technology like this incorporated into a website for example. One of the most annoying things about picking up new teams in VGC compared to Singles formats is having to learn leads for all different kinds of matchups. It's tedious and takes a long time. That's why some players gatekeep EV spreads and even charge real money for RMTs, because those matchup guides are so valuable. If there was a website where you could insert your pokepaste and it would run an algorithm to suggest good leads against common teams in the meta (such as teams that top-cut regionals for example), that would be really good revision for offline tournaments. Obviously I wouldn't want it to actually play the game for you, you might as well make it open-source at that point, but being able to assist with prepwork before local events by giving team-specific advice for matchups like Perish Trap, Rain, Trick Room etc, would be really useful.

Another thing that might be helpful is if it could suggest EV spreads for your team members that might help in certain matchups, based on speed tiers, what Pokemon your team is weak to, important damage thresholds and other factors like do you have Tailwind support or not. Someone who went to the Smogdex right now and just grabbed one of their Sylveon spreads for example, would have no idea that those spreads have Speed investment specifically designed to be used with Tailwind and are sub-optimal without it. Maybe your team has a big Charizard-Y weakness, but by giving a specific Pokemon a little extra SpDef you can make it live Heat Wave and improve your options significantly. This might be more pie in the sky but I'm sure it is possible.

Just to be clear, I'm not an AI shill, I would prefer this didn't exist at all. But if it does exist, I would like to see it used benevolently in a way that actually helps people by making non-game factors like prepwork more streamlined and less tedious. It's not like people aren't asking for help with this stuff already after all, they're just doing it with their friend groups, discord servers, and paywalled Team Reports. Democratisation of information breaking the power of cliques is, I think a good thing for the game. At the very least, you won't see people on twitter trying to charge $1000 to join a discord server.

Of course, for a lot of people the prep is where a lot of enjoyment in Pokemon is derived from. For me stuff like teambuilding and rigorous calcing to make precise artisinal EV spreads is not engaging, I am much more interested in the psychology of the game and in-the-moment gameplay decisions you have to make. It shouldn't really surprise anyone that a top Randbats player is in favour of tools that would shift the emphasis away from prepwork and more towards gameplay choices, it's kinda our whole thing. But I know my preferences are not the same as everyone else and other opinions on the topic have value and should be considered.

Would love to hear your thoughts nessie_dev
 
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I truly do like the direction this could go in since i have played a good amount of chess in the past as well. There are far too many positives that it could lead to in a perfect world, most significantly making high-quality games reach astounding levels. However, when public tools such as the eval bar are thrown into the equation, it definitely makes me scared about how this entire community functions as a whole now. While it is easy to say moderation needs to handle this, it is quite hard to actually find a way to do so without sacrificing a lot of the values this tour historically holds. In theory, it is FAR easier to cheat in a game like pokemon because 1 the "best move" is often a collection of moves that you could make, and 2 this kind of move is often very findable from a player's perspective, something that isn't always the case in chess. A point that you could make is that if there is no best move, then bots can never completely dwarf humans. And that is EXACTLY the problem. There is no differentiation between the skill of an individual player anymore, because everyone can see what their best options are and just click them. Maybe you can make them screen share their game, but they can just use another device. There is very little that we actually have in terms of power over bots, which is not the case in chess. There, the bots are so outrageously good that its very obvious, here that is absolutely not the case. Chess also has all of its most prized tournaments IRL, something we don't have the funding or recognition to do even if it solves every single problem. So, unless we want every single player to be a clone of each other, we need to find a way to make sure we can handle the bots BEFORE we actually develop public tools. This is my message to all of the people developing PS bots: I am not completely against you, but I think you need to understand that the moderation team needs more time to sort it out. If they find a way to keep everything in check. I am sure that you will get enough support. Thank you guys so much for not open-sourcing yet.

Moderation team, PLEASE lock in or else Smogon is dead. What happens next is directly dependent on how you guys handle what's coming.


A very obvious question here is what if they can't find a way? That's actually what I think is the most likely because like what can you do to stop bots. Easy, just BAN THEM. We already have 1000s of games where a bot can solve everything for you, there is no need to ruin our game with them. I would hope that the moderation team reads this and takes down the bots until we actually have a solution, and if we never find one then so be it. Ruining the integrity of the game is not worth proving the power of computers, we already know what they can do.
 
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This is really cool. I had a few questions after reading through the post:

First, how is the neural evaluator actually trained from the search-guided self-play games? Are the equilibrium strategies produced by search used directly as policy targets, somewhat like AlphaZero using MCTS targets, with game outcomes used for value training? Or is the training objective structured differently?

I'm also curious about the double-oracle search itself. After solving the current restricted matrix game, how do you search for new candidate / best-response joint actions to add, and what determines when the double-oracle procedure has gone far enough to stop?

The selective deepening part was especially interesting to me. How much does it improve playing strength compared with stopping after the initial root matrix solve? Have you compared the reach-probability Ă— entropy priority against simpler alternatives such as fixed-depth search or expanding mainly by reach probability? mikumiku37 seems to make almost the opposite tradeoff by doing a wider one-turn solve without deeper tree search, so I'm also curious about your thoughts on breadth vs. depth under a fixed inference budget.

The sample efficiency is probably the part that surprised me most. You mention only around 375k self-play games, while also using search-guided play, a large number of auxiliary heads, and mutations in half of the training games. Have you done any ablations on these components? Which of them seems to contribute the most to strength per training game?

On the mutations specifically, how did you settle on having them in 50% of training games? Did you ever see a point where more artificial Pokémon / set combinations helped generalization but started hurting performance or calibration on real VGC teams?

I was also curious about the compute budget. You mention roughly 20 hours of self-play on an M4 Mac Mini plus about $120 of cloud compute. What hardware did you use for the cloud portion, and roughly how was the workload split between the Mac and cloud runs? Do you have an approximate total wall-clock training time or self-play throughput?

One other thing I was wondering about is hidden information. Since Nessie is mostly trained in a near-perfect-information version of OTS, how difficult do you think it would be to extend the current search approach to a format with substantially more uncertainty? Would you solve the same matrix game across sampled possible worlds, or would the solver itself need to operate over beliefs / information sets?

And since you mention that Nessie makes no attempt to exploit opponents, did you ever experiment with adapting to an opponent across a Bo3 set? It seems like games 2 and 3 could potentially make use of tendencies observed in game 1.

Thanks for sharing this!
 
I worry about the implications of this kind of tech for online ladders or tournaments, as I believe this will always be way harder to detect than chess, but the genie is out of the bottle. Lots of people are figuring out how to make these bots and people will get their hands on it. It’s going to be hard to figure out, and I think these should be detected and banned when possible in online play if people are just playing the bot moves. Trying to ban the creation of them simply will not work.
I agree with this. Part of the reason I'm posting this today is so that the community has heads up that these tools are arriving, and they need to be prepared for people having access to these tools. I agree detection is difficult, particularly in the short term, and I think that anyone operating online competitions, official or unofficial, would be wise to think about how to address this.

we need to be able to identify these ladder bots and ban them in some way at this point, if nothing else to at least slow down their learning processs.
I have spoken a little with the other authors, and, for our approaches, no learning was done on ladder games, the bots got stronger through self-play, so banning them would not slow down their learning process.

However, banning or restricting bot play is a reasonable choice to make. My personal opinion is that bots should have a way to identify their account as a bot account, and that people playing on the ladder shout be able to opt-in/out of pairing against bots. I'm not saying my opinion counts for much, that decision should be made by the community, but there's my 2 cents.

That being said, I think there are a lot of cool things you could do with technology like this incorporated into a website for example. One of the most annoying things about picking up new teams in VGC compared to Singles formats is having to learn leads for all different kinds of matchups. It's tedious and takes a long time. That's why some players gatekeep EV spreads and even charge real money for RMTs, because those matchup guides are so valuable. If there was a website where you could insert your pokepaste and it would run an algorithm to suggest good leads against common teams in the meta (such as teams that top-cut regionals for example), that would be really good revision for offline tournaments. Obviously I wouldn't want it to actually play the game for you, you might as well make it open-source at that point, but being able to assist with prepwork before local events by giving team-specific advice for matchups like Perish Trap, Rain, Trick Room etc, would be really useful.
Tools like this are within reach. Increasing the availability of learning resources is one of my goals here.

I had a few questions after reading through the post:
I appreciate the technical interest and I'll do a more detailed public writeup in the future. All your questions are reasonable, I'm just staying relatively light on the details for now, so that the community has time to digest and react to this, before we see a bunch of replications.

For the avoidance of doubt, Shao and I were not aware of each others efforts, and our projects are not related. The news of the last 24 hours suggests that many possible approaches are viable here, in terms of machines achieving elite play.
 
Although i think this project is impressive as a technical demonstration of what an AI can accomplish, i honestly don't think it's a good idea to release these tools to the public, at least not in a way that can be actually implemented for an actual game in Showdown, because it feels like you are blurring the barrier between a player and a machine, which undermines the entire point of creating a simulator and a community for a competitive game. What's the point of playing if you don't even know if you are facing a real human being or just a bot that takes decisions based on patterns?
 
sorry if this sounds harsh, but when will enough be enough for you ai people? you guys have already completely taken over everyday life, and your world has seemingly infinite access to money and resources. so genuinely, why do you have to go around ruining people's hobbies? what do you get out of it?

i understand that this isn't a very productive comment, since no matter if people actually want this stuff or not you guys are gonna keep railroading your technology through everything. just really hoping the mods can figure out how to stop this.
 
A quick point that I would like to add.

People such as you, the developer, are very talented people. You guys prove this with the bots and stuff that you guys are making. Why then are you putting effort behind a community that for the most part doesn't even acknowledge your efforts? More often than not, the people here want AI to stay OUT of pokemon, so despite all the time and resources you guys put in, you will still seem like the bad guy here. There are people constantly hoping that you guys' bots DON'T work properly, and it is a shame that you guys are coming here of all places as a result. Why not go after other genres or games, where people actually might respect the effort you guys put in?
 
A quick point that I would like to add.

People such as you, the developer, are very talented people. You guys prove this with the bots and stuff that you guys are making. Why then are you putting effort behind a community that for the most part doesn't even acknowledge your efforts? More often than not, the people here want AI to stay OUT of pokemon, so despite all the time and resources you guys put in, you will still seem like the bad guy here. There are people constantly hoping that you guys' bots DON'T work properly, and it is a shame that you guys are coming here of all places as a result. Why not go after other genres or games, where people actually might respect the effort you guys put in?

you realize the average pokemon showdown player never posts on smogon forums

no one tries to do this without already being very interested

in fact i would say it is pretty much impossible for anyone that has never played competitive pokemon to construct a bot that can play at any reasonable level even with assistance from a frontier model, there are a lot of gaps only your own experience can fill in

they arent coming from nowhere, they were already here to begin with and just didn't have anything to say previously; now they feel like they have something interesting to share
 
you realize the average pokemon showdown player never posts on smogon forums

no one tries to do this without already being very interested

in fact i would say it is pretty much impossible for anyone that has never played competitive pokemon to construct a bot that can play at any reasonable level even with assistance from a frontier model, there are a lot of gaps only your own experience can fill in

they arent coming from nowhere, they were already here to begin with and just didn't have anything to say previously; now they feel like they have something interesting to share
I feel like this reply completely misses my point. I was trying to say that anyone who tries to create bots does not receive the respect they deserve for working so hard. When did I say that this was an "average pokemon showdown player" or that they "weren't interested"? I implied the polar opposite, where I said that they put in a lot of effort, time, and resources already. I am just saying that it isn't a positive thing for either side here, where the creator of the bot doesn't get the respect they deserve for making tools which are objectively special AND the community for the most part would much rather that the people making the bots don't focus their attention on Smogon. If we don't want it, why does one have to force us through it? All the AI developers become the bad guy as a result as well, and I don't think thats what they want either. Basically just yeah we don't want the next super awesome AI tools that will make the Human vs Human game a Bot vs Bot game.
 
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I feel like this reply completely misses my point. I was trying to say that anyone who tries to create bots does not receive the respect they deserve for working so hard. When did I say that this was an "average pokemon showdown player" or that they "weren't interested"? I implied the polar opposite, where I said that they put in a lot of effort, time, and resources already. I am just saying that it isn't a positive thing for either side here, where the creator of the bot doesn't get the respect they deserve for making tools which are objectively special AND the community for the most part would much rather that the people making the bots don't focus their attention on Smogon. If we don't want it, why does one have to force us through it? All the AI developers become the bad guy as a result as well, and I don't think thats what they want either.
they are doing this because they are interested in machine learning and they like pokemon

they do not like other games as much as they like pokemon

you are treating 'ai developers' and 'pokemon players' as two separate groups when the former is essentially a subset of the latter

what do you think CS grads today grew up playing

E: it's much, much better for all of us if progress is being posted openly here while the src and weights stay private. better the devil you know, and all that
 
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Why then are you putting effort behind a community that for the most part doesn't even acknowledge your efforts?
Why not go after other genres or games, where people actually might respect the effort you guys put in?
I love competitive pokemon. These tools are coming whether I release them or not. There is no world, a year from now, where these tools are not available to the general public. The community needs to be prepared for that.

I built these tools because I want people to be able to analyse their games objectively. Other games (chess, poker) have gone through revolutions where game-playing engines surpassed human play. In each case their use had to be disallowed in human play, but the insights from these tools raised the quality of play and understanding of the players. Both of these games have had cheating scandals, but both are still thriving.

I care about advancing human understanding of competitive pokemon, and I also care about the community having enough time to figure out how they want to regulate the use of these tools. I don't know yet whether any of the published bots really qualify as surpassing human play, but I can tell you that we're at most a few months away from that becoming clear.
 
I love competitive pokemon. These tools are coming whether I release them or not. There is no world, a year from now, where these tools are not available to the general public. The community needs to be prepared for that.

I built these tools because I want people to be able to analyse their games objectively. Other games (chess, poker) have gone through revolutions where game-playing engines surpassed human play. In each case their use had to be disallowed in human play, but the insights from these tools raised the quality of play and understanding of the players. Both of these games have had cheating scandals, but both are still thriving.

I care about advancing human understanding of competitive pokemon, and I also care about the community having enough time to figure out how they want to regulate the use of these tools. I don't know yet whether any of the published bots really qualify as surpassing human play, but I can tell you that we're at most a few months away from that becoming clear.

For what it's worth, Pokemon has a problem here that chess does not (I can't speak as to poker, I don't play it):

Perfect play is not suspicious.

Playing a line that is sound and reasonable given the equilibrium is the expectation for any mid-high tier player. It is however very easy to slip under time pressure, and a tool like this when used to cheat would largely remove that possibility from the game.

Stockfish does not play like Magnus Carlsen, while a strong bot will play indistinguishably from a strong human. This presents an intractable moderation issue.

Personally, I think you should hold off on releasing tools as long as possible. It's not a solution at all and someone will eventually break the taboo (I believe open-sheets formats have a couple of months at best; standard constructed metagames maybe six months; draft might survive the year), but maybe a solution we haven't thought of emerges with time.
 
I built these tools because I want people to be able to analyse their games objectively. Other games (chess, poker) have gone through revolutions where game-playing engines surpassed human play. In each case their use had to be disallowed in human play, but the insights from these tools raised the quality of play and understanding of the players. Both of these games have had cheating scandals, but both are still thriving.
Thank you for your response. The issue is that competitve pokemon, at least Smogon, is entirely based online. Chess and Poker both have one thing in common: they have a IRL outlet. They have a way to remove anonymity, meaning that cheating becomes very difficult to pull off there. This is why all of the biggest Chess as well as Poker tournaments are all IRL. Smogon, on the other hand, is entirely built on the idea that there is anonymity. In general, this has lead to people going to absolute extremes even if there is no gain from doing so. I agree with you and your take, but only from a VGC perspective. Bots such as nessie will improve the quality of VGC tournaments, and there is absolutely zero doubt about that. In the creation of these bots, you do destroy an entire community of pretty much the entire 6v6 community, because cheating is not only very difficult to distinguish but also to track online. As for online tournaments, even chess doesn't have many of despite it being far easier to know if someone is cheating in chess or in pokemon. Now if you compared it with Smogon tournaments, where you can play the whole thing without anyone knowing who you are or what you do, it becomes extremely easy to just cheat to win.
There should be a clear line drawn here. Smogon and VGC are two different communities. The VGC community likely improves with the bots (and therefore VGC bots are a positive) while Smogon really doesn't improve from them, and in fact completely collapses. I think that this distinction should be made clear before we further discuss these topics.

For what its worth, I am extremely grateful that you are holding back further advancements and giving the people time to think. Hopefully you aren't taking my messages offensively, as they aren't intended with that purpose.
 
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For what it's worth, Pokemon has a problem here that chess does not (I can't speak as to poker, I don't play it):

Perfect play is not suspicious.

Playing a line that is sound and reasonable given the equilibrium is the expectation for any mid-high tier player.
As these tools advance, their opinions will converge, and they'll have similar opinions of what equilibrium play is. Even elite players are not going to play inside-equilibrium-support more than ~80-90% of the time, and even when they play inside-equilibrium-support, they're not going to mix with the same frequencies as the bot suggests. I think looking at any one game and saying someone used outside assistance is never going to be feasible, but I think statistical analysis of many games of a player will be able to tell you, with high likelihood, who is consulting a bot. In endgames, my bot can often effectively solve the game, and even measure how large a blunder any off-equilibrium play is. High ladder opponents still regularly make endgame blunders, and a total lack of them is suspicious.

FWIW the same is true both in chess and poker. In all but the most outrageous cases, you cannot tell engines were used in a single chess game, but collections of games can give a statistical signature. It's even more true in poker.

Smogon, on the other hand, is entirely built on the idea that there is anonymity. In general, this has lead to people going to absolute extremes even if there is no gain from doing so. I agree with you and your take, but only from a VGC perspective. AI will improve the quality of VGC tournaments, and there is absolutely zero doubt about that. In the creation of these bots, you do destroy an entire community of pretty much the entire 6v6 community, because cheating is not only very difficult to distinguish but also to track online
I intentionally chose VGC for this particular reason. I don't think detection is as hopeless as you seem to think it is.

For what its worth, I am extremely grateful that you are holding back further advancements and giving the people time to think. Hopefully you aren't taking my messages offensively, as they aren't intended with that purpose.
I'm happy to engage with you in good faith about how the community should react to the advent of these tools. I would ask that you lower the temperate a little bit with respect to statements like "In the creation of these bots, you do destroy an entire community of pretty much the entire 6v6 community". I think that statement is both inaccurate as to the outcome of the creation of these bots, and personalised/pointed towards me as an individual. I am doing what I can to help the community take the advent of these tools seriously.

People airing their legitimate concern about the integrity of the game is totally reasonable, but I'm trying to engage with the people who are looking for solutions.
 
As these tools advance, their opinions will converge, and they'll have similar opinions of what equilibrium play is. Even elite players are not going to play inside-equilibrium-support more than ~80-90% of the time, and even when they play inside-equilibrium-support, they're not going to mix with the same frequencies as the bot suggests. I think looking at any one game and saying someone used outside assistance is never going to be feasible, but I think statistical analysis of many games of a player will be able to tell you, with high likelihood, who is consulting a bot. In endgames, my bot can often effectively solve the game, and even measure how large a blunder any off-equilibrium play is. High ladder opponents still regularly make endgame blunders, and a total lack of them is suspicious.

FWIW the same is true both in chess and poker. In all but the most outrageous cases, you cannot tell engines were used in a single chess game, but collections of games can give a statistical signature. It's even more true in poker.


I intentionally chose VGC for this particular reason. I don't think detection is as hopeless as you seem to think it is.


I'm happy to engage with you in good faith about how the community should react to the advent of these tools. I would ask that you lower the temperate a little bit with respect to statements like "In the creation of these bots, you do destroy an entire community of pretty much the entire 6v6 community". I think that statement is both inaccurate as to the outcome of the creation of these bots, and personalised/pointed towards me as an individual. I am doing what I can to help the community take the advent of these tools seriously.

People airing their legitimate concern about the integrity of the game is totally reasonable, but I'm trying to engage with the people who are looking for solutions.

In the case of Timmy booted up a bot to play one game for him with top engine moves, he is detected 100% of the time playing chess and 0% of the time playing Pokemon.

I think the high rate of observed endgame blunders is characteristic of the Showdown VGC ladder being weak, and not of elite players as a whole. I don't have concrete evidence for this as I'm more interested in singles, but I found there that even an extremely weak policy, one that would lose >10% of its games to uniform random, was within equilibrium support >70% of the time when evaluated by a much stronger policy rolled out all the way to the end of the game. Seems to be the nature of simultaneous-turn games - almost every action is potentially justifiable, and it's rare to see one that objectively is not.

Obviously, if the top engine move is played consistently or the distribution played is exact, catching someone becomes plausible, if very difficult for the limited volunteer staff here.
 
I care about advancing human understanding of competitive pokemon
It's statements like these that I find preposterous. You care about advancing human understanding of a... children's game. Competitive pokemon does not warrant such grandiose, and you are not helping anybody. This is merely your playground to showcase your toys. Don't be coy dropping the bomb and backpedaling with the "oh but I'm just warning people about the dangers"

There is no understanding to be had if it's machines that will play the game for me. Why would I care about engaging in a hobby that's become completely automatized and optimized without my input. Granted, I'm well aware it is still a while for that to happen, but it's people like you who are planting the seeds for this hobby to be completely ruined.

I don't like AI, but I've made peace with the fact it's gonna be shoved down our throats whether we want it or not. Some other areas will surely benefit from it, but you really are ruining a perfectly fun hobby, and the people who are enabling this are no better.

Moderation team, there's cries of people who are already fearing the mass release of these tools to the point they are saying the upcoming SPL will be the last without AI. Stop enabling this. Don't host events with players playing against an AI bot for people to see. Don't let people post threads like these without any sort of supervision. There is little to be done if you just hand the stage willingly.
 
"upcoming SPL will be the last without AI"

if SPL players are willing and able to avoid using AI tools and ghosting currently they will remain willing and able to avoid AI tools in the future.

The barrier is not high.

Ridiculous fearmongering is not constructive.
 
In the case of Timmy booted up a bot to play one game for him with top engine moves, he is detected 100% of the time playing chess and 0% of the time playing Pokemon.
I agree there's a difference in difficulty of detection here, but I also feel the need to tell you that this statement about chess is simply not true.

I think the high rate of observed endgame blunders is characteristic of the Showdown VGC ladder being weak, and not of elite players as a whole. I don't have concrete evidence for this as I'm more interested in singles, but I found there that even an extremely weak policy, one that would lose >10% of its games to uniform random, was within equilibrium support >70% of the time when evaluated by a much stronger policy rolled out all the way to the end of the game. Seems to be the nature of simultaneous-turn games - almost every action is potentially justifiable, and it's rare to see one that objectively is not.
In doubles, you often have over 100 legal choices, often over 40 of these don't involve nearly-always-bad moves like attacking your partner, but the size of the equilibrium-supported set has a median value of 3. The equilibrium play is pure in around 31% of cases. It contains 5 of fewer options in ~92% of cases. I don't have numbers for singles, where you often have ~9 legal moves and maybe 3-4 will be supported, but on the other hand you get more turns per game in a singles game, so more data to be collected.
 
I agree there's a difference in difficulty of detection here, but I also feel the need to tell you that this statement about chess is simply not true.


In doubles, you often have over 100 legal choices, often over 40 of these don't involve nearly-always-bad moves like attacking your partner, but the size of the equilibrium-supported set has a median value of 3. The equilibrium play is pure in around 31% of cases. It contains 5 of fewer options in ~92% of cases. I don't have numbers for singles, where you often have ~9 legal moves and maybe 3-4 will be supported, but on the other hand you get more turns per game in a singles game, so more data to be collected.
I see, with those numbers it is in fact significantly easier to catch a cheater in doubles.

Your estimation is accurate for singles, ~8.4 average legal moves and ~3-5 are supported. A lot of the extra turns are however not very meaningful.

E: With regard to chess it very much is true, what? One game is more than enough to identify the average cheater taking no precautions - Stockfish is close to deterministic, cheaters don't take deep thinks in critical positions, engine "inaccuracies" are often correct simplifications for humans
 
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